Author Topic: Chapter 44: Discussion  (Read 12571 times)

bulmabriefs144

  • Cage Dancer
  • **
  • Posts: 392
  • Wielder of the Sword of Sorrow
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 44: Discussion
« Reply #30 on: September 14, 2015, 02:21:19 pm »
Pffft.



I'm thinking either this, or possibly some false relax deal, where suddenly the pressure is off, and the temptation is to rest, but instead she has to break into a dead run, and figure this fact out quick, or get flushed out. 

At this point, it's tricky to extrapolate a pattern, since we've only seen one.

Quote
You were spot-on about May. And yup most likely the third phase is pain, however i wonder if it's gonna be just the sensation of pain, and not actual harm. I'm also wondering how May is able to come back after advancing past first and second phase.. I get that the lady is taking her out, but would the person inside be able to communicate somehow that they're ok?

I think the challenges are as real (or fake) as the person entering makes them. As in, feeling the fear makes it drain you, believing in the phase 2 illusion makes that affect you, and phase 3 can cause actual damage (possibly reversible) if you take it too seriously.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2015, 02:57:47 pm by bulmabriefs144 »
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

dekutree64

  • Fresh Meat
  • Posts: 8
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 44: Discussion
« Reply #31 on: September 18, 2015, 02:46:12 pm »
Hmm, Corona's description actually does make sense for the first one to conquer phase 2. There's no way to know for sure whether the injuries are purely illusory, or if they're real but get magically reversed if you run away. It could be that the fear of the first phase was legitimate, because if you go in there, you'll get sliced to pieces until you die.

Maytag, on the other hand, knows that Corona has reached the end of phase 2 and lived to tell the tale. So it's pretty obvious that it's all an illusion, and therefore only a test of pain tolerance, which is no problem for her.

I can't wait to hear what phase 3 is. The first two, all you have to do is keep walking and nothing bad really happens. Corona attempts phase 3 every day, so it must not be anything that causes actual damage. Maybe it causes extreme tiredness? But I'm thinking it will be less straightforward than the first two. Maybe it causes memory loss, so you forget why it is that you're in there to begin with, and run away from all the bad stuff. Or it could just be a maze. That would explain Corona going in every day, gradually charting it.

bulmabriefs144

  • Cage Dancer
  • **
  • Posts: 392
  • Wielder of the Sword of Sorrow
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 44: Discussion
« Reply #32 on: September 18, 2015, 03:23:18 pm »
Now that we know (somewhat) the pattern of these phases, I can extrapolate to some degree.

These are based on human sensation, as in fear/pain/pleasure, etc. While there a ton of emotions, there are only a few sensations. I'm crossing the ones that have been done.

  • Fatigue
  • Pain
  • Confusion
  • Fear/Stress
  • Pleasure (Usually would have to be coupled with a sort of "tide" or the person is stuck there)
  • Numb
  • Death

It's like they say in business, you can work hard, or you can work smart. Corona is a hard worker, and just goes at something with a plow-through mentality. Maytag understands phase 2 rather than simply overcoming pain. Which leads me to think that phase 3 is something that you can't get through just by moving forward. Something where you have to stop and think about it first. ...Possibly confusion. "Four" is "death" in Asian cultures so I can imagine that one having progressive numbness until you effectively feel dead (if you accept this one, you probably die, but there's probably a way to bypass this).
« Last Edit: September 18, 2015, 04:34:55 pm by bulmabriefs144 »
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

TheCollector

  • Slave Groupie
  • *
  • Posts: 25
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 44: Discussion
« Reply #33 on: September 21, 2015, 04:48:16 am »
Welp, if anyone had any doubts still, I think it's pretty clear after that first panel that May definitely has some masochistic tendencies. 

IronSoul

  • Tender Young Virgin
  • *
  • Posts: 21
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Chapter 44: Discussion
« Reply #34 on: September 22, 2015, 10:42:07 pm »
One crazy thought I haven't seen anyone voice. Someone suggested that these tests could take place in the mind...but if that's true, is it possible that perhaps crazed individuals like Suspria are those that were also talked or coerced into going into the dark cell, and went insane as a result? I'm probably wrong and it's probably more than that, but it was something that occurred to me.

bulmabriefs144

  • Cage Dancer
  • **
  • Posts: 392
  • Wielder of the Sword of Sorrow
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 44: Discussion
« Reply #35 on: September 23, 2015, 08:15:06 am »
Possible, but unlikely. I think these tests are mainly to figure out exactly what these qualia are doing. That said, it does appear to be a largely mental journey.

He wanted Bloody Mary to test various biological effects, and especially to figure out how healing works.

He used Suspiria to test how the magical awakening process worked.

And now he's using Maytag to find out what exactly is behind the Dark Cell.

I'm sure there were previous experiments too.
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

SAGG

  • Red Light Worker
  • **
  • Posts: 215
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 44: Discussion
« Reply #36 on: September 24, 2015, 11:55:01 am »
Sounds to me like you're the one screwed up,  honey, not Maytag. She's dealing with her issues...

bulmabriefs144

  • Cage Dancer
  • **
  • Posts: 392
  • Wielder of the Sword of Sorrow
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 44: Discussion
« Reply #37 on: September 25, 2015, 04:08:08 am »
Now, the popular sequel to the online game DepressionQuest you've been waiting for! Check out PsychosisQuest. Muddle through your insanity or let it eat you alive. Your choice! Only $10.99.

Pffft. Depression Quest is a real game. The other is not, but I thought I'd make a faux ad.

Something tells me she's an experiment. Either in producing insanity or suppressing it. Possibly to understand the phase 1 they got someone who can adjust their emotions.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2015, 04:12:10 am by bulmabriefs144 »
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

wowfood

  • Tender Young Virgin
  • *
  • Posts: 11
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 44: Discussion
« Reply #38 on: September 25, 2015, 07:03:36 pm »
Honestly looking at this, I can see why May did so well in the second phase. 

First phase was fear which can't be ignored because it's magical fear, the acceptance technique would never work because it's magically induced as she said, and the fatigue was a bi-product of that fear.

The second phase being pain however, even if magically induced, can be ignored with the acceptance technique, and more on point, because May realised instantly that the harm wasn't permanent she could use it to experiment, feel degrees of pain whilst knowing that no real harm will come to her.  It's not about facing your mortalitiy because you know you aren't going to die, after that it's acknowledging what pain feels like and accepting that pain.

I actually wonder if this is some kind of warrior training.  Phase one forces you to face a fear that cannot be faced, whilst pushing you to a physical limit.  The second phase builds on that fear with physical pain, but no actual harm comes to you so it's learning to fight on in spite of the pain, or in maytags case become accustomed to it.

It's not something somebody who's emotionally dead can deal with, but somebody who has near perfect control of their emotions could.

I wonder if stage 3 will be something akin to a full psychological assault.  Phase 1 is artificial fear, phase 2 is artificial pain.  What if phase 3 is more real than that, showing you what you truely fear the most, causing pain in ways that affect you not only physically but psychologically.

While May can ignore the pain happening to herself, what if phase three were to be something along the lines of visions of Bernadette being raped and tortured, even if she knows it isn't real, I don't think May would be able to ignore it. 

mittfh

  • Rose Petal Acolyte
  • **
  • Posts: 116
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 44: Discussion
« Reply #39 on: September 28, 2015, 11:44:00 am »
I wonder if stage 3 will be something akin to a full psychological assault.  Phase 1 is artificial fear, phase 2 is artificial pain.  What if phase 3 is more real than that, showing you what you truely fear the most, causing pain in ways that affect you not only physically but psychologically.

While May can ignore the pain happening to herself, what if phase three were to be something along the lines of visions of Bernadette being raped and tortured, even if she knows it isn't real, I don't think May would be able to ignore it.

You're not too far off, but I'd imagine despair (as has now been revealed) would be like seeing Bern being raped or brutally killed and knowing there's absolutely nothing she can do to prevent it.

sunphoenix

  • Cage Dancer
  • **
  • Posts: 348
  • "..you have to give love to get love." -Wendy Pini
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Chapter 44: Discussion
« Reply #40 on: September 28, 2015, 12:59:20 pm »
Uhm... I'm not so sure seeing Bern hurt would be as painful as ...

Bern abandoning her... despising her opened heart... and rejecting her love. 

Despair is not about  immediate pain... its not about immediate fear.  Those things can be endured and/or fought with willpower or courage... cause you know they will eventually end. 

Despair is about KNOWING there is no point in the future when you will ever feel anything BUT fear or pain...  its is the end of all hope of love or happiness or anything else that makes life worth living.  Despair is acid of the spirit, turning all that one loves into ashe... until one begs for death just to end the suffering.  It cannot be fought and enduring it is pointless why bother it will never end?

THAT is despair.
"...no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free.  No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything - you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is Kill him." - Robert A. Heinlein


dekutree64

  • Fresh Meat
  • Posts: 8
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 44: Discussion
« Reply #41 on: September 28, 2015, 01:36:45 pm »
Hmm, I hope we actually get to see what phase 3 is like. Sure, despair is awful, but how does dark cell get you to feel it when you know it's all fake? Unless, like my theory before, it causes memory loss. Though in this case it would have to be selective, so you don't remember how you got there or that it's not real, but do still remember the people that it's showing you.

But even then it's not impossible. It's just a matter of figuring out a way to remind yourself what's going on. Like writing a message on your hand, or training yourself to do some sort of check anytime things seem weird, like the checks you can do to figure out if you're dreaming or awake.

bulmabriefs144

  • Cage Dancer
  • **
  • Posts: 392
  • Wielder of the Sword of Sorrow
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 44: Discussion
« Reply #42 on: September 28, 2015, 06:07:26 pm »
I think I understand why she says that it's impossible.

The Fear phase is just an illusion, the actual problem is fatigue.

The Pain phase causes actual pain, but the fact is that pain is not actually the same as injury.

The Despair phase is about despair. What does that entail?


The point of despair is that it seems to have no end. That things don't appear to get better no matter how hard you try, or how long you live. Other people may see progress, but you see no change. This is what Maytag means by it being impossible, that there is no hope or way out, by definition.

I think I have the answer to that however. These emotions are not truth.

http://www.peaceandhealing.com/psychology/despair/

This was a good article.

Hmmmm... Replaces your history with one of despair. So it's not really a memory removal (i.e. you can learn from it) so much as a past replacement. I remember a point in my life where it simply went nowhere. I was able to fish myself out with the help of a dear friend. But until that happened, career, happiness, and life was kinda in a dead-end for almost 7 years. It was a mess. Even if your life was only boring, not unhappy, this would be pretty hard.

I think May either needs a completely ripple-proof memory or to be able to not give a damn whether the thing shows her depressing memories, and just keep walking on.

I just had a ton of dreams where I suddenly remembered I had super powers. It's sorta like waking up, and realizing humans can't do such things.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2015, 03:27:15 am by bulmabriefs144 »
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

Stargoat

  • Hot Streaker
  • **
  • Posts: 444
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 44: Discussion
« Reply #43 on: October 05, 2015, 08:05:06 pm »
Dude looks a little freaky.

bulmabriefs144

  • Cage Dancer
  • **
  • Posts: 392
  • Wielder of the Sword of Sorrow
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 44: Discussion
« Reply #44 on: October 06, 2015, 09:40:55 am »
Dat finger. I have an Objection to it.
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

mittfh

  • Rose Petal Acolyte
  • **
  • Posts: 116
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 44: Discussion
« Reply #45 on: October 10, 2015, 04:39:30 pm »
Although Corona hasn't managed Phase 3 in seven years and May hasn't done so in the past few days, she appears to have an idea on they may be able to get through that phase. Perhaps instead of individuals going solo, they try going in as a group, with a mutual support system going to remind each other it's just like a dream and nothing bad is going on externally.

Daisuki-chan

  • Rose Petal Acolyte
  • **
  • Posts: 106
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 44: Discussion
« Reply #46 on: October 10, 2015, 08:38:36 pm »
I would try writing down a message to myself or practicing lucid dreaming. I assume you can't pass just by sending more people in there at once.

bulmabriefs144

  • Cage Dancer
  • **
  • Posts: 392
  • Wielder of the Sword of Sorrow
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 44: Discussion
« Reply #47 on: October 11, 2015, 04:31:45 am »
I was thinking the message to self, and lucid dreaming is definitely a way to remember, though I'm not sure whether these guys know about it.
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

mittfh

  • Rose Petal Acolyte
  • **
  • Posts: 116
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 44: Discussion
« Reply #48 on: October 12, 2015, 12:34:19 am »
May certainly likes keeping Lehm on his toes... :)

9_6

  • Guest
Re: Chapter 44: Discussion
« Reply #49 on: October 12, 2015, 09:11:06 am »
I guess she wants to ensure her horrible murdery end once she outlived her usefulness.
It's unlikely she'll actually walk out there with 20 million to begin with. Haggling is just a deathwish.

bulmabriefs144

  • Cage Dancer
  • **
  • Posts: 392
  • Wielder of the Sword of Sorrow
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 44: Discussion
« Reply #50 on: October 12, 2015, 04:26:31 pm »
She's betting.

She wants to see if he'll raise. As in, just how much this is worth it to him. If he refuses, he obviously isn't really there for the right reason, so to speak.

He'll probably tell her "Only if you go all the way."
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

wowfood

  • Tender Young Virgin
  • *
  • Posts: 11
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 44: Discussion
« Reply #51 on: October 15, 2015, 06:10:45 pm »
It looks like she's trying to weigh up exactly how much this whole shebang is worth to Lehm.  He offered 20, she raises to 50 and he'll make the deal.  If she then makes it to the middle and finds the answer Lehm is looking for, I wonder if she won't try to raise the stakes even higher. 

As for how she'll get there.  There's any number of possibilities.  We already know she's unique in that she can effectively shut off emotions if she's prepared to.  I don't the the acceptance technique is the only card up her sleeve.  I think she can go back to her childhood mask if she needs to.  Go to land of despair, limit emotional output and keep on walking.

Another alternative would possibly be lucid dreaming.  They've all described this as a dream, where the dream becomes your reality.  If may is able to lucid dream at will, and considering her pyschology it really wouldn't surprise me, she may be able to remember she's in the dream and keep on walking.

Or the third alternative, which is cheating the system, doing something to herself such that she's forced to keep on walking, maybe self hypnosis, maybe a thumbtack in the front of her shoe, who knows. 

But in all likelyhood it's none of the above.

9_6

  • Guest
Re: Chapter 44: Discussion
« Reply #52 on: October 15, 2015, 09:10:57 pm »
I don't know.

It seems more like a sign that she'll actually never walk out of there if he readily accepts more and more ridiculous prices.
All of those guys are probably pretty badass and could turn her inside-out by just thinking about it and if the info is really that valuable to lehm, why would they let her walk out into the wide world with it?
She already knows too much and erasing memories probably won't be good enough for those guys.

The real problem seems to be how joe shmoe can safely get out of a deal with dr manhattan and the only answer is probably that she never will.
Her only chance is to become of invaluable importance to them and maintain that position kinda like a programmer who incorporates their style of coding that is hard for newcomers to get behind into a vital piece of software so the company will think twice about firing them.

bulmabriefs144

  • Cage Dancer
  • **
  • Posts: 392
  • Wielder of the Sword of Sorrow
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 44: Discussion
« Reply #53 on: October 16, 2015, 05:24:26 am »
Speaking of programming and stuff, someone mentioned this as warriors training. I disagreed because Bern is more the warrior.
I do however think the key to being useful, is to find a way to gain abilities from this. Either being able to communicate with Qualia or a sort of antimagic. Or Lucy-like reality powers.

At the very least, if she gets past this, he can't erase her memories because she would know how to keep them.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2015, 05:29:29 am by bulmabriefs144 »
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

Abstract Vagabond

  • Guest
Re: Chapter 44: Discussion
« Reply #54 on: November 04, 2015, 07:04:16 pm »
"And that brings us to the second problem...

... you'll misunderstand the message and think your arm isn't real."

And then suddenly, Mannequin 3.

bulmabriefs144

  • Cage Dancer
  • **
  • Posts: 392
  • Wielder of the Sword of Sorrow
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 44: Discussion
« Reply #55 on: November 05, 2015, 01:12:14 pm »
 :P

The second problem being that we associate pain with being real, hence the whole "pinching yourself" deal.

You need someone else there to simply tell you this is not real. Maytag, you're in a webcomic.
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

mittfh

  • Rose Petal Acolyte
  • **
  • Posts: 116
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 44: Discussion
« Reply #56 on: November 07, 2015, 07:59:25 am »
So they've confirmed that visual stimuli to remind yourself it's not real don't work. It wouldn't surprise me if they've tried taking aural messages in with them (e.g. recording stones) and those have also failed. I wonder if they have tried taking others in with them?

I wonder how Bloody Mary would cope if she could be tracked down and brought into the facility?

bulmabriefs144

  • Cage Dancer
  • **
  • Posts: 392
  • Wielder of the Sword of Sorrow
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 44: Discussion
« Reply #57 on: November 08, 2015, 02:09:39 pm »
I'm pretty sure the only way past this is to fight this version of reality with her own. Not so much trying to remember, as trying to kinda be like "I know how Bern is, she would never do this!" or something. They've tried all sorts of remembering techniques, but I think this is it, she simply has to be tougher than the forces trying to get her to forget.
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

Abstract Vagabond

  • Guest
Re: Chapter 44: Discussion
« Reply #58 on: November 09, 2015, 03:58:28 pm »
So much for the going as a group idea.

bulmabriefs144

  • Cage Dancer
  • **
  • Posts: 392
  • Wielder of the Sword of Sorrow
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 44: Discussion
« Reply #59 on: November 09, 2015, 06:10:57 pm »
Well, it's a good theory. But it's much like having an interesting experience (let's say the results of a vision quest) and trying to convince a room full of people who are completely unsuperstitious. Their experiences basically are a filter here, and they see only what they see, so you can't convince them and they can't convince you of anything.

You and your twin could probably share enough experiences that this would work, but otherwise...
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison