Author Topic: Chapter 43: Discussion  (Read 38374 times)

bulmabriefs144

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #330 on: June 30, 2015, 04:11:50 pm »
I've known a girl like this (her name was Paula, so it even sounded similar). Polly likely will try to hurt her if she messes with her decision. She can offer to share, but not to take it instead. It just doesn't work that way.

Anyway, we can quibble all we want about how Bern didn't really earn stuff, and we have to earn everything in life. But life doesn't necessarily work that way. Bern's dad sold everything he had to give her a fighting chance. Polly put herself into sex slavery so that Bern could have a better life.

Yes, I know it's easy to see this as an obligation to pay off. But the fact of the matter is, these were not favors, they were love offerings. Trying to undo their sacrifices is like saying "I don't appreciate your gift." Bern can ask if she can share this with Polly. But likely if Polly wanted that, she would have allowed it earlier. You have two people who are noble and stubborn. Bern can't win here, because sex slavery is exactly what Polly doesn't want for Bern.

No, Bern should not offer to take her place. She should instead try to fight for Polly's freedom from the deal.  Challenge someone, and be like, "if I lose I share her price, if I win, I buy her freedom from this."
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

sunphoenix

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #331 on: July 03, 2015, 12:51:03 pm »
... ... ok.  So Biron is actually going to..."go there..."

I know we all joked about steamy sex-scenes of Polly 'paying Bern's way', before... but now, I think I'm gonna be sick.  Its one thing to tongue-in-cheak fantasize about erotic-prison orgies... but now that we're finally here the reality of it all is, heart-breaking!  This is not fun or erotic... its painful.. I think I'm going to be sick.  Polly is a brave, devoted, beautiful woman who is so devoted to someone who she believes is of a purer spirit than her that she is willing to do this horrid thing on her behalf.

This is not going to be a steamy "reluctant" love-scene.. but what it truly is.. the Rape of spirit of this ...lovely woman.. a demeaning of her Heroines heart!  I'm not enticed or aroused by this... I'm truly sickened and saddened...

...and the fact that THIS didn't occur to me sooner ... kinda makes me feel a bit ashamed I was joking about it earlier.

This is truly ugly.  I'm not sure I can watch... and not feel dirty as well...

I think I want to cry...
« Last Edit: July 03, 2015, 12:53:45 pm by sunphoenix »
"...no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free.  No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything - you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is Kill him." - Robert A. Heinlein


SAGG

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #332 on: July 04, 2015, 12:34:38 pm »
Soooo, Polly's going to have to go through 19 days of this, and Bern will have to fight 19 days of battles to get through? What's the way this goes again?  ???

monimoni

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #333 on: July 04, 2015, 03:34:45 pm »
No, all this sacrifice was just to let Bern do this rank-up match.
I am really surprised that Bern is able to sleep through all this. She could've tried a little harder than "Are you sure...?" to convince her. But I guess Bern doesn't really want to have sex with random dudes for 19 days; she would've probably done it for one time (or whatever the initial price was; why Polly set the price so high is beyond me). Can't blame her, but I was expecting her to try some kind of maneuver to fix this.
I do hope that the comic will fast-forward to some point after the deed has been done.

Kiran

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #334 on: July 05, 2015, 01:46:39 am »
The thing here which hurts the most is that Polly is completely innocent in all of this and she is taking the whole blame from Bern only cause she loves her so much(if we recall she took half of Bern's marks and now the ugly punishment for the rank-up).
At least seeing her reaction to Bern's determined face last page she can go to her happy place completely cutting out from her body while doing the deed, at least that I hope prostitutes do when doing their things to stay sane.

It is horrible fate, but since author decided to show us this in detail what is Polly fate here, and it's looking like that, and we already know Polly did this once time before, then it must be the thing Brion said before that violence and sex fanservice regarding especially females characters, since no one is naive enough to expect for example Crest being put in such trial at all soon(makes me curious if there will be male gladiator sex slaves here too), sell and it's a lure to the more extreme readers, and seeing past posts there are people here who wanted to see Bern raped to get "character development" and see in details what happened with Polly anyway so it's not too shocking that author wants to cater to them too...

Or at least I hope this is the case, we see this cause Bern will enter the scene due to following Polly here, and Bern will witness what Polly really does for her safety each night.
And that can basically go in few ways, most even having worse fate as my mind tells me:
- Bern tries to stop it and it turns ugly, either she is punished or raped, and it also sets of Polly which might even end with Polly execution, or even more punishment added,
- Bern steps in and starts undressing too and make out with Polly and the ugly guys to help here, and Polly will go with it charmed by Bern to lose her resolve,
- Bern showing up somehow stops it and we get someone else helping them seeing how their love each other and all that which is most unlikely seeing how dark these Bern chapters became.
For me from story perspective Polly sex slaving pages are needless fanservice of worst kind if they would not be connected with Bern seeing that.

sunphoenix

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #335 on: July 06, 2015, 08:01:13 am »
Thank you Biron... that was in good taste.
"...no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free.  No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything - you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is Kill him." - Robert A. Heinlein


ipatrol

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #336 on: July 06, 2015, 06:29:36 pm »
Thank you Biron... that was in good taste.
Agreed. Some things are best left unsaid. To do so otherwise would be excessive. We already have enough of a rape culture as it is; the last thing it needs is more tinder for the fire.

bulmabriefs144

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #337 on: July 06, 2015, 07:27:52 pm »
No, all this sacrifice was just to let Bern do this rank-up match.
I am really surprised that Bern is able to sleep through all this. She could've tried a little harder than "Are you sure...?" to convince her. But I guess Bern doesn't really want to have sex with random dudes for 19 days; she would've probably done it for one time (or whatever the initial price was; why Polly set the price so high is beyond me). Can't blame her, but I was expecting her to try some kind of maneuver to fix this.
I do hope that the comic will fast-forward to some point after the deed has been done.

She set it that way so Bern would just drop the issue. She wanted Bern to get her stuff done without being all screwed up. Geez guys, hasn't anyone done something for you, without letting you pay them pack? She sees herself as already tainted and wants to keep Bern from getting screwed up similarly.

Her motive right here.
And here.

You see Polly as an innocent, but she's done worse, as far as she's concerned (remember, perspective is a good portion of this, and many rape victims feel like they deserve it). Bern very much would want her to be free from this, but she will need to do it some other way.

Also, this skip may very well be conservation of detail. Since Bern's not awake to stop it, we don't see it.


« Last Edit: July 06, 2015, 07:45:05 pm by bulmabriefs144 »
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #338 on: July 08, 2015, 05:55:49 am »
Uh-oh. I don't like this. Something tells me the warden's going to give them info they WON'T like...

sunphoenix

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #339 on: July 08, 2015, 06:56:24 am »
Uh-oh. I don't like this. Something tells me the warden's going to give them info they WON'T like...

OR... the Warden is there to offer them another...'dubious' opportunity to raise a rank/pay down marks...etc...

One, I'd think on the surface will 'seem' an opportunity... but really is not...AND one they are not really being given any actually choice to refuse...

Corrupt people are Very good at finding underhanded ways to cheat and apply 'leverage' on persons within their power.

Then again.. she may be there to first congratulate them on their success... and then Second warn them that they have pissed off the 'Arena Owners' with their stubborn unwillingness to loose or be defeated... in spirit or moral stance... and that the "kid-Gloves" are coming off!
« Last Edit: July 08, 2015, 06:59:12 am by sunphoenix »
"...no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free.  No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything - you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is Kill him." - Robert A. Heinlein


Kiran

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #340 on: July 08, 2015, 07:25:05 am »
Actually looking at today's page and the previous two ones(kinda thanks for the skip on the Polly case but seeing how the story goes I doubt we are from the hook either), it more looks that the fat guy will want to pay a hell lot of marks of Bern and Polly debt if his new favourite duo will pleasure him for some time, maybe he even had Polly in these two days time but he now will want to do everything to get Bern too in a package...

Or I think too much on the negative scale of things and the fat wealthy guy is a good one and due to sportmanship rules he will help them out of true altruism.

bulmabriefs144

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #341 on: July 08, 2015, 01:53:38 pm »
I think they're gonna tell Bern and Polly that it's important they throw the match. Something about odds looking too good. Which of course is something Bern isn't okay with. If she refuses, she'll probably hit them with some obnoxiously hard match.

Kinda sucks. Her blade is indomitable, she has the skill, and she has a great teammate, but corrupt betting systems are what they are. Hopefully, this thing will pass and Bern will actually be able to pay down their stuff.

In all likelihood, Bern will be too much of a boy scout (sorry, girl scout doesn't really match because mainly all they do now is sell cookies) to outright agree to throw the match (plus seeing as how she almost died  last time, yeaaaa... no). But she might meet her halfway, and agree to make the battle look much harder than it actually is, while people are still betting. Some goodwill goes a long way, though she still wants to win.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2015, 04:39:09 am by bulmabriefs144 »
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

sunphoenix

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #342 on: July 10, 2015, 06:04:32 am »
Yep, I called it, another dubious 'opportunity'... one I'm sure is tailored so that Polly cannot interfere and is enticing enough for 'sweet, somewhat gullible' Bernadette, that she can't refuse... it is ALSO CLEAR TRAP! 

These vindictive cruel bastards want HER badly!  It so perverse how wicked-hearted miscreants want to corrupt  innocent and kind-hearted people.  Guess it just makes them feel more justified with their evil ways.
"...no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free.  No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything - you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is Kill him." - Robert A. Heinlein


bulmabriefs144

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #343 on: July 10, 2015, 08:48:20 am »
I seriously don't think anyone cares about Bern's sexual purity, guys.   ;D

I know how gambling works in boxing and horse-racing, from watching movies, and it tends to run like the following.

http://flipside.keenspot.com/comic.php?i=2593

High bidder sees a favorite, and the house will either: (a) set things up so the favorite is provoked (either by "treats or threats") to throw the match, giving them the money of what would have been a clear winner, (b) set it up to look like a long shot, arrange a deal with the highest bidder, and make him win like crazy while everyone else is fooled, or (c) fail to do either of these, and eventually they run into a "no contest" situation where the person is too good, and they have to give handicaps to them. This was done in a movie about horse-racing and eventually they had to hobble the horse. It still won, but they had to retire it eventually.

Given what we know of Bern and Polly, I can imagine B but not A.

Also, love this flat "Get out."   
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #344 on: July 11, 2015, 12:16:59 am »
"I want you to fight me. If you win, you'll have your freedom. If you lose (fill in the blank)"... ;D

jamoecw

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #345 on: July 12, 2015, 09:32:16 am »
everybody is talking sex and corruption.  maybe it is something like having them fight nude from then on out or something.  the previous organizer of the arena had rape matches, which means there is a market for sexual arousal.  it was considered cruel to have people rapped, having people nude is a far cry from that, but still fulfills the sexual arousal side of the market (not to mention extra fan service for the comic).

keep in mind that the arena is both a business and a public service.  excessively having people forced into sex is pretty much what happened in the past, and thus the public service aspect of the arena would get flak due to not really changing.  as a business you want to cater to your market.

as a comic simply having the country she's in as being completely bad without any real upside (corruption so rampant that those with money can do what ever they want, to the determent of others) is cheap, thus i am willing to bet that the warden won't pull a second 'bad deal' out to simply gain at the expense of another, when it is certainly possible to gain by offering something far more palatable.

bulmabriefs144

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #346 on: July 12, 2015, 04:48:18 pm »
Nah, there is an upside. It's a free country as long as you mind other people's space. You wanna turn tricks? Have a con artistry business? Nobody cares. Free country, free enterprise, and no taxes. Just don't bully ppl. There's plenty good about the country, but only if you can understand how to live without hurting others.

Of course, it's easier for people with a business mindset than people who are only good at stealing.

Nudity wouldn't cut it as a deal. They'd need more than that.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2015, 04:55:16 pm by bulmabriefs144 »
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

SAGG

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #347 on: July 12, 2015, 06:21:11 pm »
Why do I think a country like this one wouldn't survive long in the real world? Corruption is the rule rather than the exception, and it seems to be everywhere. (pauses) Then again, the Roman Empire lasted what, a thousand years...?  ???

bulmabriefs144

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #348 on: July 13, 2015, 04:25:22 am »
You'd be right and wrong. First off, out of the gate, it's an anarchy. There are no known anarchies in this world. The closest thing is Switzerland, which allows all citizens to basically carry around guns with them, and has meeting summits for world leaders. How does it maintain sovereignty? By having everyone armed to defend the country. Second closest is the Holy Roman empire, which last years and years, despite being a disorganized mess.
"Nature abhors a vacuum," they say but actually it's just fear and uncertainty. In any case, no such restrictions exist here. Since it's there, there are forces both for its stability, and for its destruction. On the one hand, it is likely to cannibalize itself either through  taxes, corruption, or something else. On the other, it has a healthy economy, doesn't appear to want to change (meaning no voting for leader, and no revolt, and no revolt), is a tax free state, and really isn't a state meaning there are no rules. It also runs a justice system very effectively on bread and circuses. Yeah there are many things kinda sick about the country, but I can see why Polly used to say she loved the country.
It's not for everyone, clearly. But between that and creepy wizards controlling everyone with smoke and mirrors, I think I trust a government that doesn't lie about what it is more. It's disorganized, it's greedy, and its prison are hypocritical. I don't think they claimed to be any utopia, whereas the other place has a whole magic kingdom that we later find out is fake, supported by science when most of the citizens are blissfully unaware of how the tech they use works or even what a machine is.

Anyway... this filler strip is kinda funny, because this is largely what Flipside has done with the gender roles of the characters. Bern, Maytag, and other women seem very much in the lead. The men on the other hand, are largely in the background.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2015, 04:48:59 pm by bulmabriefs144 »
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #349 on: July 14, 2015, 03:56:18 pm »
Dang. I didn't know Bern was sexist.

bulmabriefs144

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #350 on: July 15, 2015, 06:32:58 am »
I would imagine mildly so.  As in, more of a "guys are icky" deal (hence most of her love interests seem to be girls) than a sorta "men shouldn't be allowed to vote" thing.  She thinks guys that actually show talent (like big I-beam guy) are cool with her, but probably sees alot of guys that are all talk and no action. Or who are pushy jerks that want to rape her.

Keep in mind we have seen Maytag have sex with either gender, but Bern seems to be gold star lesbian. At least some of that is from either sexism, or really bad experiences with men in the past.

Pffft. Bern is sexist, maybe. Maytag on the other hand, is a sex fiend.

http://flipside.keenspot.com/comic.php?i=2123

Something occurred to me when rereading this. The guy said Harker used to be in charge, and he had a rape penchant, and went on and on about it. Yet Warden calls the guy Harker. Given that I think she'd know the difference between two people... is it possible this guy has a Jekyll and Hyde personality? That Harker "isn't in charge anymore" because he's gotten control of him?

I saw Inside Out too! It was so cute...  :-*
« Last Edit: July 15, 2015, 03:55:07 pm by bulmabriefs144 »
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #351 on: July 20, 2015, 05:52:02 pm »
Hmm... Not sure how to feel about this. On the one hand it's sick, I mean c'mon. On the other hand though, it's better then being a slave to that fat guy for 19 more days. Plus y'know, not like it's something they both wanted at one time, still, sick. Can't say I wouldn't like to see what would happen if they got together like that though. If I'm being honest, as much as I love May and Bern's sweet scenes, they never really made much sense to me. Then again, that's usually the most lasting kinds. Who knows.

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #352 on: July 20, 2015, 07:35:04 pm »
Yes please? Err um. I mean... what a shocking thing to ask of them!! :o

Kiran

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #353 on: July 21, 2015, 08:21:12 am »
Ok, I laughed a bit :P
And Polly face, how to try to defend Bern honor while not rejecting such perfect offer.
And Bern?
She was willing to become a sex slave and have sex with random strangers for the night and even more with such determined face, but I think this situation is different cause she has feelings for Polly if the dream is any indication...
But it should not be a problem for both remembering all awful past choices if this offer is indeed true; from other side showing something such private where I think both would prefer their first time with each other be something private and special than it being a sex show for random lesbian porn fan.
Tough decision, if Polly would want to keep Bern pure and all that she should pass the offer and reject it, since her having sex with Bern for some guy watching eyes would still make Bern dirty in a way.

Dang. I didn't know Bern was sexist.
How she is a sexist?

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #354 on: July 21, 2015, 08:37:04 am »
Well, Bern did just very recently offer to replace her for her remaining 18 days if she ever felt the need. This seems like a fair compromise if I ever heard one. Har, har.

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #355 on: July 21, 2015, 12:12:28 pm »
These vindictive cruel bastards want HER badly!  It so perverse how wicked-hearted miscreants want to corrupt  innocent and kind-hearted people.  Guess it just makes them feel more justified with their evil ways.

Again I don't think this is about solely the fans or the money.. these Sick SICK Bastards want to make Bern compromise her ethics... just to make a point that everyone is a corruptable as them! 

I mean come'on.. you think that Bern and Polly's conversations in their 'gilded cell' are not being monitored? Seriously?!?  These people ARE plain EVIL... and they take perverse pleasure in spreading the evil of their own avarice. Yes, the Arena coordinators will make a profit at this cause of one jaded fan's fantasy fulfilled, the fact that this DIRECTLY goes against Bern's professed monogamous fidelity... is NOT just a coincidence!  They REALLY want to erode her noble and honorable heart!
"...no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free.  No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything - you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is Kill him." - Robert A. Heinlein


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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #356 on: July 21, 2015, 01:44:14 pm »
Well. This suddenly came out of right field...  :o I suspect Polly, while being abhorred by the offer like Bern, very secretly would be somewhat curiously delighted because, well, it's Bern, who's she's loved all these years. I could actually see Bern possibly considering it, if nothing else because she feels she owes Polly for Polly's sacrifice. How would this affect her relationship with Maytag, though...?  ???

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #357 on: July 21, 2015, 05:35:56 pm »
Nah, there is an upside. It's a free country as long as you mind other people's space. You wanna turn tricks? Have a con artistry business? Nobody cares. Free country, free enterprise, and no taxes. Just don't bully ppl. There's plenty good about the country, but only if you can understand how to live without hurting others.

Of course, it's easier for people with a business mindset than people who are only good at stealing.

Nudity wouldn't cut it as a deal. They'd need more than that.

actually you can bully people, but not physically.  if you would remember how she got into this mess, she promised to do anything if she got aid.  basically trading a future amount of labor of potentially massive amounts for some basic healing.  stabilizing her father temporarily would allow them to name their price, and if she reneged of the deal they could end their stabilization, resulting in her father's death.

likewise let's say a criminal flees one of the northern city states with a ton of gold.  then buys up a food market in a small village.  now as we all now food doesn't grow year round, thus he has all the food for a certain distance (minus those that stockpiled their own supply).  he could ask from the poor that didn't have enough to stockpile food for some additional labor or something else that seems reasonable, but in effect increases the cost.  he can then leverage such gains to buy a wider radius of food control.  then those in that initial village now can be charged even more due to the hardships of traveling further to get food, in addition to the fact that more people would have run through their stockpile.  some would have left, but not all for various reasons.  those that didn't or couldn't leave are now his personal slaves, living and dying at his whim.  by leveraging this labor force he can increase his influence area, trapping more people and getting more slaves.  as long as no one is allowed to rise up against him he can continue, unless someone else with money decides to counter him, at which point they would either replace him a the slave owner or be a benevolent leader.  in any case freedom from bullying is the last thing you have.

granted if it was a true anarchy then he would have to worry about physical security against rebellion and such resulting in more operational expenses due to unethical treatment of his lessers.


as for nudity being insufficient, it is a matter of how much the sex slaving costs vs. how common nudity is.  imagine that he pay $1000 a night, that people would only be willing to pay $1 for nude female fighters over clothed female fighters, and the stadium holds on average 300 people:

sex slave deal for 18 more nights equals $18000.
it would take 60 days of nude fighting to match the sex slaving.
it would take 3 months at S-rank to get all paid off, which is 50% more money.
if they stay as A-rank it'll take 6 months, which is double the money.

given what we know of this society it is easier than reality to pay for sex, especially for the rich, which means $1000 is high.  we also know that there is a draw for sexual themed fights given the costumes and history of rape fights, greater than reality, so $1 is a tad low for extra drawing power.  therefore this is a very conservative guesstimate.

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #358 on: July 22, 2015, 05:10:55 am »
Wow, Bern. You actually went a bit farther than I thought, though I called it in terms of you wanting to make it up to Polly. Clearly, Polly figures something is up, and it probably is. It's too easy...

bulmabriefs144

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #359 on: July 22, 2015, 05:28:40 am »
Bern is a bit of an idiot for jumping at deals. She can't help it. She's honest, and wants to help, and doesn't tend to think ahead. But yea, she's better with this than with a random stranger. The real problem of course is there is another person involved (remember? May?) So this isn't cut and dry.
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison