Messages

391

Flipside Discussion / Re: Chapter 45: discussion

« on: March 02, 2016, 09:30:48 pm »

 

Ohhhh. Ew. I initially (having read part of Moby Dick, and all of the abridged version) thought you were referring to the incredibly dry prospect of hunting elusive prey. Or Platonic cave imagery. Or homerotic imagery.

Then an hour later I got the pun.

392

Flipside Discussion / Re: Chapter 45: discussion

« on: February 28, 2016, 02:25:33 pm »

Show of hands.

How many people think Moby is into Crest? How many think she's part of an even plot to turn Crest against Suspiria? How many think something else is going on besides option A or B?

I vote no on the getting laid end. Crest kinda reads the same as Tom from 500 days of summer. Too unrealistic "nice guy" without having grasped yet what it takes to actually be a decent guy.

393

Flipside Discussion / Re: Chapter 45: discussion

« on: February 28, 2016, 05:52:07 am »

The thing is, I have a different mentality about debate. Most people got on debate teams in college, and come across with the impression that debate is a fun activity and that the point is to win.

The reason I even enter debates is that I have stuff I want to figure out, so I test it out against other stuff until it either gets proven, revised, or disproven. The point is to learn, not to win. So I'd really say I try to discuss more than debate.

That said, I either win (to the extent that I see nobody after me giving a realistic argument) in which case I leave the thread in boredom only to find weeks later they are STILL talking about that, or I usually lose horribly in which case I can't seem to just disengage. The times when we're both right, and I come up with something new are rare, so I never am actually happy debating.

Debate is like war. Sometimes you win, sometimes the other guy. But as far as I'm concerned, nobody actually wins or understands each other as long as the two of you keep fighting.

394

Flipside Discussion / Re: Chapter 45: discussion

« on: February 27, 2016, 02:04:39 am »

I just want to point out that there is a forum section for debates, and that you should feel free to use it for this kind of thing.  You can have all the debates about politics and religion in there that you want.

It's also okay to talk about that kind of stuff in here when it relates to the current chapter.  But maybe try not to post pages and pages of stuff.

Sigh... Look, I don't even LIKE debate. It's exhausting, and I see my mom and dad having a heated argument everytime it happens. I don't have the whole mentality to stay detached from it.

The passage about the New Jerusalem resonates with me, so I dream of seeing and/or building a better world, and theorize as to how this would be. Debbie downer over here wants to spend four pages picking apart why that would not work in the real world. Okay, we get it, people are too self centered. Maybe I'm too idealistic. Maybe I'm also entitled to my dreams.

And maybe I don't like to see four pages of telling me that I'm an idiot. Can we keep this discussion and not debate, Daisuki?!? I do like to discuss things. I don't like to argue.

395

Flipside Discussion / Re: Chapter 45: discussion

« on: February 26, 2016, 07:34:04 pm »

I really loathe lengthy discussion on politics. I like religion. And the focus of my religion, is a better world than this one. It may not be possible now. But don't you think a better world, regardless of the model, is a thing worth aspiring to? If not, then we can end our discussion here, because you have missed the point. This world could be better, I firmly believe this, even if I have no fucking clue how to do so except I can't do it alone (I need someone to be able to work on the flaws of whatever idea, and make it work). But it currently isn't. 

I don't think Brion wants a religious discussion, and I don't want political factionalism (as far as I see it, both parties are selling horse crud), so we're gonna move on, mkay? Whatever, you win the debate, I don't care. But I do want this world to be better.

Instead, we're going to talk about parallels. Crest mentioned a similar locale for being taken on a date. I'm going to mention another one. Dark Goluth.

http://flipside.keenspot.com/comic/book0/fs01pg10.html

Obviously, this parallel is here to remind us of something similar in this situation. The question is, what? 

396

Flipside Discussion / Re: Chapter 45: discussion

« on: February 24, 2016, 01:37:34 pm »

Of course. I always base my thinking about life as I have experienced it. It may not be universally true, but the ideal is based on thinking that "seriously, this needs to be fixed." You ignore my vision as a false vision, but this isn't the case. I am telling you what the world could be, if people who had their stuff together helped to make it so. I don't need disillusioning about what the world is, I know what a crapsack place it is. Do I know everything that can be done to improve the world? No, I only know my perspective, and that of those who have shared theirs.

I'm not going to go into great depth, because frankly I'm tired about talking about this, but I'll give you a bullet point. Please bear with me, and don't pick apart point by point. Some of these points are nonessential, as I am ADD, and tend to non sequitor.

• I have found that some of the biggest issues, frankly, is people wind up being bullied into jobs they hate. If the only reason you go to work is because you are afraid of being homeless, seriously, maybe you should just get in your car and drive away. Because that's a damned shitty reason to be working.
• Maybe I've been reading you wrong, but it sounds like you're advocating "people should just suck it up and do whatever job people have decided they belong in." Feel free to correct me on this. About that, I have had my family tell me over and over "you should be a computer programmer" because you're good at it. Ummmm, as a hobby, I like to game program, but major businesses use hard code (C++ rather than a game engine) which kinda draws the fun out of it (I like the artsy parts of it, making graphics and the plot). I do help family fix their stuff, but I would loathe doing nothing but it. Also, I should point out that while I like the artistic side of this, I HATE MATH. Likewise, I have had alot of well-wishers try to push me into jobs over the years. It took alot of years to realize what I liked to do as a hobby wasn't necessarily what I want to be stuck at. At the library, I now am able to help people with the computer without being typecast. That's cool.
• Not only is this kinda stupid to have this trend, but it's dangerous. I have seen people who were given jobs they hated by their dad. What tends to happen is they try to do a bad job. In a major field, like medicine, however this means someone dies. Even in the food industry, fragments of metal, glass, rats, etc could mean a major problem to someone, all because one twit hated his job and was ashamed to speak up about it. Think about this scenario With me so far? Now, think about the shoddy quality of consumer goods. TVs, VCRs, clocks, whatever, all these things used to last alot longer, and people cared enough to repair them. Now consumer repair people are few and far between, and yet the price of goods is crazy. It continues to go up.
• I am basically not in favor of the suit and tie culture for job interviews. What we are thinking we are telling people is to have respect for the employer, and to have a professional image. What we are actually doing is practicing social stratification (you have to be rich enough to afford formal outfits to get a job that will pay the bills, begging the question why you need the job if you can afford expensive clothing), and teaching people to value image over accomplishment. I do advocate looking one's own personal best, but not creating a fixed uniform.
• From my experience, I grew up with a parent who was from that period. Who believed in such jobs, that conventional work was key to success. But I found that I was generally not happy even interviewing. I also found that the advice he would give me did not work. I wanted to be outside alot, and it showed. They could tell I wasn't comfortable, and no surprise, I wasn't hired. I'd get pushed into more interviews, and more, and more. Meanwhile, I was doing garden work and relatively happy if underemployed. But I'd balk everytime I was told "you need to go out and get more work." This from someone who hated formal jobs. And it didn't help me. The jobs I did get tended to be bottom-rung and almost a toxic atmosphere. So no, I have a very definite cause for seeing it differently from the "just suck it up and do the work, even if you hate it." You should like your job. If you don't what is the point of doing it? That's 10-40 years of your life lost.
• I didn't say "everyone gets a dream job." I meant "everyone ought to make a go at working for themselves." We don't need commercial or government interference on the job market. We need more entrepreneurs. A job is nothing more than doing something, and having someone pay you. I saw a movie last night (Not One Less) where little kids were moving bricks over 2 hours to pay for travel to the city. The construction worker had not employed them to do this, they just did, and begged money. The difference is more than semantic. Everyone getting a dream job sounds like there is a government handout. What I'm talking about is people getting off their asses, stop looking for others to solve their problems and find your passion. The people who don't want to do this, are welcome to try to impress some guy that isn't worth their time into hiring them. Even from conventional jobs, deciding whether you want to be a farmer or retailer, is a hell of a lot better than reading the paper and passively applying to what seems popular. You will be stopped on the first question, "why do you want this job?" (Answer: you don't, you are only using it to pay rent until something better comes along, then you'll quit suddenly)
•   Also, skills are developed, not innate. That's a misconception, we all can work to be at least average at a skill, and harder work can catch even someone without inborn skill (talent). In fact, people who start with talent tend to average out unless they also have a strong interest or drive, because they don't have to work at it. There isn't some inequity of skill. There are other inequities however, such as overpopulation of desired jobs, discrimination, and wealth and other advantages. But skill is what you work at.
• Culture is something that enriches a community by connecting people with their dreams. Let's use an example of two towns. One is a boring megacity. It has plenty of industrial centers, but they've gone the way of Detroit. They closed down, and now people don't know what to do. They expect to do retail stuff but... there is no income because their town is Boring McGeneric. No tourists visiting, bringing in new money, no money to repair old buildings. The town is dying. This is basically the mining town problem. On the other hand, I have an actual town to use as an example: Bisbee, AZ. It was a former copper town, but after it got kinda run down, the hippies and hipsters came in. Now it's an artsy town. It isn't super big, but it seems to have plenty of tourism, and this means cash flow. There are businesses, everything from wiccan shops, to ghost tours, to health food stores, coffee shops, this is a town that has culture. Another example: Cape May, NJ. Same deal, only it is even more wildly successful as a tourist center, and they have ALOT going on. Recessed business? Not a chance. People do what they want, and have things to do.
• Mincome sounds like a buzzword, but I'm gonna address a bigger issue. Well, two, really. The first is cost to live. This is a coined word, not an economic term. What I mean by that, is that when you have nothing, the difference between having nothing and having something is what it costs an employer to pay you minimum wage. The more deflated the economy, the more easily an employer can hire, making a difference between not having any income and having some income and having enough income. Higher minimum seems like it would be an easy fix, but it doesn't help the guy struggling to get hired. He needs an easy job, and one that is expendable if it isn't to the worker's taste, that won't make the employer try to prevent employees from doing their own stuff. This isn't to say I'm in favor of how conservatives like the pay system, but we don't need a higher minimum wage. We need more people paid ABOVE the minimum. Which comes to the second point, income must be able to keep up with housing, gas, and food. If these are priced out of range, we have what is called wage slavery. Wage slavery is when people ostensibly are making a ton of money, but when you break it down into food, clothing, shelter, and transportation, they are either breaking even or actually losing. If you are making enough for rent only after 3 weeks of work, you are scraping by, and definitely not meeting standards of living. This is criminal.

I think that was most of what I wanted to discuss. About that, anyway. Everything else I could say is just fluff. Aren't you glad I didn't go into great depth? 


I'm gonna blue this out so I can focus on points rather than trying to respond to an entirety.

I don't think feminism needs to be involved in discussions on nudity. I didn't need to involve it. People may choose to involve it, but it's not inherently a subset of feminism. As to the standard, it differs in places in Europe, Africa, and so on. I don't really care what people think about it...just get the government out and freedom in. Toplessness can then regulate itself according to the myriad varying personal demands of everyone. There is no one true solution. Except that to me the government is interfering, by deciding in some places that toplessness is sometimes bad and sometimes not bad, even though it's not in my opinion important enough to require the use of violence to control.

I would agree. The government needs to butt out, stop criminalizing "indecent" exposure, and let people wear whatever. The feminism comes in, as soon as we have men going around saying "well, she was naked so I raped her. Cuz she was asking for it." Any progress to nudism would butt heads with these assholes.

Lots of things are more "honest", but freedom should exceed this. A world where you have to rigidly obey violently-imposed universal standards that you neither agree with personally nor can be made to understand the importance of is not so great to me. Outside of contracts "dishonesty" is already the norm, and that's not changing any time soon. Trying to make it change would mean a police state the likes of which has never been known. It would be amazingly severe if it even mostly achieved its goal.

By honest, I mean that many of the lies our culture rests on (like shaming women for not looking like Barbie) get unfounded once nothing is left to the imagination. Yes, clothing freedom is essential. But this would also be a great tool to break social castes.  Hmmm, maybe that's why it's forbidden.

I don't know why you think they're "overthinking it". It seems like projection to me, based on your desire to normalize and desexualize their behavior. It's easy to explain it other ways, too. Short of asking them and gambling that they both know and tell you the absolute and complete truth there's no way to know. There's no reason to assume anything meaningfully negative from my perspective.

This is not even my opinion. I have read about nudist retreats/colonies, and what they personally believe. They usually have a distinctly non-romantic non-sexual outlook on nudity, the clothes are just clothes according to them, they go about business as usual. Here, I can even find examples.

http://www.justluxe.com/travel/luxury-vacations/feature-1915997.php


Sure, clothing, makeup, and many things relate to sexuality. It's not purely cultural, though. And it is possible that things may work more smoothly if clothing is the norm, for many reasons that would include non-sexual ones. I think you're really optimistic about the lack of downsides from a violently imposed nudist society. Besides that it really opens anything up to violent imposition, which is a dangerous precedent to set, since it WILL be abused even more than it already is if you go so far as to use it to enforce nudity, of all things.

And that's the point I was getting red in the face about above. Whether or not my idea of utopia could work (maybe not), the opposite is a dystopia, a world where people are shamed into doing jobs they hate. I believe the Matched series by Ally Condie has a good representation of society when people have no real choices. Shame is powerful motivator to make people do a number of violent impositions.

I really don't care about feminism's reasoning for things. It's often scatterbrained and itself full of shaming, including shaming those who shame without thinking it quite ironic (meaning that hypocrisy is fine as long as the target is defined as "bad"). Is being naked violent or otherwise costly to others, provided that you respect their personal space and property, including their homes and businesses? If not then don't enforce government violence to prevent it (but also don't subsidize it...this is violence against those who would not voluntarily do so).

If you feel shamed about it, we shouldn't talk about it. Feminism should be about equality, but I've run into a number of feminists that appear to like using shame tactics themselves.

I would not care nearly as much about being naked if the trade off was that I get to perpetually have a well above average body and face, such as Maytag does. It's a bit harder when your value is lower, and that's just life.

Value? Pffft. I currently work at the library with two other women. I'm trans as I say, about to go into surgery, but I like women. These two are sisters. The older one is married, so kinda off limits, but even so I've decided the one who interests me more is the younger sister. Unlike the older one, who is super tall and skinny, she's kinda short and plump. Do I see her as having less value? No. Not only is she adorable, but I really value our conversations, even if sometimes we don't agree. Because of this, even unmarried, the older sister naked would kinda be like "meh." The younger sister on the other hand, I think I'd be extremely interested in seeing her naked. What I meant by honesty, also extended here. One of the lies is the one you told here, to yourself. It's subconscious so you may not even be aware of it. It goes as follows:

People will reject me if they see how I look really.

Trust me when I say that this is NOT the case. The very first thing I noticed when I was transitioning and wearing women's clothing more often, was that contrary to my suspicion that everyone would notice and get offended, I saw that generally people either did not not notice, or actually pretended not to notice and were pretty easygoing about it. If you were naked in a setting where many people were naked, your real friends would treat you exactly the same, strangers would stare but it makes no difference because they would stare anyway. Not one person would bring up that your body type, whether short/tall, black/white/other, male/female/intersex, fat/skinny makes you less "valuable." The people who care about you would still be okay. And the rest aren't "valuable" enough to warrant consideration.

Also, I have seen alot of attractive women over the years. It seems to be more about region and culture than averages. As in, you think of average as median weight. The "average" woman is below that median, and I've seen everywhere from model thin (size 2ish), to what most men think of as average (8ish) to what actually is average (roughly 12 or 14).



These women here? All of them are technically average. All of them, in fact are likely to get dates. There is a rather wide average, and then outliers or overweight or underweight. Most do not even mind the outliers unless it looks like you have health issues. I was tall and superskinny (for the male average) for my entire high school, roughly 5'11" and 120lb. I wasn't starving myself, I just had fast metabolism. I like a size 8 about as much as a size 12. 30 is about when I worry for her health, but is she ugly? Less valuable? NO!!! Stop hating yourself.

In fact, the core of your dismissal to my image of what reality is and could be, is based on a different essential notion of what people and reality is and could be. You view stuff in terms of value. I see things, in terms of ranges, I have been fat as a child, then super skinny, now I'm about average. I have been everything from rich parents, to poor and out on my own, to making enough income to live independently, to making some but not enough to live independently. Everything is able to change, including society. Also, listen to this song.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIy3n2b7V9k

I have known people who later became at least marginally famous. A kid in my school became part of an indie band that produced a song called "Hooch" that I think was either covered or they changed their name (I think they were originally gonna call themselves Mulch but either they became Everything, or Everything covered their band).  So, who are we to say what your "value" is?

397

Flipside Discussion / Re: Chapter 45: discussion

« on: February 23, 2016, 08:09:36 am »

I know you don't believe me. But look around your area, with a different attitude. Not, "that'll never work," but "what if we..." Yes, some ideas won't work. But let's leave those after we've tried stuff.
Culture can either be enriched or depleted. In the latter case, opportunity is lost, and jobs become a matter of having an excess of labor (read: people who are only skilled at lifting boxes and simple tasks) and a dearth of real skills. A person who has real skill doesn't need another person to hire them. They can work for themselves. 

The anti-decadence with shaming is based on a faulty premise, that decadence is from a lack of guilt. It's not, it's due to a culture that leaves us with nothing to do. This is not because he haven't had enough fundamentalist priests tell us how sinful we are. It is because we have nothing to do to make ourselves useful, and we spend all of our time hanging out on video games, social networking, or attending parties. These are not evil things. But they are unproductive, compared to being employed at something that is a real craft.  I don't need to prove this. I've lived it. When I apply myself to video games, I feel like nothing is done. When I do art or writing, suddenly I'm doing something that can add to a community. The cure for decadence is not shame, it's doing something productive. That said, I think I'll spend a large portion of today playing Skyrim. 

Now, since I am really really tired of hitting the same brick wall with this (at this point we either agree, or we don't), we will move on to Regina. For real, this time. Really, let's move on to Regina.

Regina sorta reminds me of me, about ten years ago. I couldn't speak in public. I shut myself in my room. Nevermind popular jobs, I couldn't apply to any jobs. I was painfully shy. She is trying to emulate Maytag (who is a natural extrovert, unlike her), but you can tell she is still very modest. This entire sequence is funny because we have a pervert type interacting with like the world's shyest girl and she is attracted to this whole thing because she sees a world where her insecurities don't matter as much. I'm thinking about how this girl relates to all of this, and whether she could create a world where she could be more confident.

Don't tell me what I think choosing to go naked means. I already told you I think it should be legal to be naked in public (even though I mentioned that most people are ugly and on average more so when naked), so this is ridiculous. I simply think that being naked is not an act of violence, nor does it constitute significant harm to others. I mentioned freedom of association because limiting this causes significant harm, and wanted to make it clear that nudity could be legal without it becoming the norm to allow in homes and businesses. Ultimately it's not up to me how many people accept nudity in their homes and businesses. That's freedom for you. I would only have the choice of not visiting homes or businesses that allowed nudity IF it bothered me significantly enough for me to do so. Nudists, if numerous, would have homes and businesses that allowed them.

As for topless feminists...my view is not based on feminism in the least sense. And obviously if someone can legally go naked going topless would not be a problem. I guess you're assuming I'm getting an erection or getting wet when I see some "hot girl", or more likely assuming the former since you likely assumed me to be male just as you assumed a "hot girl" would be for me (I am a lesbian so you randomly got my gynephilia correct). I don't actually have anyone I like in person and don't expect to any time soon, but I would be wearing clothes anyway, since that would be allowed. The fact that being naked would stand out more while most people wore clothes is just how it is. I don't think that people wouldn't notice males' erections or females' severe wetness even if everyone was naked, though. I don't think the girls in the second picture are ashamed to be flashing their breasts. They certainly don't look that way. They seem to be having fun WHILE thinking that it's sexual, because sexuality is the reason that anyone is interested in their breasts anyway, and that's why they are specifically showing off their breasts.

     

You did? I have trouble wading through these long texts. The point, (I think) I'm making is that is the very average/ugly nature of regular people that this would be good. We have too many ads that are like "wear tons of makeup and the best clothes" trying to make girls like Regina who are already insecure even more so. If you look at a bunch of people, suddenly it's more honest. I know my body doesn't look great, but the rich white man, well, he has testicular warts. So maybe he's not as privileged as he tries to lord over people like. You stop worrying about people in a higher class than you, and realize when naked, we're all about the same. I think that's what Regina means by stronger, that she wouldn't feel so insecure about things. She could see people as they really are, rather than being hung up over the fact that she's too modest.

I think it also sounded like the focus was on, "but businesses would never allow it" rather than "we need to have the freedom to do it without making it a mandatory universal" which I also agree with. I also wouldn't like it forbidden anywhere, just kinda a choice like any other fashion choice. The idea of nude-only or nude-restricted spaces smacks of the same mentality that caused "whites only" restrooms.

The idea of toplessness stems from the whole idea that our society doesn't blink at this but acts downright horrified at this. As it is a double standard, it has more to do with feminism than nudism.

Aesthetically, I don't believe anyone, male or female objects to attractive women.  I think it's fine that you're lesbian. If I was born a woman, I could not see myself being into men (even when they're muscled out they're not attractive, and alot of men resemble fat hairy critters). Lastly, the point I was making were too, that (1) nudism is more honest, and (2) the women are having fun, but they look very much like they are overthinking it.

We're going to discuss #2. There was an old one-panel comic in like the 20s where a man was in a nudist colony, had attractive nude women around him. But he ignored them, and was looking at a clothed girl who had wind expose her panties. Besides being funny and ironic, the moral of this story is that the reason we are so sexualized is that we are hung up on our clothing, and think that without it, we are initiating sex. If we were ever without clothes for any length of time (it would have to be during the summer, nudism during the winter is a no-go) we would find that most of us were average, and the only sexual behavior had a necessary social component. The reason I say that this exposure of breasts is shame behavior is precisely because they give such a damn about it. I compare "Girls Gone Wild" with the topless feminism movement. There is a completely different mindset. The topless feminist views what she is wearing as "this shouldn't matter because men are allowed to go around with no shirt, it's just clothing." The Girls Gone Wild motif is more like the above picture. The problem with the latter is that it not only perpetuates a sort of female chauvinism, but the women in question are still fixated on how their bodies being naked is somehow different. They still are attached to the idea of needing clothing, seeing the loss of it as sexual, because they still have shame.

http://flipside.keenspot.com/comic.php?i=1327

http://flipside.keenspot.com/comic.php?i=1217
http://flipside.keenspot.com/comic.php?i=1219

May doesn't care if people see her naked, because she has no shame. Regina has shame, and see the difference in her attitude? For her, it is an issue, for Maytag it's really not.

398

Flipside Discussion / Re: Chapter 45: discussion

« on: February 22, 2016, 07:53:04 am »

One more comment, and then I'll totally move on to Regina (later on today).

Here's my take on it from my own life experiences. My first job was at 6, I was feeding cat food to kitties. I got maybe a few dollars of spending money. It was not minimum wage, but I had no real need for it. It was a quiet job and sorta fun for a kid. My second job, I was maybe 13 or 14 (it was under-the-table). I was helping a neighbor pull weeds and fix his house. I worked about 60 hours (over several weeks), and he shorted me, as at the time minimum was was maybe $5 or something. I wound up with $200 for my trouble, the math didn't add up and I've been slightly cynical about work since. I've done alot of gardening jobs where I worked maybe 3 hours a day, $10/hr, maybe 2-3 days a week. In other words, pfffft crappy wages. I had other job, some of which we on call and sucky hours, some of which were fulltime, some like Amazon were overtime. Some like Walmart were shifting schedule. Whenever I started to really hate my job, either my work would suck and I'd get fired, or I'd begin to work less hours for one reason or another (maybe I'd get sick, maybe the boss wouldn't need me, maybe I'd ask for more flexible schedule).

The point in all of this? We, as humans, take jobs based on what we think we deserve. I have also noticed that we tend to take lovers based on what we think we deserve (explaining why I'm still single). So, the natural progression of these suck jobs is that without a demand for them, people find other ways to do them. If people hate the tipping system, either waitresses start demanding real wages, or formal dining goes the way of the dodo. Likewise, if people are tired of fast food, the industry collapses, and there is only traditional restaurants. If people eat at home, we have neither. An industry only needs to exist if If people stopped depending of conventional farming, we would have hydroponics businesses. Or if we stopped liking other people making money from food, we'd all have home farms or labs where we grew our own food. Nature abhors a vacuum, and something fills the need. But no, the need as such is not fixed in stone (someone gets food to the public, someone grows food, someone delivers water and other necessities, but the method this happens is NOT fixed).  So no, there is never a need to do such jobs. We just convince ourselves that is what we are worth. It's a self-punishment.
I'm a librarian, because I like dealing with customers but I don't like selling people stuff. When I finally understood that I was better than these crappy jobs that were like SELL SELL SELL, I started being able to move towards even halfway decent work. Are there days when work sucks? Yes. But these are days when I realize that I've been feeling bad, and this reflects itself in the choices I make.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmN2RL4VJsE

You can take this guy with a great of salt, but effectively, positive thinking does impact outcome. So, when we feel ashamed about our job options, we only get drudge work with no option of promotion. You see alot of money, maybe, but like for Amazon, I was making tons of money, but other costs would eat it up. "Someone has to do these jobs" I used to think. If someone has to do them, why aren't they valued more? Truth is, they can automate many of the jobs, as I said before. This would leave many people out of a job, but this would leave more people time to think about their own businesses. Jobs that use creativity and the mind are valued more because you need an actual person making a decision. Grunt work is expendable.

It isn't just preference for a teller. The ATM can pull in and pull out money. It cannot license changes of name or address, approve loans, or decide ANYTHING, it cannot instruct people in the exchange rate of foreign currency, give stock advice, or whatever else a banker can do (my knowledge on that is limited). There are specific instances where you need someone caring at the other end, and this is where purely automated stuff loses out. A computer can do some of our work at the library like searching titles, cataloguing, and checking in and out. It cannot show people where the W2 form is. It can't help people with computers, or advise on resume writing. It can't help people log in to the right WiFi connection, or help them print their phone stuff to a copier. It can only do repetitive stuff.

The labor is freed up, yes. That labor can go on begging other employers for scraps only to have them say "hmmmm, based on your (previous service/criminal record/driving record/other stupid piece of paper), I can't hire you." Or the labor can say, "well I guess if we aren't good enough, we can walk to somewhere we we are good enough." When I have been self-employed, that wasn't an issue so much as making sure the work was good. And when I wrote a book, well, nobody ever bought it, but it was completely my own time. 

The organic farming is often done with a minimum of chemicals and pollution. Many of the organic farmers insist that diesel fuel gets absorbed by the crops and taints the flavor. Or pesticides, or other fumes. This is why it's more expensive, because it's done using alot of trained workers. The jobs I have worked at, they didn't have 500 acres of land plowed by big tanker tractors/sprayers/other stuff, they had alot of people that were weeding by hand, and it was very hard work.
Likewise, while some of mining can be done in 5 min using a digging machine, getting an intact vein of gems tends to be more of a skill than a mechanic. These are things that need expertise, otherwise you have nothing but tiny fragments, rather than a giant statue at the end waiting to be carved into an emerald woman (which you would get if you mined a vein out perfectly.

We don't need these untrained grunt jobs. We need for people to think hard about what they actually want. There is an oversupply in jobs, because people all head like sheep into the city, where they all compete for the same jobs. If you're a minister, for instance, many of them won't take jobs on the outskirts, so these churches struggle. But there are plenty of openings there. Want to work in a small town, and got IT experience? You can set up better network lines there, but *gasp* out in the boonies. Where you can, duh, order stuff online anyway.
 People aren't honest about what they really want. "I 'should' go out and get a conventional job. I 'should' commute to the city." Really, should you? Because it seems like the commute is killing you. Not that everyone is suited for the country either.
But if MSN News says "all the openings are now in nursing" everyone gets retrained as a nurse, where are there likely to be no openings? Nursing. If wewere instead to stop being ashamed of doing something more like us, suddenly, we would find our niche. Some would work at comic shops, some would work at burger and fry places because they like the whole fast food culture. But you wouldn't see this desperate job culture because people were there because they wanted it. If you've ever seen someone who loves their job, it's a whole different deal than the guy doing it for money, and I think you'd even see the difference.
 
I would also recommend the book ReWork. You're locked into a certain business mindset that is not really true.   

Now, about Regina... Looks like I'm out of time. Suffice it to say, the whole nudity issue is precisely because you view being naked as an invitation to sex. There is such a thing as topless feminists, people who see there as a double standard that guys can go shirtless but gals can't. Being nude, around other nude people means they see everything. That hot girl you're talking to? She knows you like her, if you know what I mean. If everyone was nude at a restaurant or even a majority of the people, they really would be blind to it.

http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1609417!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/article_970/nude12n-2-web.jpg

http://www.nickscipio.com/pod/media/2012/10/Church-flashers-Unorthodox.jpg

(Contains nudity. Because duh we're talking about nudity)

Compare picture 1 & 2. The first has a guy not giving two shits what others think, the second has a bunch of oversexualized girls flashing, when actually they are ashamed of baring all (because for them it is sexual).

"Weird bodies", huh? Pffft.

399

Flipside Discussion / Re: Chapter 45: discussion

« on: February 21, 2016, 04:59:46 am »

Judging what is and isn't a creative or fun job is about the least creative thing you can do. It's not to your taste, but this doesn't mean there aren't people who love to do it.

I'm going to stop right there. Where you say "the non-creative jobs someone has to do them." No one has to do them.

Long ago, car washing was a team project or at least hard work for someone. Then the automatic car wash was invented, and one person making their living collecting the coins. Ditto for a laundromat, one person's creative juices made individuals reasonably rich and free to do whatever in their own time. Not only are those workers laid off but the one guy who collects the coins has the rest of the day to write books, pursue hobbies, even work another part-time job. The same for the laundromat. Yes, dry cleaning has persisted but they are experts at dry cleaning, and eventually that too might be automated. On the other hand, library despite having autocheck scanners still have  staff. Banks despite having ATMs still have staff. Why?

One word: customer service. It is the one thing that a computer, short of being like Watson, cannot do
 And it is the one thing it shouldn't do. That job needs a personal touch, and will always need employees. Oh sure robots, but they always make the logical decision not the other ones.

The less creative a job, the more it is likely to have a genius type be like, "hey this job has no components other than the task (no customer service, no repair, and no sales or creative aspect) I can mechanize this whole thing pay my boss and run the company myself." That becomes a job freed up. Mining and farming both have large scale machines for the big commercial stuff. But they can't do organic farming. And they can't do gem mining without butchering the materials.

So no, we don't need uncreative soul-crushing jobs. For that matter, I don't need "that'll never work in the real world" or especially "that's not the way we've done it before." If the current plan is inefficient that is the thing that should be replaced. McDonald's is literally just the order. The entire thing, including the cooking could be mechanized, with just some guy running the automatic order system making sure it has no pickles.

I'm not going to drag this on. Because I'm obviously right. There are probably examples each of us could give about a structured vs unstructured world, but the major point is that it's a sorta balance. I would say you could indeed have a world like you described, but unless some people were a little more shameless, nobody would really be happy. I could also show a world like I described, but I'd concede there might be some less than perfect things unless people had a firm sense of boundaries.

So about Regina and her modesty-free nudist world, let's examine why that would or won't work? And what she means by being stronger. Is this about the 2nd dissolving test, or about Maytag?

Update: Pfffft. Funny we should mention stuff like this. Today my dad gave me a "not in that outfit" lecture. Apparently something I was wearing was rather short.

400

Flipside Discussion / Re: Chapter 45: discussion

« on: February 20, 2016, 03:44:54 am »

Urgh supermegablock. I kinda got lost in parentheses so for now since I goto work, I will only respond to part of it.

You're obviously from the city. There are people who love all kinds of things. I for years worked on either a farm or garden. Why? I disliked the whole stifling bustle of the city, the urge to make ends meet doing alot of jobs that sat you in the back of an office. Farming was something where you could see the impact of what you did and felt connected to the land. I eventually burnt out in the loneliness and crummy wage, but it still help family out with yard work, and now work at a library. It was a job that I never thought I'd be doing but sorta landed upon with the sense that I also got annoyed between the highly seasonal nature of the job. I guess I saw these people always having fun, while I was usually looking for a new job come winter instead of just watching the seasons change. I tried retail first, but I didn't like the direct sales agenda (even though we worked at a fucking walmart). I liked books but the first bookstore I applied made me realize I love libraries. So I had like the most relaxed interview at the bookstore.

In short, no there is a possibility of loving farming. But nobody loves working at McDonald's, nobody loves working at food factories where junk food is made, etc. These are soul destroying jobs, because you know in your heart that your actions hurt the health of millions. These would be fine run by robots, if they even existed. Because they are jobs most people feel shame about, where it is possible to be proud of growing crops.

I'm going to look at the rest later.

Okay, back. And yes, Brion I understand the point of how it's only sexual shame, but as you've experimented with alternate political systems (including one that seems to be a mercantile constitutional anarchy) I think it's only fair to take a look at this as a universal system.

Art would run the same. People who don't do good work, or at least popular work, will not have people buy their stuff. This would drive the people who just want art because they think it's easy out, and make the rest work better. As for farming, in this country certain subsidies for growing certain crops mean that even if they cannot sell to local markets, they have guaranteed income.

Recession is not defined as unemployment (that is depression), it is defined as negative economic growth. This means, the country as a whole is not producing money. This is as a result of several factors, some of which as purely fiction, like "there aren't enough jobs". Wrong. You can create jobs, and anyone can be an employer. The only limit is whether the job is viable at making money and preventing loss. In fact, the way we understand "making jobs" is often totally bogus. I have seen this many times. A town is doing okay with many shops in town, then we have a Walmart or ballpark or some other megastore. Do new get created? Hmmmm, let's think here... We have retail shops all over that area. They have the people they need, so no new jobs there. In theory that would make new work, since there would be now a place for people to work. In actual fact, however, there is limited physical space, so this ballpark is competing for space and probably knocked down retail stores. These people can't all work for the ballpark, so they are evicted from their businesses. This equals lost jobs not new jobs. The only way to create new jobs is to build a business that is not in competition with other businesses. This equals: (1) home business or (2) online business or (3) both. The business now operating outside the current businesses in town, is able to hire new people that are not currently employed.

Creative jobs are recession-proof if they are a creative usage of niche. Everyone becoming an artist, is decidedly not creative. That is, if I find out that there is a desperate need for pet therapists, I make the pet therapist job, and become the best paid (the only one, but anyway) pet therapist in town.   

I have read nonfiction books aplenty. I've learned some on business and economics, some on ethics, and a few on self-help. Basically, I'm a huge nerd that reads either books or the internet most of my waking hours, filters it until something fits logically. Not always right, but yea, this feels wrong. The best resources for self-help on this subject are The Gifts of Imperfection and When Panic Attacks. Guilt does not make people behave. Consider the following: a person dieting (I have my dad to use an example). When he is guilt tripped does he suddenly stick to a diet? Not hardly. He responds defensively to people "pestering" him about his eating, and now that he feels bad, eats even more self-destructively. This is, guilt/shame backfired, making him more prone to bad behavior than before.

Decadence is a product of dissolute culture. That is, when people feel insecure about what they have to offer the world, they just sit and watch movies all day.

http://www.ask.com/family/causes-moral-decadence-among-youth-92fb16619b2e1b2

Causes of moral decadence among the youth can be categorized into social, economic, cognitive and technological factors. Social causes include peer influence and unstable home environments, while economic factors include poverty. Technological innovations, such as media and the Internet, expose young people to potentially unwelcome information and cognitive causes are related to the need for belonging among the youth driven by physical and psychological needs.

Did you see, "lack of authority structure" anywhere here? No, but you did see unstable houses, peer pressure, and need for belonging. This is short for shame. They are ashamed of being homeless so they act rich. They are ashamed of not fitting in, so they do high risk behavior to impress peers. And they receive loads of ads from technology that convince them they won't measure up without the latest whatever.

401

Flipside Discussion / Re: Chapter 45: discussion

« on: February 19, 2016, 04:10:24 pm »

Erm, lemme rephrase that. I don't think revenge seeking is good.

Essentially, yeah maybe you're right. We do need courts, where actual evidence that someone wronged us is brought up.

But we don't need cops coming to our house to arrest us because of something they have decided is illegal to even have.
Our current justice system is very much based on fear and shame. A prime example: indecent exposure. Honestly, is it anyone else's business how we are dressed? How about possession of guns? Possession of alcohol or drugs? There are laws that don't affect anyone at all unless we use such things to hurt others.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victimless_crime

We need courts to prove that people who hurt us actually hurt us. And maybe mercenary cops to bring them into such courts. But we do not need police to enforce right and wrong.

I am not convinced of this. Without being made to feel ashamed, people can still be fired. And if we had no shame, we would be doing possibly unethical (under our current norms) jobs. Alot of people would be artists or writers (or prostitutes or really weird jobs).  For that matter, our current food industry is fucked up precisely because there are too many humans involved in it. If aside from people who loved to farm, the food industry was largely mechanized, we would have largely have healthier food. This would be true of many of the "conventional" jobs that everyone currently overrates because they are afraid to strike out alone and do what they love. This is already starting to happen, the big industries are becoming unnecessary. We currently have too many people involved in jobs that hate their job, this means rather than having a positive production from our jobs, we are making stuff that is garbage because there is an almost criminal lack of pride in work.

In short, if in order to retain money you have to work, then lacking anyone's opinion on the "sensible" thing, people do their dream jobs. McDonald's and alot of the really crappy stuff become mechanized. You would actually be surprised at how unsustainable our current culture is, it literally relies on force to get people to do what they don't want to do. Everything from sanctions, to isolation, to making people almost unemployable. This cannot last. We currently have millions paying into college but they have nothing to do. We call it a recession but the reality of it is, there are recession-proof jobs, and most of them are creative and/or entrepreneurial. A shame-free society, not only will not be decadent, but will sustain itself.

Also, decadence does not come from lack of shame. The reverse is true. Decadence is when the culture is sick. And this happens more from an excessively vain group of people. Think about this. An unashamed person goes out and does what they love. A vain person worries about what others think, and spends all of their time at parties, checking facebook, seeking the approval of others. A content person doesn't need approval, so they go find their own path. If their path doesn't work, they will screw themselves over and probably wipe themselves out. Or they get a new one.

402

Flipside Discussion / Re: Chapter 45: discussion

« on: February 18, 2016, 05:26:08 am »

I'm not sure I agree with Regina's utopia wholeheartedly.

A nudist colony would likely not be a wonderful world for anyone wearing clothing. Nor would it be for anyone who actively wants to be something else (taller, shorter, heavier, skinnier, a female like me, etc). Basically, it's a fine idea, but I'd rethink it since it smacks of conformity. Here's what I do think though.

I've been trolling Pinterest and Facebook, and one of the pictures caught my eye. It was a split screen picture of the same block. On the left we had police grabbing people on their knees, super-ultra-megapharmacy, drones, pollution, and so on. On the right, we have an organic health food store, trees, shiny happy people everywhere, and just a general sense that people are happier and more free. After looking at this, and looking at the other picture, I came to the conclusion that I want this sort of thing too. The reason I came to that things are so messed up is because a number of cause but mainly: an oppressive police state built on fear and shame (that is, the only actual crimes that there are would be based on mistreatment of other people, like rape or murder, and those could be policed by people seeking revenge; the rest of our laws are arbitrary restrictions like "white and colored folk can't use the same bathroom" or "you can't sleep just anywhere in a town, you gotta pay rent" or "you can't copy that DVD, and you can't play that here in this country"),  advertising companies that thrive on people feeling worthless, and our health system has decided to cause disease (look up pinkwashing and the cancer corporations, you will literally become sick to your stomach at how companies have suppressed the use of any other approach to cancer than chemo (which several sites have listed as 93% ineffective and weakening to the body), surgery (which is effective, but not always permanent since lifestyle is the cause of cancer), and radiation (known to cause cancer) when there are in fact organic foods that lower cancer risk, called antioxidants). In short, we have a society bent on making us feel worthless through constant reinforcement of insecurity, and things that use that to kill or frighten us. We need one that lets us be us.

Our military should not invade other countries, it should only defend from attack, and we shouldn't be excessively aware of its presence. Our medicine should be a combination of gene therapy, herbal cures (herbs do work, and they are often safer than many of the synthetic drugs because they have all the other stuff in the plant), surgery, and an emphasis on prevention (with most of its money coming from optional treatments like people wanting elf ears or something). Our police should be either volunteers or bounty hunter style and mainly work on murder and rape investigations, if they are there at all. We don't need to be told we need makeup. Makeup is like accessories, it defines our style (less "I look ugly without it" and more "I want blue fingernails today"). And our science could be extremely green, using ambient solar energy, wind power, geothermal energy and have a pollution free society.

What we need is not to feel bad about having shame of our own. Maybe we will be ashamed of our bodies. We are allowed any insane and expensive procedure we want, because it is our bodies. What we need, is to do away with external shame, the sort that is like a mom harping on her daughter "why aren't you married yet?" causing her to rush into abusive marriage.

403

Flipside Discussion / Re: Flipside Kickstarter for Book 8!

« on: February 17, 2016, 06:09:29 am »

Urgh yeah, I have a pet peeve about making a game or something, and having the person playing it quit before they make it through. Granted, I have a short attention span, but when they then proceed to review the game as a whole without playing the game as a whole... yeah, it's so refreshing to have a reviewer that looks at the entire thing.

That said, I could forgive anyone for not getting through Bravely Default. 

404

Flipside Discussion / Re: Chapter 45: discussion

« on: February 12, 2016, 07:20:51 pm »

I was expecting some comments about Glyph turning Regina to the dark side or something, but it was mainly an interesting transtopic ("That's not a word." "Says you.") that I won't add anything to because 1) the conversation's already moving on and 2) I'm not interested in writing a mini novel of a post. But this has been a fun chapter so far.

Why I ultimately veered away. 5 or 10 such posts was beginning to grate on my nerves.

Seems like Glyph has nothing to hide. 

405

Flipside Discussion / Re: Chapter 45: discussion

« on: February 11, 2016, 08:11:02 pm »

Meh, nvm. I think we're getting off story a bit.

Brion will probably explain sex changes if it's relevant to the plot, otherwise it's kinda whatever.

This is kinda a weird story, no? We started with a sense of mission then, nahhhh, let's go drinking. Meanwhile, we have wizard girl Regina getting a first taste of perversion. Unless it's filler or humor section, it's kinda "where is Brion going with this?" chapter.

 

406

Flipside Discussion / Re: Flipside Kickstarter for Book 8!

« on: February 11, 2016, 08:00:26 pm »

http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/6310783-flipside

Best and/or most honest review ever.

If you're interested in polyamory/monogamy and negotiating incompatible sex drives and relationship orientations, with a backdrop of magics and quests - rejoice!

I'm not much for the author's descriptions of his own work (stop calling this character a nymphomaniac bisexual with a split personality, I disagree with your interpretation of her and you are pathologizing needlessly and oppressively). I also didn't especially love the first few chapters (the ones in this book I'm reviewing), as they use the tired "awkward male protagonist likes girl" schtick, and there's a fair amount of sexist and homophobic characters. Plus, the very first page is about how sex is a universal, integral experience, which, asexual erasure much.

BUT - as the series progresses, it turns out that this annoying male protagonist was mainly a plot device to (re)introduce the real main characters (since there is actually a lot of canon backstory which exists in "Book 0," the older and less-pretty webcomics), and he gets rightly background-ed. The homophobia and sexism are predominantly symptoms of the small town we start out in, and we leave it soon enough. I can write off the "sex, it must be important to absolutely everyone" bit as part of the character's overexaggerated stage show.

And, I fell in love with the characters, their dynamics, the exploration of their compatibility, and with the world-building and sorcery and plot.

I was worried about the "hypersexual/nymphomaniac bisexual non-monogamous girl" trope, but the actual representation of her character is very well-done and nuanced. The way she talks about her perspective on things like sex, nudity, and relationships sounds like the things a pansexual non-monogamous person with a high libido would actually say. She doesn't feel over-exaggerated or (too) over-sexualized, and she is presented sympathetically.

She is juxtaposed well against her partner, and both of their feelings and belief systems are treated with respect and carefully explored as they try to negotiate a way to stay together. Throughout their adventures, they continue to struggle and have genuine, unfabricated conflicts. They have meaningful discussions with other characters about honesty and compromise, about the nature of sex and what is "natural" or "disgusting" - and all of this flows with the adventure narrative.

I am seriously invested in this webcomic and the ongoing relationship between two characters who love each other intensely, have fundamentally different beliefs about relationships, and are fighting to stay together (along with fighting some serious enemies and some moral battles - sometimes with very cool magic). Hardcore recommend.

Pffft, sounds like someone doesn't like Crest.

Personally, not into the books 1-8 (since I like to just marathon through a self-contained work, such as Bone), but I think I'll definitely try to get a hold of Book 0.

407

Flipside Discussion / Re: Chapter 45: discussion

« on: February 08, 2016, 10:02:26 pm »

I am Al Gore. I invented the invented the internet. 

(As in, the idea I mentioned earlier)

Recall the entrance to Eschelon.

http://flipside.keenspot.com/comic.php?i=1029

We had massive floating rocks, flying city, "burial" using magic, regrowing organs.

There is no sign of any limits to this "magic". For that matter, human being can be brought back to life (it's expensive, and some deaths are a no-go, but quite a bit beyond what any medicine now can do).

http://flipside.keenspot.com/comic.php?i=1037

They call this process "easy". If you had a model, you could definitely make wings. Or whatever else. Beyond that is mirroring, to make things symmetrical. Given this, the reason people aren't walking around with wings?

• It's forbidden by law
• Or it's extremely tacky

Given that some people have "curses" and other anomalies, there are some exceptions of this. But it seems like anything too extreme tends to provoke action from law enforcement.

408

Flipside Discussion / Re: Chapter 45: discussion

« on: February 03, 2016, 07:39:36 pm »

Given what we know about the "magic" or technology of this world, it's not throwing more power at the problem. It's different application of the same technique. Regrowing limbs, growing wings, growing organs. Same difference all around. The difference, is that the Thin Man (or rather his backer) is a mad scientist. Same technology, different willingness to do stuff with it.

Bloody Mary is essentially my nanomachine design in play. Except they might be symbiotes or something. They detect wounds in the body, and horde on it stimulating almost cancerlike healing and regrowth of wounds. This is the regrowth technology as a constantly active effect. I am thinking symbiotes, because most of her other effects seem to be biological (the "fear demon" could easily be a type of ooze (read: low level lifeform)  that gives off some sort of fear hormone, and the claws are definitely some type of necrotoxin venom or acid). Given the level of science we are dealing with, all you would need is someone mad enough to do this.  Btw, the venom Bloody Marry has? I think this is not actually for her benefit, so much as a failsafe (where someone like Bern can kill her with her own toxin) if she gets too out of control.

Drinking makes everything better!   

409

Flipside Discussion / Re: Chapter 45: discussion

« on: February 03, 2016, 03:52:50 am »

Well, actually one or more of those conditions is already met by Bloody Mary herself.

It is the same technology, but while sex or skin color changes might be justifiable (by the way, if it was prohibitively expensive, why did they act like no big deal? It's upper court procedure but obviously relatively simple. Meaning there are more complicated things, like regrowing a broken heart), I imagine there are arbitrary moral restrictions, for the same reason we don't walk around with cloned parts despite being on threshold of stem cell breakthroughs. People get squicked out by cloned organ so we're instead using dumb old robotic prosthesis (ppl are dumb, haven't you guys seen movies about malfunctioning machines?) .

410

Flipside Discussion / Re: Chapter 45: discussion

« on: February 01, 2016, 10:05:12 pm »

Sidetracking for a second before addressing your latest post.

From Moby's narrative we have:

• A quiet girl
• Who becomes stuck on herself when she becomes powerful
• Who becomes rejected and isolated as a result
• Gets along with Kindred, but nobody likes her
• People meet her parents
• She hates her parents
• She seems to be sincere

This is obviously the truth from Moby's perspective, however, as TvTropes points out, there is such a thing as an Alternate Character Interpretation:

• Suspiria is naturally shy, and rather odd
• Suspiria comes out of her shell socially. However, her personally is guarded so she comes across as arrogant and aloof
• Who becomes rejected and isolated as a result. This probably also causes a backlash, which leads her to act even more rude
• Gets along with Kindred, but nobody likes her. This is probably because Kindred sees behind the surface. Moby, on the other hand, is swayed by what now appears to be "her true colors."
• People meet what appear to be her parents. It is entirely possible that either they move to a town nobody knew them, or dead ringers were assigned to replace them. Suspiria even says "so I'm not crazy!" as in, for years enough oddities about their behavior stacked up and she felt totally bonkers.
• She hates her parents. Would you love random strangers that you suspected replaced your real ones, but couldn't even tell other people this, because they might think you are crazy?
• She is sincere. She legitimately has been bullied. She has serious doubts about pretty much everyone she knows, and the guy she loved just died.

This isn't much of a stretch.

The sex change of the future would likely need those to extract the DNA of the host, compile a genetic 3d printout, and perform minute surgery on the organs and culturing of organs within the body. As for immune system suppressors. Well, there are problems with this. First off, immunosuppressants are essentially chemotherapy medication, given a much lower dosage. The body is not really designed for them in the long term. Second, well this describes the complications of immune system drugs during pregnancy, namely that the drugs interfere with the immune system. That kinda... endangers the life of the child. And the mother.

No, you would need some way of making your own organs from the opposite sex, and/or actually rewriting the DNA. Mebbe not nanomachines, but some sorta reverse gender cloning deal then.

 

411

Flipside Discussion / Re: Chapter 45: discussion

« on: January 31, 2016, 05:34:58 am »

From a genetic perspective, if you are able to regrow limbs, you are able to perform a perfect sex change. By perfect, I mean normally the procedure is a simple surgery, and is more similar to carving a pumpkin into a desired shape than making something biologically work.  Because of the general shape, it will work as a sexual receptor, but it is completely infertile.
On the other hand (pffft, get it, the otger "hand" while we're talking about growing organs? Sigh that was unintentional) if you are growing organs, you are basically able to work with genetics and nanomachines to selectively grow one organ, remove the other, and attune the new organ so it will not be rejected by the body. This would also allow body modifications like wings or tail. You could definitely have a male become a female, no sweat.

But the deal here is unless her process was somehow botched, she would appear fully female after this, to the point where nobody would notice.

412

Flipside Discussion / Re: Chapter 45: discussion

« on: January 30, 2016, 03:57:50 am »

Intersex can make sense, but it doesn't seem very common in stories compared to trans, so it didn't occur to me. It would fill the same role in my possibilities as C, although it wouldn't be the same to Vennice, of course.

Anyway, I believe that surgically altering intersex babies must lead to additional transgenderism.

Ironically, it's done by the same type people who object so heavily to LGBT. They don't want to admit that such exist because it helps prop up the two gender binary so we have the whole deal with separate restrooms. But even if we didn't have intersex, even back in biblical times it admits to having "natural eunuchs". (It's a sore point, because it isn't publicly done, often isn't done even with the say of the parents, and is done too young all in the name of enforcing normalcy)
http://www.gotquestions.org/eunuch-eunuchs.html
 Which, ironically, since I probably won't do SRS (as much as a luxury car) that's what I'd become post surgery (cheaper option is castration of testes, plus hormones).

Anyway... if I haven't grossed you all out, this is consistent with the amount of modesty/shame of someone unwillingly different down below. This is why I discount transgender. They are generally okay with stuff down there, assuming they made the switch.

413

Flipside Discussion / Re: Chapter 45: discussion

« on: January 28, 2016, 08:47:33 pm »

I see. I 'try' to judge people on their personal merit as a individual and on how they behave with or without honor and respect to others differences.  Like in your  particular case Ms Briefs... I'm male firmly hetero-sexual and would never consider a transgender or gay life choice... but I see in you a intelligent and polite personality... so I try very hard to show no bias or disrespect to your choice... though i may disagree with it~ it is not my place to condemn or criticise any polite or equally respectable person who treats other with the same politeness.  One of my best and closest friends is openly gay... and though don't agree with his choice he is still a dear friend of mine whose life I would gladly protect with my own or even surrender my life in his behalf if it would protect him from harm.  To add to that complicated friendship.. he's Caucasian and I'm African American.  I'm well aware from my life experiences, as such, of the unreasoning, unfair, flat EVIL of bigotry... and would NEVER want to behave that way, to ANYONE for ANY reason!

I'm not perfect... but I aspire to see NO race, gender, sexual orientation, social status or, for that matter, species in the polite meeting of sentient intelligent beings in peaceful cooexistance.

Let Jehovah God judge.. he directs us to love each other as we would be loved in return. So that's how I try to live.

Oh, I like you too! 

Basically, the odd thing is, I'm a moderate-conservative (don't vote conservative because I'm too far middle) Christian too, so I had a fair amount of angst about this for awhile too. Being trans means sexuality is all mixed up, so I'm actually heterosexual in terms of my original (?) gender, it's just that I don't really feel comfy with male gender roles (don't feel, lift this/that, be tough, fight fight fight) I have a need inside to be seen by others as something other than male.

Well, it seems either Vennice is arguing in an extreme, reactionary way to get out of an argument she has no real explanation for or Vennice is a true man-hater for some reason Brion may develop in the future and/or Vennice is trans and thus reacted extra-strongly to avoid being seen naked and is so unwilling to share that she's trans that she simply picked another extreme to get out of the conversation (either part A is true or part B is true or part C is true or parts B and C are simultaneously true). Her being a random undeveloped man-hater is another possibility but seems even more shallow than her having no reason whatsoever for modesty. So I'm hoping A and D are not true and that B and/or C are true. Of course it's possible that B and/or C are true but Brion will kill her off or otherwise remove her from the story before explaining/revealing B and/or C in any depth, but this makes the conversation a waste of time outside of developing Regina, and I'm not sure the conversation did much for Regina other than cement that she idolizes Maytag and wants to be like her.

I wonder how trans works in Flipside world.

And yes, reading between the lines, I have the impression of something like this. Not necessarily trans though. "No one gets to see this body! It's too good for them" kinda reads as there's something I especially don't want men to see, but I don't think women would understand either (covering insecurity with fake narcissism). This feels like either gender dysphoria or more likely she is sorta intersex. I knew a girl that now looking back on it, I still love her completely, but I wonder, since she did appear to have an aversion to swimsuits. I kinda wish I had seen her in one as she was sorta cute, but she was curvy and tall and insecure in other ways.
http://www.isna.org/faq/concealment
These are people I feel for, as from birth, people try to surgically alter them and they walk around with fear of being rejected. But I want to be cool with this.

414

Flipside Discussion / Re: Chapter 45: discussion

« on: January 27, 2016, 05:23:48 pm »

Oh, I like her. 

Sometimes man hatred has a source that can't be easily rooted.  I'm a trans woman, and I'm pretty firmly lesbian. It goes back to a time at daycare called the "Fun Factory". I blanked out the memory, but my dad sat in on one of them, and apparently whenever we did anything wrong, they were quick to blame the boys. I kinda get the feeling guys were blamed for alot, as in I got the impression that men were useless. That, and alot of stories of rapist murderers, I don't think much of men. Watching a few Lifetime movies didn't help. Plus, in general, I find women cuter.

http://www.xojane.com/family/i-was-raised-to-hate-men-and-now-i-dont-know-what-to-think-about-feminism

Personally, I think we are all bisexual at birth, and at a certain age our sexual preferences usually become fixed, with the exception of some people who remain fluid about their  gender preferences. A typical homosexual  learns to love men, but it feels like lesbians have a later age where gender is fixed, and have run into so  many horrible men they learn to hate them.

415

Flipside Discussion / Re: Chapter 45: discussion

« on: January 22, 2016, 04:22:53 am »

Hmmmm. Even if it means cutting off a piece of myself... why that note, and not one telling them she's fine? Kinda makes me think she might do something drastic to get through the Dark Cell.

416

Flipside Discussion / Re: Mistake Thread

« on: January 21, 2016, 03:22:06 am »

It should read "Maytag and Bern were there too." This was before eschelon I think, so they hadn't yet met Moby.  It was at the inn I believe.

417

Flipside Discussion / Re: Chapter 45: discussion

« on: January 20, 2016, 06:18:51 am »

Wait, where do we have a scene that shows her footprints? Also, I believe part of the whole invisible thing is solid-form astral projection. So, yes, technically she was there, but no footprints are likely to appear. Assuming Qtalda is even a she.

http://flipside.keenspot.com/comic.php?i=1995

...Oh, didn't notice last frame.

And yes, yes she is. But you're still a bad person. 

418

Flipside Discussion / Re: Chapter 45: discussion

« on: January 20, 2016, 03:36:27 am »

I suppose this is true. I'm just putting together the facts to arrive at a conclusion. No matter what, there are certain ways a story has to happen, given previous information.

For example, in a creation story we know that everything we see in this world is a result of natural or human causes. Rocks form from earthquakes, water from moisture buildup, trees from seeds, manmade objects from humans. Given this, creation stories never involve creation out of nothing. Instead either:
1. A law is behind creation (either scientific or cosmic like the Tao)
2. A force (big bang)
3. Creation from some sort of primordial egg
4. Or some sort of deity
5. Or humans created their own universe

That is, I'm not talking about creation stories. I'm talking about, in the above situation mythmakers and scientists alike use the information they already know.

Yes, there probably will be a surprise. But the working theory is that either suspiria is telling the truth, or she doesn't know the truth due to mental distortion of the seed of power. If she was using the heroes, we have to examine her behavior even prior to meeting and assume something strange like that she sent Bloody Mary. Studying Kindred reveals how unlikely that is.

419

Flipside Discussion / Re: Chapter 45: discussion

« on: January 18, 2016, 11:19:13 pm »

Again I come back to my original point of view... What possible reason would Suspiria have to put on that entire dog & pony show... JUST for Crest's benefit?  If she had the power to control minds so thoroughly.. why not just MAKE Crest love/believe in her!  Heck she didn't EVEN use that 'alleged' power to coerce Crest to give her the affection she so wanted and just have her way with him..EVEN just once... she likely could have made him believe he wanted her {which.. I'm not entirely convinced in some part of his heart he did not desire her..small as it might be}, or even just erased the 'coupling' from his memories.

Occam's razor -

"other things being equal, simpler explanations are generally better than more complex ones"

I STILL Think Qtalda's lying and she has the magical power to cover her tracks by altering other people's memories... but only time will tell the truth.

I think you're overthinking this.

From what we've seen of Suspiria, she tends to use direct magic. It also seems like in Flipside universe, people tend to learn spells that suit their personality.  Qtalda is a creepy killer, so she has a death bug spell. Suspiria tends to rely on spells that are reflection, flight, and raw power and very to the point (no illusions then). So it wouldn't stand to reason she's been playing a manipulation game, unless she started even at the point where we first met her. That explanation is so hopelessly complicated it makes no sense.

On the other hand, a simple "but here are her parents? See?" sham is rather easy to pull off. If Crest chills out a bit, he'd get just how flimsy that lie seems.

http://flipside.keenspot.com/comic.php?i=2317
http://flipside.keenspot.com/comic.php?i=2319
http://flipside.keenspot.com/comic.php?i=1951

Also. This makes no sense. She appeared in front of her classmates, hurt but not killed them and destroyed the wall of her room.  From an even basic read of the situation, this is not a manipulator, this is someone out for revenge.
Her "violent" side, considering her awesome power, was relatively controlled. Her classmates hurt her, but aren't the target of her revenge. On the other hand, their first action is to use lethal force against her. Further, Qtalda admits to erasing her memories, killing her parents, the whole bit. But only Crest and Suspiria know this, and Qtalda pulls out these people to call her motives and sanity into question. What were her motives if not revenge?

 What really troubles me is the whole deal where Qtalda's body is elsewhere. We have no idea what this person looks like.

I agree that it's flimsy, but there would still be some chance that Suspiria wanted "genuine" loyalty/other from Crest based on lies more than she wanted to just turn Crest into a puppet directly. That or she wants to use him somehow where such mind control would be discovered, undermining her plan.

It most definitely does not add up.

• We have not seen her use mind control, just truth spells
• Qtalda, on the other hand, not only admitted his crimes, but has erased memories before. This implies someone skilled at manipulating events
• He only admitted this to someone he was sure would die, and mentioned "searching the forest" for witnesses. Meaning this was something he definitely did not want anyone to know about.
• If she only wanted trust, she could have done it in a better way than risking her body with a decay spell, putting him in a situation where she had to cure him.
• It is possible this is a massive illusion. We do not know the Flipside rules about illusions, but I would assume most of them, aside from the big one of the Qualia have certain limitations, such as an issue with touch not matching up to sight. So, Crest was decaying from the spell fallout until her stabbed himself. He definitely felt that. And it definitely made an effect on her decay. She would have to be a first rate illusionist to make the effect match up to everything with the right timing. And Crest would have been able to test the workings of the sword from his swordfight on return to town.
• From this, we can conclude there is no illusion or mind control. Just a simple con artist job by a wizard who could be anyone. Including a "harmless pervert."

The simplest explanation involves no mind control:

Suspiria is troubled and angry but not insane, there is some definite stuff going on here, without any manipulation from her. Qtalda is produced fake "parents" to throw shadow on her accusations of dead parents. She probably even had them "move into town" and introduce themselves so as many people as possible knew them. Suspiria thought she was crazy, everyone else didn't know better.  I also think this is less "mind control" and more Qtalda using Jedi mind tricks to make what he's saying sound reasonable. As in, Qtalda isn't controlling minds so much as propping up words and "proof" with magic. Everyone acted like they took stupid pills, and didn't question why she would randomly attack someone with no motive.

420

Flipside Discussion / Re: Chapter 45: discussion

« on: January 12, 2016, 12:59:45 pm »

She's Moby, and she's a tailor.

http://flipside.keenspot.com/comic.php?i=1072

While she could be potentially sinister, this is sorta on par with suspecting the person who bakes your bread of poisoning you. In this age of preservatives, maybe, but typically some sense of trust is needed to keep us all from going paranoid.