Author Topic: Chapter 48: Discussion  (Read 8294 times)

dekutree64

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Re: Chapter 48: Discussion
« Reply #60 on: May 10, 2017, 10:21:32 am »
Lying to a truth specialist, Maytag? When Corona already knows good and well that the room wasn't empty? Hopefully this is part of a strategy, and not an actual attempt to fool him.

bulmabriefs144

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Re: Chapter 48: Discussion
« Reply #61 on: May 10, 2017, 10:26:35 am »
It's not to fool him, at least, it is to fool him but not to hide information. It's to make him blurt out or reveal that he knows exactly what is inside this room.
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

sunphoenix

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Re: Chapter 48: Discussion
« Reply #62 on: May 10, 2017, 11:20:36 am »
It's not to fool him, at least, it is to fool him but not to hide information. It's to make him blurt out or reveal that he knows exactly what is inside this room.

...Let's hope so. Lying is so ignoble and not worthy of the woman Maytag is and aspires to be! Though clearly Maytag has made no attempt to hide Eye's presence.

And Bern would not approve of lying.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2017, 11:24:03 am by sunphoenix »
"...no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free.  No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything - you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is Kill him." - Robert A. Heinlein


SAGG

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Re: Chapter 48: Discussion
« Reply #63 on: May 10, 2017, 04:35:08 pm »
Yes, a ruse by Maytag to get the Thin Man to reveal what or who he believes is in there....  8)

sunphoenix

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Re: Chapter 48: Discussion
« Reply #64 on: May 13, 2017, 06:36:18 am »
Busted.. but you're right it worked he spilled the beans..some of them at least.
"...no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free.  No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything - you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is Kill him." - Robert A. Heinlein


bulmabriefs144

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Re: Chapter 48: Discussion
« Reply #65 on: May 13, 2017, 06:49:58 am »
"I won't let you experiment on her!"

"Wre're not gonna experiment on her. We're sending her to Charles Xavier's school to control her powers."

"Oh. Okay!"
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

sunphoenix

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Re: Chapter 48: Discussion
« Reply #66 on: May 14, 2017, 03:38:37 am »
"I won't let you experiment on her!"

"Wre're not gonna experiment on her. We're sending her to Charles Xavier's school to control her powers."

"Oh. Okay!"

Now THAT would be Tre' Cool! :)

Lehm Bucket list -
Tied down an Straddled by Maytag {Check!}   :-*
« Last Edit: May 31, 2017, 09:33:55 pm by sunphoenix »
"...no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free.  No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything - you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is Kill him." - Robert A. Heinlein


monimoni

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Re: Chapter 48: Discussion
« Reply #67 on: May 16, 2017, 03:28:58 am »
OH, I thought the chapter was going to finish with the last page, in a "dun dun duuuuunnn" fashion. Oh well.
Looking forward to finding out what is so special about this girl. Also, I'm curious to see what's under that mask of his.

bulmabriefs144

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Re: Chapter 48: Discussion
« Reply #68 on: May 16, 2017, 03:45:40 pm »
Brion seems to almost always have 30 or 60 page chapters. 30 pages might be okay for this, actually, reading it again. Also, I have no idea how one manages to have a precise page length like that.
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

sunphoenix

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Re: Chapter 48: Discussion
« Reply #69 on: May 19, 2017, 06:04:22 am »
Also, I have no idea how one manages to have a precise page length like that.

...lots of planning and practice! :)
"...no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free.  No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything - you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is Kill him." - Robert A. Heinlein


bulmabriefs144

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Re: Chapter 48: Discussion
« Reply #70 on: May 23, 2017, 04:02:33 pm »
She's got a point there.

Also, it makes very little sense that if you want truth to escape, you wipe people's minds when they leave. Why would you do that if you're concerned about the truth?  ???
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

mittfh

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Re: Chapter 48: Discussion
« Reply #71 on: May 24, 2017, 02:45:01 pm »
"...I will pay every person I owe, then I will turn myself in."

Yeah, right, sure, as if... :)

bulmabriefs144

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Re: Chapter 48: Discussion
« Reply #72 on: May 24, 2017, 10:28:49 pm »
Actually, he seems to be telling the truth.
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

sunphoenix

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Re: Chapter 48: Discussion
« Reply #73 on: May 26, 2017, 01:05:37 pm »
She's got a point there.

Also, it makes very little sense that if you want truth to escape, you wipe people's minds when they leave. Why would you do that if you're concerned about the truth?  ???

I think Lehm's issue is he has not discovered his definitive "truth"... and is still searching for his understanding.  If he allowed people to leave without wiping portions of their memory they would indeed reveal his deeds and potentially lead people to him.. before he has the truth he is seeking... hence why he needs to wipe their memories.
"...no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free.  No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything - you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is Kill him." - Robert A. Heinlein


bulmabriefs144

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Re: Chapter 48: Discussion
« Reply #74 on: May 26, 2017, 08:08:27 pm »
"This world is not real" is not enough of a truth?

"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

sunphoenix

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Re: Chapter 48: Discussion
« Reply #75 on: May 29, 2017, 05:51:44 pm »
"This world is not real" is not enough of a truth?

I think he wants to know more than that. He knows that already (that the world is not real)... what he doesn't know is why the world is the way it is, how it was made or modified to be this way... and most importantly, WHO did this to world - why they did it and where, if there is such a place, IS the 'real world'?
« Last Edit: May 29, 2017, 05:54:08 pm by sunphoenix »
"...no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free.  No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything - you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is Kill him." - Robert A. Heinlein


bulmabriefs144

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Re: Chapter 48: Discussion
« Reply #76 on: May 29, 2017, 08:29:22 pm »
For him, yes. But, recall, his mission is to bring the truth to the world. The other stuff is academic, the truth relevant to the world is that they are being deceived.

It's like, you could tell your soon to be girlfriend "I love you" and this is the truth. The truth that "I first met you when I was six and I have been watching you in disguise" may also be the truth, but it is truth that most people do not need to know. In fact, you would be worried about the effect of knowing such a truth, and the first truth is more relevant.

Thin Man's job is to expose the lie of the world, so as to undermine its power. The only reason the other stuff would be needed is if he wanted people involved personally in the study of reality. Most people will care less about this, and the more important issue, moving away from the deception of magic, will be accomplished. Plus the last issue (who did this) will likely be flushed out when people start trying to hunt qualia down. 

Which brings us to the last accusation "You were never on my side." Honestly, she was kidnapped, deceived, and made to do the bidding of someone she had no stake with. Considering this, she did still do her job. But Lehm's truth really isn't relevant to her. The truth she cares about freeing is Eye.
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

sunphoenix

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Re: Chapter 48: Discussion
« Reply #77 on: May 30, 2017, 12:37:08 am »
... thought Maytag's expression in panel 2 seems to say... she somewhat empathizes with him on some level, but she decides to be truthful for all the reasons you bring up and the fact Lehm is admittedly being hypocritical she cannot in good conscience side with a man who even if he doesn't directly do it intentionally, allows innocent people to be brutalized and twisted into monsters to be let loose to sow even more pain and suffering on the innocent of the world.  Lehm may be a seeker of truth which is admirable in Maytag's mind... but he is willing to do ANYTHING to get to his 'truth' regardless of how many lives it wreaks or ends prematurely..

Despite Lehm's cultured speak and polite ways ~ he's a monster who she cannot side with!
"...no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free.  No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything - you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is Kill him." - Robert A. Heinlein


bulmabriefs144

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Re: Chapter 48: Discussion
« Reply #78 on: May 30, 2017, 06:40:37 am »
I think the key to understanding Lehm's "monstrous" behavior is this.

(Let's use a non-government example)

Surely everyone wants to solve cancer, or have a car that runs on a renewable energy source. But if you invented say an easy method of controlling cancer (say, an exercise and diet method) or some source of energy that is so easy that it's a wonder that people haven't invented it before (in pretty muchevery case of someone researching cold fusion or perpetual motion, they pretty much committed career suicide), these are to do with the problem of having competition with the current system, since in the above method of cancer cure they aren't making money, and in the other case either it is effective and marketable, or it isn't. These are not competing technologies, they are new ideas (right or wrong) that change the status quo.

Whenever you expose something fishy about a system, those who are part of the old system go into denial mode and those who knew about it will create violence. Is this truth worth it?

The answer is a reluctant yes. We know that the Nazi system, most of the people were in the dark about gas chambers. This is what happens when people support a system that doesn't tell the whole truth.

Now, here's point. Yes, Lehm made actual physical monsters. Yes, Lehm's truth ruined lives (think about Maytag, wanting to compete in the contest, suddenly finding herself out of luck, with no knowledge of how she got there, and possibly with mutant limbs or something). Yes, Lehm possibly helped get rid of most of the leaders of a magical city, but making a super-mage.

 But... we currently have a government where healers can treat for free, only because of oppressively high taxes, and a criminal magical government that has actually killed people and messed with their minds to such a point where they can't even be sure what they saw was real. It in fact looked like half the room was under a mind fog spell. We have a police force that, given what we know of this system, probably quietly gets rid of people even those who pay their taxes, who don't particularly believe in magic. Lehm is trying to expose magic. Thing of the implications of this for a second, that he has to hide his lair, because the system is such that there were probably other eccentrics around but they all got arrested, even before the crime of creating monsters.
 Now on the other end, we have equally dystopic nation where people seem to have the right to do whatever, so long as it doesn't coerce or hurt another, but as we saw, an outsider like Bern is able to become desperate for medical treatment and have no money no options. When she tries to make them , she winds up fighting for her life to entertain people, and cheating on her lover to get out of the system. And after all of that, they don't keep their bargain and try to rope her in for more time.

These are the truth of the governments of Maytag and Bern's world. Exposing that such things are controlled by a system that isn't even real will unseat the ruling class, and cause violence and instability. But peace at the cost of ignorance ceases to be worthy when it causes needless deaths every day. The same system that creates the Qualia can create someone who has a healing factor and doesn't need to die. But it doesn't. Instead magic is used largely for commercial and security reasons.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2017, 10:16:25 am by bulmabriefs144 »
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

SAGG

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Re: Chapter 48: Discussion
« Reply #79 on: May 31, 2017, 08:33:11 pm »
Oh no. Maytag's not gonna let the dude go, then put Eye back out of guilt, is she? And what's the deal with all shadows now, Brion? You got some Samm Schwartz in you?  ;D  (Archie comics fans know what I'm talking about)

sunphoenix

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Re: Chapter 48: Discussion
« Reply #80 on: May 31, 2017, 09:37:23 pm »
I like the shadows.. kinda noir... intimate y'know! "Time for tha' lovin'!"    :-*

...but in all seriousness, maybe I'm reading too much into it, but I'm actually getting the feeling that Maytag actually likes Lehm.. for his dedication and drive.. his goal is admirable, perhaps not his methods, but she is also familiar with hidden monsters inside. 

Which is why she is so frustrated with Lehm, not angry that's a different thing.  Maytag is no paragon of justice, but she does care about fairness ~ NOT the same as justice.  Being twisted into a monster and then having your memories erased and not paid for your pain is not fair!  So Lehm's almost fatalistic, 'selfless devotion to a higher goal ~ The Truth... and yet he wears a mask and keep secrets is a similar dichotomy to Maytag... she wanted to be accepted for 'who she is'... and yet she puts on a acting personality for other's to like or at least relate to rather than be her true self.  Maytag and Lehm are very similar... he actually "gets" her and she "gets" him... THAT appeals to Maytag ~ I think on some levels even SHE may not realize}!  It also frustrates her cause she cannot condone Lehm's actions that have hurt and killed people.

And is it me or does it seem Maytag may be pondering some 'devouring' of her own? :)
« Last Edit: June 01, 2017, 05:59:13 am by sunphoenix »
"...no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free.  No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything - you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is Kill him." - Robert A. Heinlein


bulmabriefs144

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Re: Chapter 48: Discussion
« Reply #81 on: June 02, 2017, 09:26:39 pm »
I'm not sure "fairness" is what characterizes Maytag. She mainly cares about this, as a result of being around Bern (justice). She in terms of value system is roughly halfway between truth and justice, Lehm and Bern. But if I had to pin a trait on her, I would say determined curiosity. Unlike truth, she doesn't really care about the correct way things are. She cares about knowing about things, learning and having experiences. She describes pain on two occasions as "an interesting experience." (Once in Book 0 with Moss, the second time with 2nd phase) She seems to also be very interested in sex, particularly experimentation, dspite being the emotionless type (doesn't seem consistent with that personality).
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

sunphoenix

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Re: Chapter 48: Discussion
« Reply #82 on: June 03, 2017, 03:45:20 am »
Maybe sex makes her curious because it is pleasurable in a purely physical sense to someone who is naturally unemotional... perhaps it is something she can truly 'feel"?  Like even on a pretty sunny hot day.. she feels no emotional attachment to the beauty.. but the cool breeze catching in her hair IS something she can physically experience beyond an intellectual or emotional reaction that is 'real' to her?
"...no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free.  No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything - you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is Kill him." - Robert A. Heinlein


SAGG

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Re: Chapter 48: Discussion
« Reply #83 on: June 05, 2017, 07:58:24 pm »
Is that a shadow coming up behind Maytag?

bulmabriefs144

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Re: Chapter 48: Discussion
« Reply #84 on: June 06, 2017, 07:39:01 pm »
This is what happens when you don't go with the blessing of your benefactor.

They could have arranged a ride with Melter, maybe gotten some more info from Lehm, and had a nice "chat" with Marce. Now they have to wander the land on foot.

Well, unless Miss Kitty can manufacture a boat they can sail on. Hey Brion, is there a size or duration limit on the summons she can create? We know they can't be weapons, but well, nobody would know this stuff but you.

Also, everyone read this. https://faculty.washington.edu/smcohen/320/cave.htm The whole thing about seeing images.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2017, 10:48:57 am by bulmabriefs144 »
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

sunphoenix

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Re: Chapter 48: Discussion
« Reply #85 on: June 07, 2017, 12:29:20 pm »
"Wherever you think your going sweety... you can't get there from here!!!!"

But seriously, why do I find seeing that little bit of Maytag's pretty blonde hair peeking out at the nape of the neck of her mask so darn cute!?!
"...no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free.  No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything - you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is Kill him." - Robert A. Heinlein


SAGG

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Re: Chapter 48: Discussion
« Reply #86 on: June 09, 2017, 01:16:26 am »
Does Maytag have that gold with her? I don't see it....

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Re: Chapter 48: Discussion
« Reply #87 on: June 14, 2017, 07:35:34 pm »
How sad for Eye. I have this terrible feeling she'll either go back to being isolated, or for some reason, die. Surely she can't continue to roam free, even with her "cat"?  :-\

mittfh

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Re: Chapter 48: Discussion
« Reply #88 on: June 16, 2017, 02:01:24 pm »
I wonder if Eye's fear aura (for want of a better term) is completely and utterly autonomous, or if it's possible with some training to 'feel' it and learn to exercise at least some degree of control over it. Having been stuck in that one room with the cat-thing would have led her to believe the former, but what if that isn't the case?

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Re: Chapter 48: Discussion
« Reply #89 on: June 17, 2017, 10:21:49 pm »
It just occurred to me: Maytag is the safest person in that world at the moment, right? Nothing that can try to harm her can approach her with Eye around. Going back to my question about her having the gold, this sure can come in handy in case thieves want to take it. Hmm--that's one of the reasons Maytag took Eye with her, didn't she....?  8)