Author Topic: Chapter 47: Discussion  (Read 28634 times)

bulmabriefs144

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Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
« Reply #90 on: January 13, 2017, 07:41:20 pm »
Interesting fact.  :'(

Look at the eyes when she appears first. Then look closer. They aren't actually eyes at all.

They're two Qualia. We have the main body, and the squidlike tentacles at the edges.
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

SirBananaPie

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Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
« Reply #91 on: January 16, 2017, 05:40:19 am »
I wonder if "The Dark Cell's Third Phase, Pt.II" means that phase 3 has a second part or if it merely means that this is part 2 of the phase 3 storyline.

Also, I'm fairly new, so I haven't read most of the discussions here, but I was wondering what has been discussed already regarding trying to use mechanical objects for help? What if two persons enter dark cell, but only one goes to phase 3 and the other one has the task of shoving that person further by using a long broom? The person in phase 3 could be on wheels.

Does the Flipside world have any kind of device like our cars that could go on and on regardless of what kind of illusions the persons inside are being put under?

Or maybe they could create a really long conveyor belt, shove it inside so that only the part with the crank sticks out and have someone ride it while other persons (or even some magic) turn the crank.

Was any of this discussed somewhere already? Because it's really difficult to find since chapter discussions are always about all kinds of things happening there.

And why are the beings controlling dark cell using only illusions anyway? Wouldn't it be smarter to just disintegrate anyone who gets too far? Or are they just playing around with their prey and phase 10 is actually really deadly?

bulmabriefs144

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Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
« Reply #92 on: January 16, 2017, 05:33:04 pm »
I think you should do a quick read-through to get up to speed. You should really start with Book 0, as it explains how magic works.

Uhhh yea it was discussed. The inner parts of the Dark Cell had a slight slope, so a ramp or catapult is out. They also tried stuff like spelunking from above. Didn't work.

From what I can gather, the Dark Cell is not a weapon, but a sort of simulation. The simulation basically prevents escape from itself by impeding progress. It doesn't really have any capacity to disintegrate (this takes high energy). That said, I have a feeling things are going to get very strange if May passes the boundary of the Third Phase.

Remember May. "Courage to strengthen, fire to blind, music to dazzle,  and iron to bind."

"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

SirBananaPie

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Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
« Reply #93 on: January 17, 2017, 06:57:44 am »
Yeah, I know about the slope, but it's just a slight one, so there shouldn't be a problem walking all the way to Phase 3 and have someone push you into it with a broom while you're on wheels, because the broom will push you regardless of a tiny slope.

Also a conveyor belt doesn't care about a small slope. Unless the belt has no friction whatsoever, but it would just be stupid to use a material like that.

But I will read book 0 next, thanks for hinting at it. I don't remember May's quote though.

Regarding the current page:
I wonder if Maytag took the knife in there because her girlfriend has super-strong subconscious reflexes to do perfect counters. Maybe she will counter May's attempt to stab herself. Yes, the Split Rose is a style to prevent yourself from getting hurt, but maybe the fact that it's a pacifist style is enough to have Bern act.

sunphoenix

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Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
« Reply #94 on: January 17, 2017, 04:57:26 pm »
I'm not sure what Maytag is trying to learn about herself by taking a weapon with her.... though as a side note ~ did Lehm and his cronies leave her actual jester suit back where she was? Cause her magical jester suit has NO LACK of weapons... if I recall correctly her suit has like 100 stilettos and various potions! So why would she even need a table knife?

But besides that is she going to give the knife to fake Bern and ask her to end her life if she is going to abandon her... she would rather be dead than be without her Bern... or is she going to shank the fakes Bern to prove to herself this reality is Not real?

I'm totally in the dark on what her intentions are....!!!
"...no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free.  No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything - you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is Kill him." - Robert A. Heinlein


bulmabriefs144

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Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
« Reply #95 on: January 17, 2017, 09:12:26 pm »
I have a feeling she'll do nothing (it's complicated). Because the knife is not a weapon. 

Stumped? Reread the long string of links I left earlier. There is something specific weighing on her mind, and the knife is basically there to reveal to herself what kind of person she is. It's basically the Sword of Shannara.

http://flipside.keenspot.com/comic.php?i=3053

This. "If only there was a way to make conditioning stronger." Conditioning becomes stronger when the subconscious becomes aware that what is given to it is at odds. "I will ignore this and keep walking" is marginally effective. "(I know this is untrue, so I have no reason to pay attention)" is super effective.

 
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

Kiran

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Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
« Reply #96 on: January 19, 2017, 12:11:01 am »
So a small quiz?

What body part May cut or injured with that knife?

Eyes?
Ears?
Or a finger she cut earlier in the comic to save Bern as a reminder?

SirBananaPie

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Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
« Reply #97 on: January 19, 2017, 02:04:52 am »
Okaaayy.... could it be that Phase 2 conditioned her to move forward while being in pain? And Phase 1 conditioned her to move forward while being afraid? Huh. Interesting.

bulmabriefs144

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Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
« Reply #98 on: January 19, 2017, 07:08:55 am »
I think Corona used pain before. This is different.

Bern would care.

This sets up a Morton's Fork (a situation where two events lead to the same result or conclusion) when either the program knows this and gets her to act like Bern, invalidating the challenge by making her stop talking about breaking up. Or she doesn't say anything different because mercy isn't programmed in, invalidating the challenge because this is not the real Bern.

In fact, the more she goes, the more her subconscious realizes that Bern loves her. Either this clone reflects this, or she knows that she can walk on past.
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

phillip1882

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Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
« Reply #99 on: January 19, 2017, 08:09:48 am »
oh geez i think she removed her own eyes. gross! and painful!
there are two ways to be a patriot. the first is to join the military. the second is to convince the government that use of military force is unnecessary. the second is much more difficult but also more rewarding.

monimoni

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Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
« Reply #100 on: January 19, 2017, 03:42:09 pm »
oh geez i think she removed her own eyes. gross! and painful!

Why would she though? Wouldn't it be like with the helmet, but permanent? In any case, is May really so determined to do this for Lehm?
I'm confuses as to how she cut herself, looks like it happened just before phase 3. Is it some different conditioning that makes her walk?

bulmabriefs144

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Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
« Reply #101 on: January 19, 2017, 06:34:50 pm »
oh geez i think she removed her own eyes. gross! and painful!

I don't think she removed anything. But I do think she slashed at her face.

Quote
Is it some different conditioning that makes her walk?

It's not conditioning. As I've been saying (you guys don't listen), there are other approaches to despair than simply getting used to it (conditioning).

One of them is distracting yourself (arguably what May is doing). Another is changing your negative filter to a positive one (basically, seeing a bright side of a situation). Another is to basically expose the lie of negative thoughts (looking for proof from one's past that, no you haven't "never been loved"). Another is solving the actual problems causing the despair (this one can be difficult if you are stuck, it typically requires the person be fairly healthy).
« Last Edit: January 19, 2017, 06:41:20 pm by bulmabriefs144 »
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

weirdguy

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Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
« Reply #102 on: January 20, 2017, 10:19:32 am »
Seriously? The Vash the Stampede gambit?

Kiran

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Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
« Reply #103 on: January 20, 2017, 12:04:07 pm »
So the eyes got out...
Ouch, May looks so much creepy...
Seeing May smile I think her goal here is something else completely than moving forward with the injury and earplugs, trying to force this qualia being into acting its role as Bern who still dumps her while not giving a damn about her injury which she should, could really make May's subconcious realise this is all fake?
I don't think so.

bulmabriefs144

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Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
« Reply #104 on: January 20, 2017, 03:35:59 pm »
Quote
Seeing May smile I think her goal here is something else completely than moving forward with the injury and earplugs, trying to force this qualia being into acting its role as Bern who still dumps her while not giving a damn about her injury which she should, could really make May's subconcious realise this is all fake?

There is something more to this plan, yes.

Also, I hope she gets her eyes back (or a substitute) when this is all done. Because this is kinda pointless if she doesn't actually know what's beyond this. It might be pointless anyway.
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

monimoni

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Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
« Reply #105 on: January 20, 2017, 05:10:20 pm »
What the..? So May is completely crazy, confirmed. I dont get it still, how is this different from wearing the helmet? Guess we shall find out.

oh geez i think she removed her own eyes. gross! and painful!

I don't think she removed anything. But I do think she slashed at her face.

Quote
Is it some different conditioning that makes her walk?

It's not conditioning. As I've been saying (you guys don't listen), there are other approaches to despair than simply getting used to it (conditioning).

One of them is distracting yourself (arguably what May is doing). Another is changing your negative filter to a positive one (basically, seeing a bright side of a situation). Another is to basically expose the lie of negative thoughts (looking for proof from one's past that, no you haven't "never been loved"). Another is solving the actual problems causing the despair (this one can be difficult if you are stuck, it typically requires the person be fairly healthy).
It's more about not getting it than not listening.

SirBananaPie

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Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
« Reply #106 on: January 20, 2017, 11:00:51 pm »
Quote
Seeing May smile I think her goal here is something else completely than moving forward with the injury and earplugs, trying to force this qualia being into acting its role as Bern who still dumps her while not giving a damn about her injury which she should, could really make May's subconcious realise this is all fake?

There is something more to this plan, yes.

Also, I hope she gets her eyes back (or a substitute) when this is all done. Because this is kinda pointless if she doesn't actually know what's beyond this. It might be pointless anyway.
Well, this is a world where even resurrection is possible. Also she already got her arm healed after letting Mary eat it, so getting her eyes back should be easy.

Still.... so creepy, they way she looks. >_<

sunphoenix

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Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
« Reply #107 on: January 21, 2017, 12:16:32 am »
hmmm... no.  I think Maytag has found a deeper truth... and is relying on this.

I'll explain.. does anyone remember the novel and movie called "Sphere"?

In the story earth undersea miners discover a spaceship of supposedly alien origin embedded in millions of years of sea coral.  Having been there longer than the dinosaurs, funny thing is its controls and accommodations are all written in modern English and clearly made for human usage!  For all purposes the ship seems to be made with earth technology.. albeit centuries in advance of modern technology... even the processor chips are stamped with Texas Instruments logo.  Clearly its from some distant future possibly.. a time machine of some sort, but the crew is missing and all evidence of what happened to them is gone as well.  The only out of the ordinary anomaly ~ besides the ship's presence at all, is in the hold... a large 20'ft sphere of some mirrored shimmering unknown metal.  It has no seams and does not appear to have been formed by any tool known to man and seems totally out of place in the riveted clearly constructed hull of the human space/time ship.  But one of the researchers makes an astute and creepy observation.  The sphere is resting in the metal hold its mirrored surface reflecting the surrounding of the vessel... EXCEPT the reflections of the the living humans in the room observing the sphere.  Light reflects off its metallic surface.. but none of the researchers reflections appear on the surface of the metallic sphere.  The researcher comments... 'its as if the sphere chooses not to show our reflections... that denotes choice and a controlling  intelligence.'

My point...

I think Maytag has considered why the Dark Chamber-stage three seems to change to always; no matter what they do, reflect a reality of despair and hopelessness.  If it only reacted one way to a person entering.. they should technically be able to find a way around it.. the mask should have worked.. but it didn't because the chamber modified how it  forced its reality upon the person entering.  To change to adjust denotes.. some intelligence behind the effects of the third stage!  Meaning someone is perhaps controlling it or directing it!  If that is the case... then THEY are who one has to be outwited.. not the chamber! 

So why is her being 'seemingly' blind any different from the helmet... because the intelligence directing the chamber will observe she is blind.. and think that route may be ignored to try something else ~ when in truth she is not blind.. she is bluffing the intelligence controlling the room to reveal itself and its true nature.. which is why she is smiling she is gambling and has made a bluff... and is trying to see if the intelligence controlling the chamber will ante up and unwittingly reveal itself...!
« Last Edit: January 21, 2017, 12:22:51 am by sunphoenix »
"...no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free.  No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything - you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is Kill him." - Robert A. Heinlein


SAGG

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Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
« Reply #108 on: January 21, 2017, 11:49:26 am »
This...is an excellent observation. Maytag's faking it...

phillip1882

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Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
« Reply #109 on: January 21, 2017, 12:52:44 pm »
i don't think she's faking it, look at the blood. i do believe she has a  plan beyond just removing her senses.
there are two ways to be a patriot. the first is to join the military. the second is to convince the government that use of military force is unnecessary. the second is much more difficult but also more rewarding.

bulmabriefs144

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Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
« Reply #110 on: January 22, 2017, 12:11:00 pm »
Phillip, the fact that she has ear plugs makes me skeptical. I think she could have cut her eardrums, if she had a knife like this handy. The earplugs and the knife strike me as props to fit the narrative. 

The reason she is able to take a step here while a man-made mask didn't do the trick is because she is maintaining this with her own willpower. Otherwise, even while blind, I think the Storm would make her see the event. Of course, that might also be a trick (convincing her subconscious that it is a trick by being able to see without eyes).   

Today at church, I actually started thinking about this (one of the songs choked me up, and tears started running my mascara). I started fixating on Mays smile and the blood reminded me of tears. All of this made for an interesting sermon, as I was holding back an urge to smile. Basically, unlike the person who suicided himself, May is able to keep herself happy (defending from despair) and either naturally or purely mentally, is inducing pain and sadness to shut out the other crap from the room.

The only question remains whether May did this with her knife or her mind, but we shall figure that out.   

Update: Base on what fake Bern said, we can conclude that it is not in fact as simple as cutting out her eyes.

Which means that yeah, either the Sphere mind-shifting theory is the case (she's faking), or May has some other secret, and really did cut her eyes out but only to distract from her real trick.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2017, 02:10:03 pm by bulmabriefs144 »
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

SirBananaPie

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Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
« Reply #111 on: January 26, 2017, 04:26:11 am »
Go Go Go Maytag! ^^ God, I can't wait for this to resolve! Part of me wants to stop coming here for every update, so I can read it all in one go, because of course this scene has to happen in slow motion, but on the other hand I can't stop myself. Oh well, when I was a kid I watched some cartoon series that continued once per week for half a year, so I should be able to endure the tension for a couple of pages. :-)

bulmabriefs144

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Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
« Reply #112 on: January 26, 2017, 05:45:34 am »
[SuperSeriousReporterMode]
Mr Pie, you're new here. Care to give a statement on what you believe May is doing? How is it she is calmly walking past in a system designed to cause her to despair? What are your thoughts on this matter?
[/SuperSeriousReporterMode]

Inquiring minds deserve to know. :D
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

sunphoenix

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Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
« Reply #113 on: January 26, 2017, 05:11:05 pm »
Hmmmm.... Now... I'm not sold on the sphere theory I proposed. I think 'crazy-spice' the psychopath girl who wants to hurt/experiment on Maytag... (can't remember the crazy bitches name ) hit on something with Maytag. She mentioned Maytag not letting her mask slip.  She intimates that Maytag in truth underneath the 'masks' she wears she is coldly unemotional without empathy or emotion not that she can't feel ~like Melter, but she can choose not to feel as THAT is her natural state. I think Maytag is using her psychological 'abnormality' to her advantage here.... the eyes and earplugs are merely distractions.... for the force I think she believes is controlling the dark cell.
"...no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free.  No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything - you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is Kill him." - Robert A. Heinlein


bulmabriefs144

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Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
« Reply #114 on: January 27, 2017, 01:52:27 am »
So its her true self. It think of this as a sorta of wall she is making, using her own reality. Kinda a power of sortapositivethinkingonlyitsinsane. Also, pretty sure most people in "too much pain to think straight" do not have that kind of grin. Like, ever. Sorry fake Bern, whatever the answer, that's not it.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2017, 08:26:34 pm by bulmabriefs144 »
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

monimoni

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Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
« Reply #115 on: January 29, 2017, 01:25:13 pm »
That, and a normal person would be on the floor screaming. May is getting some kind of pleasure out of this, just like phase 2. Should it be stated again what a freak she is?

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Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
« Reply #116 on: January 30, 2017, 10:56:23 am »
Ah...I see! She did mention the pain in Phase 2 felt very real :)

Edit: I smell a Flipside Creepypasta...
« Last Edit: February 01, 2017, 01:14:05 pm by MaronaPossessed »

monimoni

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Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
« Reply #117 on: February 01, 2017, 03:49:48 pm »
Well,  I hope she gets her eyes back shortly after that. Otherwise, it's just not worth it, Maytag, damn. Cool idea, though.
 I'm surprised they haven't thought of anything to make conditioning stronger before, or even to block your senses (i.e. that you dont have to be blind to not be able to see!). Granted, only Maytag could probably pull this off, but Corona was also able to go through phase 2 for 7 (!) years..
Also, I hope she wont need eyesight for the great revealead truth.

MaronaPossessed

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Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
« Reply #118 on: February 01, 2017, 05:48:42 pm »
Well,  I hope she gets her eyes back shortly after that. Otherwise, it's just not worth it, Maytag, damn. Cool idea, though.
 I'm surprised they haven't thought of anything to make conditioning stronger before, or even to block your senses (i.e. that you dont have to be blind to not be able to see!). Granted, only Maytag could probably pull this off, but Corona was also able to go through phase 2 for 7 (!) years..
Also, I hope she wont need eyesight for the great revealead truth.

I think there's a good chance she can get her eyes back. 1. Crest's mom was blind but thanks to sorcery, she is no longer blind. 2. Again, thanks to sorcery, they were able to regenerate a new arm for Maytag when it was eaten by Bloody Mary.

bulmabriefs144

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Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
« Reply #119 on: February 02, 2017, 06:38:03 am »
Read that last line. She didnt just condition, she substituted a stronger feeling. So this means if she comes again, this time with eyes, she will be able to see and still walk past, so long as whatever feeling (say love or rage or happiness) is able to completely overwhelm the despair.
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison