Author Topic: Chapter 44: Discussion  (Read 12633 times)

bulmabriefs144

  • Cage Dancer
  • **
  • Posts: 395
  • Wielder of the Sword of Sorrow
    • View Profile
Chapter 44: Discussion
« on: July 28, 2015, 07:27:15 pm »
First post!  ;D I'm not sure if Brion always starts these threads, in which case, sorry.

Well, two comics now, so may as well get started. When last we saw May she'd pretty much given up on the Dark Cell. It's not clear whether time has passed or whether we're rewinding to that point (the problem of split perspective).

So yea, she doesn't seem to have much motivation. Probably because she wants to go back and perform at something she's good at versus "oh hey why not  walk through this impossible dark chamber while you're preoccupied with your own stuff." Seriously, they have horrible timing, given that she was in the middle of performance.

I have a beef with them wiping her memories. First off, who does that? That's straight out of MIB spooks stuff. Second, he's all like "I don't like forcing anyone to do anything" as he said in an earlier chapter, ummm the thing is, other people's memories aren't yours to take! That's precisely the definition of a manipulator, they either view people  as useful to them or get rid of them. People have inherent worth, whether or not they do anything dramatic with their life.

Third, and this is important, it's her memory so it's not a given that she'd be happier without these memories, even if he managed to deliver her back in time for the performance (which btw if you've made her miss, she'd have happy memories of the event then be broke and without options, which is kinda... cruel I guess), there is a difference between knowing the truth and doing the mundane and not knowing anything and the same. It's like Jupiter Ascending, after the adventure she had a brush with greatness, and so rather than her crappy janitor job being a personal hell where "I hate my life" it was just part of things and she could do it with enthusiasm. Or to put it traditionally, there's a story about a monk who before enlightenment chopped wood and carried water. What did he do after? He chopped wood and carried water. The difference however was him, and how he viewed life. Erasing her memories is taking that away from her.

That's my thoughts. Other observations?
« Last Edit: August 01, 2015, 02:32:29 am by bulmabriefs144 »
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

Brion Foulke

  • Administrator
  • Experimental
  • *****
  • Posts: 771
    • AOL Instant Messenger - flipsider99
    • View Profile
    • www.flipsidecomics.com
    • Email
Re: Chapter 44: Discussion
« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2015, 10:32:29 am »
It's cool, thanks for starting a new thread.

bulmabriefs144

  • Cage Dancer
  • **
  • Posts: 395
  • Wielder of the Sword of Sorrow
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 44: Discussion
« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2015, 04:44:48 am »
Is it weird that nobody is posting? Sure, I said enough for everyone, but still.
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

Brion Foulke

  • Administrator
  • Experimental
  • *****
  • Posts: 771
    • AOL Instant Messenger - flipsider99
    • View Profile
    • www.flipsidecomics.com
    • Email
Re: Chapter 44: Discussion
« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2015, 10:29:29 am »
Sometimes it's just slow.

sunphoenix

  • Cage Dancer
  • **
  • Posts: 349
  • "..you have to give love to get love." -Wendy Pini
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Chapter 44: Discussion
« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2015, 11:40:51 pm »
Hmmm... interesting.

I'm actually more interested in figuring Maytag out herself... is she a 'functional' sociopath?  'Functional' meaning she is not inspired to murder people for some nebulous reason that is completely unrealatable to by sane people. 

Not saying that Maytag is insane.. just curious is she kinda like Dexter, just without the murderous hunter predilection for hunting and murdering serial killers?  I mean, as far as I know~ a sociopath does not understand or relate to people in the normal fashion of emotional or moral responses that non-sociopaths do as they simply do not understand or comprehend the emotional or moral significance or attachment sane people have to their actions. 

A Sociopath doesn't see any difference from petting a puppy that has injured its leg to comfort it... with bashing a child's head in with a hammer cause she spilled her juice cup on the floor as punishment~ no correlation or emotional response to either action as good or bad registers with a sociopath.  I don't "think" Maytag is dangerous.. but she is certainly .. not emotionally in the same starting point as 'sane' people... whatever "sane" means...

I'd like to like Maytag.. and hope she is not a danger to those around her... but she is creepy.  My heart wants to think she can be 'helped' by her relationship with Bern... but that might be hubris or just plain sophistry... to think she needs 'fixing'.  She seems sweet enough... but is Maytag... like Dexter.. just Very good at fooling people into not seeing her for what she Really is?

That's scary.  People like that you have no idea what would cause them to snap.. and suddenly be very dangerous.  But I really, REALLY, R.E.A.L.L.Y. ... want to like Maytag and not be afraid of and for her!  She seems stable enough... let's hope that continues...
« Last Edit: August 15, 2015, 11:34:51 am by sunphoenix »
"...no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free.  No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything - you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is Kill him." - Robert A. Heinlein


Abstract Vagabond

  • Guest
Re: Chapter 44: Discussion
« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2015, 10:19:05 am »
That's scary.  People like that you have no idea what would cause them to snap.. and suddenly be very dangerous.  But I really, REALLY, R.E.A.L.L.Y. ... want to like Maytag and not be afraid of and for her!  She seems stable enough... let's hope that continues...

Given the chapter cover page, I wonder about that.

bulmabriefs144

  • Cage Dancer
  • **
  • Posts: 395
  • Wielder of the Sword of Sorrow
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 44: Discussion
« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2015, 04:00:10 pm »
Hmmm... interesting.

I'm actually more interested in figuring Maytag out herself... is she a 'functional' sociopath?  'Functional' meaning she is not inspired to murder people for some nebulous reason that is completely unrealatable to by sane people.

(Never seen Dexter)

She seems sweet enough... but is Maytag... like Dexter.. just Very good at fooling people into not seeing her for what she Really is?

That's scary.  People like that you have no idea what would cause them to snap...

Given my research on this subject online (yes, I actually do research the comic content, I'm a geek  ;D) and watching several shows and movies (Heroes, the K-Drama I Remember You, & The Girl Who Sees Smells for shows; Confessions of a Sociopathic Social Climber (comedic, but it provides insight into the mentality of a sociopath) and A Werewolf Boy (notthe main character, the guy "paying their rent") and especially The Lovely Bones), I have discovered that there is a difference between an emotionally cold person (which May is), and a sociopath.

There are at least three states that have emotional disconnect that have nothing to do with sociopathy:
  • Trauma
  • Schizoid personality "disorder"
  • Schizophrenia (which has nothing to do with the one above, schizoid is the inability to feel strong emotions, this is hallucinations and delusions. They have in common the detachment, so similar name)
  • Depression

http://albertellis.org/personality-disorders/

Narcissism, schizoid, and ASPD (psychopath) all have lack of empathy as a symptom, but they are wildly different disorders. Bottom line, there are alot of reasons people "snap" and there are alot of reasons people are emotionally cold. Psychopathy should never be assumed to be at the top of the list, unless you see stuff like tormenting animals.
 
A person who is a genuine sociopath has several common characteristics, aside from coldness.
  • Sociopaths generally don't "snap". If you are capable of snapping, you are something else. Sociopaths grow up learning to enjoy hurting things, and generally are allowed to get away with it. It is also theorized that disciplinarian homes tend to church out this type as the parents are only interested in the letter of the law not in actual human kindness.
  • Sociopaths are not overtly cold. There was one article about how everyone on the bus avoids the deadpan person. Along with the guy talking to himself. The guy talking to himself is a schizophrenic, and probably paranoid. As long as you are pleasant to him and not overly creepy, he won't hurt you. The schizoid won't hurt you probably period, except in self-defence or of loved ones (the latter he has difficulty connecting with). The one you actually should be afraid of is the charming handsome guy next to you (think, what does the deadpan guy or the crazy person want from you? Probably nothing, hence you guys are leaving each other alone. Now, what does an uncharacteristically charming person want from you? Well, anything. The might want you to inflate their ego if you're attractive. They might want to abuse you once you are used to them. Or they might want to kill you. Regardless, they are trying to talk you into letting them into your life. Say "not interested" or try to quietly leave without getting killed)
  • There is no such thing as a high-functioning sociopath. There are, sure, sociopaths that are skillful at blending in modern society. But re-read what I just said. They are "skillful at blending in modern society". Think about the policemen that pulled you over just to give you a ticket, manhandles you with brutality, and so on. Think about the CEO that runs thousands of employees, and treats them like slaves (I'm looking at you, Jeff Bezos). A sociopath naturally competes with others at all costs, and is as ruthless in the office setting as they are in a direct confrontation. They either kill overtly, or kill by driving other people into poverty and despair. And they are sadists. Maytag only considers sadism as a sexual kink, and not seriously
  • Sociopaths fancy themselves as clever. But some of their assumptions about other people are overly simplistic or outright childish.
  • Sociopathy tends to go hand in hand with narcissism. Believing you have the right to do anything to another person, is just short of doing it, and many narcissists are indeed killers.
  • A study on sociopaths showed that punishment has virtually no impact on them. Rewards, however, well this is pretty much why they live is to get perks. They had sociopaths studied who usually after release who get jailed again for murder. So they tried an experiment where they gave people stuff for controlling the urge to manipulate others. It worked. They were only 60% likely to kill people rather than pretty much 99% of the sociopaths elsewhere.
 

That said, Maytag has some definite crazy. But it's good crazy. She definitely has the ability to feel remorse, and seems at least annoyed when things go her way. Being scary doesn't mean you necessarily can't be a hero.

Key point. She worries that she is that type of person. Using simple logic, a person who worries about something like that, usually isn't. Because such a person by their nature doesn't care if they hurt others. If she was trying to convince others, I'd say so. But this is her own internal reasoning. She is afraid what is behind the mask. This implies that it is something different from what she thinks it is.

I am not a therapist, btw. I have researched this because I have had emotional coldness when I thought I should feel something, and was worried. So I looked it up.

Or to put it more briefly... Ummm, guys look Word of God.

Quote from: BrionFoulke
As for Maytag being a psychopath, she is not.  She has real feelings for other people, and always has.  She is just very different from other people.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2015, 04:50:58 pm by bulmabriefs144 »
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

Brion Foulke

  • Administrator
  • Experimental
  • *****
  • Posts: 771
    • AOL Instant Messenger - flipsider99
    • View Profile
    • www.flipsidecomics.com
    • Email
Re: Chapter 44: Discussion
« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2015, 05:00:12 pm »
Really cool post, thanks Bulma.

AnonTheMouse

  • Fresh Meat
  • Posts: 6
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 44: Discussion
« Reply #8 on: August 19, 2015, 04:23:11 am »
Psychopathy should never be assumed to be at the top of the list, unless you see stuff like tormenting animals.

Remember the time she cut herself up while calmly explaining how fucking ice-cold and dangerous she was? Or the other time she did basically the same thing?

bulmabriefs144

  • Cage Dancer
  • **
  • Posts: 395
  • Wielder of the Sword of Sorrow
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 44: Discussion
« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2015, 04:47:29 am »
Masochism is about the opposite of psychopathy. The whole dangerous thing was just a pose.

In reality, psycho types tend to be sadists not masochists. The people who mutilate their own bodies? Suicidals, borderlines, autists, and schizophrenic. The first two due to emotional depression, and the last two because they are out of touch. A psycho only hurts themselves if they can frame other peoole (I think there was a movie called Fear where this guy beat himself up to make it look like the other guy did it).
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

SAGG

  • Red Light Worker
  • **
  • Posts: 217
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 44: Discussion
« Reply #10 on: August 22, 2015, 04:28:21 pm »
Awww, poor Maytag. And here Bern's about to cheat on her. Talk about trust....  :P

bulmabriefs144

  • Cage Dancer
  • **
  • Posts: 395
  • Wielder of the Sword of Sorrow
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 44: Discussion
« Reply #11 on: August 22, 2015, 08:41:12 pm »
Yeah, that's what sucks about all of this. Hopefully Polly and her can figure something else out.

In other news, I recognize those steps. Maytag is at the stairs near the Dark Cell. Which means things may get interesting soon. Assuming she can figure out what to do about her fear.
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

sunphoenix

  • Cage Dancer
  • **
  • Posts: 349
  • "..you have to give love to get love." -Wendy Pini
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Chapter 44: Discussion
« Reply #12 on: August 26, 2015, 04:55:27 pm »
Hmmm.. fear.  I don't think I have ever been so afraid that I was in a panic.  As a child I use to be afraid of the dark.. but I confronted that and defeated in as far as I am not paralyzed by walking into darkness.

I keep hearing "Fear is the mindkiller, I will face my fear"... lol.  But I guess you really can't say how you would react to blind unreasoning fear unless you had faced it before.

I like to think... like in the series of Novels - 'The Chtorr War", by David Gerrold... the "Mode Training".. that I would be able to recognize that fear is a choice to feel and that in the case of entering the Dark Cell it was not a useful emotional state to run on my biological Computer..that being my brain.. and I would be able to decide to not run that 'Mode of thought' and could act as I choose.

https://www.google.com/search?q=the+chtorrr+war&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

Would be nice if human mentality could be trained to work that way... but perhaps its for the best it's not.  THAT would be a scary world in my opinion... where emotions could be coldly  and dispassionately changed and not felt.  {shrug}.. Would seem to me that no emotional reaction would genuine if that were the case... and I just don't believe that. 

LOVE is real.  It is not so simple as a coldly decided "choice".

I believe in Love.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2015, 04:58:55 pm by sunphoenix »
"...no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free.  No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything - you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is Kill him." - Robert A. Heinlein


bulmabriefs144

  • Cage Dancer
  • **
  • Posts: 395
  • Wielder of the Sword of Sorrow
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 44: Discussion
« Reply #13 on: August 26, 2015, 08:46:06 pm »
I think I once tried to memorize that passage (I was a weird kid too). Hmmmm...

I must not  fear
Fear is the mindkiller
Fear is the little (forgot this part)
I will face my fear
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
When fear is gone there is nothing
Only I will remain.

There's like a Tibetan parable about this guy getting locked in a dark room after you die. You get exposed to monsters in this room, which you can face or flee, up to the number of days in the month you died. They get progressively weaker as each one is faced. If you run away from all of them, you'll reincarnate badly. If you face the first one, you ascend to the next level of consciousness and won't need to reincarnate any more (it was in a psych book under exposure theory).

I wonder if May is actually ready. She did some soul-searching, but was it enough?
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

TheCollector

  • Slave Groupie
  • *
  • Posts: 25
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 44: Discussion
« Reply #14 on: September 01, 2015, 01:32:42 am »
Hmm, does anyone else wonder if the whole feet up in the last panel, combinded with May's I wonder in the first means we may be seeing the Real Maytag next page. I certainly hope so. :3

bulmabriefs144

  • Cage Dancer
  • **
  • Posts: 395
  • Wielder of the Sword of Sorrow
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 44: Discussion
« Reply #15 on: September 01, 2015, 09:30:27 pm »
You can argue that while this is a mask, this doesn't mean that it's "fake" Maytag. Think about it this way. Suppose you like to read at home. You also like to go out with your friends and do stuff. We could say that one of these is a fake you. Or we can simply decide that these are different sides of you. Since most people don't show everything about themselves, even to close friends.

In May's case, this is a little different. She has a layered personality. Rather than different sides of her, it's more like a series of concentric circles.

(1) May's true self, something that none of us have likely seen (which would probably turn out to be a scared and/or emotional mess)
(2) May's deadpan self
(3) May's dual persona

While you could say #3 is a false personality, this doesn't add up. She had to build this personality from somewhere. If her true self were also deadpan, there would be no reason for #2 (it would be redundant). This means that #1 has emotions, but possibly needs the mask as a defense mechanism for dealing with pain, or because her real self was suppressed early on because it was odd/unruly/damaged/etc. Since neither #3 (not in character with either Jester personality, or the shy Maytag) nor #2 (not deadpan enough) would have said that loud "SHUT UP!" to the creepy maid girl, I think we got a peek at the Maytag behind the masks.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2015, 09:41:54 pm by bulmabriefs144 »
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

TheCollector

  • Slave Groupie
  • *
  • Posts: 25
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 44: Discussion
« Reply #16 on: September 02, 2015, 03:59:24 am »
You can argue that while this is a mask, this doesn't mean that it's "fake" Maytag. Think about it this way. Suppose you like to read at home. You also like to go out with your friends and do stuff. We could say that one of these is a fake you. Or we can simply decide that these are different sides of you. Since most people don't show everything about themselves, even to close friends.

In May's case, this is a little different. She has a layered personality. Rather than different sides of her, it's more like a series of concentric circles.

(1) May's true self, something that none of us have likely seen (which would probably turn out to be a scared and/or emotional mess)
(2) May's deadpan self
(3) May's dual persona

While you could say #3 is a false personality, this doesn't add up. She had to build this personality from somewhere. If her true self were also deadpan, there would be no reason for #2 (it would be redundant). This means that #1 has emotions, but possibly needs the mask as a defense mechanism for dealing with pain, or because her real self was suppressed early on because it was odd/unruly/damaged/etc. Since neither #3 (not in character with either Jester personality, or the shy Maytag) nor #2 (not deadpan enough) would have said that loud "SHUT UP!" to the creepy maid girl, I think we got a peek at the Maytag behind the masks.
I dunno about Scared. Emotional Mess maybe, but if that is who we're gonna be seeing next page, the whole feet up, ankles crossed posture kinda nixes out the possibility of Scared. You aren't usually so relaxed when filled with fear.

Unless you meant scared as in Scar and not Scare. I can never tell with that one.

bulmabriefs144

  • Cage Dancer
  • **
  • Posts: 395
  • Wielder of the Sword of Sorrow
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 44: Discussion
« Reply #17 on: September 02, 2015, 05:03:28 am »
Oh?

http://flipside.keenspot.com/comic.php?i=2183

She looks perfectly calm, relaxed even, here. And yet she's petrified with fear.

By scared I mean... well you know when you were a kid and you ran to mom? Or were all clingy? I suspect before Maytag even developed her memories, her mom (and dad?) basically made her feel guilty for needing others. Sort of "go away, my daughter wouldn't behave in such a manner." Probably other stuff too, like impulse control, crying, or tantrums. So she formed a mask, even from herself, which basically blocked out all emotion. By analysis, you can kinda see that her mask is built around avoiding fear, need, intimacy, and emotion. Logically, this means there is a natural store of all such things.

But it's probably stuck at that childhood level, because while she's built her persona outward, the actual personality hasn't developed much.

http://flipside.keenspot.com/comic.php?i=2609

So back to the opening picture. It's not an evil grin. It's a smirk. She's getting a natural rush from feeling pain. Normally, she does this acceptance trick, and has layers and layers of emotional walls. But we are assuming the walls are down here, and she legitimately has some masochistic tendencies.

Pfffft, this is a nice way of setting this up. Rather than the chore of wading through ten comics before she gets through, she just outright finishes, and the next comic will be like "prove it." Kinda explains the whole relaxed legs crossed deal too.

« Last Edit: September 02, 2015, 03:14:10 pm by bulmabriefs144 »
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

monimoni

  • Collared Pet
  • *
  • Posts: 86
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 44: Discussion
« Reply #18 on: September 05, 2015, 02:26:57 am »
So what is this "dark cell" exactly?

bulmabriefs144

  • Cage Dancer
  • **
  • Posts: 395
  • Wielder of the Sword of Sorrow
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 44: Discussion
« Reply #19 on: September 05, 2015, 11:39:06 am »
From what I understand, it is some sort of metaphor for a sort of struggle going on within the mind.
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

wowfood

  • Tender Young Virgin
  • *
  • Posts: 11
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 44: Discussion
« Reply #20 on: September 07, 2015, 03:57:56 pm »
I actually wonder somewhat if maytag has some degree of high functioning autism.  She certainly displayed some (exaggerated) traits in the earlier comics of her childhood. 

As articles state, many people with HFA want to interact with others, but just don't know how as it doesn't come to them naturally.  She has said herself that she learnt how to interact with others, studied how they react and built her personalities around those facts to appeal to as many areas as possible.  And like all things those acts formed habits which formed a more natural personality for her. 

Just a theory mind you. 

What I'm wondering right now is (spoiler) what the hell her body type could have to do with dark cell. 

For a while I thought that her sudden epiphany about phase 1 was to do with meditation, she had all this emotional baggage in her mind that rhodes and marcie kept poking with a stick, bringing it to the foreground.  Once that emotional baggage was out the way dark cell wouldn't have anything to feed on to increase her fear.  Which is also why I thought she'd sat down when she walked in there, so she could meditate on her thoughts while feeling that fear, and monitor whether the fear subsided as she resolved those issues.

But seriously, that body type thing, what on earth could that have to do with it?  Does dark cell affect short people more than tall people? 

bulmabriefs144

  • Cage Dancer
  • **
  • Posts: 395
  • Wielder of the Sword of Sorrow
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 44: Discussion
« Reply #21 on: September 07, 2015, 05:39:32 pm »
Schizoid.

The section about "the purpose of a mask is that it can be thrown away" makes it super-clear.

Autism and schizoid have similar inability to relate to others. I should know, I was once (mis)diagnosed as autistic.

Autism, even high functioning autism, is marked by a lack of social skill. It is also marked by a number of social oddities that May simply does not have. May is actually very socially smooth. Her problem is that she doesn't seem to care on the surface about people, and while she's social, has an issue with close relationships (almost like she pulls away if stuff gets too personal). SHe also lacks many of the obsessive compulsive "nonfunctional routines" that autism manifests.

Schizoid often uses "masks" and "walls" as metaphors for the condition. Think about it, the only time she really gets off sexually is wearing her headgear. 



Short form: schizoids make very good poker players (constant poker face). Autistics make very bad ones (bad at reading body language).

Of course, There Are No Shrinks in Flipside universe, so she's unlikely to be diagnosed as such. Also, keep in mind, this is a spectrum. She may be in-between somewhere. But she's more deadpan and aloof than eccentric.

I was wondering about the body type too. I have no clue what this is about. Looks like we'll get an explanation soon.

...Ohhhh, wait. I know what they mean about body type (I think). There was some ski-jumping manga I was reading (Nononono) where is was talking about how many women had a disadvantage ski-jumping because men can use their weight and body muscle to shrug off some of the force during a heavy wind. I think in addition to intense fear, it has a tendency to exert some sort of wind pressure type deal on the person passing, so it's difficult to "break through." 
« Last Edit: September 08, 2015, 10:21:19 am by bulmabriefs144 »
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

wowfood

  • Tender Young Virgin
  • *
  • Posts: 11
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 44: Discussion
« Reply #22 on: September 08, 2015, 10:37:49 am »
Ah, so maybe it's actually a two pronged attack.  The primary one that everyone notices is the fear, which is also what they kept trying to keep her focused on by emphasising the masks, and the emotional coldness.  But at the same time as well as the crippling fear (which may very well be voided through meditation) there's also a physical pressure too.

I imagine it might actually be endurance sapping or something.  The first time may went in she was paralyzed by the fear, then she made it in 6 steps, and then it kept going down each time. 

All she was doing during that time was lying in bed / sitting down, and then going in to that room once, then going back to her room to rest. 

By spending that time walking around aimlessly she was actually building up her endurance slightly, so when she went back to the room she bypassed the fear and had enough endurance to make it past without collapsing. 

So rather than the fear making her collapse, it was actually her stamina being drained away, and the fear was just a mask covering it.

I actually wonder, they said she passed the first two phases of dark cell.  I'm wondering if, rather than being a case of as you go further in, you encounter a new barrier, its that as you go in, one drops and the others intensify.

Phase one would be the endurance sapping, phase two would be fear.  The reason they were distracting her with the masks etc was to make her look inwards and come to an understanding of her fears, so they were distracting her from phase one to focus on phase two.

She made it past phase 1, and by that point she'd already come to terms with her fears so was no longer effected by phase 2 either.  Which only leaves phase 3. 

« Last Edit: September 08, 2015, 10:42:32 am by wowfood »

bulmabriefs144

  • Cage Dancer
  • **
  • Posts: 395
  • Wielder of the Sword of Sorrow
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 44: Discussion
« Reply #23 on: September 09, 2015, 12:37:51 pm »
Sorta like a car that you're afraid to drive because it shakes and drags, but after you get past the actual fear, you see that the car just shakes because the wheels need work or something.

It's kinda just sort of a gravity issue. Force pushing either down  or towards the person, so they can't seem to get past. They think it's just fear, but actually it's more to do with pressure. Maytag is able to shrug it off because she normally doesn't feel fear, and noticed the pressure. From the storyline of the other girl, and how May did the second one on the first try, it seems like the 2nd zone is cake.
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

wowfood

  • Tender Young Virgin
  • *
  • Posts: 11
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 44: Discussion
« Reply #24 on: September 09, 2015, 03:21:54 pm »
Well from the latest chapter the fear can't be ignored at all, although the stamina sapping was sort of accurate.  Thing is looking back at it I should have clicked sooner.

Fear is a fight of flight response, a deer in the headlights isn't afraid, it's shocked, two similar but different emotions.  The fact that may couldn't respond with either fight or flight, and just collapsed should have been the indicator that something else was wrong.

I suppose it's a bit like when you get emotionally exerted, you lose a fair amount of your strength.

The entire test though seems to be about deception, and tricks.  The recruitment test was seeing if she could resist magic, she was able to resist the bath in danzigs castle, and she was able to resist the fear generated by bloody mary.

She was able to get past the bath with sheer force of will, likewise with bloody mary she got past her blood puke with willpower and the acceptance technique, and if it weren't for her willpower she wouldn't have gotten past the fear enough to notice the endurance sapping. 

But as for phase 2, there's been no indication of what it could possibly be.  If phase 1 was seeing past the magical fear, and noticing the endurance sapping, I wonder if phase 2 is some other deception. 

bulmabriefs144

  • Cage Dancer
  • **
  • Posts: 395
  • Wielder of the Sword of Sorrow
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 44: Discussion
« Reply #25 on: September 10, 2015, 06:01:14 pm »
I'm not sure they are all deceptions. I mean, probably they are. But I think the bigger part of these is that they are barriers to progress.

What other barriers are there besides fear?

Well, pain. Pain can pretty much keep people from advancing. I'm thinking the third is pain, based on the title picture.

Apathy. That's what I'm thinking. While the fear one had a sort of pressure to go with it, this barrier would be sort of the exact opposite of this. It is so mellow that it lulls the person into staying there and not moving ahead.  If someone numbs themselves to the pressure of the first, the temptation is to rest there for awhile.

Past the third, what do you think? Theories?
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

monimoni

  • Collared Pet
  • *
  • Posts: 86
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 44: Discussion
« Reply #26 on: September 11, 2015, 01:27:35 pm »
You were spot-on about May. And yup most likely the third phase is pain, however i wonder if it's gonna be just the sensation of pain, and not actual harm. I'm also wondering how May is able to come back after advancing past first and second phase.. I get that the lady is taking her out, but would the person inside be able to communicate somehow that they're ok?
This chapter is very intriguing, looking forward to finding out what's with this black hole in this guy's house. Let's see what he proposes next..

Keneto

  • Tender Young Virgin
  • *
  • Posts: 12
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 44: Discussion
« Reply #27 on: September 13, 2015, 10:18:38 am »
Could you all stop calling my bride a sociopath?

Stargoat

  • Hot Streaker
  • **
  • Posts: 444
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 44: Discussion
« Reply #28 on: September 13, 2015, 07:19:00 pm »
Could you all stop calling my bride a sociopath?

Sure thing. We'll knock it off.

wowfood

  • Tender Young Virgin
  • *
  • Posts: 11
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 44: Discussion
« Reply #29 on: September 14, 2015, 10:49:06 am »
I'm wondering now if each phase is a different set of stats

Phase 1 was endurance and willpower.
Phase 2 might be intelligence and dexterity considering how easily may managed to get through.

Those are what I'd consider Mays primary stats, (if this were D&D) and I imagine that each phase of the cell may challenge two different aspects of a persons physical and mental traits. 

So perhaps some kind of illusions (which we know may is very apt at overcoming) and some kind of dexterity involvement, perhaps in this case the rolls are reversed, the physical challenge is the obvious one, and the mental challenge is the subtle aspect.  As an example an axe swinging down towards you, a normal person would jump to the side to dodge, whilst May might notice in the split second that there's no sound from it, or the reflections aren't right and deduce it's an illusion.  The person who deduces the illusion can pass on, whilst the one who dodges is forced out of phase 2.

Of course there would have to be real obstacles also which would also explain why each phase gets progressively more dangerous.

If this is true (and it probably isn't, I'm guessing here) I'd say phase 3 is strength and charisma, although how the hell you test charisma I don't know, and I doubt very much May will be able to pass a strength test, but who knows.