Author Topic: Chapter 47: Discussion  (Read 15803 times)

SAGG

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Chapter 47: Discussion
« on: October 10, 2016, 07:06:44 am »
Who's this again? I know I've seen her before....

mittfh

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Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2016, 03:19:41 pm »
Who's this again? I know I've seen her before....

Courtesy of the Chapter List, this one's "The Dark Cell's Third Phase, Pt.II", so she's Corona, Lehm's glamorous assistant and current Dark Cell Progress Record Holder...

SAGG

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Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2016, 06:15:36 am »
Oh, okay, thank you....

mittfh

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Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2016, 01:06:04 pm »
....and we're onto Page 1, with the incongruous sight of Lehm, Corona and Maytag having a nice cup of tea while leaning on a giant plush teddy bear wearing a very tall and thin top hat...

monimoni

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Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2016, 01:31:31 pm »
And so it goes. Well, that's not too far from the truth now is it?

sunphoenix

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Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2016, 07:36:25 pm »
Ouch! That's messed up! Poor Maytag!
"...no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free.  No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything - you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is Kill him." - Robert A. Heinlein


bulmabriefs144

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Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2016, 09:45:10 pm »
And so it goes. Well, that's not too far from the truth now is it?

Hmmm, I'd say the opposite.

Bern has effectively cheated on her. I think she would understand where she is coming from, since she is not a huge hypocrite.
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

monimoni

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Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
« Reply #7 on: October 17, 2016, 02:27:04 pm »
Cant wait for the next page!

bulmabriefs144

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Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2016, 03:50:48 pm »
This feels like a good idea in theory, but a stupid idea in actual practice. There is something to be said for discipline. There is also something to be said for finding a method that actually works. If they brought May there to be a crabon copy, there was no point to it.

Also, seriously? Subjecting yourself to hell for five straight years? I know she's into Lehm, but he doesn't even seem to care about her.

I think the actual secret to this something more along the lines of substitution. As in, she knows that Bern wouldn't tell her that, so anyone else's disapproval wouldn't matter. So she simply changes the nightmare to something she can shrug off.
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

monimoni

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Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
« Reply #9 on: October 21, 2016, 12:08:58 pm »
^ Agreed. This lady is nuts. Just the thought that you have to go through phase 2 again and again ...
So in theory you could accept the reality that the third phase gives you, say in advance? Say she could somehow replace her current "reality" with the one where she's been already dumped. Is that where you're pointing at? That could be something, since I don't know what else besides losing Bernadette could be a nightmare for Maytag.
Another thing I'm curious about is what happens after you're "beaten" by dark cell, i mean, how do you get out of there? At what point does dark cell "decide" it's time to go? Do you magically wake up outside?

bulmabriefs144

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Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
« Reply #10 on: October 23, 2016, 01:10:45 pm »
Well, crazy lady has a sort of grappling weapon to fish people out in the earlier stages, but phase 3 and beyond? I think the the thing just boots you out. I think the dream idea they mentioned earlier is accurate. The pain doesn't last, the fear goes away, and anything you carry becomes part of the reality.

If you get defeated, you probably panic and the thing fades out.

If this is the case, then having a better dream than getting rejected all of the time should eventually make a difference. Crazy Woman (that's Corona's name now) is thinking of "getting used" to the bad. What she should be doing is like this Joel Osteen says. Dream Bigger. To be more positive, to fight the fear that tells her that she'll be rejected with what she knows about Bern.

Once again, I apologize for Joel Osteen.

"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

monimoni

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Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
« Reply #11 on: October 24, 2016, 01:33:22 pm »
The problem with that, if I get it right, is that you can't, under any circumstances, remember anything from before entering dark cell. However it seems to have a "rejection" theme. I'm wondering if it would change anything if you were to convince yourself that what happened in phase 3 is real, and instead of visualizing it over and over and walking, just let it go, accept it and move on. For crazy lady this might be difficult since she has to see Lehm everyday, but Maytag has no contact with Bernadette. You would have to be cold, with incredible control over your emotions, and slightly crazy, so Maytag seems like the right person. I mean, she's been chopping bodyparts like it's no big deal, resisting all kinds of magic effects, and once she's even threatened to kill Bernadette which was being used as a human shield by a rapist, if I remember correctly. I guess it depends how badly she wants to go through with it.

Also, this just came to mind: so Lehm Rhodes said that they created a person with no feelings (Melter) specifically for phase 1, however later Maytag proved that it's actually a physical test rather than an emotional one, so Melter could just as well pass phase 1 with enough training. Then phase 2 is just.. sucking it up and moving forward. What would Melter see in phase 3?
« Last Edit: October 24, 2016, 02:03:23 pm by monimoni »

bulmabriefs144

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Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
« Reply #12 on: October 24, 2016, 10:05:38 pm »
It would have to not about remembering or knowing. It would be a sort of believing without having even the proof that you have inside. Sort of like if you have suddenly forgotten all the happy times during a breakup. In this situation, you actually have a similar thing going on, the depression overshadows the happy memories and you lose your head.

But you still believe in a chance for either other without remembering anything. Sort of "I wanted to be with her for a reason. I don't remember that now, but I believe this isn't her. She isn't this hateful person who wants me harm. I believe in her even if things feel tough now."

A sort of unconscious devotion. Reminding yourself doesn't work. Trying to convince yourself this is a dream doesn't work. Conditioning "works" but only by being completely stubborn and crazy (and I have a feeling this isn't how May works). It isn't about remembering, it's about her saying, "no matter how many tries, I won't give up on you." Despair is not defeated by memory, its opposite is hope. And love.

About this approach, this is an extremely bad idea. May is used to being alone, it wouldn't make her upset, not long term. She could cope. But May has Bern as her better half. She was cold and uncaring as a person, before she met Bern. This would be a regression, not a progression.

 Also, it wouldn't work. If she removed one fear, another would take its place, and another and another. If phase 3 was ignoring things and moving forward, phase 3 would be like phase 2. Corona says that they were able to move "halfway" through phase 3, after 5 years. I do not believe this is actually the case. She has no way of knowing this without crossing into the next phase, does she? In fact, if it is truly despair, the area actually has NO space. Meaning if you tried to bluster through like Corona, the illusion would likely reappear again and again. If you killed your emotions, the illusion would disappear and then you would walk and walk forever (replacing emotional despair with limitless space until you give up). This is not something you walk past at all, this is something you overcome.   

It may be hard without her memory, but she has to believe, even when she can't remember why.

Update: I guess if I had to imagine this I would look at it as two squares of paint next to each other. One is black, the other white. They can't turn the other one entirely black or white, but they can manage grey. The Dark Cell acting with despair on May is like black getting dumped on white. "The world sucks, politicians are evil, and there are people out there that want to hurt me. And I'll never be loved." This is usually how it plays out, because it is difficult to keep a positive attitude when you see depressing things all around you. But this is precisely what May has to do, to turn the black grey with her extreme whiteness. Kinda like this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuC9yxJ6_pY

« Last Edit: October 25, 2016, 06:12:54 am by bulmabriefs144 »
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

monimoni

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Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
« Reply #13 on: October 26, 2016, 01:59:12 pm »
Okay, I see. True, I forgot where she said she's halfway through.
Heh, May is on to something.

mittfh

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Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
« Reply #14 on: October 26, 2016, 02:45:48 pm »
Okay, I see. True, I forgot where she said she's halfway through.
Heh, May is on to something.

Heh, May can be quite devious - but given Corona's been at it for five years, she's probably stuck in a proverbial rut, so needs to be shaken out of what is now her comfort zone. So May getting under her skin (so to speak) is exactly what Corona needs if she's to get any further in The Dark Cell.

Stargoat

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Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
« Reply #15 on: October 28, 2016, 09:17:33 am »
I wonder if Maytag is being a big bluffer.

bulmabriefs144

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Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
« Reply #16 on: October 29, 2016, 07:54:59 am »
I think May is going to use Corona as a guinea pig, set her up for completing the 3rd phase and then see what happens to her.
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

vintage

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Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
« Reply #17 on: November 04, 2016, 07:17:34 am »
On page 11 - does Maytag have a birthmark on her lip? I've never noticed before.

bulmabriefs144

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Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
« Reply #18 on: November 04, 2016, 11:30:00 am »
She has what appears to be a benign mole on her lip.

I believe Maytag has the answer, given that she isn't completely freaking out here. But conditioning definitely isn't it. Getting used to bad stuff happening only works in the short term. I think the answer has something to do with what May said a page before about relying on the unconscious mind.
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

monimoni

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Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
« Reply #19 on: November 06, 2016, 06:51:43 am »
Maybe the "mole" is just a sparkle (implying her lips are shiny)?

Why is she helping out these freaks again?
« Last Edit: November 06, 2016, 06:54:02 am by monimoni »

bulmabriefs144

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Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
« Reply #20 on: November 06, 2016, 05:53:05 pm »
Too much contrast.

Mostly money. But she's also on some level curious as to whether this can be done.
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

sunphoenix

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Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
« Reply #21 on: November 07, 2016, 06:58:09 am »
I can't tell honestly if Maytag is shocked at Lehm's statement or is she just getting moist thinking about how long his fingers are! :)

{I've got such a dirty little mind...}
"...no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free.  No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything - you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is Kill him." - Robert A. Heinlein


mittfh

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Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
« Reply #22 on: November 07, 2016, 02:15:41 pm »
I can't tell honestly if Maytag is shocked at Lehm's statement or is she just getting moist thinking about how long his fingers are! :)

{I've got such a dirty little mind...}

Given May's figured out that Corona loves Lehm (hence the knife twisting on pp6-7), it shouldn't really be a surprise to her that the feelings are mutual.

Hmm... I wonder how far Lehm actually got within The Dark Cell - assuming he's actually had a go...

MaronaPossessed

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Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
« Reply #23 on: November 09, 2016, 11:40:40 am »
Hey Brion if you're going through something, take it easy alright?

bulmabriefs144

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Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
« Reply #24 on: November 09, 2016, 12:16:07 pm »
Awwww, thanks Maytag!  :-* Funny that she has no idea what she's cheering us up about.

This election has screwed with alot of ppl. I don't mind the candidate (except that he can't even take power without answering court charges), but my friends are very upset.

"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

MaronaPossessed

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Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
« Reply #25 on: November 09, 2016, 01:29:20 pm »
Awwww, thanks Maytag!  :-* Funny that she has no idea what she's cheering us up about.

This election has screwed with alot of ppl. I don't mind the candidate (except that he can't even take power without answering court charges), but my friends are very upset.
I am upset to be honest but I ain't gonna let that change me or my thoughts about this country. People are already going crazy and moving out of the country. Really? It's only been one day. You guys have more anxiety problems than I do if that's the case.

I'm glad this election is over though. What better way to destroy the connection between your friends and your loved ones than politics? It's been stressful and I have to say the worst one ever.

http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sp9eoj (more thoughts)

But I don't respect Donald Trump. He has to earn it and I treat everyone equally, no matter the fame or position. You earn respect, not buy it.

bulmabriefs144

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Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
« Reply #26 on: November 11, 2016, 04:31:59 am »
I honestly dont he "bought" anyones respect. If anything, for awhile we got letters from him explaining his stance and asking for contributions. He sold respect, not bought it. I know youve been told alot by the media and stuff about how this was a corrupt event. But he actually won to alot of minority votes vs other Republican types. As explain in Armageddon: How Trump Can Win, I think it was called, he is popular because he is an outsider candidate, and because  people are increasingly sick of the establishment. This is guy who made his own money through hotels and casinos, versus making it but taxes and corrupt politics.

If I may, I'm going to draw the comparison between this and It's A Wonderful Life. We see the protagonists cheap housing thing, and we see Potts with his strip clubs and casinos. The world does need cheap houses. But the clean cut town they introduced doesnt work quite that way in real life. The real life equivalent is Habitat for Humanity, which is fine except it takes unspoiled forests and turns them into low rent housing. We need the idealistic SJW, but ultimately we also need a person like Potts to set up things people want to do, or we have plenty of housing but no industry, and poor ppl on govt assistance because there is no work.

Moving on...

May hit the nail on the head. The reason they know about the distance of the 3rd phase is because people walked past it. And died on the 4th phase. If I had to guess, they found a way of ignoring their despair and continued on. But if I had to venture a guess? I think the distance is actually a trap. You aren't supposed to bypass your despair. You are supposed to face it. And overcome it by proving it wrong or something. Not doing so, activates the trap.

The other reason they possibly died? The despair caused them to commit suicide. But I honestly can't imagine this happening, since the memories come back after you leave the Dark Cell.

Story Update: May, c'mon, it's obvious that the thing we don't know anything about is obviously an oppressive situation. We must prevent this injustice at all costs. Especially since we didn't bother to research the issue in full. Totally worth creating monsters for test subjects. Because, ummm the truth.  ;D Also, how do we know that Crazy Cook Lady isn't the cause of the Qualia?
« Last Edit: November 16, 2016, 03:47:05 pm by bulmabriefs144 »
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

sunphoenix

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Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
« Reply #27 on: November 17, 2016, 05:45:11 am »
If Lehm is concerned that humanity is someone's pawn.. he must be holding something back that he knows about the Qualia.  Yes, they were manufactured, yes they are totally.. or HE assumes they are 'totally' unknown to mankind in general especially the magicians that use them... but we have been shown storywise no proof someone is controlling them or using this knowledge to manipulate the world...

Or is that really true? Think about how Qtalda {coincidence in her name being derivative?}.. uses her Mortis spell... resemble a nano-disassembler swarm to anyone else?  And what are the Qualia.. about the size of a nanoswarm.. and if Lehm is correct~ all pervasive in the world's environment?  Maybe Qtalda IS that manipulator behind the scenes?  Did she make the Qualia... not likely.. but she may have an understanding of how to control them... SHE may not be the only one who can do that or is using the Qualia to control society!

No. Lehm IS holding something back he is not telling.. he's intentionally NOT being specific.. but I'm not so sure Lehm is the only one who has learned about the Qualia... someone MAY be using them to their advantage in ways that may have only been hinted at thus far in the story...
« Last Edit: November 17, 2016, 05:50:34 am by sunphoenix »
"...no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free.  No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything - you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is Kill him." - Robert A. Heinlein


monimoni

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Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
« Reply #28 on: November 17, 2016, 11:50:11 am »
What bothers me about Mary is that he never really explained what was the point of the regeneration experiment. And if it was a failed one, why is she still alive? Am I missing something?

sunphoenix

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Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
« Reply #29 on: November 17, 2016, 02:37:24 pm »
Clearly...Mary is an attempt to breach stage 2: Pain.... but maytag learned it's not really injury you need to overcome. Just like melter is clearly and attempt to breach stage 1: fear.... by making someone emotionless... but again may tag figured out it not the emotional stress that is the problem but the physical stress of making your body obey when every emotion ration is to flee.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2016, 02:40:11 pm by sunphoenix »
"...no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free.  No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything - you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is Kill him." - Robert A. Heinlein