Author Topic: Chapter 45: discussion  (Read 34545 times)

bulmabriefs144

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Re: Chapter 45: discussion
« Reply #90 on: February 28, 2016, 05:52:07 am »
The thing is, I have a different mentality about debate. Most people got on debate teams in college, and come across with the impression that debate is a fun activity and that the point is to win.

The reason I even enter debates is that I have stuff I want to figure out, so I test it out against other stuff until it either gets proven, revised, or disproven. The point is to learn, not to win. So I'd really say I try to discuss more than debate.

That said, I either win (to the extent that I see nobody after me giving a realistic argument) in which case I leave the thread in boredom only to find weeks later they are STILL talking about that, or I usually lose horribly in which case I can't seem to just disengage. The times when we're both right, and I come up with something new are rare, so I never am actually happy debating.

Debate is like war. Sometimes you win, sometimes the other guy. But as far as I'm concerned, nobody actually wins or understands each other as long as the two of you keep fighting.
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

sunphoenix

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Re: Chapter 45: discussion
« Reply #91 on: February 28, 2016, 09:58:36 am »
So, back to the story... Is Crest finally going to get laid?!

Maybe...? But I just don't think he 'feels' that way about.... the arguably smokin' hot Moby. Maybe I'm Too much of a romantic... but I get the feeling from Crest he's not sure How he feels about any woman right now! And... I feel a man who has sex with a woman... just "because"... she's  there is not much of a man to treat something so intimate and personal so flippantly.  Crest may 'seem' whisy-washy some times... but I think he's  better than that!  He does not seem lonely enough to need that kind of physical intimacy right now. His convictions seem rock solid... I 'm not certain he's even thinking about that right now.

As for Moby... I might be wrong on this in typical... male obliviousness but she 'seems' like Crest interests her at least. But the get him 'drunk and laid' ploy seems a little too low - brow and crude for her! But maybe I'm reading more into her than is actually  there?
« Last Edit: February 28, 2016, 10:02:29 am by sunphoenix »
"...no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free.  No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything - you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is Kill him." - Robert A. Heinlein


bulmabriefs144

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Re: Chapter 45: discussion
« Reply #92 on: February 28, 2016, 02:25:33 pm »
Show of hands.

How many people think Moby is into Crest? How many think she's part of an even plot to turn Crest against Suspiria? How many think something else is going on besides option A or B?

I vote no on the getting laid end. Crest kinda reads the same as Tom from 500 days of summer. Too unrealistic "nice guy" without having grasped yet what it takes to actually be a decent guy.
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

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Re: Chapter 45: discussion
« Reply #93 on: February 28, 2016, 08:54:40 pm »
bulmabriefs144, I don't think "winning" a "debate" necessarily accomplishes anything (it could happen to or it could not, usually not). I simply overinvested in part because you were easily convinced earlier, which put me in a sort of mental binary mode (meaning a personal quirk rather than a "justification") where I thought arguments (to be clear, this doesn't mean "fighting" to me) using facts and reasoning made sense to present. When you skipped over lots of things I said I tried to impress the points. I don't like it when I respond to essentially 100% of what one person says, paragraph by paragraph, but the other person purposefully refuses to acknowledge lots of key things I say (this is clearly undebatable and constitutes truth rather than any "hostility" or attempt to judge you as being bad, so please don't take it as more than an explanation), presumably because they're personally inconvenient to acknowledge in some way (from my perspective, by default, in the general case of this type of thing happening). I realize I was slow to adapt to the lack of progress.

Anyway, you say you want to "learn", not "debate", but it seems to me that how one judges the things I said to fit one (let's say "explain" instead of "learn" since it's coming from me rather than to you for the purpose of this sentence) or the other ("debate") is a personal choice that can be based on for example how "strenuous" "discussion" can be before it turns into a "debate". I did link to various information but you mostly didn't acknowledge it (among other things), while I tried to respond to everything you said every time (resulting in lots of text from me, increasing your problem or however you would categorize it). I realize this "burdened" you, but it's rather one-sided to categorize things as though you were just looking to learn and I was just looking to debate. If I was looking to learn I wouldn't simply ignore key things "against" my initial view, but I don't really care what in particular counts as what to you as long as you accept that I can't accept that your categorization of me is fair. I've tried to explain this but it feels like you view anything I say as hostile to the point where any explanation of my thoughts, given that they don't naturally favor you, seems like continued "fighting", "debate", and so on.

I have tried to disengage by acknowledging the uselessness of my efforts, the likely negative "public" perception they received, and so on, but you seem so far unable to accept that I believe I had reasons for what I did other than malice (as I would define the following) in the form of a thirst for "debate" in the same sense that I accept that you apparently had your own, dissimilar reasons for what you did. I don't expect to understand your reasons perfectly nor for you to understand mine, but please just let me have my reasons. I realize that you feel like it was a debate rather than a learning experience, whatever that means to you, but it feels differently to me. I'm sorry if my explanations disfavor you and make you feel as though you must defend yourself further from "debate", but I don't mean to do anything but as neutrally as possible explain my perspective (the steps that led to this waste of time, very likely more on my part (and therefore presumably "punishing" me more than you) than yours considering how much I typed in total), for I can't simply leave it at your apparent categorization of me as merely some errant debater that popped in.

For what it's worth, I know that you are also trying to disengage. I simply feel like you're reading unnecessary hostility into what I'm saying, when it's simply impossible to explain myself without mentioning the things you did which I reacted to, admittedly not in a very useful way. I understand that you felt and feel hostility, malice, "debate", "fighting", or whatever negatives you may or may not ascribe to me, but I assure you that I merely became annoyed as you purposefully didn't react to various things I said WHILE I stayed in a mental binary mode that was assuming that you could process what I was saying usefully, which was incorrect of me. This combination was of course irrational on my part, but such things happen to humans.

Okay, so you say you can't disengage well (let's say this is your "personal quirk" as minorly related to mine above). Well, it's over now (hopefully). As for "fighting", if this is all you think of it then that's unfortunate, but I realize you weren't looking for what I gave you and therefore don't need me to continue with the arguments on the main topics (which I have not been doing). Hopefully this explanation is sufficiently acceptable to you. I avoided this level of elaboration earlier because I hoped it was unnecessary and because I realized that elaborating upon the things you did which annoyed me (which is necessary to fully explain myself, and not an attempt to get you to apologize to me or to think poorly of yourself in any way) could easily not be received well, but hopefully you are able to tolerate it, and my apologies if not.

sunphoenix

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Re: Chapter 45: discussion
« Reply #94 on: February 29, 2016, 05:08:03 am »
Hmmm.. now that I ponder it.. the comment "Who doesn't like a good penis...", was a provocative way to segway to Moby and Crest.  Hidden message Brion? :)
"...no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free.  No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything - you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is Kill him." - Robert A. Heinlein


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Re: Chapter 45: discussion
« Reply #95 on: March 02, 2016, 12:54:09 pm »
Show of hands.

How many people think Moby is into Crest? How many think she's part of an even plot to turn Crest against Suspiria? How many think something else is going on besides option A or B?

I vote no on the getting laid end. Crest kinda reads the same as Tom from 500 days of summer. Too unrealistic "nice guy" without having grasped yet what it takes to actually be a decent guy.

Looks like you called it on "option A". I sort of saw it coming though. Who knows, maybe Crest has enough alcohol in him to loosen him up enough for a "Moby Dick" collaboration project.

bulmabriefs144

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Re: Chapter 45: discussion
« Reply #96 on: March 02, 2016, 09:30:48 pm »
 ???

Ohhhh. Ew. I initially (having read part of Moby Dick, and all of the abridged version) thought you were referring to the incredibly dry prospect of hunting elusive prey. Or Platonic cave imagery. Or homerotic imagery.

Then an hour later I got the pun.
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

sunphoenix

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Re: Chapter 45: discussion
« Reply #97 on: March 03, 2016, 05:20:41 am »
I... HOPE Moby is not just trying to 'work-Handle' Crest for Q'talda and Company.  I mean I really REALLY hope she is actually being sincere cause 'THIS' kind of ploy at manipulation... is NOT the kind of Bull-shit Crest needs right now...

I'm not sure Why I'm suddenly super-suspicious... call it male gut instinct about what she said and how she said it.

"When I first met you You made like zero impression on me. I thought you were some boring lame guy."

- Ok, what has Crest done to change that opinion?  Not a criticism of Crest but a criticism of her reasoning.  Crest has NOT done the typical male 'stereo-type' thing of rushing around putting himself into mindless danger or fights making demands.  Yes, he WAS practicing his swordsman skills on the local criminal element of his hometown... but that was measured and with precise purpose... and no one was actually hurt.  He went home leaving the Wizard College.. prompting Q'talda and company to pursue him.  His first reaction was surprise to see any of them there... including Moby. 

Now Moby WAS witness to his loyalty and support of Suspiria and how bravely he sought her out and confronted her when everyone else was scared out of their minds about her.
But she was not there to witness his decisiveness to spare her life with the sword Panacea. 
Crest stood up to the Q'talda and company... and also out of 'stereotype' male behavior was not consumed with rage and desire for revenge upon Suspiria {likely cause he finds Q'talda's "We were all forced to say those things"... lame}, and saw no point to seeking her out~ likely cause she is powerful enough to kill them all.

So what exactly has Crest done to make himself so 'Newly' interesting to Moby?  She has not elaborated...  If she would have said, 'Crest, your deeper than a typical guy thinking only with your muscles or your sword you are contemplative and self-reflective in a way that gives pause.  You are judicious in your actions and loyal to your friends!'  THAT would make since.. but perhaps I'm not giving her time to state her case?

Then the "I don't know what it is... but there's something about you, Your Attractive."

- Now don't get me wrong.. Crest is not unattractive.. but he is not portrayed in the comic as an Adonis.. he is Attractive as certain female characters have been seen to recognize.. but only recently after he's been more experienced with events in his life...

http://flipside.keenspot.com/comic.php?i=2287

But that is such a ...lame pick-up line on Moby's part, it causes me to wonder at its sincerity?
That and the fact she rapidly trying to get herself plastered makes me suspicious if she has not been.. pushed into trying to seduce Crest?

I guess I'm only actually concerned because.. I'm really starting to like the man Crest is developing into and I don't want to see him messed over by Q'talda into ruining his chances with the lovely Suspiria. 

I just wish Crest would 'story-wise' be given the time to ponder the developments enough to come to his OWN decision of the need to seek out  Suspiria to get to the truth because she's a friend and she deserves a chance to answer these accusations!

« Last Edit: March 03, 2016, 05:24:30 am by sunphoenix »
"...no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free.  No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything - you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is Kill him." - Robert A. Heinlein


bulmabriefs144

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Re: Chapter 45: discussion
« Reply #98 on: March 03, 2016, 06:26:20 am »
I thought that too.

Perhaps it was okay to blindly hunt Suspiria down with attempt to kill. And now that he's off the reservation, perhaps Moby is there to make sure he doesn't do alot of thinking by himself and decide she's telling the truth. To keep him inactive if he's inactive, and blindly chasing if he's active, but never sitting down and thinking "hold up, why are we siding with Qtalda? That bitch tried to erase her."

For that matter, this story of Moby's sounds kinda like this webcomic.

http://selkiecomic.com/comic/selkie742/

"She's... uhhh just randomly crazy."

Suuuuuure.

In any case, when people were tormenting her after Kin's death, Moby was one of them. That doesn't put her exactly on the best friends list, and he can take this whole story with a grain of salt.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2016, 06:29:47 am by bulmabriefs144 »
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

sunphoenix

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Re: Chapter 45: discussion
« Reply #99 on: March 05, 2016, 05:04:13 pm »
Uhmm... to Quote George Takei...

"OH MY!"

But seriously... in this situation.. there is no ambiguity about what the young woman is offering here...

So, if I were in Crest's situation... the only mature.. and hopefully respectful and not insulting response would be...

"...Ok, Moby.. I can see you're serious, are you sure this is what you want? I am more than a little surprised.. I'm not use to women companions being so.. forward with me?  I'm only asking because.. I'm not sure what I'm feeling right now.. your beautiful no doubt.. but I've not had the best of..'fortune' with romance in my life.  Your a friend.. maybe even a close friend.. I don't want to hurt that... so are we becoming a WE or is this a one-time thing?"

After all he would not want to make more of this than is actually there..but he also does not want to hurt her feelings either.  So many relationships in life are ruined by both  individuals not having the same ideas of what they want out of a relationship. 

A 'Purely' physical relationship is.. possibly satisfying for a short time.. and short could be several years... but likely that won't last and could end very VERY badly if one partner was hoping for more or feeling more deeply than the other.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2016, 08:58:56 pm by sunphoenix »
"...no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free.  No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything - you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is Kill him." - Robert A. Heinlein


bulmabriefs144

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Re: Chapter 45: discussion
« Reply #100 on: March 07, 2016, 04:59:23 pm »
Now I'm convinced she's playing him. There's no way that she could be interested in someone like him, right?
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

sunphoenix

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Re: Chapter 45: discussion
« Reply #101 on: March 07, 2016, 08:37:27 pm »
Now I'm convinced she's playing him. There's no way that she could be interested in someone like him, right?

Two things...

One, I'm not sure she's playing him.. as in trying to seduce him for some ulterior goal... make no mistake.. Moby want's to 'play with him'... but I'm not sure its more than that.

Second, from what I've seen of Crest and how he treats and interacts with women in general... he's the marrying type.. he's not "a lady's man".. not a skirt chaser.  Crest seems to me the kind of guy who would never 'cheat' on his girlfriend or even flirt with other women that he was not in some relationship in.  He's a "Nice Guy"... if a little shy and quiet perhaps.

Which, is sadly why this whole~ In-Your-Face seduction by Moby is failing miserably!  She would have had more success just cuddling up close to him ...a softer less blatant approach.

Much as I'd like to see Crest with someone.. I'm not thinking Moby is the woman for him... as she has either totally misread him {which I find hard to believe..cause she is clearly very observant and always watching, listening and not speaking much herself}, or she is just doing what she thinks is the way to a man's heart... she may know no other more endearing'?' way to offer herself to a man she's interested in.  Which in itself is even sadder...

The Darker view is that this blatant slutty approach is because she is doing this on someone else's orders~ so she is not actually being sincere.. and she thinks THIS is all it will take to get Crest to come around their plans...with the added bene' that Crest IS attractive and she gets laid in the process or at least has some fun 'breaking-In' the virgin; which could only mean Q'talda is the real instigator of all this!  I really, Really, REALLY hope this is not the case as it will severely hurt my respect and like of Moby~ cause this is dishonest and in bad taste...friends do not 'work/handle-MANIPULATE' friends like this, its wrong and taking advantage of their friendship!
"...no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free.  No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything - you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is Kill him." - Robert A. Heinlein


bulmabriefs144

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Re: Chapter 45: discussion
« Reply #102 on: March 07, 2016, 11:41:01 pm »
#2 was what I meant. And it was semi-dark humor. I have a similar mentality, I'm attracted to women as a whole, but I tend not to flirt a lot. On the other hand, I have had alot of relationships just end, sometimes my fault but alot were because of moves (we, uhhh, moved alot as a kid). I took it personally.
This is semi-dark humor because it represents my own internal outlook of rejection mentality. As in, someone could strip in front of me, and I would immediately suspect "surely she isn't interested in someone like me" then follow it up with "this must be a scam" then simply walk away, leading her to think not interested. When actually I am interested, just one, not in casual just met thing, and two I immediately overthink everything.

I had one or two intimate times in my life, and they were usually followed by an abrupt end of the relationship. As in, I've had my second kiss about 16 or so years after the first, then I got into an argument with said girl a week later, and had about 286 text messages at 3am. Then another girl, we had a power outage, and decided to snuggle together for warmth. We were both mostly clothed. Then the power came back, and we kinda continued to snuggle, but then my arm fell asleep and her butt was alittle close to... anyway, she decided I wasn't comfortable, and I was alittle like wtf, but didn't force the issue, so we made breakfast and went our separate ways. That one's still friends, but it just seems better that way. Anyway, the point is, because of stuff like this, I overthink stuff.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2016, 11:57:33 pm by bulmabriefs144 »
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

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Re: Chapter 45: discussion
« Reply #103 on: March 09, 2016, 10:34:19 am »
Well she's dead.
Bye Moby.

sunphoenix

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Re: Chapter 45: discussion
« Reply #104 on: March 09, 2016, 04:08:28 pm »
Well.. I'm, more interested in Crest's resons for rejecting her advances.. but he's not 'using his words'... exclamations of 'stop!', 'No', 'You can't just take your cloths off...', don't really tell us anything behind what he's feeling or why! 

STOP Being just reactionary Crest!!! Talk... damn it, Explain yourself!  Don't just reject her and then give no reason why!  Moby is Clearly interested in going all the way with you... you don't have any current girlfriend that your admitting too.. and your both consenting adults.. so ... why not?  Would Crest reject such an advance from Maytag...? THAT'S the issue I have with this sudden turn-off on his part.  You're going to hurt Moby's feelings Crest... and unnecessarily cause she may jump to all sorts of conclusions that have no actual basis in truth! COMMUNICATE.. its the Adult thing to do!!  If your STILL holding a torch for Maytag.. you need to be clear about that {useless as such attraction might be cause Maytag is certainly already committed to Bern}!!!

...Moby's advances may actually be genuine.

Though her words DO give some insight into her thinking slightly... 'Your a guy... you won't say no!'
That denotes ...as her previous words 'Hey Friend, Lets have some fun!'  That indeed Crest is NOT the first male she has used this tactic on... so.. is her advance just her usual way of getting male companionship?  This might just all be her idea indeed of plain... fill-in-depressing or lonely moments of life favorite brand of 'Entertainment'. 

Nothing particularly sinister with that...
« Last Edit: March 09, 2016, 04:10:29 pm by sunphoenix »
"...no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free.  No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything - you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is Kill him." - Robert A. Heinlein


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Re: Chapter 45: discussion
« Reply #105 on: March 09, 2016, 07:33:15 pm »
Didn't Crest actually reject Maytag for being "scum" earlier? And wouldn't he be holding a torch more for Suspiria than the "newly" unavailable Maytag in any case?

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Re: Chapter 45: discussion
« Reply #106 on: March 09, 2016, 07:39:59 pm »
"You're a man, you won't say no."

This is a sexist double-standard if I ever heard one.

Crest doesn't need reasons. Anymore than a woman needs reasons. No means no. Too many men are like "Well she said no, but I'm gonna try to convince her..." No. Just no. Crest is a consenting adult, but you need him to explain himself?

It's pretty simple why. Nothing to do with Maytag, he's long passed on to Suspiria. Crest is depressed and needs a REAL friend. Not a "friend" that wants to use him for sex. 

And yes, Crest is probably a hypocrite.
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

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Re: Chapter 45: discussion
« Reply #107 on: March 11, 2016, 08:36:32 am »
Maybe he doesn't want to have his head to be removed while being turned inside-out by a certain jealous, horned demon goddess thing with anger issues who may or may not be watching at any given time.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2016, 08:39:25 am by 9_6 »

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Re: Chapter 45: discussion
« Reply #108 on: March 11, 2016, 02:39:52 pm »
Crest has never really been characterized as the kind of guy to have a random hookup. Even the women he's expressed interest in are women he's had deeper interest in - Maytag, Suspiria, the girl from the gang in Chapter 1, etc. So I don't really think it's out of the ordinary for him to not want to have sex with a woman who, unless there has been a significant amount of development outside of what has been shown, is someone he doesn't know very well.

I also agree with BulmaBriefs in that, while I can understand how an explanation could be a nice thing to give, he doesn't need one. He doesn't even need a reason beyond "I don't want to." It's not necessary that he be hung up on another woman.

bulmabriefs144

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Re: Chapter 45: discussion
« Reply #109 on: March 11, 2016, 07:23:21 pm »
Link time!

I've read several articles on rape culture.

https://radfarmerfemme.wordpress.com/2014/11/30/how-romantic-comedies-perpetuate-rape-culture/

http://www.rawstory.com/2015/10/how-rape-culture-victimizes-men/

I guess I've never thought about it before, but men are kind of sucked in to that culture too. If they don't want to be alone, they have to be open/willing/kind of pushy. In other words, they get typecast as "you won't say no because you're a guy." But feminism also is about improving the lot of men, not just making abortions easy. Which by the way...

http://www.feministsforlife.org/can-you-really-be-a-feminist-and-pro-life/

Feminism is, and should be about equality. As long as men are seen as the aggressors, the ones that won't say no, we have a problem on our hands.

http://www.antiserious.com/2014/10/08/because-everybody-needs-feminism/

The gang girl has a name. I think it was Dice. And she's a far better match for Crest.

http://flipside.keenspot.com/comic.php?i=69
« Last Edit: March 11, 2016, 07:27:01 pm by bulmabriefs144 »
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

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Re: Chapter 45: discussion
« Reply #110 on: March 12, 2016, 05:03:14 am »
Oh no...

Edit:
He's not in the mood, it's all a bit too much, not actually interested in her. Fine.
Don't give me this whole "every act of spontaneity is rape" and "consent is hot" bullshit tho.
Especially after he just questioned her seriousness, intentional or not.

We can start talking "rape" if actual rape is happening.
And don't you dare strawmaning me with "oh so you're saying men can't be raped?" now.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2016, 06:11:30 am by 9_6 »

bulmabriefs144

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Re: Chapter 45: discussion
« Reply #111 on: March 12, 2016, 01:04:54 pm »
The idea of rape is not the sexual act. That's a mistake people make.

https://www.mnsu.edu/varp/assault/myths.html

Rape is an attitude that you can make someone fall in love with you.

That sounds harmless, right? Say it again.  Rape is an attitude that you can make someone fall in love with you. It's about power, not sex.

She said no to you? Well, she doesn't know what she wants does she? It's okay to assault men, because they don't really have feelings. Et cetera. All of these are just excuses to ignore what the other person wants and do what you want. 

Rape is essentially force, a sort of coercion. The word rape is not about the sex act, it's a shorthand for "I don't want this." This even includes crude pickup lines, pawing at someone, asking for favors, insisting someone "owes" them. All of this is a subset of the same mentality, that you are able to trick or push someone into liking you.

That's not even the real issue here, though. Rape is a poor substitute for love. As in, Moby, instead of having a meaningful long term relationship, wants a cheap fling after which both sides will feel cheap and want nothing to do with each other.

"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

Brion Foulke

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Re: Chapter 45: discussion
« Reply #112 on: March 12, 2016, 03:46:48 pm »
That's a really strange definition.  It's obviously not true that the goal of all rapists is to force someone to fall in love with them... unless you are using the word "love" in a seriously unconventional way.  But even if that's the case, rape is too much of a bombshell of a word to be used carelessly like that.  It's insensitive.

Let's stick with the standard definition for discussion if you don't mind, so as to not needlessly offend anyone.

9_6

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Re: Chapter 45: discussion
« Reply #113 on: March 12, 2016, 04:36:03 pm »
Yeah let's stick to the no consent + sexual act definition of "rape" and so far, moby has done nothing to disregard crests consent.

Everything after "yeah I can" feels a tad bit ham-fisted and I hope you'll resolve this gracefully.

Brion Foulke

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Re: Chapter 45: discussion
« Reply #114 on: March 12, 2016, 06:18:47 pm »
But Crest and Moby are the hamfisted type!

But if what you mean is you're worried about it going in a preachy direction, don't worry too much. 

bulmabriefs144

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Re: Chapter 45: discussion
« Reply #115 on: March 13, 2016, 06:31:16 am »
Yeah let's stick to the no consent + sexual act definition of "rape" and so far, moby has done nothing to disregard crests consent.

Everything after "yeah I can" feels a tad bit ham-fisted and I hope you'll resolve this gracefully.

Okay, Brion, maybe too much.

I'll stick with no consent + sexual act, though... 

If you are getting naked in front of a person and saying "let's have sex" it is only one step or so from actually having sex. It may not be rape, but it is still "attempted rape." In terms of the emotional scars it leaves, it's pretty messed up. 

http://rape.uslegal.com/attempt-to-rape/

Quote
Any overt act beyond mere preparation and in furtherance of intent is sufficient and it does not require a last proximate act prior to the consummation of sexual intercourse.

Overt act? Big doublecheck there. Furtherance of intent? Check. Sexual intercourse? Well no, but this much would be enough for Moby to get locked up as a real creeper in US courts. The only thing she didn't do is get frisky with his parts, or rip his clothes off.

The other stuff (unwanted pawing, saying creepy stuff, whatever else I mentioned) is still sexual assault, as it still counts as extremely creepy for someone not interested. Between saying "You're a man, you won't say no", stripping naked, and trying to get him to do something, she may not have raped him, but she certainly disturbed him, and definitely is already assaulting him (Crest is correct).

She's using force. Time to send her to the Colosseum! Oh wait, wrong country.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2016, 06:36:34 am by bulmabriefs144 »
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

9_6

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Re: Chapter 45: discussion
« Reply #116 on: March 13, 2016, 08:23:43 am »
She just confessed to him and it all kind of lead to this.
At best there's a misunderstanding of her interpreting his "yeah right" as a challenge while he actually wasn't interested and all it takes to clear that up is what just happened.

Daisuki-chan

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Re: Chapter 45: discussion
« Reply #117 on: March 13, 2016, 08:47:38 pm »
Someone naked saying to another person "let's have sex" but doing absolutely nothing to rape it into happening (meaning that the other person simply says no and/or leaves) shouldn't be even remotely as emotionally scarring as actually being raped (if it is then that person needs a padded room...I mean a "safe space" to live in, far from society until they can be "fixed" (in any case the punishment should match the CRIME, not the victim's unverifiable AND random FEELINGS)). It's also already illegal to do in public and therefore surely needn't count as anything like rape when it's nowhere near as bad. Even a failed rape attempt would on average be much less scarring than a successful one, although how violent this was would be a large factor. In the real world people know what is and isn't rape and don't need to constantly push the boundaries (especially to the point where the original term becomes meaningless, as feminists often do with rape and harassment) because they're not angling to be a victim and/or to gain political power. I'm sorry, but your feminist links don't prove anything because feminists have a strong track record of both lying and ignoring the truth when it suits them. It's quite clear that Brion knows much better than you what rape ACTUALLY is, assuming rape is meant to ACTUALLY count as ALWAYS "rape-level" bad, that is, rather than "maybe really bad, maybe bad, maybe annoying, maybe trivial, maybe NOTHING".

As a parting "shot" (one of many possible since you routinely try to "educate" the forums with feminist "information"), no, rape isn't about power. At least not usually, out of the times when men do it (feminists aren't very interested in why women rape (assuming they even admit it's possible) so it isn't discussed much in comparison). The female rape victims of males tend to be youthful and/or easy targets, which makes sense if your goal as a rapist is the easiest, highest quality sex (obviously if you can get "enough" other sex you wouldn't tend to rape because the downside when you're caught is extremely severe; anyone who ignores this is uncontrollable anyway and not worth cracking down on or "matronizing" normal men over, as they are already not raping). Quality includes how attractive the victim is, so a disproportional amount of female rape victims are young and attractive, because that's what men are attracted to in women anyway. The fact that you need power in order to rape doesn't mean that male rape of women is usually committed for the purpose of gaining or demonstrating power. A rapist believes they have the power already, or they wouldn't likely try. Instead what they want is SEX. Perhaps you could try pushing for the legalization of prostitution, porn, and sex/masturbatory aids as much as possible for everyone if you want fewer women to be raped. If you make the alternatives to rape as attractive as possible to the potential rapists ALONGSIDE punishing rape heavily you'll tend to minimize the amount of rape (of course it would help if men weren't commonly raped in prison and in any case had the ability to get their lives back on track after leaving prison, minimizing recidivism, neither of which is the case in the U.S. and many other places). I realize that feminists have their dogma on this, but feminism lies and ignores evidence whenever convenient, and pushing the idea of a "rape culture" is convenient to feminism. The only real rape culture the U.S. has is in prison, and feminists refuse to fix this, instead preferring to pass more and loonier feminist laws instead, for the sake of the "fem" in "fem"inism (although ruining the law, justice, and society ultimately hurts women in the long term, too, not that feminists admit this).

Brion Foulke

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Re: Chapter 45: discussion
« Reply #118 on: March 14, 2016, 01:24:27 pm »
Well to be fair, it's about power AND sex.  It's about "power" in the same sense that any type of coercion / force is, in that you're using power to exert your will over another.  And obviously it's about sex as the goal is forcing sex that would normally be unobtainable.  So I think you could fairly say it's about both.

Oh, and also... for some rapists, it may be that the forcing sex has a certain thrill which is more appealing to them than consentual sex.  So for that type of mindset, you could fairly say that it's as much about power as sex, if not more so.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2016, 01:27:59 pm by Brion Foulke »

9_6

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Re: Chapter 45: discussion
« Reply #119 on: March 14, 2016, 05:37:34 pm »
I have no idea if this is a "it's the repress-o-matic dark ages so of course this is going on" or a "even in a magical progressive fantasy utopia do those double standards exist" situation.