Author Topic: Chapter 31: Discussion  (Read 28025 times)

Azure Priest

  • Cage Dancer
  • **
  • Posts: 359
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 31: Discussion
« Reply #30 on: January 02, 2012, 07:46:49 am »
Well, Mr. Cigar does have a point. Many people look to entertainment to escape their lives, even for a little while.

Kiran

  • Cage Dancer
  • **
  • Posts: 322
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 31: Discussion
« Reply #31 on: January 06, 2012, 02:23:31 am »
I gotta agree with Regina here, even for me as a reader who followed this comic for years, this May true nature revelation made her a stranger for me, more than I would want or expect.

Azure Priest

  • Cage Dancer
  • **
  • Posts: 359
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 31: Discussion
« Reply #32 on: January 06, 2012, 06:21:46 am »
Definitely had a profound impact, perhaps not the one May would have liked, however.

SAGG

  • Red Light Worker
  • **
  • Posts: 217
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 31: Discussion
« Reply #33 on: January 16, 2012, 07:58:18 pm »
I'm interested in how Maytag's mentor's will respond to her little revelation. After all, they unwittingly started this...  ???

Azure Priest

  • Cage Dancer
  • **
  • Posts: 359
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 31: Discussion
« Reply #34 on: January 20, 2012, 06:27:33 am »
Oh, boy. Crest is in for a major adjustment here. Yeah, he's angry. Understandably so. This is going to be a lot of work. May, you're going to have to let him cool off for a while.

Kiran

  • Cage Dancer
  • **
  • Posts: 322
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 31: Discussion
« Reply #35 on: January 20, 2012, 10:42:59 am »
I'm more affected by the situation why Suspiria is so tired now where she needs sleep...

Some delayed effect of her being tampered by that Thin Man assistant?

And knowing Crest he will get used to this new-old May quickly, we saw that May is good at befriending people knowing how she should act and what points press around different ones to maximise the effect.

If current May personality is a constant thing where she acts like she acts as a result of mixing all personalities into one depending on situation naturally, not doing it on purpose herself, then I think other will understand.

Azure Priest

  • Cage Dancer
  • **
  • Posts: 359
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 31: Discussion
« Reply #36 on: January 23, 2012, 07:32:34 am »
"I want to talk to the May that comes out when you get serious." Good one, Crest.

Suspira could be tired for many reasons. It could be that Melter did something to her, it could be all the bottled up grief about her dead boyfriend, or it could be that she's doing too much too quickly to keep from feeling the pain. Or any combination of the above.

Crest is doing real well riding this emotional roller coaster.

Ryuu

  • Experimental
  • ***
  • Posts: 775
  • I like robot ninja chocolate monkeys!
    • MSN Messenger - r_y_u_u@hotmail.co.uk
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Chapter 31: Discussion
« Reply #37 on: January 23, 2012, 11:29:12 am »
The way crest has dealt with suspira has made me warm to his character a lot, i mean, i never disliked him, but i never really connected with him as a major character till now. Especially because of his absense in chapter 0. Oh well, no matter how he grows may and bern will always be the main characters to me.

And in my head i viewed may's speech and her backstory as seperate, simply told to allow, us, the reader, to learn about maytag as her friends did, while not actually being true to her speech as her speech would be filled with a lot more annecdotes and jokes, while the story was cleaned up for reader's sake.

Also, kudos brion, it's hard to write a character like maytags and have it feel realistic, or, at the other end of the spectrum, have the reader feel like her back-story dosen't fit with her character. You have managed to avoid oth those problems, so well done! Loving it

Flipside desktops, knock yourself out.
now with more pictures!

Tyris

  • Slave Groupie
  • *
  • Posts: 44
  • U Hrair
    • Yahoo Instant Messenger - tyris_stark
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Chapter 31: Discussion
« Reply #38 on: January 23, 2012, 01:56:20 pm »
'S a funny thing... we do this thing Maytag is currently defending (ie wear an identity-mask in front of most people IRL, though for protection rather than likeability) and can't agree with her on the "it's not lying" front. It is lying, but she's got so good at the lie that she's fooled herself.

'Course, we also don't use the word "personality" quite the same way she does, so it's all a bit wibbly really.
You can't look dignified when you're having fun.

Ryuu

  • Experimental
  • ***
  • Posts: 775
  • I like robot ninja chocolate monkeys!
    • MSN Messenger - r_y_u_u@hotmail.co.uk
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Chapter 31: Discussion
« Reply #39 on: January 23, 2012, 02:30:44 pm »
No, maytag has been acting that way so long that it's second nature to her, she would have to actually TRY to act diferently, that to me is your personality, the way you act when not delibrately trying to act in a specific way. Yes, at first she was lying about who she was, but eventually she pretended for so long that she became the person (read people) she was pretending to be. Meaning she is no longer lying.

Flipside desktops, knock yourself out.
now with more pictures!

Kiran

  • Cage Dancer
  • **
  • Posts: 322
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 31: Discussion
« Reply #40 on: January 23, 2012, 03:32:58 pm »
Love the glaring contest, and May with her serious emotionless face looks kinda scary.

So the change is portrayed with different iris style(for reader's conveniance)?

Looking at previous page we didn't get to see May looking like that during contest, so May can switch off at will her other personalities traits returning to her original emotionless one?

It is handy.

ducky_worshiper

  • Red Light Worker
  • **
  • Posts: 240
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 31: Discussion
« Reply #41 on: January 24, 2012, 04:22:57 pm »
I actually think her "ability" to be like *close eyes real hard, ok, new personality!* is pretty damning.  If it was really "natural" and not being faked then I would be surprised if she could switch that easily without real provocation.

Azure Priest

  • Cage Dancer
  • **
  • Posts: 359
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 31: Discussion
« Reply #42 on: January 25, 2012, 05:12:04 am »
Maytag, sweetie, I hate to tell you this, I mean I REALLY don't want to, but wearing personalities like masks IS lying. It's arguably the worst form of lie there is. You may not be INTENDING to deceive people, but when you wear different personalities for different occasions and switch them around like that, you ARE being very deceptive.

It's a major impediment to true intimacy. People can't be intimate with one another if they can't figure out what the other person is really like.

Kiran

  • Cage Dancer
  • **
  • Posts: 322
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 31: Discussion
« Reply #43 on: January 26, 2012, 12:51:03 am »
It looks kinda funny how May seems to not being able to comprehend what Crest problem here is with her, after all she tells him now the truth and acts like he wanted, and he is still unhappy.

We see Bern on the central spot on the cover, so I wonder if we wil shift to her finding father adventure soon, or maybe will get her talk with May about this.
Or maybe Bern explaining May condition to Polly later how she sees it from her side.

Ryuu

  • Experimental
  • ***
  • Posts: 775
  • I like robot ninja chocolate monkeys!
    • MSN Messenger - r_y_u_u@hotmail.co.uk
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Chapter 31: Discussion
« Reply #44 on: January 26, 2012, 07:08:37 pm »
I still agree with may more than crest, maybe because i see a lot of parelels with myself.

Flipside desktops, knock yourself out.
now with more pictures!

Smiles

  • Nymphomaniac!!
  • *****
  • Posts: 12641
  • Easter is gonna be great!Heard he will Rise Again!
    • View Profile
    • AnimeCentral
    • Email
Re: Chapter 31: Discussion
« Reply #45 on: January 26, 2012, 09:18:54 pm »
I kinda like how Crest is getting so emotional over May's act. but i really want to see Suspira's reaction. lolz.
Cant wait to see what happens next.
Just loving it! :-*
let's sit and chat a while and see if I don't make you smile .;)

nilinet

  • Slave Groupie
  • *
  • Posts: 39
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 31: Discussion
« Reply #46 on: January 27, 2012, 04:30:02 am »
Haha. I thought cheating was the worst kind of lying.

I can relate to May. So I sympathize. Something about who we are deep down inside drives us to be the way they are. If there is a hidden self, then it is meant to be protected, and shared only with those who deserve full trust. It's an honor to really know someone, and I think that's why some people are upset with May. But it's up to her to do what's best for herself. She may try changing, but I do believe that most of us have some things about ourselves that just won't change, or are very difficult to change. And I feel those things will help us see the truth of who she really is.

Azure Priest

  • Cage Dancer
  • **
  • Posts: 359
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 31: Discussion
« Reply #47 on: January 27, 2012, 06:15:05 am »
Haha. I thought cheating was the worst kind of lying.

I can relate to May. So I sympathize. Something about who we are deep down inside drives us to be the way they are. If there is a hidden self, then it is meant to be protected, and shared only with those who deserve full trust. It's an honor to really know someone, and I think that's why some people are upset with May. But it's up to her to do what's best for herself. She may try changing, but I do believe that most of us have some things about ourselves that just won't change, or are very difficult to change. And I feel those things will help us see the truth of who she really is.

Cheating ALSO involves putting on other personalities as masks. There's the "faithful spouse" mask, the "single guy" mask, the "compassionate lover" mask, and so on.

I really can't blame Crest here. It's rapidly becoming a case of "the more I know, the less I like." It's not easy finding out the person you know and love was all just "an act" to get people to like her. Granted, it's one thing to realize the persona ON STAGE is an act, it's quite another to find out the personality you've met in more intimate settings is.

Crest is absolutely correct. You can't tell if your moral compass is compatible with someone else, if you can't tell what kind of compass the other person has, or even if she has a compass at all.

Aster Azul

  • Fresh Meat
  • Posts: 3
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 31: Discussion
« Reply #48 on: January 27, 2012, 07:20:00 am »
I have to say that I really GET this. As someone who started out as basically an unsocialized, clueless robot, choosing a personality I liked and then becoming that person was how I first started to come out of my private world. At first it was an act I put on, but gradually it did become the real me. If I hadn't strove to become a different person, I'd still be a cave-dwelling sociopath and not ROSSTIN MURPHY, GENTLEMAN ADVENTURER! But, you know, if I need to I can put on an effort of will and become that robot again. (Which can be really useful sometimes.)

I'd have to say a) Maytag probably underestimates how much of this "mask" thing has become who she really is.
b) I'm surprised that she would think it was a good idea to reveal this in the way she did. Making a careful study of human nature was one of the things that made her decide to put on this act. She should have predicted that people would be repulsed and just never mentioned this fact. Or at least told the story in a different way.

Anyway, I'm 100% in defense of Maytag. She was depressed and felt unlikeable. She found something she wanted to be. And she became it, and people loved her. Any bullshit you have to say about "be yourself" or "putting on an act is a lie"... you probably just don't know what it's like to feel alienated in that am-I-a-human-being way.

Yeti

  • Tender Young Virgin
  • *
  • Posts: 23
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 31: Discussion
« Reply #49 on: January 27, 2012, 07:50:07 am »
It's interesting that the discussion moved specifically onto talking about different personalities as masks. Intentionally or not Goffman's theories have been stumbled into. Azure Priest particularly with their talk of the different masks a cheater will wear. However I think what has been overlooked is that we all wear different masks to some extent. For instance you might have an "Internet mask", or a "Work mask", "Family mask", "Romantic mask". The idea is that underneath all these masks there's a real, innate, personality. A personality which can only come out at certain times and will be identified as real. Yet rather than being innate, perhaps it's actually yet another mask - a mask we've crafted for ourselves. Our "Real self mask".

The point is, having different personalities for different things isn't an uncomfortable concept. We do change our personalities so that we can try and get the best reactions out of people (even if that best reaction is no reaction at all). Further those personalities do become "us" over time, even if we don't view them as the "real us". The upset with May seems to be her ability to do this consciously and seamlessly, and her reluctance to ever return to putting on her "Real self mask". The problem for her I feel is that she hasn't really crafted this mask. It has bits and bobs on it, but she can't really describe it as being 'her' as there's no personality connected with it. I wonder if part of the next few chapters will be May constructing this mask for herself.

nilinet

  • Slave Groupie
  • *
  • Posts: 39
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 31: Discussion
« Reply #50 on: January 27, 2012, 08:51:43 am »
I have to say that I really GET this. As someone who started out as basically an unsocialized, clueless robot, choosing a personality I liked and then becoming that person was how I first started to come out of my private world. At first it was an act I put on, but gradually it did become the real me. If I hadn't strove to become a different person, I'd still be a cave-dwelling sociopath and not ROSSTIN MURPHY, GENTLEMAN ADVENTURER! But, you know, if I need to I can put on an effort of will and become that robot again. (Which can be really useful sometimes.)

I'd have to say a) Maytag probably underestimates how much of this "mask" thing has become who she really is.
b) I'm surprised that she would think it was a good idea to reveal this in the way she did. Making a careful study of human nature was one of the things that made her decide to put on this act. She should have predicted that people would be repulsed and just never mentioned this fact. Or at least told the story in a different way.

Anyway, I'm 100% in defense of Maytag. She was depressed and felt unlikeable. She found something she wanted to be. And she became it, and people loved her. Any bullshit you have to say about "be yourself" or "putting on an act is a lie"... you probably just don't know what it's like to feel alienated in that am-I-a-human-being way.

THIS


Cheshyr1

  • Fresh Meat
  • Posts: 3
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 31: Discussion
« Reply #51 on: January 27, 2012, 08:57:40 am »
I am reminded of an American Indian story I heard as a child. If I could remember the tribe it came from, I'd put that in, but my memory is jack for how long its been.

A lowly thief fell in love with the tribe's princess, but he was too ugly and his heart too greedy for her to ever love him. He crafted a mask of a handsome man who was virtuous. He wore the mask in meeting her and her father. He did great deeds, anything for the princess to love him. Finally, she fell in love with him. It was all he ever wanted. They were to marry and he stayed true to being the man she fell in love with. She wanted to see him for who he was and demanded he remove his mask or she would not marry him. He said he did not want to take it off, he was ugly inside and out and she would not love an ugly man. She demanded again. He took off the mask. She accused him of lying which he couldn't understand why. She said he was not ugly in and out. He looked the same without the mask as he did with it on. He had worn the mask so long and acted as a good man for so long that he had become the mask he wore. The lowly thief was no more.

Enkida

  • Collared Pet
  • *
  • Posts: 72
    • View Profile
    • Baldur's Gate Portraits
Re: Chapter 31: Discussion
« Reply #52 on: January 27, 2012, 03:41:31 pm »
Just a short pop in after a while.  I agree with Crest, though I think he is being a little cruel in that last panel.  May and Crest are very similar in that they are both excellent readers of people.  Crest however seems to get into more trouble but also has more "likability" to me as a reader because his reactions to people - and situations - are genuine, not studied to produce the best results as May does.  At least I like to think this of him - this is why he seemed a useless putz at the beginning of the story and now a likable kid at this point.  Great character development, and nice to see May's own people reading skills being turned on herself.

I think Suspira is sleeping a lot because she is still depressed over Kin.  Depression can make you do that.  I am hoping she doesn't decide to off heeself at some point, actually, because those are the signs I read in her behaviour.

 I still am not really a big fan of Maytag anymore due to what I see as the slightly over idealized heroine character portrayal. She will cry, she will be hurt by her friends and possibly her lover, they will all be mad at her, she will be kidnapped and put in extreme danger during this time of estrangement, everyone will have the big revelation about how much they like her when she's gone, and then she will come back (or perhaps be brought back by a collective rescue attempt) and there will be tears of joy and begging for forgiveness...  that is my prediction.  Oh, except for Moss, who will be a cool kat.  His girlfriend will go apeshit, though.

If this does not happen, I will be very happy.  :-)
2 kids = no more comics, but you can still find me doing BG portraits now and then

Tyris

  • Slave Groupie
  • *
  • Posts: 44
  • U Hrair
    • Yahoo Instant Messenger - tyris_stark
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Chapter 31: Discussion
« Reply #53 on: January 28, 2012, 02:23:35 pm »
Anyway, I'm 100% in defense of Maytag. She was depressed and felt unlikeable. She found something she wanted to be. And she became it, and people loved her. Any bullshit you have to say about "be yourself" or "putting on an act is a lie"... you probably just don't know what it's like to feel alienated in that am-I-a-human-being way.

"Be yourself" is certainly bullshit, but "putting on an act is a lie" is, by definition, true. We'd be far, far more likely to get murdered - legally killed, even - as ourselves than as the lie. But that doesn't make it any less a lie. It might not even make the lie right. Kinda undecided on that one, heh. It doesn't mean we recognise the man in the mirror, or remember any but the barest details of what his life was like. It doesn't stop me from feeling guilty every time we look at his mother, and wondering how we could ever possibly break the truth to her. And none of us can figure out what a human being is supposed to feel like. Don't s'pose you have any clues?
You can't look dignified when you're having fun.

Ryuu

  • Experimental
  • ***
  • Posts: 775
  • I like robot ninja chocolate monkeys!
    • MSN Messenger - r_y_u_u@hotmail.co.uk
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Chapter 31: Discussion
« Reply #54 on: January 28, 2012, 08:50:47 pm »
Todays page just made me realise exactly what bugs me about crest, he's so wrapped up in what he thinks, and how he feels, that he dosen't consider others, and as a result makes my favorite character cry!

Flipside desktops, knock yourself out.
now with more pictures!

Darque

  • Tender Young Virgin
  • *
  • Posts: 21
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Chapter 31: Discussion
« Reply #55 on: January 31, 2012, 12:48:47 am »
Not sure she can be believed, even with the waterworks.
She could well mean 'I promise I'll never let you in on any more of my deceptions'  ;)

The early bird is flying solo and will probably be killed by the earlier cat.

Confidence is that warm, fuzzy feeling you get before you comprehend the situation.

Yeti

  • Tender Young Virgin
  • *
  • Posts: 23
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 31: Discussion
« Reply #56 on: January 31, 2012, 01:41:06 am »
Whether or not tears were a part of Maytag's 'true' personality in her youth, I would suggest she is very much capable of genuine tears now. She alludes to it during internal monologue - where one would assume there's no reason to perform. 

http://flipside.keenspot.com/comic.php?i=594

(There's also an interesting line on the prior page: "Well... I guess I can't blame Bern for having emotions... It's not her fault she has em!" [sic])

So at the moment I'm inclined to believe May when she says her tears are real. Other than that I'm a little confused by how to interpret the current page. She stops crying, but then seems to start yelling an apology in what looks like anger?

Ryuu

  • Experimental
  • ***
  • Posts: 775
  • I like robot ninja chocolate monkeys!
    • MSN Messenger - r_y_u_u@hotmail.co.uk
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Chapter 31: Discussion
« Reply #57 on: January 31, 2012, 09:26:44 am »
Just because someone dosen't feel emotion most of the time, dosen't mean they are incapable of it. While may may not be very emotional, i'm sure that she can still feel pain when someone she cares about speaks to her harshly, and the way crest is treating her right now is far from kind, and to have your friend treat you like that is going to hurt someone, especially someone who used to struggle to make friends and therefore would feel a lot closer to those she does have.

Flipside desktops, knock yourself out.
now with more pictures!

Azure Priest

  • Cage Dancer
  • **
  • Posts: 359
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 31: Discussion
« Reply #58 on: February 01, 2012, 05:39:33 am »
It's now Maytag's turn to be patient. She just dropped a big freaking bombshell on everybody and expected them to be A-OK with it. SURPRISE! Doesn't work that way.

Changing your personality just so "everyone" likes you doesn't work. Sorry, it just doesn't. As we've just seen, even Maytag doesn't know who she is anymore.

Is Crest being deliberately cruel? I would think not. He's always been clumsy socially. In fact, that's one of the first reasons why he started hanging out with Maytag in the first place. So he could improve his social skills.

Fact is, he feels betrayed. We know he does NOT handle that well. Waterworks or no, Crest is going to need time to adjust to this "new" Maytag he just learned about.

Jongarakun

  • Collared Pet
  • *
  • Posts: 80
  • Woah, momma.
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 31: Discussion
« Reply #59 on: February 01, 2012, 09:30:22 pm »
Just because someone dosen't feel emotion most of the time, dosen't mean they are incapable of it. While may may not be very emotional, i'm sure that she can still feel pain when someone she cares about speaks to her harshly, and the way crest is treating her right now is far from kind, and to have your friend treat you like that is going to hurt someone, especially someone who used to struggle to make friends and therefore would feel a lot closer to those she does have.

Having your friend lie to you about themselves is also very painful.