Author Topic: Chapter 45: discussion  (Read 19532 times)

Stargoat

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Chapter 45: discussion
« on: December 30, 2015, 02:35:05 pm »
Ooh. Seems to be a Crest chapter. Right on.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2015, 08:50:16 pm by Brion Foulke »

bulmabriefs144

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Re: Chapter 45: discussion
« Reply #1 on: December 31, 2015, 09:54:06 am »
Awwww. I wanted to see May get turned into a monster.  :'(
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
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Re: Chapter 45: discussion
« Reply #2 on: January 04, 2016, 10:31:41 pm »
Maytag already is a monster.

Why did Chrest believe those folks are Susperina's parents? The crazy witch person already admitted to killing them. http://flipside.keenspot.com/comic.php?i=1963

Daisuki-chan

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Re: Chapter 45: discussion
« Reply #3 on: January 05, 2016, 04:35:24 pm »
I suppose if one assumes that Suspiria is unreliable due to having been altered into a "monster" and one accepts that she's a level four sorcerer (or at least very exceptionally powerful now) one could assume that it's possible or even likely that she physically manipulated everyone but Halcyon (if not also him), or created puppets of them after having disposed of them (in Qtalda's case only disposing of an "avatar" by mistake (assuming the current Qtalda is an independent being!)) in order to convince Crest to trust her in a concretely demonstrable way (that may also reinforce his commitment to her) by committing to using the sword on her (perhaps there was no need for this either, and thus no physical risk to Suspiria, if it was all a staged scenario). I don't find this especially likely at least in whole from a story standpoint, but if Crest reset his opinion on the basis of being unable to trust in Suspiria's nature given that it may have been altered by a large amount by the mysterious Thin Man, it could make sense.

sunphoenix

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Re: Chapter 45: discussion
« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2016, 12:19:31 pm »
I'm sorry.. I'm NOT buying this.

I think Suspiria truly believes her parents are dead and that Qtalda killed them.  Right or wrong she was motivated by that... I can't really swallow the whole, 'oh she mind controlled everyone to act this way'.. to quote Crest~ What would be the point of her doing all that?  For who was she possibly putting on a show for?  Not Crest cause she apparently left him behind for parts unknown. 

Something else is going on here...

And let's not get too lost on some VERY important details.. Suspiria did NOT kill the Council... 'THEY ALL unanimously decided SHE needed to be murdered'- then she revealed herself and Qtalda attacked her!  She defended herself and the spell backfired on them.  She Never hurt any of them directly or attacked any of them!  Yeah she may have frightened some girls who were especially mean to her as an apprentice.. but she did not harm them.

As far as I'm concerned I'm with Crest on this.. what IS the point in hunting her down?  Its not illegal to be a power spellcaster.. and in fact she is a student and licensed spellcaster of the conclave but most of all she has not killed anyone who did not try to kill her first!

She's done nothing wrong.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2016, 12:23:32 pm by sunphoenix »
"...no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free.  No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything - you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is Kill him." - Robert A. Heinlein


Daisuki-chan

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Re: Chapter 45: discussion
« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2016, 06:05:13 pm »
We don't actually know why she might've wanted Crest to stay on her side...it could even just be sentiment. Leaving him behind for an unknown period of time doesn't really invalidate Crest mattering to her (and clearly she wanted him to be on and/or demonstrate being on her side when she set it up such that he'd have to use (or appear to have to use) the sword on her, which implies that he does matter to her). If she could be altered to think that the Conclave killed her parents then it's possible that instead or additionally she manipulated the Conclave members to act as and say what she wished (perhaps excepting Halcyon for whatever reason). Her killing (you mean she didn't murder them; she did kill them unless that was all faked) the council "illegitimately" would be based on the idea that Qtalda found her parents, who are alive, which is one possibility.

I do agree that Crest probably can't do anything, since if Suspiria knew her parents were alive then Crest telling her wouldn't help (and could backfire), while otherwise she'd be unlikely to trust in Crest's reasons for believing Qtalda and friends (and this could count as a betrayal of sorts on Crest's part to Suspiria). Crest doesn't actually have significant proof (that I know of) that these are Suspiria's parents, and if she was altered to not remember them as they are now then he's unlikely to have anything convincing to say. Anyway, hunting down someone that killed most of the leadership of a powerful country is nothing surprising. Whether or not what she did was "wrong" doesn't make such a response unlikely in the least, especially when it's "monster" Suspiria's word against leader Qtalda's. The main issue is just that they apparently have no plan (although perhaps this is a lie), instead just gambling on Crest saying "something" to Suspiria (perhaps as a distraction if they in fact have a real plan).

sunphoenix

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Re: Chapter 45: discussion
« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2016, 02:18:27 am »
Ok.. THAT I can buy.

No, Suspiria did not Murder the Conclave... but her defensive spell did turn the lethal spell that was cast at her back on them that cause their own deaths.

Taken in the idea that she may be falsely accused of murder is THIN because Crest was there and saw the whole thing... unless they have decided NOT to believe him in which case there is a strong evidence to suspect they are indeed using Crest just to get close to her so THEY can enact some plan he knows nothing about.

Here is something else to consider... what makes you think all those present are who they say they are?  I'm not talking Suspiria's parents... I mean Miss.. Invisible Woman Qtalda.

Why could she not weave a disguise to appear as one of those present ...since she is apparently not attached to any real physical appearance, and is just using this as a way to get close to Suspiria to try to kill her again? 

Heck it could be even simpler than that! Qtalda could be present and she is controlling or even just out and out working with one of those present to try to get Crest to help betray Suspiria!
« Last Edit: January 07, 2016, 02:20:42 am by sunphoenix »
"...no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free.  No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything - you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is Kill him." - Robert A. Heinlein


bulmabriefs144

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Re: Chapter 45: discussion
« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2016, 05:46:21 pm »
I suppose if one assumes that Suspiria is unreliable due to having been altered into a "monster" and one accepts that she's a level four sorcerer (or at least very exceptionally powerful now) one could assume that it's possible or even likely that she physically manipulated everyone but Halcyon (if not also him), or created puppets of them after having disposed of them (in Qtalda's case only disposing of an "avatar" by mistake (assuming the current Qtalda is an independent being!)) in order to convince Crest to trust her in a concretely demonstrable way (that may also reinforce his commitment to her) by committing to using the sword on her (perhaps there was no need for this either, and thus no physical risk to Suspiria, if it was all a staged scenario). I don't find this especially likely at least in whole from a story standpoint, but if Crest reset his opinion on the basis of being unable to trust in Suspiria's nature given that it may have been altered by a large amount by the mysterious Thin Man, it could make sense.

I wonder. It seems like some of these experiments have side effects. Bloody Mary has insatiable hunger for flesh. Suspiria has incredible mental (or whatever) development and grows horns. Okay, let's think about this. Brain on overdrive. Could it be possible for her to have distorted memories? Well, it worked on Final Fantasy 8 with GF junctions.
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
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Re: Chapter 45: discussion
« Reply #8 on: January 07, 2016, 08:47:51 pm »
Technically you could say that there's no reason Suspiria's defensive spell had to reflect rather than merely block the spell, as "normally" it is much easier to block or deflect than to reflect (and Qtalda's spell was biological rather than energy-based). Yes, it makes it up to Qtalda whether all of the Conclave except for her die, but Suspiria theoretically chose to give that choice to Qtalda, expecting her to take it, or at least making it easy to retaliate without looking as bad to Crest. Naturally this did result in Halcyon's death, which wasn't "fair" if the situation was in accordance with how the Conclave members were acting. Incidentally, the situation ended up being pretty convenient to Qtalda if Qtalda wanted to take over sole leadership of the Conclave, so it's possible she expected the result or cooperated with Suspiria to whatever degree.

Yes, Crest saw things...I wouldn't trust Qtalda and friends now if I was him. And of course they've decided that Qtalda is more trustworthy than the situation Crest observed (and/or more trustworthy than Crest himself), without establishing why to Crest in any convincing manner that we know of. One could just say Suspiria looks like a monster now (although as you said she didn't do anything noteworthy outside of destroying the Conclave), but Qtalda is pretty weird herself, too. Maybe the group is patriotic or something.

Qtalda is obviously a big question mark from Crest's perspective. He had no relationship with her anyway (I think), so he really has no reason to believe her or care about her. I assume they just wanted to convince Crest that helping the group was morally right for him to do (since we haven't seen them force him to join him, although he still might be worried about their response if he refused them), but clearly he feels extremely uncommitted, so they did a poor job (which makes sense given how little evidence we've seen them give him).

Anyway, she could be using another disguise, yes. I don't know what the plan is, but the default plan in this situation would be killing Suspiria. Crest shouldn't be very likely to actively help with this without more proof than I've seen, so using him as a distraction (with words to and/or "betrayal" of Suspiria) is the only main idea right now. Unfortunately due to high magic very little is reliable, so almost anything could happen.

bulmabriefs114, her memories could be altered in a controlled or uncontrolled manner, which is why there's even a reason Crest can entertain the side of the story Qtalda and friends gave him.

EDIT: In response to page six, either Crest is a good actor or he's a bit slow, unless of course there was lots of off panel proof that we didn't see or at least proof that I don't remember.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2016, 04:03:16 am by Daisuki-chan »

bulmabriefs144

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Re: Chapter 45: discussion
« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2016, 11:16:45 am »
He's decided that because the facts seem to add up a certain way, to not test them.

We have a passionate but troubled person, who is upset about her schoolmates bullying her and believes rightly or wrongly that her parents are killed. Who put her life at risk to make sure Crest was on her side.

Next we have being with no body, and a freaking flesh eating summon, who for all Crest knows, could have hired actors to convince Crest. We know NOTHING about this person. Who actually admitted to killing the parents earlier, meaning at least one of his statements is a blatant lie. And yet Crest trusts them instead of someone he's spent time with.

This is actually the second time Crest has let HIS feelings of betrayal get in the way of trust. The first was when Maytag came out as an emotionless girl. Rather than being "we love you anyway" Crest acts like she did something horribly wrong.

Dude WTF?!?

Now, in terms of feeling betrayed. I can get that. I can even get the feeling of "what's the point?" futility. But I think when a person has shown trustworthiness, it seems like you should at least check them. A person known for killing people (to the point of a patented spell), on the other hand, is likely a murderer.

I pride myself at having some knowledge of people's character and of logic. Logic tells me Qtalda is lying about something. Knowledge of Suspiria tells me she's a revenge obsessed person, not a manipulator. Without a reason for revenge, her past makes no sense.

Quote
bulmabriefs114, her memories could be altered in a controlled or uncontrolled manner, which is why there's even a reason Crest can entertain the side of the story Qtalda and friends gave him.

Ohhh, I misread. Qtalda's story. Yes, I suppose that would make some sense. Still, it would not render her guilty of anything, just dangerous by reason of insanity.

In either case, if Crest likes Suspiria, there is no reason to go after her on Qtalda's behalf. If he doesn't like her anymore, there is also no reason to go after her. This is a Morton's Fork.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2016, 11:32:47 am by bulmabriefs144 »
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

Daisuki-chan

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Re: Chapter 45: discussion
« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2016, 07:45:20 pm »
I agree that Qtalda should be much less trustworthy to Crest than monsterized Suspiria, who did still at least appear to have reasons for revenge in all instances of what she did, plus appeared to leave her choice of living up to Crest via the healing sword.

I hope Crest is acting or at least considers that possibility that this group is full of shit (either directly and/or by being misled by Qtalda, patriotism, or whatever) even if Suspiria may also be a liar or mistaken. It's not really possible to tell because he really has no reason to confront Suspiria anyway, so whether he's ruled out the things either side has said has little relevance to what he's saying now. I hope he gets more of a plan out of this group, since it would be a bit sad if they didn't even have a false plan to feed him and just hoped he was a total dope that would just randomly talk to Suspiria while they did "nothing in particular". Of course they could simply threaten Crest instead of telling him a plan, but this might not be the best once he does talk to Suspiria, since he could just tell her he's a hostage to people that want to kill (or stop; he can say whatever) her.

bulmabriefs144

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Re: Chapter 45: discussion
« Reply #11 on: January 09, 2016, 02:02:03 pm »
The smart thing for Crest to be doing now is to be testing whether the people around are speaking the truth. However, I suspect Crest is, as I say reeling from "fool me twice" syndrome. He believes that he can't trust May, so he spent all of his energy trusting Suspiria. And now he believes he can't trust her either. He could be wrong on both counts actually, but so far he doesn't seem prone to testing things out.
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

sunphoenix

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Re: Chapter 45: discussion
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2016, 06:33:28 am »
Yeah, that's the one quirk about Crest that I realy don't like... he's Very Judgmental and does not try to show a bit of empathy with people who are supposed to be his friends... when he is told something that conflicts with his established mental image of who they are.  He won't give them the benefit of the doubt and try to communicate with them to understand why they are the way they are or why they have decided to act or behave in a way he does not understand, on the surface.

I mean honestly.. if you really consider someone your dear friend don't they deserve a little of your own faith in them?
« Last Edit: January 10, 2016, 06:35:03 am by sunphoenix »
"...no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free.  No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything - you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is Kill him." - Robert A. Heinlein


bulmabriefs144

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Re: Chapter 45: discussion
« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2016, 01:52:21 pm »
Well, it's easy for us to judge Crest, but that's effectively the same thing.

Crest is probably Borderline Personality Disorder (which accounts for some of his idealization and devaluation patterns). Emotionally unstable people need love too!  :-*
« Last Edit: January 11, 2016, 01:54:32 pm by bulmabriefs144 »
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
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sunphoenix

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Re: Chapter 45: discussion
« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2016, 11:02:45 pm »
Potentially.

Though it is totally possible Crest was just feeding them all a 'smoke-screen' to get them to stop watching him while HE goes off on his own to find Suspiria.. to ask her himself..what's going on.  He INDEED may not trust any of them entirely!

As for ...for the life of me I cannot remember this chick's name, so for now I'm calling her 'Star Cheeks'... I've always felt.. there was something... kinda out of the ordinary..more than just thrill seeking interest she has shown Crest.  she was the one that went with him to find Suspiria... when everyone else cowered or decided to discus the matter in a committee.

Storywise it would be 'cute' if 'Star Cheeks' secretly felt something more for Crest than casual acquaintance.  On a more sinister note she may not be who she seems to be.. she could be Qtalda in a magical disguise... her only interest in Crest being he is the best way to approach Suspiria from surprise with him as a distraction.. she she can be killed.
"...no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free.  No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything - you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is Kill him." - Robert A. Heinlein


bulmabriefs144

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Re: Chapter 45: discussion
« Reply #15 on: January 12, 2016, 12:59:45 pm »
She's Moby, and she's a tailor.

http://flipside.keenspot.com/comic.php?i=1072

While she could be potentially sinister, this is sorta on par with suspecting the person who bakes your bread of poisoning you. In this age of preservatives, maybe, but typically some sense of trust is needed to keep us all from going paranoid.
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

sunphoenix

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Re: Chapter 45: discussion
« Reply #16 on: January 13, 2016, 07:48:42 pm »
Ah.. Thanks for the reminder Mrs Vegita.

Actually, Moby is kinda cute... I think Crest could do much worse than end up hocked up with her, she's kinda sweet.

Not that I would want Crest to NOT accept Suspiria's professed love... it at least seemed clear to me that Crest did not share those feelings for her last time, yeah friendship... but not at that point love for her.  Perhaps he might come to love Moby... but of course the same could be said of Suspiria as well.  Though one thing that STILL puts me on Suspiria's side is the fact that she told Crest she knew he did not exactly feel the same way for her.. and she was cool with that... she just wanted him to have no doubts as to how she felt about him.

Non-possessive love is very cool.  So.. I like Suspiria... and until something concrete shows her as a bad-guy... I'm STILL a fan of hers.

And I STILL think Moby feels something more for Crest than just the casual acquaintance congeniality.  A woman who keeps coming to your side in support when everyone else seems willing to let you walk away... is sending a message...that unfortunately.. most men {including} me... many times miss or take for granted.
"...no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free.  No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything - you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is Kill him." - Robert A. Heinlein


TheCollector

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Re: Chapter 45: discussion
« Reply #17 on: January 13, 2016, 10:17:57 pm »
Ok so     Does anyone else feel like Moby is playing reverse psychology on Crest here? Cause I'm getting serious reverse psychology vibes from this page.

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Re: Chapter 45: discussion
« Reply #18 on: January 15, 2016, 06:32:18 am »
DAMN THEM ALL! The rat bastards ARE working with Qtalda!  >:(
"...no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free.  No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything - you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is Kill him." - Robert A. Heinlein


Daisuki-chan

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Re: Chapter 45: discussion
« Reply #19 on: January 15, 2016, 05:54:32 pm »
Did you think the group spontaneously formed or what?

sunphoenix

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Re: Chapter 45: discussion
« Reply #20 on: January 15, 2016, 10:11:21 pm »
Did you think the group spontaneously formed or what?

I was hoping the group was only interested in the Public safety... but now I'm pretty sure that is NOT the actual motivation behind Qtalda, who is directing it all...

Remember this... Last Cell...

http://flipside.keenspot.com/comic.php?i=1969

It was clear Qtalda intended to murder again to protect the dirty secret she and the Counsel were keeping, and they ALL went along with it... murder is murder despite the justifications for it.  It was also clear that the 'figurehead' of the Counsel... ALSO thought Suspiria's parents were still alive... so its clear to me that the Amberynth Network are either JUST as duplicitous as the Counsel or just as in the dark as the now-dead counsel leader.

When Crest finds out they are working for Qtalda.. who was very likely going to kill him he had been found in the forest in their search {doubt she'd risk memory altering again as it failed with Suspiria}... this is going to do WONDERS for his "lack of trust issues"! {Sigh}
« Last Edit: January 15, 2016, 10:13:00 pm by sunphoenix »
"...no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free.  No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything - you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is Kill him." - Robert A. Heinlein


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Re: Chapter 45: discussion
« Reply #21 on: January 16, 2016, 01:35:25 am »
Well, I don't know how the group formed but I assumed Crest knew Qtalda was part of its formation. Qtalda did directly meet with Crest (or good enough) to give her side of the story, after all.

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Re: Chapter 45: discussion
« Reply #22 on: January 16, 2016, 04:02:48 am »
When did she do that?  As far as I know.. Qtalda has not been 'seen' again as yet...  I may be wrong about that.. if I am what page has she made a official new appearance on since the spell-backfire?
"...no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free.  No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything - you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is Kill him." - Robert A. Heinlein


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Re: Chapter 45: discussion
« Reply #23 on: January 16, 2016, 05:42:59 pm »

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Re: Chapter 45: discussion
« Reply #24 on: January 16, 2016, 06:40:15 pm »
http://flipside.keenspot.com/comic.php?i=2301

Ok.. I feel like an idiot.. completely forgot that! :)

I guess I'm in the same ballpark as Crest.. I don't know who to believe.. but I certainly think the; 'We were ALL mind controlled to say those things...', is a load of crap!

Again I come back to my original point of view... What possible reason would Suspiria have to put on that entire dog & pony show... JUST for Crest's benefit?  If she had the power to control minds so thoroughly.. why not just MAKE Crest love/believe in her!  Heck she didn't EVEN use that 'alleged' power to coerce Crest to give her the affection she so wanted and just have her way with him..EVEN just once... she likely could have made him believe he wanted her {which.. I'm not entirely convinced in some part of his heart he did not desire her..small as it might be}, or even just erased the 'coupling' from his memories.

Occam's razor -

"other things being equal, simpler explanations are generally better than more complex ones"

I STILL Think Qtalda's lying and she has the magical power to cover her tracks by altering other people's memories... but only time will tell the truth.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2016, 06:45:43 pm by sunphoenix »
"...no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free.  No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything - you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is Kill him." - Robert A. Heinlein


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Re: Chapter 45: discussion
« Reply #25 on: January 16, 2016, 06:55:25 pm »
I agree that it's flimsy, but there would still be some chance that Suspiria wanted "genuine" loyalty/other from Crest based on lies more than she wanted to just turn Crest into a puppet directly. That or she wants to use him somehow where such mind control would be discovered, undermining her plan.

bulmabriefs144

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Re: Chapter 45: discussion
« Reply #26 on: January 18, 2016, 11:19:13 pm »
Quote

Again I come back to my original point of view... What possible reason would Suspiria have to put on that entire dog & pony show... JUST for Crest's benefit?  If she had the power to control minds so thoroughly.. why not just MAKE Crest love/believe in her!  Heck she didn't EVEN use that 'alleged' power to coerce Crest to give her the affection she so wanted and just have her way with him..EVEN just once... she likely could have made him believe he wanted her {which.. I'm not entirely convinced in some part of his heart he did not desire her..small as it might be}, or even just erased the 'coupling' from his memories.

Occam's razor -

"other things being equal, simpler explanations are generally better than more complex ones"

I STILL Think Qtalda's lying and she has the magical power to cover her tracks by altering other people's memories... but only time will tell the truth.

I think you're overthinking this.

From what we've seen of Suspiria, she tends to use direct magic. It also seems like in Flipside universe, people tend to learn spells that suit their personality.  Qtalda is a creepy killer, so she has a death bug spell. Suspiria tends to rely on spells that are reflection, flight, and raw power and very to the point (no illusions then). So it wouldn't stand to reason she's been playing a manipulation game, unless she started even at the point where we first met her. That explanation is so hopelessly complicated it makes no sense.

On the other hand, a simple "but here are her parents? See?" sham is rather easy to pull off. If Crest chills out a bit, he'd get just how flimsy that lie seems.

http://flipside.keenspot.com/comic.php?i=2317
http://flipside.keenspot.com/comic.php?i=2319
http://flipside.keenspot.com/comic.php?i=1951

Also. This makes no sense. She appeared in front of her classmates, hurt but not killed them and destroyed the wall of her room.  From an even basic read of the situation, this is not a manipulator, this is someone out for revenge.
Her "violent" side, considering her awesome power, was relatively controlled. Her classmates hurt her, but aren't the target of her revenge. On the other hand, their first action is to use lethal force against her. Further, Qtalda admits to erasing her memories, killing her parents, the whole bit. But only Crest and Suspiria know this, and Qtalda pulls out these people to call her motives and sanity into question. What were her motives if not revenge?

 What really troubles me is the whole deal where Qtalda's body is elsewhere. We have no idea what this person looks like.

Quote
I agree that it's flimsy, but there would still be some chance that Suspiria wanted "genuine" loyalty/other from Crest based on lies more than she wanted to just turn Crest into a puppet directly. That or she wants to use him somehow where such mind control would be discovered, undermining her plan.

It most definitely does not add up.

  • We have not seen her use mind control, just truth spells
  • Qtalda, on the other hand, not only admitted his crimes, but has erased memories before. This implies someone skilled at manipulating events
  • He only admitted this to someone he was sure would die, and mentioned "searching the forest" for witnesses. Meaning this was something he definitely did not want anyone to know about.
  • If she only wanted trust, she could have done it in a better way than risking her body with a decay spell, putting him in a situation where she had to cure him.
  • It is possible this is a massive illusion. We do not know the Flipside rules about illusions, but I would assume most of them, aside from the big one of the Qualia have certain limitations, such as an issue with touch not matching up to sight. So, Crest was decaying from the spell fallout until her stabbed himself. He definitely felt that. And it definitely made an effect on her decay. She would have to be a first rate illusionist to make the effect match up to everything with the right timing. And Crest would have been able to test the workings of the sword from his swordfight on return to town.
  • From this, we can conclude there is no illusion or mind control. Just a simple con artist job by a wizard who could be anyone. Including a "harmless pervert."

The simplest explanation involves no mind control:

Suspiria is troubled and angry but not insane, there is some definite stuff going on here, without any manipulation from her. Qtalda is produced fake "parents" to throw shadow on her accusations of dead parents. She probably even had them "move into town" and introduce themselves so as many people as possible knew them. Suspiria thought she was crazy, everyone else didn't know better.  I also think this is less "mind control" and more Qtalda using Jedi mind tricks to make what he's saying sound reasonable. As in, Qtalda isn't controlling minds so much as propping up words and "proof" with magic. Everyone acted like they took stupid pills, and didn't question why she would randomly attack someone with no motive.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2016, 11:46:42 pm by bulmabriefs144 »
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

Daisuki-chan

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Re: Chapter 45: discussion
« Reply #27 on: January 19, 2016, 04:36:09 pm »
You seem to think flimsy or complicated or unusual for the story should make it exceedingly unlikely, and go with the standard explanation. This explanation could be completely right, but hopefully there are some alterations that spice it up. I'm simply taking an agnostic stance while recognizing that it's hard to take Qtalda's explanation seriously. Anyway, asking why Suspiria did things when she's been physically and even mentally altered (either her memories were altered or unaltered (with alteration likely possible alongside this due to actual unalteration being provably possible due to occurring) when she was monsterized) is somewhat meaningless, as she could have reasons now that she would not have before, even if she believed the same information before.

bulmabriefs144

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Re: Chapter 45: discussion
« Reply #28 on: January 20, 2016, 03:36:27 am »
I suppose this is true. I'm just putting together the facts to arrive at a conclusion. No matter what, there are certain ways a story has to happen, given previous information.

For example, in a creation story we know that everything we see in this world is a result of natural or human causes. Rocks form from earthquakes, water from moisture buildup, trees from seeds, manmade objects from humans. Given this, creation stories never involve creation out of nothing. Instead either:
1. A law is behind creation (either scientific or cosmic like the Tao)
2. A force (big bang)
3. Creation from some sort of primordial egg
4. Or some sort of deity
5. Or humans created their own universe

That is, I'm not talking about creation stories. I'm talking about, in the above situation mythmakers and scientists alike use the information they already know.

Yes, there probably will be a surprise. But the working theory is that either suspiria is telling the truth, or she doesn't know the truth due to mental distortion of the seed of power. If she was using the heroes, we have to examine her behavior even prior to meeting and assume something strange like that she sent Bloody Mary. Studying Kindred reveals how unlikely that is.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2016, 03:48:18 am by bulmabriefs144 »
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

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Re: Chapter 45: discussion
« Reply #29 on: January 20, 2016, 05:51:13 am »
All true.. I agree.. but one thing I do not agree on...

I believe Qtalda is lying about her body not being present at the time.. some-thing was there and we can 'see' it walking away...

http://flipside.keenspot.com/comic.php?i=1995

So Qtalda is something she does not want everyone else to know!

...and for the record...

http://flipside.keenspot.com/comic.php?i=1959

...I find Suspiria Terribly SEXY in her new horned form!  :-[

Does that make me a bad person?
« Last Edit: January 20, 2016, 05:55:59 am by sunphoenix »
"...no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free.  No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything - you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is Kill him." - Robert A. Heinlein