Author Topic: Chapter 46: Discussion  (Read 30869 times)

bulmabriefs144

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Re: Chapter 46: Discussion
« Reply #150 on: August 16, 2016, 09:40:36 am »
I dunno about that.

Our current criminal justice system places reasonably nonviolent criminals in the same cell with violent ones. There is no separation contrary to what one might think. As a result, typically minor felons come out hardened, as a result of being raped or abused, and clean felons come out addicted.

Here, the choice and incentive system means nonviolent ones shy away from the risk of battle despite the fact that it can get them out quicker. The violent ones embrace the Colosseum for its ability to get them out quicker and the relative self-determination. This is just. Our justice system is not, as it mixes nonviolent with violent (in fact the maximum security sometimes fudges information to keep their prisons less overfilled), whereas this neatly separates prisoners.

Now, what about the other aspect, reintroduction to society? Well, it helps here too. If you are extremely violent you get penalized. If you get penalized enough, you get D Rank and then death matches. There is some amount of self-enforcement here, as the most violent and brutal people will volunteer to be on the other end of this. Likewise, the best fighters, the most brutal, are sent to S-Rank where it is high likelihood you will accidentally die, because everyone is fighting no-holds-barred at full strength. Between these two extremes are A, B, and C Rank. In these three, lie the majority of the criminals. They are here and love to fight, but also teachable. What is the first thing they are taught?

Restraint. That extreme violence is punished, and that they must fight without killing.

Recall that this country is a constitutional anarchy. If you want to do gladiatorial style fighting in the cities, there is probably an acceptable outlet for it. Mass murder, on the other hand, is force. Force is not allowed.     
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

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Re: Chapter 46: Discussion
« Reply #151 on: August 16, 2016, 01:27:48 pm »
So, Bern is a violent criminal, the same for Polly? Bern wanted to help her father. Polly's there for Bern. Warden, your logic, however well-thought out, is flawed. Your country is flawed and screwed-up, the same for their system. Forcing them to fight for their freedom really does nothing to rehabilitate the violent criminals. If anything, it reinforces their violent tendencies. Screwy, that's what it is, screwy....

monimoni

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Re: Chapter 46: Discussion
« Reply #152 on: August 16, 2016, 02:40:52 pm »
As far as I remember, there were different ways to pay off marks that you could choose from. Bern's situation is a bit different in that she never really had a choice, since Polly insisted she pay off half her marks. The condition was that they take the Colosseum route. It was kind of a mistake/bad luck that she ended up here. I would rather see her doing community service of some sort.

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Re: Chapter 46: Discussion
« Reply #153 on: August 18, 2016, 09:32:39 am »
So, Bern is a violent criminal, the same for Polly? Bern wanted to help her father. Polly's there for Bern. Warden, your logic, however well-thought out, is flawed. Your country is flawed and screwed-up, the same for their system. Forcing them to fight for their freedom really does nothing to rehabilitate the violent criminals. If anything, it reinforces their violent tendencies. Screwy, that's what it is, screwy....
I don't buy Warden logic either, she and this whole justice system treats the same a person who would willingly and joyfully harm, torture and beat up another human being with a person like Bern(and also Polly in a way)who just forced someone into saving another person life as the big crime while not harming anyone in the process...
Hell in normal case Bern should just get a fine and a time to repay it, either with borrowed money from Polly or as working as bodyguard, than being sent in prison without any kind of fair judgement.
The system is flawed as hell and Warden killing another incompetent corrupt adminsitrator won't make things better if the system is not working in the first place.
Fixing violent criminals by making them spread more violence in fights or in extra night tasks to become sex slaves or to cut or torture others for wealthy sponsors wants and fetishes?
Everything points to idea that Warden is indeed a former prisoner who is either so rich who decided herself to correct and keep the whole system in check, or she has so much marks "earned" during her time that her only real choice as best fighter who can never leave arena now is to be a Warden for the rest of her life.

Also did they forget that Polly for the time of their conversation stays dead and her brain doesn't get needed precious oxygen from some time now?
I know this is magical world but even if they will manage to fix her brain and regenerate all nerves and connections in it due to magical nanites system so it would work properly, but the lack of oxygen time for the brain cells to die can make her completely different person after revival process who can even forget Bern or who she was.

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Re: Chapter 46: Discussion
« Reply #154 on: August 18, 2016, 01:00:04 pm »
Looks as if Bern's about to verbally let the warden have it about the violence subject. Good...

bulmabriefs144

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Re: Chapter 46: Discussion
« Reply #155 on: August 19, 2016, 12:53:54 pm »
So, Bern is a violent criminal, the same for Polly? Bern wanted to help her father. Polly's there for Bern. Warden, your logic, however well-thought out, is flawed. Your country is flawed and screwed-up, the same for their system. Forcing them to fight for their freedom really does nothing to rehabilitate the violent criminals. If anything, it reinforces their violent tendencies. Screwy, that's what it is, screwy....
I don't buy Warden logic either, she and this whole justice system treats the same a person who would willingly and joyfully harm, torture and beat up another human being with a person like Bern(and also Polly in a way)who just forced someone into saving another person life as the big crime while not harming anyone in the process...
Hell in normal case Bern should just get a fine and a time to repay it, either with borrowed money from Polly or as working as bodyguard, than being sent in prison without any kind of fair judgement.
The system is flawed as hell and Warden killing another incompetent corrupt adminsitrator won't make things better if the system is not working in the first place.
Fixing violent criminals by making them spread more violence in fights or in extra night tasks to become sex slaves or to cut or torture others for wealthy sponsors wants and fetishes?
Everything points to idea that Warden is indeed a former prisoner who is either so rich who decided herself to correct and keep the whole system in check, or she has so much marks "earned" during her time that her only real choice as best fighter who can never leave arena now is to be a Warden for the rest of her life.

Also did they forget that Polly for the time of their conversation stays dead and her brain doesn't get needed precious oxygen from some time now?
I know this is magical world but even if they will manage to fix her brain and regenerate all nerves and connections in it due to magical nanites system so it would work properly, but the lack of oxygen time for the brain cells to die can make her completely different person after revival process who can even forget Bern or who she was.

To understand why this is "just" you have to understand the mentality of this government.

Both countries are modern political systems taken to their logical absurdity.

This is a Republican hands-off state, Bern/May's country is a Democratic socialist hands-on state. The absurd degree of the latter is an omnipresent system with grossly high taxes in exchange for free medicine and other services. The former has no taxes, and people are completely free to do anything (including wander around buck naked or engage in weird sex fetishes) provided whatever they do does not force others to do something they don't want, and they have money to pay for it.

Basically, the difference between these two government styles.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vc5Pkikeb4Y

So under this system, if Bern did something nonviolent like steal bread, this would not be a load of marks. What she did was threaten a medic at swordpoint. She also attacked three of the medic's guards. She also asked that a man basically rob from his own coffers to fund free medicine.

Update: I don't think Warden means it is wrong to want peace.

By timid ideals she means...

During Nazi Germany, Austria wanted peace. They got invaded, and had to flee. Saw a movie on it last night, the true story of the Von Trapped family. Poland wanted peace. They got invaded. France's defense sucked. Sorry.

England wanted peace, as in they didn't go around attacking other European countries. But they knew the reality of war. They dug it their heels, and said, "No. We are not going to lose our culture, our truth to the Germans. We are not going to let these guys brutalize our country. They may try, but we're better than that. They knock down our buildings we build them again. Night after night after night. And those of us that can fight back will fight back." America wanted peace. They officially stayed up of the war until Pearl harbor. But they did have some Jewish immigrants, and they did send some munitions under the table from what I hear. And after Pearl Harbor, they did fight back.

A pacifist is one who dislikes violence and bloodshed. A sadist is one who likes it. A realist is one who dislikes it, possibly even as much as the pacifist, but also knows you can't invite thousands of violent people into your country and expect nothing to happen.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2016, 03:08:12 am by bulmabriefs144 »
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

sunphoenix

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Re: Chapter 46: Discussion
« Reply #156 on: August 22, 2016, 09:23:18 am »
^ Tooo TRUE!
"...no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free.  No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything - you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is Kill him." - Robert A. Heinlein


bulmabriefs144

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Re: Chapter 46: Discussion
« Reply #157 on: August 22, 2016, 10:40:11 am »
"How can you train in something you believe to be evil?"

Because there is a difference between using something to defend, and delighting in the suffering of others. If someone learned to use a sword or magic to hunt for good or to defend one's loved ones, we would find no fault in such a use. But a person learning to fight or use magic to burn people to cinder or cut people up for fun... would generally not be seen as a hero or martyr but a psychopath.
Violence should be used only to stop other violence, and mainly when other options are exhausted or there is a state of emergency. When people cause violence on the defenseless, can it ever be called "just"? No, rather, it is just to defend one's self and one's loved ones, and to put down other violence and oppression. Or in legal terms, this is the castle doctrine.
Therefore, justice can be said to be a defensive thing. Justice is the use of power to set right what is wrong.

And words can sometimes stop violence. Especially when there is a cause rather than simple desire to harm.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2016, 10:49:15 am by bulmabriefs144 »
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

sunphoenix

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Re: Chapter 46: Discussion
« Reply #158 on: August 24, 2016, 12:56:05 pm »
I agree with you miss Briefs... but I can see in Bern's eyes the Wardens words about 'See how much trouble you've caused for your friend? How well did you protect her?', and all the things Polly has suffered for Bern's sake MUST weigh heavy on Bern's mind indeed!
"...no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free.  No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything - you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is Kill him." - Robert A. Heinlein


bulmabriefs144

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Re: Chapter 46: Discussion
« Reply #159 on: August 24, 2016, 05:45:05 pm »
Good lord if this doesn't hit home.

I don't normally have to deal with overt violence, but the contradiction thing and the needing help thing.

I have this thing where because I basically had my parents pay off my student loans a bit at a time, I deeply dislike being in someone's debt. Asking for help. I also don't use a credit card. I have conflicting desires of wanting to be independent, but not alone. It seems like other people have a job and a marriage, or a job and friends, and I work hard but nothing happens except working to the point where I have nobody to come home to (too early or too late, and they all have gone home to bed or something). I also try to avoid expenses, and avoid telling people about potential issues, and then BOOM my car breaks down and it's a major issue that I can't afford, so they have to have help because I don't do credit.   

Bern can be straight up pacifist, and develop some nonlethal 100% knockout attack. Or she can just nix that thing and defend people with violence if it comes to that. But it's like Mr Miyagi said "Karate no, safe. Karate yes, safe. Karate mebbe so, sooner or later, get squished."
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

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Re: Chapter 46: Discussion
« Reply #160 on: August 25, 2016, 12:20:24 am »
I'm sorry, but I thought Bern WAS strong myself, based on what we've seen from her adventures. But of course the warden hasn't read them as we have. ;D 

sunphoenix

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Re: Chapter 46: Discussion
« Reply #161 on: August 25, 2016, 07:37:32 pm »
Well I do believe the Warden when she says she KNOWS Bern is strong not weak.. one cannot hold to such a pacifist world-view and not be strong, but what the Warden is getting at is basically Miss Brief's point.. you can't be a warrior maybe... you may fight or not fight..but when you take up the sword.. you have BY -DEFAULT choosen to use lethal force to fight for your beleifs... to look at at it in anyother way is Not respecting the sword of violence.. cause no matter how you use it ...no matter how Well you use it.. it is a Lethal weapon and eventually.. lethal force like it or not will be applied by those that take up the sword or have the sword taken up against them! 

Just like my master told me.. "The art of the sword is not a game.. it is not a sport... it is the art of killing.  I am teaching you how to kill.. if you Ever pick up a sword to use without that clear thought in mind.. whatever your intentions MAY be.. you are not taking responsibility for that Choice YOU made to take up the weapon of lethal force. You are NOT taking responsibility for the lives you are threatening.. you are Not respecting the weight of the decision you have made!  And if I Ever think you are doing THAT..I'll NEVER teach you again!"

That is not to say.. you must kill every time you draw a weapon of lethal force... but you must face that fact... you HAVE chosen to use lethal force and you WILL be held accountable for that choice Regardless of your intentions or your results!
"...no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free.  No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything - you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is Kill him." - Robert A. Heinlein


bulmabriefs144

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Re: Chapter 46: Discussion
« Reply #162 on: August 26, 2016, 02:03:28 pm »
Sorta what I said, and sorta not.

It's like Kenshin Himura. He never holds back, but the difference is that he uses non-lethal weapons or techniques. Not restraint. He is fully himself, which is to say an ex-killer.

He also makes a speech about this same topic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFcxlONaG6I

(13:50 or so)

You learn the fight with the sword without delusions. But this isn't the same as being axe-crazy.

You are using the sword with the idea that this sword fight will end someone's life. Does it always? No, or there would be no Colosseum. No Kendo matches. Etcetera. But without the sense of weight of what you are doing, and commitment to it, you will either do something you regret (by treating it like a game) or you will be defeated by your own ambivalence. This is not to say you must desire to kill, if it ends without such (due to it being training, using safe weapons, or dumb luck) be grateful for the battle not fought. But understand the commitment.

This is similar to marriage or the decision to have children. I fully loathe those who make these decisions lightly. Understand that like with the sword, this is an action with lasting consequences. You are bringing life into the world. You are spending life with another. Not to make the decision half-hearted, but to know what you are getting into. Is every child going to be well raised? Is every marriage going to last? No, but with the attitude that this isn't a serious commitment, you've made it into a joke. The other extreme is Bern's idea where fear prevents you from doing the thing when the time comes.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2016, 02:16:51 pm by bulmabriefs144 »
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

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Re: Chapter 46: Discussion
« Reply #163 on: August 26, 2016, 05:28:59 pm »
I think the point here is there is a difference between violence as a tool and violence as recreation. In that regard, Bern and the Warden both have valid points. The arena partly exists to portray violence as as sport - a form of recreation. The warden insists that it's violence being used as a form of paying the debt to society for crimes. I don't agree with the warden on this point, but I agree that violence can be used as a tool if it is used without evil intent such as protecting someone.

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Re: Chapter 46: Discussion
« Reply #164 on: August 26, 2016, 08:06:18 pm »
About damn time! Give all the awards to the Warden for actually getting something through Bern's thick thick thick skull. lol

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Re: Chapter 46: Discussion
« Reply #165 on: August 27, 2016, 10:28:45 am »
Polly is Soooo pretty! :)
"...no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free.  No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything - you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is Kill him." - Robert A. Heinlein


monimoni

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Re: Chapter 46: Discussion
« Reply #166 on: August 31, 2016, 10:08:22 am »
D'aww, how cute. Interesting how Warden never brought up why somebody like Bernadette would end up in the Colosseum. 

monimoni

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Re: Chapter 46: Discussion
« Reply #167 on: September 02, 2016, 03:43:23 pm »
...seriously? That was it?
I hate to say it, but I absolutely disliked Bern in this arc. Yet again she is rescued by someone else, and then it's over. I hope we will get to see more of Warden, but seems unlikely. Meh.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2016, 03:52:35 pm by monimoni »

sunphoenix

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Re: Chapter 46: Discussion
« Reply #168 on: September 02, 2016, 04:25:41 pm »
I might have liked to see that heartfelt reunion between Bern and Polly... but I'll admit that would be just Fan-Service. 

This chapter has been long and tumultuous ... and I can understand WHY Biron choose this way to get it over with... just a tad abrupt ..but that's ok by me... again a splash page of Bern and Polly Embracing in their reunion would have set it off so an ending like this would have been ok... but overall I'm cool with it anyways.

Also I think Biron's point is that Bernadette though an interesting character.. one I like a lot.. she is NOT the main character, she is not Conan with breasts... she is a pivotal supporting character... though some resolution between her father an her would have been nice to see some of that tied up.
"...no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free.  No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything - you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is Kill him." - Robert A. Heinlein


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Re: Chapter 46: Discussion
« Reply #169 on: September 02, 2016, 04:31:42 pm »
that's awfully anticlimactic. I felt like they would have been there longer and I do have one question

What about that hooded figure on page 13. Who was she. That wasn't Warden, right? It can't be, right? I mean we have some time before the chapter ends so maybe it's too soon to be asking questions but this feels too abrupt to feel… safe  :-\

bulmabriefs144

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Re: Chapter 46: Discussion
« Reply #170 on: September 02, 2016, 08:03:36 pm »
...seriously? That was it?
I hate to say it, but I absolutely disliked Bern in this arc. Yet again she is rescued by someone else, and then it's over. I hope we will get to see more of Warden, but seems unlikely. Meh.

There's something you're not following here.

Bern's a lone wolf. She normally fights alone, because her code doesn't allow her not to defend anyone else.

http://flipside.keenspot.com/comic.php?i=976
http://flipside.keenspot.com/comic.php?i=977

So the fact that she is actually allowing a team effort, for her to let other people help her out... it's a major step.

Remember what what I said in a previous post about cars being fixed? Sometimes you dig yourself into trouble because your mentality makes you do it all yourself, rather than fighting smart and being an asset. If Polly wasn't pure offense, and Bern wasn't pure defense, Polly wouldn't be in this situation. For instance, Polly doing a simple Ball Bust (pfft) on the knives would have effectively blocked alot more than jumping in their path (Polly can learn about being mellow and collected from Bern). Likewise, if Bern had known what she doesn't now about offense, she could have done this maneuver and downed the guy before those knives had a chance to leave his hand.

http://flipside.keenspot.com/comic.php?i=116

Remember? Her being faster than a sped up Voulger?   

Sometimes being a solitary fighter actually is precisely the problem. As much a problem as relying on others, because when you fail, and human beings DO fail, you have to ask for more help than if you just decided to work together in the first place! Bern needs to be committed, but as much to being a team player as to being a stronger teammate.

Now about the rest...

This is kinda interesting the way the author handled a resurrection. It's sorta reminding of a stage acting rule "never show a gunshot onstage".  The reason being it supposedly looks odd. I kinda think it would have looked cool to show, but then it begs the question, how would you depict it? Or maybe it was "never fire a gun in the first act" the idea being that you don't bother with unnecessary elements. In either case, when looking at what we could have done with a resurrection:
  • You could do light or angel fluffiness, phoenix down style, but as the author has said, not really his MO. Plus, in a universe where the magic isn't real, we don't want unfortunate implications about other people's religions being smoke and mirrors. Okay for Final Fantasy, nix for this.
  • We could have done a religiously neutral resurrection, sort of like code being rewritten (since these are machines working behind the scenes) turning the target from "dead" state to "alive" with all the dramatics of her waking up. Alternatively, we have a strictly medical resurrection, but see #1 plus none of us knowing whether the depiction would be medically sound besides what we know of resuscitation.
  • Or, like a play, you can simply do it offscreen. From a metaphorical standpoint, this works. It is a like a "behind the scenes" stage effect, which is exactly what we are to think about.
 

I do find it interesting that they just waived the next three months though. Seriously, we are they going to do with the next 15 pages? Or is this gonna be a strangely short episode?

Also, digging that cute horse.
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

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Re: Chapter 46: Discussion
« Reply #171 on: September 02, 2016, 08:31:16 pm »
Pretty abrupt ending as well to me, but okay. My next guess is the next few pages will deal with Maytag.
Just thought about something else: Will Polly become a romantic threat to Maytag?
« Last Edit: September 02, 2016, 08:36:49 pm by SAGG »

bulmabriefs144

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Re: Chapter 46: Discussion
« Reply #172 on: September 02, 2016, 09:00:16 pm »
Hmmm, that would lead to a rather abrupt shift in plot though. Especially when we consider May's story. There is something extra not being told here, so dramatically, we heighten suspense. To have Maytag have ALSO finished her quest offscreen would be terrifically anticlimactic, especially when we're dying to see this Dark Cell from something other than flashbacks. Having her talk about what's really going on then a "here goes" moment, ending the chapter (only to leave us in suspense), maybe. But not a... "then they all meet Maytag." At least, not without a hefty WTF Happened chapter. There could also be something they meet on the road however, like a certain crazed cannibal, or whoever that hooded person was.

Also, I hope Warden gets her own chapters. She's too badass not to.
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

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Re: Chapter 46: Discussion
« Reply #173 on: September 03, 2016, 10:14:45 am »
Hope we see Warden again in the future...well...i'm talking about years from now XD She is an interesting character.

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Re: Chapter 46: Discussion
« Reply #174 on: September 05, 2016, 01:11:57 am »
Nothing else happened besides what it said. The abruptness isn't to conceal some mystery event to be brought up later, the Arena part of the story is just over, Bern finally accepted the lesson this entire arc has been trying to drill into her head. So there was no reason to continue dragging it on.

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Re: Chapter 46: Discussion
« Reply #175 on: September 05, 2016, 02:01:38 am »
I'm guessing they spent the full 4 years paying off their marks?

bulmabriefs144

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Re: Chapter 46: Discussion
« Reply #176 on: September 05, 2016, 04:48:27 am »
Nothing else happened besides what it said. The abruptness isn't to conceal some mystery event to be brought up later, the Arena part of the story is just over, Bern finally accepted the lesson this entire arc has been trying to drill into her head. So there was no reason to continue dragging it on.

Yeah, the Arena bit was uneventful. That said, in another comic this would actually be two pages.

One page would have the resurrection as an event, the second would have the summing up of months to years in the Arena.

Typically, we treat resurrection as a an event. Depending on the artist's flair and belief-set we have different stuff showing up. Naruto death and resurrections for instance are different.

But Brion treats it as "not needing description" and extra detail. Brion even goes in to explain "we've not yet seen a resurrection but here's how it works..." Pffft, we've still never "seen" a resurrection even though one was just done.   

 
« Last Edit: September 05, 2016, 06:11:16 am by bulmabriefs144 »
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

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Re: Chapter 46: Discussion
« Reply #177 on: September 05, 2016, 10:34:25 am »
Yeah, the Warden is kinda hot... love to see more of her bad-ass self.
"...no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free.  No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything - you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is Kill him." - Robert A. Heinlein


ducky_worshiper

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Re: Chapter 46: Discussion
« Reply #178 on: September 07, 2016, 04:06:03 pm »
I assume it's being handwaved with the idea of healers and whatnot affecting it, but seeing someone who had a pretty damn serious addictions issue just deciding "oh hey nevermind all that" because his daughter showed up randomly one day is... really difficult for me to suspend my disbelief for and honestly kind of a disappointing portrayal.

bulmabriefs144

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Re: Chapter 46: Discussion
« Reply #179 on: September 07, 2016, 06:24:39 pm »
It's a promise. He's just setting her mind at ease.

Is he going to stay on the wagon forever? Maybe not. But seeing his drinking drag his daughter into prison was enough to make him quit for awhile. I'm gonna give him the benefit of the doubt.

Bern should hook up with that hot blonde girl.
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison