Author Topic: Chapter 43: Discussion  (Read 50804 times)

monimoni

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #270 on: June 02, 2015, 02:38:20 am »
Hah! Warden seriously needed to shut the f up. But what actually happened here, how did Bern have the strength to kick him? Normally after being choked to death I would imagine that the first thing you would want to do is desperately gasp for air. I mean, she looked about to lose consciousness. And why did the sword burn him? It didn't do that before when he was trying to pull it from her. Is it somehow absorbing oxygen too? :D

bulmabriefs144

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #271 on: June 02, 2015, 11:20:59 am »
It's actually simple physics.

The guy is holding her. One sword is embedded inside, he chokes her and applies force. Her sword touches him and "burns" him (actually what is happening is more like a super-strong arm grab to his arm, breaking his grip). He lets go. Now here's where physics comes in. She's effectively using leverage/momentum/gravity to push her leg against him. This is not a kick, this is a "my sword is stuck inside you, so I'm using my feet to lean against you to pull the sword out." Note that she showed her foot pressing flatly against is chest, near the sword. This is exactly what's happening, she's pressing against him to pull her sword out. The sudden loss of suction as the sword comes out is knocking him off balance, not her strength. This is also what is causing a massive amount of blood to fly out. Consider it like this, the sword was attached to his body like a giant sideways T, she pulls the line out, and he falls over because he's not attached to her anymore. Effectively, even if she exerts no strength, leaning on the sword like that is 125 lb or so of weight.

 

« Last Edit: June 02, 2015, 11:25:23 am by bulmabriefs144 »
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #272 on: June 02, 2015, 11:50:18 am »
Yeah I don't know.
Not a fan of the string of actions for reasons already mentioned.

I'm glad it's over and we can move onto what happens next now.

mittfh

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #273 on: June 03, 2015, 12:41:05 am »
# When Bern knows more of tactics than a novice in a nunnery... :)

(With apologies to W. S. Gilbert)

bulmabriefs144

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #274 on: June 03, 2015, 06:19:30 am »
Lolwut?  ??? I don't even remember that event. She touched the ball for all of two seconds while on the ground.

I think she completely failed to realize what this sword does from where she sits, and made a screwy assumption.  Also, that moment  totally looks planned, right?!? (Wrong, starting with her "planning" on getting choked to death)  ;D

Which kind of defines the situation, from where the audience sits they probably see her having a really strong sword, and are filling in the gaps with their assumptions (I wonder what they saw when the sword mirror-swapped those two spells). It's all about perspective and assumptions.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2015, 06:51:11 am by bulmabriefs144 »
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #275 on: June 03, 2015, 11:37:01 am »
Hm a bit more foreshadowing that this is a ball on a chain being thrown would've been nice, it wasn't clear what the hell the fire thingy that was being thrown was up until now.
I thought it was a yoyo or some sort of sling that shoots fireballs.
Would've been more of an "aha, now it all comes together" moment if that was a bit more clear.

So she took the sand to the face on purpose so she could touch the ball, let him break her leg on purpose so the stored up heat won't fizzle off from blocking and got into a situation in which, "realistically", her neck should have been broken instantly on purpose to get a chance to burn his arm a little so he goes "ouchies"?
Somehow I doubt this was the best option she got against an one-armed man with a broken weapon.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2015, 11:39:34 am by 9_6 »

SAGG

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #276 on: June 03, 2015, 01:23:07 pm »
I honestly don't know if what the warden is assuming is true, but her analytical thinking (and assumption) is impressive. I'll make yet another bold prediction down the line: Bern and the warden WILL do battle for Bern's (and quite possible Polly's) freedom. Whether or not Bern tries to escape now, or later. And it will be a battle of epic Flipside proportions, possibly the greatest battle of Bern's life...  ;D

sunphoenix

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #277 on: June 03, 2015, 06:05:17 pm »
Bah!  Bunch of Nay-sayers.. the lot of you! :) {jesting}

I think its more likely.. Bern was just as shocked when one-arm road up on her sword in his guts to grab her neck as everyone else was.  I think she was in quite a bind, and about to have her pretty neck broke {Which, you try that one-handed?  It would take superhuman strength just to attempt to pull it off AT ALL~ so the fact that it 'seemed' to take one-arm several seconds to make the attempt; I'm not surprised at... Bern is not weak nor is any normal healthy adult person.  To crush someone's neck closed-fisted is simply in the realm of superhuman, he didn't even have his thumb on her windpipe for better leverage}!

BUT, Bern remembered the fact that her sword was still storing the heat from the 'fire' ball and chain and saw a chance to~ heh.. BERN {burn} him in hopes he would break his grip!  The first thing she did on that 'lucky' break was to push him away so he could not try that 'almost fatal' attack again.  I don't think there was any 'planning' going on in her head.  She performed a perfect counterstrike and likely Expected that to take the fight out of the guy.. instead he dropped his weapon and grabbed for her throat.  Bern made a desperate ploy to make him loose his grip... and she got lucky. Nuff' said.

Do not discount luck in a fight... you may be the best swordsman or warrior out there but an unlucky step or turn of fortunes and your still dead!
« Last Edit: June 03, 2015, 06:12:40 pm by sunphoenix »
"...no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free.  No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything - you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is Kill him." - Robert A. Heinlein


mittfh

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #278 on: June 04, 2015, 12:14:46 am »
Obviously, Bern didn't plan on this exact sequence of events. But the only way she could adequately fight him was to get up close (so making it difficult for him to use his weapon) - I imagine she heated up the one sword with the intention of making him drop his weapon and concede defeat, but she didn't expect him to not block her thrust with the other sword into his abdomen, or for him to try strangling her.

What the sequence of images doesn't adequately show is that when he lunged to grab her throat, she probably started moving the heated sword at that point, so it made contact shortly after the grab. What appears to take ~10 seconds or so in the sequence would only have taken a couple of seconds in reality - but is slowed down so we can get the exposition from Warden.

bulmabriefs144

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #279 on: June 04, 2015, 06:56:46 am »
I honestly don't know if what the warden is assuming is true, but her analytical thinking (and assumption) is impressive. I'll make yet another bold prediction down the line: Bern and the warden WILL do battle for Bern's (and quite possible Polly's) freedom. Whether or not Bern tries to escape now, or later. And it will be a battle of epic Flipside proportions, possibly the greatest battle of Bern's life...  ;D

I thought so too. I also think that the Warden's filter of how events were will give her an advantage in said battle. The bruiser she's fighting now figured out what's up, and this is precisely why the battle is so hard (plus his crazy determination). The Warden sees it as a hot sword, because she has a filter around what Bern can and can't do, and has been consistently seeing Bern as just fighting well, yet not seeing the reality of what is happening. When she gets outmatched, her filter sees "just as I thought, she isn't a real warrior." Bern proved her wrong, and rather than admit it, "Oh she got lucky and/or planned this." Maybe she isn't a "real" warrior, but she can hold her own. It isn't that the Warden underestimates her though, but rather, she completely sees her as worthy and simultaneously completely missed this battle because she knows the swords are magical but doesn't understand them.

Fact: She was not in contact with the sword for long enough for it to still be hot, and if it was, it would have conducted into the weapon when she blocked it. Not to mention burning her hands. Fact: Her swords actual power is to take the force with one sword, and transfer it into another. Fact: None of this is shown in the previous comics (I checked) meaning Warden is taking minute details and spinning it to match what she saw.

That is, the "hot" sword was actually giving pain that he was giving her. But, what the audience is explaining it as (since they're far away and can't see directly, and because filtering it another way is at odds with their understanding of how magic works) is as a "hot" sword. Or maybe Bern is wrong about the sword. Truth is in eye of the beholder, I guess.
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

SAGG

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #280 on: June 08, 2015, 05:51:16 am »
So, the previous page on 6/5 was half of the 6/8 page?  ??? Curious. Anyway, the guy's still ALIVE?!  :o He's one tough dude, as well as his "team mates"....

sunphoenix

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #281 on: June 08, 2015, 10:11:03 am »
Bern - "...do you admit defeat?"

'One-Arm' - "...is a request for sex out of the question?"

Bern - "!!! ...yes."

'One-Arm' - "...{sigh}... darn, ok, You win."
"...no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free.  No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything - you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is Kill him." - Robert A. Heinlein


TheCollector

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #282 on: June 08, 2015, 11:00:36 am »
Damn you flipside! I've been hating on Bern and how pathetic she's been this Coliseum arm for what seems like forever and then you give us that ultra bad ass middle panel and make me fall in love again! Damn it!

crazy_razor

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #283 on: June 08, 2015, 03:42:03 pm »
Just wanted to pop in to say that I still love Bern best and this arc has reminded me why. Aaa.......... :-*

REMOTELY LAME - comics & art just 4 u!

bulmabriefs144

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #284 on: June 09, 2015, 12:16:12 pm »
Yay! Battle won!

Two worries though...

One, the crowd may call for blood in order for her to get A rank.

Two, I'm not clear how the bidding went on those handicaps. As in, Warden said something about how all previous bets are in place or something. Does that mean that while Polly outbidded her, she also has to spend a few nights with strangers? Or is it all on Polly?
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

Kiran

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #285 on: June 10, 2015, 05:57:17 am »
Now finally seeing the outcome, tell me that Bern's father was a smart person and that he managed to borrow some money and he bet on Bern winning here, cause with the prize won he would be able to easy buy her and Polly marks out.

Makes me curious how this will really play out, if the fights are to the death for both sides and not only Bern slaughter, then if Bern won't kill them now in cold blood, maybe she won't be given the A rank after all?
Seeing how Warden acted so far I bet she would do everything and use everything she can to make Bern wrong here and to show Warden's harsh viewpoint is the only truth here in the colloseum.
But then i expect the audience to "boo" her and Warden be giving Bern a B rank or something for her efforts.

Also I wonder if the swords are genetically marked, like no one that Grant and his blood relatives could use them fully, and what their real power is, if Crest super sword could have 2 modes depending on the side of the blade used, then Bern's ones may have even more uses than just absorbing the attack power and then sending it back and also being a storage, they maybe also work as dispelling feature to magical weapons making them useless after.

I kidna want to see how Bern will want to repay Polly after all this will end, first Polly taking half of her marks on her and later throwing herself willingly under the bus for Bern so Bern could stay pure in her morality slate.
I suppose Bern offering Polly sex is out of the question? :P
I doubt Polly would even want that since that would feel forced anyway on similair level of what Warden did to them with the options.
Can Bern have a room in her heart for someone more than just Maytag? We saw the dream, but is this just only sexual attraction or there's something more going here in Bern head?

I would want to see Bern willingly doing it with someone whose she would start having feelings for, and then see how May would actually react to this situation. What if Bern won't want to share Polly with May, and she will want to have two exclusive relations? ::)

bulmabriefs144

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #286 on: June 10, 2015, 09:12:43 am »
Modes? This isn't digimon.  ;D His sword just had a stun effect for the flat of the blade.

That said you have a point (also, in the portion above, the Warden actually has had her back, as she pulled some strings to get her the swords and the battle; it's just she has a narrow view), as from studying how these swords work, I have a pretty good idea how they work.

It's called transference. They aren't antimagic so much as able to transfer heat, cold, force, physical power, etc. Given this, I bet if she wanted to, she could use them as healing swords (by transferring injuries to herself, though). And I'm sure there are other things she can do. It probably can "dispel" magical weapons (by pulling the magical power from the weapon, and having it on short-term storage). And it probably can cut through magical forcefields.

Bern would probably be okay with sex with Polly, but thankfully not random strangers. That said, I think Bern has a strong need right now to remain faithful. It's one of those things couples discuss together, because cheating is not okay, but May might be open for a threesome if asked.
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #287 on: June 10, 2015, 10:53:54 am »
Huh. I thought those guys were S Rank or something.

sunphoenix

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #288 on: June 10, 2015, 01:43:50 pm »
Huh. I thought those guys were S Rank or something.

Nah, they were all 'A' Rank..cause they just were not quite skilled enough to be 'S' Rank.
"...no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free.  No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything - you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is Kill him." - Robert A. Heinlein


SAGG

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #289 on: June 10, 2015, 02:39:42 pm »
Why do I feel sickened at the crowd's roar of approval for Bern's victory? What a bunch of monsters...  >:(

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #290 on: June 10, 2015, 06:32:22 pm »
Why do I feel sickened at the crowd's roar of approval for Bern's victory? What a bunch of monsters...  >:(

They didn't know they were trying to kill her.

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #291 on: June 11, 2015, 12:27:21 am »
Why do I feel sickened at the crowd's roar of approval for Bern's victory? What a bunch of monsters...  >:(

They didn't know they were trying to kill her.
How do you know that? Remember, these people like to see blood...

sunphoenix

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #292 on: June 11, 2015, 03:05:47 pm »
Why do I feel sickened at the crowd's roar of approval for Bern's victory? What a bunch of monsters...  >:(

They didn't know they were trying to kill her.
How do you know that? Remember, these people like to see blood...

Try to keep in mind... it was not the audience that set up or demanded the arena, and most fights are not to the death as that is a breach of the arena rules.  Like even modern sports fans they like to see the big hits in full contact American Football, or the tireless resilience of a star Boxer... including the brutal 'no-holds-barred' of the UFC.  Its not that the audience per' se wants to see blood, it couched and spun in the media as exciting, battles between skilled warriors, for high stakes.  I'm sure most of the 'fans' never even ponder the darker side of the entire institution.

And even the most 'family-friendly' sports can be turned into something VERY ugly when the administrators running it are corrupt of any morals!
"...no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free.  No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything - you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is Kill him." - Robert A. Heinlein


mittfh

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #293 on: June 12, 2015, 12:47:18 am »
The House is certainly going to make a lot of money from the betting pool... :)

Now while it would be tempting for the Colosseum to bring out Bern regularly for fights, it would be more prudent to keep her for those who've got too big in the head and think they're invincible - teach them a lesson as well as drawing in the crowds. Besides which, the more fights she's involved in, the more she loses the element of surprise as word of her tactics spreads.

ipatrol

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #294 on: June 12, 2015, 06:17:57 am »
Why do I feel sickened at the crowd's roar of approval for Bern's victory? What a bunch of monsters...  >:(

They didn't know they were trying to kill her.
How do you know that? Remember, these people like to see blood...

Try to keep in mind... it was not the audience that set up or demanded the arena, and most fights are not to the death as that is a breach of the arena rules.  Like even modern sports fans they like to see the big hits in full contact American Football, or the tireless resilience of a star Boxer... including the brutal 'no-holds-barred' of the UFC.  Its not that the audience per' se wants to see blood, it couched and spun in the media as exciting, battles between skilled warriors, for high stakes.  I'm sure most of the 'fans' never even ponder the darker side of the entire institution.

And even the most 'family-friendly' sports can be turned into something VERY ugly when the administrators running it are corrupt of any morals!

Historically though, blood spectacle was not uncommon. Most Roman gladiator fights didn't end in death either; gladiators were quite expensive to train. The Romans were used to these sort of events, and they were even told it was civically virtuous because it reminded them of Rome's long military history in the same way that movies like American Sniper get billed as "patriotic" today.

These people are, to the Marvolloans, criminals, and therefore are likely not inclined to care much about what happens to them. I do organizing for prisoners and such, and I swear today that attitude has not much changed. As for the system behind it? Of course they don't know about its dark side, because those who do are almost certainly not in attendance.

bulmabriefs144

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #295 on: June 12, 2015, 09:22:32 pm »
Let's think about boxing. It's not set up as a bloodsport per se. But because of the better culture, it becomes extremely corrupt. Not only that, because blows to the head are not discouraged (well, it involves a knockout, rather than like sumo a simple ringout, and while you could in theory knock someone out through body blows, the results in long term might be internal bleeding), it is easy to over time crush someone brains out. This is a sport with known potential for corruption.

Or football, where 300+ lb guys are encouraged to tackle (pinning would be alot safer) meaning a high-speed impact with 300 lb of weight. These might as well be human cars. To say nothing of also extreme brain injuries because of the extremely hard helmets (what was wrong with leather headgear again? Seriously). This is a sport where there might be corruption, but we would not know about it from the setup.

The audience doesn't think about the lethal aspects of the event, if it's not commonplace. If it is commonplace, they can become desensitized to it. But in the cause that it is rare, there is such a thing as a planned accident.

Let's use football as an example again. Suppose a player was really unpopular, some idealist type that made a lot of changes and upgrades to the sport. The teammates love them, the audience doesn't know about this, and the officials hate them. Under family-friendly rules, let's say the teams are paid money to arrange a little "accident". Sometime during the 3rd quarter, the player has the ball after being hiked back, and is preparing to throw it. Instead of guarding the player, the team fans out, as if preparing to catch the pass (but in fact, leaving that player completely  open) while they figure out who to throw it to. In comes the other team, slamming together against this player. From the audience's perspective, it's a bad play. They don't think "that guy is going home in a body bag."

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/oct/03/american-football-third-us-teen

I don't know that it's to that point yet, but still...

So back to the "games". We know that this country, because there are no taxes, everything including basic utilities is run by business. We also know that it is a constitutional anarchy. The games, then, are every bit as corrupt as boxing, and worse, the audience is probably told that the players are healed after every game, and repeatedly told about the penalty (as in, propaganda that the games are safe). Whether people are alive and wounded, or very clearly dead, they are likely walked off the field in much the same way so as the audience sees what they expect to see, not someone killed because they were a trouble maker, but X fighter beat Y in battle, so rather than a bloodfest, they just think of it as an exciting fight.

There is also the fact that there is the "no force" culture. You can conceivably have that, but there are certain side effects, like that some violent drives get pushed into the background and people subconsciously crave things like gore and rape. That is, without reasonable situations where people would fight to defend themselves (think about Bern's original situation, and how she was basically not even allowed to threaten the guy), the outlet for some of their flight or fight hormones manifests in weird ways.

Hopefully, between her dad betting on her, and possibly the warden betting on her, her debt can be paid off. Otherwise, I don't know how she'd hold up in future battles, except against opponents that didn't understand her sword. Hopefully, she can use the downtime to figure out more of what it does.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2015, 09:27:12 pm by bulmabriefs144 »
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

sunphoenix

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #296 on: June 13, 2015, 05:42:46 am »
AHHH... the Power of Love! :)
"...no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free.  No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything - you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is Kill him." - Robert A. Heinlein


mittfh

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #297 on: June 15, 2015, 12:55:34 am »
Nice, decent accommodation - but as ever, there's bound to be a catch - possibly revealed with this conversation with the Director (although last time he wasn't the most fluent person in the country, with his suspiciously specific denials about rape...)

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #298 on: June 15, 2015, 05:44:54 am »
I see that nice room, they have the two of them together...Bern is going to cheat!

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #299 on: June 15, 2015, 07:39:04 am »
Why do I feel sickened at the crowd's roar of approval for Bern's victory? What a bunch of monsters...  >:(

They didn't know they were trying to kill her.

There goes that theory. If the prison director is making such bets, then murder must be a known and accepted option in Marvolo. This kind of changes everything in the prison, and maybe town.

Where was Brion's post about what goes there again?