Author Topic: Chapter 43: Discussion  (Read 66210 times)

bulmabriefs144

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #210 on: May 08, 2015, 04:46:25 am »
Bern is actually way more black and white than I am. I'm just incredibly stubborn and stuff I disagree with, I really really hate. Not so much because it's wrong but because it's wrong for me. Which frankly, is all something needs to be to reject it anyway.  The reason Bloody Mary is a monster not because she hurt someone she cared about. It's because of her fighting style. Bern explained this. Humans use weapons. Monsters use teeth and claws. She wasnt calling her a "monster" she was stating a fact, her blade deals with beasts differently.  Because they have different physiology and cutting one up is a bit more okay.

Yes bern is "off balance" (pffft), but she's loads cooler than the knight with the eyepiece. She doesn't tend to make judgement calls on the rest of humanity, her morality seems strictly self centered. As in, aside from wanting exclusive relationship, May could go have orgies, but she sits that out. Which is precisely why she'd get jealous, she doesn't give herself the same rights as she gives others.

In terms of Polly, I don't think she has had time to look around, you know?  Not when some guy is attacking and won't let you have a moments peace to just look around and see stuff. She won't bend and break because this situation is actively encouraging her to do stuff unpleasant, like murder.

Aversion to murder does not have to be a black and white mentality. You could run into people who say murder is wrong "except" if they rape my daughter. But there you go. That's making exceptions. To me, the idea of someone making me into something I'mnot, yea it makes me throw up inside my mouth. And if their intent were to make me into some violent killer, it would not be "rigid" morality to want to stand firm against this crap, it would be something baser like disgust. I'm not sinking to this level, even if they manage to kill me. She has to find a good "disable all" technique that simply takes him out of the battle without letal force. Or just kill his sword and punch him out.

Actually, I wouldn't want to see her cheat, either. But I do want to see her facing her problem of seeing things in absolute black and whites.  Nude art must be something sexual (and therefore bad?!).  Bloody Mary hurt someone I cared about, so she must be a Monster.  I'd have to re-read to see what she thinks of cheating - I kind of remember her saying she knew about Maytag cheating on her but stayed with her anyway, during Suspira's bitchy spell reveal moment - but I still get a sense of Bernadette's character being very righteously judgemental sometimes, in a bad way.  I like that she's committed to being a "good person" by however she defines that standard.  There seem to be too few of those in this comic, of the main characters who seem to give off the vibe of wanting to actively be "good guys" I count Bernadette and Crest.  I thought rejecting her dream of becoming a knight to stay with Maytag was a real step in the direction of character growth, away from those judgemental tendencies.  But I haven't seen that sort of growth re: her attitude towards sexuality.  It's complicated I guess - I want to see Bernadette becoming more open-minded and forgiving, but I don't want to see her lose her core values or suddenly be down with engaging in a threesome or whatever.

I don't see that sort of interesting personal growth happening in this arena arc.  If anything, the whole "I can't bend or break!" declaration while Polly was going to the wall for her over there really annoys me.  As I said before, why wasn't she like that in the cell?  It's almost hypocritical to find her resolve now.  When she was fighting Elvis in that enchanted castle, she was ready to give up and die (and let Maytag and the others die too) because her fighting style didn't work, rather than lower her standards and use other people as meatshields to win.  Here, she's a different person.  All she does is lose a little sleep, shed a few guilty tears and get saved by her dad's magic swords, which was apparently all it took to recover her confidence.  I haven't even got the sense that she's taking into account Polly's human shielding, as if she forgot about all of that now that she has the swords.   Of course this chapter isn't over yet, so hopefully I will be eating my words later on.  But I'm still not a happy camper yet.  :P

You totally need to sing this song (from the Sleepaway Camp series)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vjJjlBduQk

As I see it, Bern has a few perfectly viable nonlethal options. I dunno why this fight is dragging on so long, besides that she's off her game.

  • She can hamstring him. She doesn't need to cut through the legs to do this, just the joints or whatever.
  • She can knock him out with the flat of her sword. Best option, as it means he can viably  challenge other people.
  • She can block and push, knocking him against the wall.
  • She can break his sword, then punch him out.
  • Kick him hard in the balls.
  • She can break his sword and cut his fingers.

All of these will end the battle without making him die afterwards.

Yeah, I appreciate keeping one's ethics. But she needs to stop dragging her feet and end this before he forces her to do something rash.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2015, 05:53:15 pm by bulmabriefs144 »
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #211 on: May 09, 2015, 03:31:45 am »
I guess next limbs will come off and flipside will go all monty python black knight on us.

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #212 on: May 09, 2015, 04:41:21 am »
I guess next limbs will come off and flipside will go all monty python black knight on us.

Bit late for that. Both Mr. I-Beam and Yo-yo girl lost an arm already.

As for the "murder is wrong" thing. Murder is ALWAYS wrong. No exceptions. The death penalty is NOT murder. It is the taking of a guilty criminal's life as punishment for a specific crime, and all the way back to the code of Hamurabi, rape is an offense that warrants the death penalty. Even the second commandment specifically allows for the death penalty. "He who sheds innocent blood shall be slain by human hands."

The death penalty requires a little something called "due process." That is, bringing forth evidence, witnesses and delivering judgement from a higher power. A man running up and killing someone because he THINKS (or "knows") a guy raped his daughter would be homicide, a lesser form of murder, and could itself be punishable by death.

Self-defense is not murder. Someone breaks into your house, he's not there to deliver a check from Ed Mc Mahon. He's there to steal, KILL, and destroy. You still don't get to chase him down and kill him if he flees, however. Someone comes at you with a weapon, and you fight back, resulting in his death, it's not murder.

Soldiers killing enemy soldiers on the battlefield is not murder. It's war. And both armies are fighting to survive. Combatants firing rockets into a civilian dwelling, or deliberately targeting unarmed non-combatants IS murder.

Extremists running into a civilian establishment seeking to kill as many people as possible is not "holy." It's murder. Even if they try to "justify" it by claiming "provocation" afterwards, by pointing to a set of "laws" that isn't even written down. (The Koran does NOT say "go forth and kill everyone who utters the name mohammad, or dares draw a picture of his likeness," for example.)

As for Bern's options? She's already cut off his arm and left deep gashes in his chest, and he keeps coming! (Not to mention destroying his weapon.)

Also, remember her style is almost exclusively counter attacks. It is very difficult for her to do anything preemptive.

He's also extremely "proud," determined, and believes he has a license to kill, or die trying. Bern's in a really hard place right now, and I don't envy her for a moment.

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #213 on: May 09, 2015, 08:05:58 am »
I guess next limbs will come off and flipside will go all monty python black knight on us.

Bit late for that. Both Mr. I-Beam and Yo-yo girl lost an arm already.
There are still those annoying kicky jumpy legs to be dealt with.

bulmabriefs144

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #214 on: May 09, 2015, 04:23:29 pm »
Blue.

I guess next limbs will come off and flipside will go all monty python black knight on us.

Bit late for that. Both Mr. I-Beam and Yo-yo girl lost an arm already.

As for the "murder is wrong" thing. Murder is ALWAYS wrong. No exceptions. The death penalty is NOT murder.

You, uhhh just made one. By putting a fancy label on a word. Tell me, what is the difference between murder in revenge, sentencing someone to death through court proceedings, and killing in war? Not much. Someone was alive and had something going for them. Now they're dead, and their story is over. You've killed them.

Fact: the same physical action is employed for all three occasions, war, justice, or murder. There is fundamentally no difference besides the words. "I want you dead" vs "You are guilty, and sentenced to death" vs "It's war, so you have to die because you're the enemy." You can kill someone or you can spare them. But be honest about it.


 It is the taking of a guilty criminal's life as punishment for a specific crime, and all the way back to the code of Hamurabi, rape is an offense that warrants the death penalty. Even the second commandment specifically allows for the death penalty. "He who sheds innocent blood shall be slain by human hands."

No it doesn't. The original 10 commandments do not state this. This is the Mosaic Code. Last I checked, we neither care about women wearing the pants of men, nor kosher diet, nor mixing fibers in clothing. This law is not directly tied to the 10 commandments, and even if it was, this is a rationalization. A person shall be slain by human hands, mebbe. But it never said they must. It is also written "vengeance is mine." Bern very much has a choice in the matter.

The death penalty requires a little something called "due process." That is, bringing forth evidence, witnesses and delivering judgement from a higher power. A man running up and killing someone because he THINKS (or "knows") a guy raped his daughter would be homicide, a lesser form of murder, and could itself be punishable by death.

Self-defense is not murder. Someone breaks into your house, he's not there to deliver a check from Ed Mc Mahon. He's there to steal, KILL, and destroy. You still don't get to chase him down and kill him if he flees, however. Someone comes at you with a weapon, and you fight back, resulting in his death, it's not murder.

Because something is reasonable (and yes you have this right) does not make it the only option. A guy breaks into your house, you can club him until he leaves, or sic dogs on him.

Soldiers killing enemy soldiers on the battlefield is not murder. It's war. And both armies are fighting to survive. Combatants firing rockets into a civilian dwelling, or deliberately targeting unarmed non-combatants IS murder.

Again, you have delusions that there is a dinstinction. Call things by their proper name.

http://blog.independent.org/2013/02/07/now-we-know-war-is-murder/


Extremists running into a civilian establishment seeking to kill as many people as possible is not "holy." It's murder. Even if they try to "justify" it by claiming "provocation" afterwards, by pointing to a set of "laws" that isn't even written down. (The Koran does NOT say "go forth and kill everyone who utters the name mohammad, or dares draw a picture of his likeness," for example.)

Muslims believe that they are at war, and civilians are a threat to their way of life. They will have children who they will teach their way of life. Either realize that war is evil, but something you do in hopes that future generations will benefit, or stop kipping yourself and do not go to war.

As for Bern's options? She's already cut off his arm and left deep gashes in his chest, and he keeps coming! (Not to mention destroying his weapon.)

Also, remember her style is almost exclusively counter attacks. It is very difficult for her to do anything preemptive.

He's also extremely "proud," determined, and believes he has a license to kill, or die trying. Bern's in a really hard place right now, and I don't envy her for a moment.

And for once this entire post, I agree.


If he goes black knight, I'm probably changing the channel. "It's just a flesh wound."
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #215 on: May 11, 2015, 06:02:55 am »
Black and Blue.

I guess next limbs will come off and flipside will go all monty python black knight on us.

Bit late for that. Both Mr. I-Beam and Yo-yo girl lost an arm already.

As for the "murder is wrong" thing. Murder is ALWAYS wrong. No exceptions. The death penalty is NOT murder.

You, uhhh just made one. By putting a fancy label on a word. Tell me, what is the difference between murder in revenge, sentencing someone to death through court proceedings, and killing in war? Not much. Someone was alive and had something going for them. Now they're dead, and their story is over. You've killed them.

Fact: the same physical action is employed for all three occasions, war, justice, or murder. There is fundamentally no difference besides the words. "I want you dead" vs "You are guilty, and sentenced to death" vs "It's war, so you have to die because you're the enemy." You can kill someone or you can spare them. But be honest about it.


 It is the taking of a guilty criminal's life as punishment for a specific crime, and all the way back to the code of Hamurabi, rape is an offense that warrants the death penalty. Even the second commandment specifically allows for the death penalty. "He who sheds innocent blood shall be slain by human hands."

No it doesn't. The original 10 commandments do not state this. This is the Mosaic Code. Last I checked, we neither care about women wearing the pants of men, nor kosher diet, nor mixing fibers in clothing. This law is not directly tied to the 10 commandments, and even if it was, this is a rationalization. A person shall be slain by human hands, mebbe. But it never said they must. It is also written "vengeance is mine." Bern very much has a choice in the matter.

The death penalty requires a little something called "due process." That is, bringing forth evidence, witnesses and delivering judgement from a higher power. A man running up and killing someone because he THINKS (or "knows") a guy raped his daughter would be homicide, a lesser form of murder, and could itself be punishable by death.

Self-defense is not murder. Someone breaks into your house, he's not there to deliver a check from Ed Mc Mahon. He's there to steal, KILL, and destroy. You still don't get to chase him down and kill him if he flees, however. Someone comes at you with a weapon, and you fight back, resulting in his death, it's not murder.

Because something is reasonable (and yes you have this right) does not make it the only option. A guy breaks into your house, you can club him until he leaves, or sic dogs on him.

Soldiers killing enemy soldiers on the battlefield is not murder. It's war. And both armies are fighting to survive. Combatants firing rockets into a civilian dwelling, or deliberately targeting unarmed non-combatants IS murder.

Again, you have delusions that there is a dinstinction. Call things by their proper name.

http://blog.independent.org/2013/02/07/now-we-know-war-is-murder/


Extremists running into a civilian establishment seeking to kill as many people as possible is not "holy." It's murder. Even if they try to "justify" it by claiming "provocation" afterwards, by pointing to a set of "laws" that isn't even written down. (The Koran does NOT say "go forth and kill everyone who utters the name mohammad, or dares draw a picture of his likeness," for example.)

Muslims believe that they are at war, and civilians are a threat to their way of life. They will have children who they will teach their way of life. Either realize that war is evil, but something you do in hopes that future generations will benefit, or stop kipping yourself and do not go to war.

As for Bern's options? She's already cut off his arm and left deep gashes in his chest, and he keeps coming! (Not to mention destroying his weapon.)

Also, remember her style is almost exclusively counter attacks. It is very difficult for her to do anything preemptive.

He's also extremely "proud," determined, and believes he has a license to kill, or die trying. Bern's in a really hard place right now, and I don't envy her for a moment.

And for once this entire post, I agree.


If he goes black knight, I'm probably changing the channel. "It's just a flesh wound."

The definition of murder since the Code of Hamurabi, the oldest written law, is "to kill an innocent person against whom you do not have a blood debt."

A blood debt is taking him (or evidence of his wrong doing) before a court and proving that he has done something to you that warrants death.

Killing someone in revenge is murder when it's not supported by the law, or an overriding public interest. Like say, shooting an axe wielding lunatic who is running down the street attacking people at random. If said lunatic happened to have raped your daughter/wife, or significant other at some time in the past, that's a bonus for you. As I said before, if you go out, on your own, with no evidence aside from your "knowledge" that he raped her and he is NOT wielding an axe, running around attacking people at random, and you shoot him anyway, that is murder because you have not proven that his actions warranted death.

That's not an exception, or contradiction. That IS the definition of murder under the law, and always has been. Anyone who says different needs to have a real long look in the mirror and ask his reflection why he's so eager to muddle the subject.

Killing an enemy combatant in war is different from murder because he is trying to kill you. Murder, as defined already, is you going out and killing someone "because you feel like it." Has that escaped your consciousness somehow?

The death penalty, which is clearly supported even by the second commandment "Thou shall not kill" applies to a very small segment of criminal behavior that is so vile, so heinous, so utterly depraved that the criminal in question has forfeited his right to live another moment, and failing to kill him puts the society at whole at risk, not only from his escaping and repeating the offense, or committing worse ones, but by inspiring others to copy it.  This is wholly different from murder, which, once again, is "I feel like killing someone" and then going and doing it.

That answers your argument "guess it's not very much." The fact that a person who was alive is now dead does NOT automatically guarantee he was murdered. Anyone who tries to muddy the definition of murder into something else clearly has some hidden agenda, and that worries me.

bulmabriefs144

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #216 on: May 13, 2015, 03:38:01 am »
But here's the thing. We've adapted to culture past the Code of Hammurabi. Most of us don't even know that culture existed. I wear the hamsa however, which dates back to around this era (along with its ties to, well, practically every religion including Islam, Judaism, Buddhism).

At the very least, we have heard from Gandhi and others "an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."

Okay, sure, people like this guy can try to satisfy their blood debts. And that's fine, this is a free world.

But being a free world, isn't the hope we live for that people don't have to live like this? That Bern has a choice? That's what she's fighting for. Heh, a warrior for kindness.

That said, Bern's gone from frightened to pissed. Look at the very beginning of this battle and this. Likely she's gonna knock him across the room.
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #217 on: May 13, 2015, 05:46:34 am »
(Fair enough. I don't really want to talk to him anyway, even to apologize) [...]

That is your right but I want to point out that Brion is developing the story just as I think it would based on my interpretation what I saw. What I outlined is what the current arc is is about, no matter if you want to see it or not. Does that make Brion the same degradory term you used on me as well in your eyes? Stating that Bernadette is not perfect and that she runs into issues due to her specific way of not being perfect? That she has to adapt in some way to get through this?

bulmabriefs144

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #218 on: May 13, 2015, 05:04:38 pm »
...

That went over my head, sorry. Brion is cool. I've texted him by email before.

Here's my take.

You guys all said, "this is a deus ex machina" weapon, and cheap win, cheap win. But it's not. The actual struggle is within Bern herself.

Think of Bern in modern terms. Bern is like someone who in today's society would refuse to compete with others on the grounds that somewhere, someone is more deserving of that job, and probably would starve without it. So in a competitive work environment, they always lose. Nevermind that they may actually be the most deserving, the only way it happens is in a super-corporation that hires tons of people, and they work to keep their job (results may vary). Now, you have outsiders looking in at her, and they're like "she has no guts" or that she expects a job to fall into her lap. Nah, it's not like this.

Bern is a pacifist. She doesn't mind cutting off arms, because a person can still technically live with just one arm. But she wants to, if at all possible (maybe not), avoid seriously hurting people. She also can't stand the idea of competing gladiator style. That said, I don't pin her as a morally stupid person. She'd be (mostly) okay with someone else doing killing, it's her personal oath. She also would be okay with fighting as cooperation, as in, if she could talk the thug in front of her into it, it possibly wouldn't matter that he is the worst sort of criminal. She would work with him to try to escape this place.

Bern needs to adapt to survive, same as the thug. However, she wants to do it without compromising her dearly-held beliefs. So she will need to adjust her fighting style to win without being ashamed later. This is why this battle is taking a long time, despite having a powerful sword, she has the mentality of Kenshin Himura, without a sword that automatically is blunt edged. Given that the swords seem to absorb somehow, maybe using moves that are simultaneous attack and blocks will be effective. Or something else. Bern will need to do what she needs to to survive. But I do not believe this is what she needs to, or Bern would be a warrior like everyone else. Bern is Bern.

 
« Last Edit: May 13, 2015, 05:18:14 pm by bulmabriefs144 »
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #219 on: May 15, 2015, 06:38:19 am »
Careful there Bern.. assuming he is 'just' going for your legs is also a trap... be fluid and ready to counter a multitude of attack strategies.

A swordsman who thinks he knows all his opponent is up to is limiting his own options and makes himself predictable... be spontaneous... never let the enemy know what you think by just reacting to what he shows you of his strategy. 

That's how I struck my teacher in our last training fight... I made him think I was doing one thing when in fact.. I was doing something entirely different! :)
"...no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free.  No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything - you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is Kill him." - Robert A. Heinlein

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #220 on: May 15, 2015, 01:07:49 pm »
Nah. He's going for her legs.  ;D Now that Bern knows, she need to go for HIS legs by cutting them off like she did his arm, then let's see how he'll react wiggling on the ground...  8)

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #221 on: May 16, 2015, 10:54:13 am »
The way the fight now develops makes clear this is not a Deus Ex Machina-Weapon. As I put forward somewhere earlier Bernadette with her weapons was a too big threat to the current foes - and as such they lost easily (and due to surprise; they expected her to be a push-over when facing three A-rank (or S-rank) enemies). Bernadette would have to face stronger enemies later in the story against whom she'd not as easily win due to her eqiupment being superious and she'd have to fight and adapt.

We got too see how powerful the swords comnined with her fighting style are, now the real show starts: one of the foes *did* survive the initial surprise and he's now showing what it takes to "could fight S-ranked matches". He is strong and has a powerful weapon, but he is an adapting fighter.

He does just that, he adapts to Bernadette and forcing her to rely on something else but her +5 Swords of Defense (or whatever you want to call those things). This fight is going to be interesting, probably with both involved characters.

As for "why" is he still fighting to the last breath: I can very well imagine two reasons.
A) he does have a warriors honor or at least resolve, he wants to surive. At least he does not want to be at the mercy of a foe he does not know and as such attempts to go through with it, as much as he can. HE does not know her, does not know how far she would go, he only knows she "needs the credit, as everyone else around here". Going on as long as he can is not a stupid decision.

B) we know the people running the arena can be quite mean when it comes to putting pressure on people (and Warden does that as well, as we have seen). It is not impossible they told those fighters "You're in for a fun-fight. You'll easily win against this women, smash her good for entertainment. But in case you lose... well, you better. not. lose. You'd get downranked/your credit will get voided if you lose!" and as such they had all the incentive to pressure. If Warden judged Bernadette right (which she probably did) she knew that Bernadette would try to negotiate her way out or let everyone go who surrenders are talks about a draw, so she made sure from the beginning the intended foes would press her as much as possible and not talk to her, not take any deals and mercy from her.

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #222 on: May 16, 2015, 04:50:14 pm »
In all likelihood, the criminal justice system is run by three different corporations:

The entertainment industry vso to speak (remember those three things she could do?)

The arena.

And the prison.

All three are effectively money making operations, as in, the prison system reduces marks, but the real goal is the work program. The workers are working effectively for free, the owner is making all the profit (it might even be rigged so food and board adds marks). We've seen the arena and the sort of emotional pressure they can exrt on people. And the entertainment industry is kinda sick.

In other words, warden probably was like "just one battle and you're free" to these guys. These guys are probably in a bad position because they are too strong for weaker but too weak for S rank, so theyre stuck. So they entered the battle thinking it was a way out, but the warden placed odds on her. Best  thing that can happen is that this guy can wake her up to that this whole thing is a rigged game, and they can put their heads together.

Nah, screw it. This guy talks about pride. But how can you talk about pride, when you think lethal force, and three against one are decent tactics? That you use cheap garbage like kicking sand in people's faces? If this were a cooking competition, and they spiked the food, would they call these winners? Or cheaters? Bern's pride comes from her friends. Her family. And faith in her skill and her standards. Her pride is precisely what won't allow her to sink to his level. And she'll win, fair and square (the swords seem cheap, but they are only as good as she is). Whatever feints or deceptions he uses, she'll shrug them off and keep going. They may be alot alike. But she can do this, and I believe in her.  She can talk to this guy after she's defeated him.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2015, 05:15:01 pm by bulmabriefs144 »
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #223 on: May 18, 2015, 12:07:13 am »
So Bern's worked out his current tactic - now to work out a counter. I wonder if she could use one blade to halt the progress of the remainder of his weapon while using the other to cut off the stub, thus leaving him with the hilt only, and in subsequent moves progressively shorten the hilt?

At that point, she'd almost certainly need to bash his forehead with the flat of her blades to knock him out, as in hand-to-hand combat his size would have a huge advantage over her.

bulmabriefs144

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #224 on: May 18, 2015, 03:36:17 am »
Or just hand over hand scissors attack (they seem to charge the other when the one blocks, so she could probably keep cutting) until the guy has nothing left to hold. Then kick him in the balls, and walk off.  ;D

(Alternatively, once he loses his weapon because he's extending forward he's off balance, and she can just pull her weapon back and hit tennis racquet style with the flat of her sword)

That will put a quick end to his "pride".

In terms of size advantage, basically as we picked up from that punch, any attack he throws is converted into energy. Sorta Kirby Right Back At Ya deal going on (sorry, all I could think of at the moment). The big advantage he has now over her is reach, he has  one fist and one staff, and he could potentially switch things up to play with her ability to dodge. The fact that the weapon is now a stub works in his favor too, as attack can come from virtually any direction. Hands and feet have a predictable reach gap where they overlap at different points, giving her advantage.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2015, 03:49:07 am by bulmabriefs144 »
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #225 on: May 18, 2015, 07:45:36 am »
I see his "pride" in the most negative form: His pride he has won so far. His pride in his skill which lets him win. His pride not to admit to defeat and weakness.

He is not understanding he has to compromise or should surrender or even take a less aggressive approach in fighting Bernadette because his pride won't let him, it forces him to attack to win.

Bernadette has a much more modest pride, I'd call it more "respect for others" and "self respect" than the "pride" her current foe shows.

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #226 on: May 18, 2015, 08:39:43 am »
So Bern's worked out his current tactic - now to work out a counter. I wonder if she could use one blade to halt the progress of the remainder of his weapon while using the other to cut off the stub, thus leaving him with the hilt only, and in subsequent moves progressively shorten the hilt?

At that point, she'd almost certainly need to bash his forehead with the flat of her blades to knock him out, as in hand-to-hand combat his size would have a huge advantage over her.

Well... as I was taught.. if an opponent in a sword fight sticks with only probing fast strikes with little or no force behind them... counterstrike and make him pay for it!  Light probing strikes are fairly easy to deflect... at the 'slight' advantage of being fast... but they carry little threat... unless they are {as I suspect beam-boy is trying}... to get you to block so your weapon is out of ready to really defend when a truly full force attack comes~ likely from an opposite direction. 

There are two schools of thought to deal with this...

Either just keep dodging and avoiding their swings letting them tire themselves out with a bunch of low threat attacks, parrying only when they actually make a serious attempt... and waiting for their foolish probing attacks to leave an opening in their own defenses then move in for the kill with series of powerful counterstrikes.  As usual never more than three or four counter attacks to keep yourself from getting into a predictable pattern of strikes than can be countered~ in return.

Or... let them make a couple probing attacks and immediately go on the offensive with a couple of powerful parries to bat their weapon out of ready {since they have been foolish enough to not put any force behind their strikes} so they cannot easily recover to defend or Counter attack and hit them HARD!  Again, no more than 3 or 4 attacks so an effective counter strike is hard to muster on their part.

In this instance destroying more of his weapon in a series of counter strikes would be a reasonable adjustment of either tactic to again cut down on his reach and making him have to expose his very cutable flesh to counterstrikes on Bern's part.

One thing Bern should also be aware of is when an enemy is seemingly sticking to attack in one direction... that usually means they are setting up to attack in the opposite direction eventually... if they are any good and not just a 'noob' at this sword-fighting thing.  Clearly.. this guy is no novice!  So that means Bern should be careful not fall into the trap of lessening her defenses in any particular location or side/front of attack... simply because he is not attacking from that side/front.  ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS maintain good form and keep your blade in the ready zone of your stance... so you can be prepared and not off-balance or out of position to counter from any front or side.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2015, 08:41:35 am by sunphoenix »
"...no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free.  No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything - you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is Kill him." - Robert A. Heinlein

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #227 on: May 18, 2015, 11:24:43 am »
Quote
So Bern's worked out his current tactic - now to work out a counter. I wonder if she could use one blade to halt the progress of the remainder of his weapon while using the other to cut off the stub, thus leaving him with the hilt only, and in subsequent moves progressively shorten the hilt?

At that point, she'd almost certainly need to bash his forehead with the flat of her blades to knock him out, as in hand-to-hand combat his size would have a huge advantage over her.

Anyone else feeling a whole Yin-Yang vibe here? The more we want Bern to adapt here, the more he instead adapts. The more we want her to find a way to counter, the more she does. Not to mention the whole twin swords thing, and her being defense/him being attack.

Couldn't she lead with one sword, extending it out to block the attack, and sweep with the other? Urgh, but it's not her strength, it's his! I would call leading with the sword a good technique (blocks both, and he has to make a new attack), except that it probably always takes the last sword attack into account.

In all likelihood, option two is a no-go, since it seems like the swords are not designed to use her strength, they absorb kinetic energy from their target. In all likelihood, if she attacks first, they might deal no damage. Which would be disastrous, as it would tell an already savvy fighter way too much about her.

Option 1 would be a good option, but for the fact that she currently has a bum leg and can't do her patented perfect dodge.

Since both options are out, option 3 would be psychological warfare! Use the fact that he seems to be fixated on his pride and being a winner to egg him on into attacking with force. If he does something sloppy because he gets mad or impatient, he's basically defeated himself. That said, I have never seen Bern use psychological warfare, and I'm not sure she even knows how to taunt.

Alternatively, she learns to study him and figure out his attacks. And block one handed. Given that it's his force, she doesn't likely need more than that, so she can use the other to multitask, countering only when he uses force. It might slow things to a crawl however, so she she use her time to figure out his style.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2015, 11:39:07 am by bulmabriefs144 »
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #228 on: May 19, 2015, 09:29:51 am »
{Shrug}... in her position... I'd attack.  I'm a man of peace... yes, but if I have to draw steel to defend my life or the lives of others.. I'm no longer a pacifist.  My teacher was quite adamant on this point... "If you draw a live steel sword on someone.. make no equivocation on the matter.. you intend to use lethal force and kill.  Otherwise you should not have drawn the sword in the first place... and are disrespecting the gravity of the choice you just made!  Draw to kill or don't draw at all!"

So, I'd attack his good arm let him throw his weak probing attacks.. I'd parry and immediately counter with a strike to his arm.  Or I'd keep moving and strike at his armless side where he can't easily defend. 
"...no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free.  No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything - you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is Kill him." - Robert A. Heinlein

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #229 on: May 20, 2015, 12:53:02 pm »
I have a bad feeling about this... I hope he's not going to out-smart her

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #230 on: May 20, 2015, 01:55:51 pm »
I have a bad feeling about this... I hope he's not going to out-smart her

Yep, 'When you think you know exactly what the opponent is going to do.. that's the time to be doubly wary that YOU are not fooling yourself into reacting just the way your opponent wants you to!'

You don't have to block or parry every swing or attack some big bruiser with a Gurren Laggan / GUNDAM 'hat-fetish' and a big 'broken' club makes at you!  Always the best defense that leaves you the most options is.. just don't be where he's swinging.  If you 'THINK' your certain that's what he's doing~ just don't be there!
"...no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free.  No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything - you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is Kill him." - Robert A. Heinlein

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #231 on: May 20, 2015, 05:30:12 pm »
She's not so much "thinking she knows what he's gonna do," so much as watching his body movements. As long as she keeps her eye on him, and moves her sword, even if he tries to fake her out, she can still react. That's what reading an enemy is. That said, she picked an awfully late time to start, since she needs to simultaneously figure out how best to use the swords, while reading him, meaning even if his movements are correctly predicted, if she moves her swords wrong, it could blow up in her face.

I think she should adjust her style to block with the back sword, and dodge his weapon at the last second with the leading sword (throwing all the force into the blocking sword. It is probably easier to add power late than pull punches at the last second. If she can randomly alternate which sword blocks, she keeps him guessing and has an advantage.

I was on TvTropes on the FlipSide page, and I saw this. Kinda cracked me up.



May is Maytag Month.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2015, 05:42:51 pm by bulmabriefs144 »
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #232 on: May 22, 2015, 01:30:11 am »
Well now. Let's see what the big fella's going to do now...

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #233 on: May 22, 2015, 04:50:49 am »
Guys, I'm not sure I can keep reading this comic. I should be thrilled for Bern, but... I'm not.

I'm not really cheering for the other guy, either, because he's a bully. I just plain hate this battle, and that it's dragging on like this.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2015, 05:01:17 am by bulmabriefs144 »
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #234 on: May 22, 2015, 05:48:05 am »
Each to his own Miss Briefs... but I personally like seeing Bernedette on the offensive for once! :)

Guess he underestimated her will to not be underated.  If that blow was fatal.. he possibly still could be saved with magic... {shrug}...

I don't think the big guy was a bully.. he never gloated over any hit he made on her .. he saw her as a true challenge for his skill and power someone who had finally pushed him to his limits... and beyond.  If he survives... there is no reason they might not be friends.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2015, 05:56:16 am by sunphoenix »
"...no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free.  No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything - you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is Kill him." - Robert A. Heinlein

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #235 on: May 22, 2015, 05:48:12 am »
But here's the thing. We've adapted to culture past the Code of Hammurabi. Most of us don't even know that culture existed. I wear the hamsa however, which dates back to around this era (along with its ties to, well, practically every religion including Islam, Judaism, Buddhism).

At the very least, we have heard from Gandhi and others "an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."

Okay, sure, people like this guy can try to satisfy their blood debts. And that's fine, this is a free world.

But being a free world, isn't the hope we live for that people don't have to live like this? That Bern has a choice? That's what she's fighting for. Heh, a warrior for kindness.

That said, Bern's gone from frightened to pissed. Look at the very beginning of this battle and this. Likely she's gonna knock him across the room.

Just because people don't know what the code is, does not mean we've adapted past it.

Killing does not equal murder, and that is still in effect today.

Bern however isn't murdering anyone, she's killing in self defense.  It's really the only way she can survive in a prison system that has an arena for people's amusement and even with the arena's no killing "rule" she was told it was lifted just for her.

As for the latest comic, wow...I'm really just surprised that Polly and the guard/rank tester (forgot exact name of her) have any look of surprise on their faces.  They both say they know how talented she is at fighting, so why look shocked when they know how awesome she can be? :p

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #236 on: May 22, 2015, 05:55:29 am »
{snip}

...

As for the latest comic, wow...I'm really just surprised that Polly and the guard/rank tester (forgot exact name of her) have any look of surprise on their faces.  They both say they know how talented she is at fighting, so why look shocked when they know how awesome she can be? :p

I don't think it was exactly shock... but its still quite a spectacle to see a master martial artist perform feats in an exhibition.  Yeah, you mentally know, "ok yeah, he's a 10th Dan Kung Fu master..."; but its STILL a shock to see him demonstrate WHY he is called 'master'! :)

But notice.. the Warden was not shocked at all!  She's either a very cool killer all in her own right... or she knows something that no one else does... then again.. probably both!
« Last Edit: May 22, 2015, 05:58:53 am by sunphoenix »
"...no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free.  No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything - you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is Kill him." - Robert A. Heinlein

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #237 on: May 22, 2015, 07:10:35 am »
Quote
Guys, I'm not sure I can keep reading this comic. I should be thrilled for Bern, but... I'm not.

I'm not really cheering for the other guy, either, because he's a bully. I just plain hate this battle, and that it's dragging on like this.

I don't blame you. I don't think this chapter is necessarily a mistake, though. This chapter definitely has a "monty hall" feel, but that's not unheard of in a comic book series, and an enchanted weapon  or artifact alluded to earlier in a story is common in fantasy. Normally it results in a very powerful, impressive presentation, and it can be against overwhelming odds, its supposed to be satisfying as we cheer the character on, and wish to see more of the weapon/artifact/tool can do, where we can then see more of its strengths and how they compliment the fighter, or if we take a more storybook route, its weaknesses, or what happens should the fighter rely on them too much. These are all viable options in the Flipside-verse, right now.

So why is this not flashy and fun? That's ultimately, at least in my opinion, the biggest point to showing off such weapons, unless the point is to create such a contrast with crippling weakness later. Why is The Indomitable Blades, part II, such a "tedious, dragging on scene" when so many people wanted to get to the fight, already?

Because The Indomitable Blades, part I, did one of the worst things it possibly could to a protagonist: it made her unlikeable. (Edit: Just a warning guys, this is insanely long)

The naive protagonist is not a new concept, not even close. There are tons of characters like that, and many of them quite successful; consider ironic characters like Frodo Baggins or Luke Skywalker. When it came to the world beyond their own, both of them were ultimately clueless, or naive, or both. That's not to say a competent character can't be important; someone like Aragorn could fit this bill quite nicely. I don't think even combining the two is necessarily a problem. I think a lot of us felt really bad for Bern when she was begging for directions on the streets of Marvallo, scowled at the high price of healing and the healer's crass treatment of both her and the father, and some of us probably cheered when she whipped out her blades and asserted her own dominance. I'm sure some people were critical, or didn't get why Bern would do so much for a drunk that she barely knew, but I remember the reception to what Bern did at least being, overall, positive.

But then we get to the Colosseum, and here's where it becomes a problem. The thing with the earlier example in Marvallo is that Bern was, ultimately, treated unfairly by a cruel, uncaring world. Legality won over morality, or at least, the reader's perception of morality. However, in the arena itself, Bern refuses to fight because of her own perception of morality. To fight simply to entertain and earn her freedom is something she refuses to do. Still fine so far, fits the naive, albeit technically competent protagonist.

However, there are two very, very, big problems with this. One is the fact that Blackbird is here, period. This makes Bern's desire to not fight, at all costs, come off as extremely selfish, not just in terms of being a bad teammate, although that is certainly there, but also because of the fact that she ultimately is taking the stance that by not fighting, she is putting herself and her moralities above every single fighter in the fighter in the Colosseum, including the woman who sacrificed her freedom to mitigate Bernadette's punishment. The second problem, and ultimately, the bigger problem, is the fact that the Colosseum comes off as...pretty fair, honestly. Yes, when we're introduced, it was portrayed as a place in the middle of transition, with a leader that used to enjoy raping women, with several protestors lining up against them, but beyond that, on screen, what has the Colosseum done that's actually wrong? Bern didn't fight the warden during her application, and let her teammates do all the work, so they didn't want to give Bern a chance to fight for her freedom (not even that bad, they just placed heavy restrictions on her right to fight and cancelled her fights for that week), because she refused to fight in the first place. Those are pretty reasonable consequences for Bern's actions. No one's being unfair in this situation, really, but Bern.

Then we get to "the talk" with Bernadette and Warden. Warden is fair, and realizes Bern is a much better fighter than she is, but lacks the "warrior's spirit", or at least, the warrior's spirit as fits the arena. Long story short, she gives Bernadette an ultimatum, Bern accepts, and allows Polly to once again throw herself under the bus for our protagonist. This makes Bernadette even more selfish, and even more unlikeable, by again placing her own perception of morality to not fight, even for her freedom--or to see Maytag again. So right now, Bern has been portrayed as selfish, ignorant, not a team player, and a whiner.

As a plot device, this could work very well if it bit her in the ass, but it doesn't, because next is the deathmatch. Because the three fighters are facing her in an unfair fight (and possibly the only unfair part of the arena we've actually seen so far), we're put in a situation where Bernadette either has to rise above this, and gain much despite her selfish, indecisive actions, or die. Several pages of the legendary twin swords of uber pwnage later, and we have Bern more than likely victorious, and we have two chapters that are probably the worst two in the entire series, and chapters that should have made Bern take a level in badass, and stand firm against a cruel, uncaring world, and be the hero, ends up portarying her more as a Mary Sue type that gets bailed out whenever there's a problem. What should have been one of the most satisfying arcs has become very unsatisfying.

Why? Honestly...the Colosseum was fair. The organizer didn't treat Bern any differently than his other fighters, and war concerned for his business, that he is trying to reform (even if to just save his own neck), and the Warden is more than reasonable, especially by Marvallo standards. I personally don't think this chapter coming to play earlier than intended is the problem, because i think the damage was done in the scenes I outlined earlier. Bernadette could have had her perspective change in this cruel world, and still be a noble, selfless fighter: she simply needed to change the means she did this. She could have even flat out regretted the blood she shed after adapting to the Colosseum, thrust her swords into the ground, declaring "never again", and walk off. Then Bern could have started questioning herself and what she was doing and why she was fighting, and I think we as readers would sympathize with her plight more.

Or, if we wanted to go with this "rise above the arena" thing, that could actually have worked. However, for this to work, the Colosseum needed to be unfair, even if it was unfair to everyone. The organizer's intro was fine, and the notion of Blackbird kicking ass for Bern could also work. The two of them being separated works. At this point, we really should have seen more about the Colosseum being cruel, callous, and flat out negligent.

Some people said, in jest, that Bern should have gotten raped/sex slave, etc. Honestly? In all seriousness, it could've helped this arc. However, I don't mean by route of option A: One of the other prisoners should have done it, or better, one of the guards in the Colosseum. Bern should have been traumatized, as early as possible, into this arc, and we should have seen it. This would make the reader's sympathize with Bern, and it would give her a reason beyond her own personal morality to not want to play "these barbaric games", severe trauma can do a lot, and whittling away at someone's courage or decisive nature are generally considered to be among those things. This would also make Option A a lot more repulsive, and maybe even trigger some level of trauma for Bern, and make us sympathize more with her: our poor hero was already raped once, why should we want her to put herself through that again? This also makes Polly's decision look a hell of a lot more heroic, and really drives the sinister nature of the Colosseum home. It doesn't have to be rape, the Colosseum simply needs to be brutal and unfair, but because of Bernadette's views of sex and violence, the question of rape certainly hits her, in my opinion on a moral level as well as a physical and emotional one, it certainly makes us sympathize for her, it justifies her indecision, her crying, her loathing of the arena, and it paints her as a victim. Then she gets set up for the deathmatch, tricked, traumatized, and guilty that Polly sacrificed herself to protect her, and then the swords bail her out until she finds her own confidence again, her own strength, and she manages to defeat True Strike in the iconic perfect counter that we know her for. She stays true to her morals, becomes stronger for holding onto who she is, and demonstrates the great power behind these swords, and everything she did was now worth it as she is much closer to completing her quest.

I think that's what Brion is going for, but going back to the reader's perspective of morality, all we see, on screen, is Bern not being a team player, and the only reason we see is that she thinks she's above the Colosseum's games, and again, this is primarily a problem because the Colosseum, before the slaughter match, has been more or less fair. That makes Bern herself look unreasonable, and when there are no consequences for that kind of mentality for the hero, it makes her very unlikeable, regardless of how good she's been in the past.

God, that was longer than I intended. I do apologize. I'm not some award winning author, but based on my experience in reading and at least dabbling in writing, that's my perspective.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2015, 07:12:08 am by IronSoul »

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #238 on: May 22, 2015, 09:18:22 am »
^ I kind of agree. I also don't see the point of Polly being here; all she did so far was made her look bad. And if I remember correctly, it was Polly who insisted she took this route (Colosseum). So if anything I despise Polly more.  I hope somewhere along the line this will all make sense though. I am curious what is going to happen with that "deal". I have a feeling that this is not going to be it for Bern.
But I don't really agree that it's a fair place. They allow super enchanted weapons and sorcery. The "aptitude test" was about using your shitty old school weapon to stand up to this super enchanted chain thing. Old school weapon means you automatically go into C/D rank or get killed cause you stand no chance against Warden (see first guy who attacked vs. Polly with her fancy magic ball).
So from this point of view Bern's swords are really not overpowered, she just received the proper weapons for this place.

« Last Edit: May 22, 2015, 09:22:50 am by monimoni »

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #239 on: May 22, 2015, 11:22:43 am »
Quote
^ I kind of agree. I also don't see the point of Polly being here; all she did so far was made her look bad. And if I remember correctly, it was Polly who insisted she took this route (Colosseum). So if anything I despise Polly more.  I hope somewhere along the line this will all make sense though. I am curious what is going to happen with that "deal". I have a feeling that this is not going to be it for Bern.

If I remember correctly, Polly advocated the Colosseum, but the Enforcers also made it a condition if Polly were to take half of Bern's marks.

Quote
But I don't really agree that it's a fair place. They allow super enchanted weapons and sorcery. The "aptitude test" was about using your shitty old school weapon to stand up to this super enchanted chain thing. Old school weapon means you automatically go into C/D rank or get killed cause you stand no chance against Warden (see first guy who attacked vs. Polly with her fancy magic ball).
So from this point of view Bern's swords are really not overpowered, she just received the proper weapons for this place.

That's true, though the use of enchanted weapons could also speak, in part, of the business at large. Flashy, powerful weapons in the hands of vicious warriors probably gets more paying customers than three common criminals going at it. Most people with a common weapon probably have less marks to pay than someone with such a dangerous weapon as well. It's harsh on C and D ranked "common" criminals, but it would also largely discourage crime, wouldn't it?

But to consider your argument from your perspective...perhaps fair is not the optimal word. The Colosseum has the prison feel with the poor beds and the barred cells, at least for the D rank "quarters", but nothing else to really suggest this is a brutal place to be outside of the arena. I doubt it's comfortable, but it's not a special kind of brutal that gives Bern a reason to really hate this place outside of "I don't want to fight for the amusement of others", thing. It's not sinister enough, if that's a better word. Something like this to portray Bern as the justified hero needs more brutality in their treatment, or skeletons in the closet. Think about The Running Man, as an example, if anyone remembers that now.