Author Topic: Chapter 43: Discussion  (Read 62842 times)

sunphoenix

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #180 on: April 30, 2015, 01:34:09 pm »
Wow I don't see it like that at all. Let's back up a bit. Bernadette was going to take either option A and B, mutilating herself or whoring herself instead of picking the "easy" option C - only not to torture and kill somebody else. It was Polly who got in the way, nobody asked her to do that - and she made it so that it was impossible for Bernadette to outbid her.

Now about her father... Bernadette is in this crap in the first place because she sacrificed her own freedom to save her father's life. She went to this place for the sword in the first place. I think it is more than perfectly square that her father showed up with the swords.
I really don't see how Bernadette is being a leech...

{Shrug}...

'Haters... gonna hate.'

But seriously, we simply have a difference of opinions on the matter.  'From a certain point of view...', ANYTHING Bernadette does or does not do.. can be misconstrued or twisted to fit any criticism .. if that is all one WANTS to see. 

The same can be said for those who approve of her actions... like me, cause she's a hottie, red-head, bad ass...! :)

So.. let's just agree to disagree on this... and leave it at that.
"...no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free.  No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything - you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is Kill him." - Robert A. Heinlein

monimoni

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #181 on: May 01, 2015, 02:22:16 am »
Actually to be honest I am not sure what the point of Polly's intervention was, and where that's going. This is where I don't agree with the "Bern is a leech" idea. She was never a leech... there's just this character Polly, making her look like that. If Warden would've ignored Polly, Bern had the chance to show the integrity she talks about.. that would've been a real test for her. But I guess we will soon find out.

bulmabriefs144

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #182 on: May 01, 2015, 05:23:45 am »
Ignore this troll. Supposedly Bern is a leech for having friends.

This unfortunately reflects something I've felt about myself all my life, that because I was scraping by, and needed food stamps, or that because I was close to my family versus being some full-time businessperson, that I was doing something inferior. But you know what? It's time to stop hating people for not  conforming to your narrow idea of success. In this world, there are people who make a living at a job outside their house. There are also people like authors and eBay sellers, that make money at their home. There are also people who make money through sex trade, not just through prostitution but through legal dating for pay sites. There are people like the Travelers (gypsies) who have no fixed home. There are religious groups that go door to door.

There are many realities of life. That Bern is somehow not facing reality because she doesn't sell out to your opinion of life... Of course, she needs to stop playing around and accept that swords can't block magic. Wonderful idea. Maybe you'd like to apologize when she gets burnt to a cinder because she refused to draw her swords because reality is that people compete and magic swords aren't real. Uhhh you're confusing reality show with reality. In a reality show, the winner of a contest wins a truck, and nobody else is considered. In reality, the loser of the contest might use their own methods to get a truck.

Now I'm gonna talk about change and growth. Bern has clearly been developing and growing through this entire battle. But because she hasn't adapted to this fighting you are unhappy. Not all change is desirable. You think it would be awesome to see her go all bloodthirsty but this isn't who she is, and this place is sick. Normal people fight to survive. Crazed people ruthlessly fight even people who are not a threat to them, like a big lawyer coming down hard on some small rural entrepreneur because country people don't deserve to be successful. She is making it work, so you rule it's a "cheat" because she couldn't possibly be successful without doing whatever method you think is the only approved one. Except she did. And she won. Give it a rest already.

In terms of change being bad, we routinely think being at the top of a corporate ladder is the  ideal of success. Is it? We have a small businessman who has work-life balance. He has the girl, he has a steady job, and he has friends and hobbies. There's an offer to go to the city where he would leave all of that behind for more money in the short term (but the job is highly competitive and will probably fire him later) so I assume as part growth and change he should naturally take the job according to you.

Bern is not a vampire or a leech. She is a decent person trying to remain a decent person in a climate that is void of decent people (like a person who believes in justice being surrounded by crooked lawyers).
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

SAGG

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #183 on: May 01, 2015, 01:49:22 pm »
Okay, now why does this guy keep coming at Bern? Is it because he'll die if he doesn't? Is he fighting for a beloved relative who will die if he doesn't? Is it because of his warrior pride? Will he go down to Bern's current rank if he surrenders? And I don't like Bern's statement, which scares the bejibbens out of me!  :P Makes me wonder if this guy doesn't have something up his sleeve to pull out an impossible victory...?

bulmabriefs144

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #184 on: May 01, 2015, 03:04:31 pm »
I admire his persistence. However, I wish he'd leave her alone.

Whatever he's been promised or threatened with, I think I'd rather see her help him with it, than put him down like a rabid dog or something.

Everyone deserves their dreams, including him. It is sick that these two have to compete to the death for not even what they want, but what they need.
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

Silverdrake

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #185 on: May 02, 2015, 03:06:12 am »
You people are unbelievable. There's a disagreement between us how to see the character Bernadette and because it's disagreement it's down to "trolling" and "haters gonna hate". There seems to be an excessive assumption the world works in "Black and White": I don't dislike the character Bernadette, I don't hate her. She is a great character, she is just doing things here where I disagree to what you think. Reducing what I wrote to "she is a leech because she has friends" is something I consider unworthy to answer.

So, as long as you agree Bernadette is "awesome in all regards" you can even bluntly state it is "because she is a female, red-headed hottie" besides any actual reasons or psycological interpretations or character interpretations within the scope of the story. You have your stance because all the wrong reasons, which, to me, invalidates this stances completely.

Yeah, think of me as trolling or hating. I thought this was a smart forum but apparently it's just the same male "Hot Chicks are awesome because they are hot chicks" you're finding everywhere on the internet. I'll go on enjoying Flipside (as well as Bernadette and her character arc)... you are free to drool because she's drawn scantly clothed and dismiss any disagreement with your assessment as "trolling"... Flipside is smarter than that and I had hoped the readers drawn to it would be as well. I admit I was wrong in at least a few cases.

Silverdrake

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #186 on: May 02, 2015, 03:16:10 am »
Ignore this troll. Supposedly Bern is a leech for having friends.

I already stated this was unworthy of an answer.

Quote
Now I'm gonna talk about change and growth. Bern has clearly been developing and growing through this entire battle. But because she hasn't adapted to this fighting you are unhappy. Not all change is desirable. You think it would be awesome to see her go all bloodthirsty but this isn't who she is, and this place is sick.

Not my assessment is what is the issue here, it is your interpretation of what I want. This is not what I want and I never stated so. You form quick opinions on what people want based on your assumptions what they want without seeing you've went too far down the road and are plain wrong. The rest of your post falls in the same category.

Quote
In terms of change being bad, we routinely think being at the top of a corporate ladder is the  ideal of success. Is it?

I don't. You're assumption to be able to and eagerness to lecture me on this is what drives you into the wall in regards to this debate.

Quote
Bern is not a vampire or a leech. She is a decent person trying to remain a decent person in a climate that is void of decent people (like a person who believes in justice being surrounded by crooked lawyers).

She is a very decent person, but as I wrote above she is not seeing the reality of what profession she took on. She thinks she can get through with this by staying unbent, but that is a wrong assumption and only leads to others fetching the coals from her fire (without her having asked for that, though). Do I want her to be brutal, merciless, a crazy killer? I already said what I think of that.
Bernadette is ready to die for her believes and this is what she is aiming for here. It is commendable she is willing to go this far but my impression is not that she made that conscious decision.
My impression is that her stance is she'd rather die than to adapt to the arena (which is fine and the moral high ground) but this has not reached her conscious thoughts and she still maintains the illusion that "staying unbent" is a path that leads her through the arena (or her life). She is wrong in regards to that and it is others around her who enable her to maintain this high ground.
If she'd actively life "I rather die than adept, Polly, please, let me do this" it was different.
But she's willing to die - and pull everyone with her. Not because she is a bad person or does it on purpose, but because she has not realised that, in effect, that is what she is doing.

Now, come on, call me a troll and hater... only because I disagree on what to make of Bernadettes stance here.

Brion Foulke

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #187 on: May 02, 2015, 03:06:52 pm »
Here's an example of some things I'd like you to not do in this forum:

Don't call people names like "troll" just because they disagree with you. (bulmabriefs144)

Don't antagonize people with posts like "this response is not worthy if a reply."  (Silverdrake)

It's okay to have passionate opinions, just be careful not to attack other forum goers.  And if you feel attacked, PM me about it or just turn the other cheek, rather than escalating things in the forum.  Thanks, I would appreciate it.

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #188 on: May 02, 2015, 07:04:55 pm »
Unless Mr. I-Beam's been promised his freedom by beating Bern to death, I'm having a hard time seeing how he can justify going to such lengths to try and beat her down. Further, he's not really doing it in an intelligent or rational manner. He's just panicking and trying all sorts of random stuff to see what works.

He's lost. It would be better for everyone if he puts his weapon down and surrenders. He keeps going like this, he WILL die, and Bern will most likely be punished for it.

Enkida

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #189 on: May 04, 2015, 03:11:54 am »
Hmm.  Just for the record, I love Bernadette.  I think she's a hottie.  Although her stance on nude artwork rubs me the wrong way, of all the characters in this comic (excepting perhaps Crest, I have to think about that) her strict moral compass is exactly the reason I like her the most.  I know this makes me in a minority of the (vocal) readership, as most fans seem to think of Maytag and her swinging fanservice lifestyle as the be-all-end-all of cool, flexible behaviour.  I do in fact think of these two ladies as opposite ends of a pole, and yet they still love one another, which for me is a very positive message and sort of the meta-point of this comic since Book 0 - why I still read it.

I wanted to establish that as background so you can have some context when I say this:

I find myself agreeing with Silverdrake on Bernadette's character development.  Given what we know of her so far, my biggest surprise on this whole arc is what a wet towel she's been, especially before it led to the point of actual fighting in the arena.  Her fighting style is based on predicting and blocking the movements of others.  That she couldn't do this psychologically at all since arriving in - where is it? - Marvallo? - and meeting up with Polly has me shaking my head.  The Bernadette established in this comic would have kicked Polly's ass - literally, to shut her up - and gotten her eye removed, before letting things escalate to this point.  Yes, I know we need to see the swords in action.  But as a Bernadette fan, I am still left unsatisfied with her choices and behaviour.

What happened to this woman? I don't know where she went.

« Last Edit: May 04, 2015, 03:39:38 am by Enkida »
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bulmabriefs144

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #190 on: May 04, 2015, 04:58:35 am »
(Post removed by moderator.  I said I wanted name calling to stop, which includes justifying it.  Unless you're posting a straight apology, please don't bring it up anymore.)
« Last Edit: May 04, 2015, 10:06:32 am by Brion Foulke »
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

Brion Foulke

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #191 on: May 04, 2015, 10:12:07 am »
That's fair, Enkida.  I think that you are just seeing her character differently than how I see her as the writer.  You were given the impression that she was tough as steel, and while I do think she is tough I also think that she has a bit of weakness on the inside.  I think this gives her more humanity.  That's not to say that she won't overcome problems, but it seems more natural for it to be a struggle. 

Pinkk

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #192 on: May 04, 2015, 10:34:31 am »
I admire his persistence. However, I wish he'd leave her alone.

Whatever he's been promised or threatened with, I think I'd rather see her help him with it, than put him down like a rabid dog or something.

Everyone deserves their dreams, including him. It is sick that these two have to compete to the death for not even what they want, but what they need.

Why would you assume he deserves his dreams?  He is in prison and most likely not for the same reason as Bern.

Now they could just let them sit in prison and rot all day, but they're a very profit passed society.  You can't even get directions without paying a fee.  So far, no evidence seems to support the three Bern went up against were nothing more than real criminals committing crimes against innocent people.

Bern obviously believes people should do good for goods sake.  It's why she's in prison.  She forced someone to do something they didn't want to do, because Bern wanted them saved but didn't have the money to get her father the medical attention.

With Bern, there's at least a moral grey area.  With the three other combatants, there could be, but likely less so.  The prison is probably very much filled with very bad people.

bulmabriefs144

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #193 on: May 04, 2015, 11:27:46 am »
(Fair enough. I don't really want to talk to him anyway, even to apologize)

I would assume people deserve their dreams because I have the experience of doing desperate things to achieve one's dreams. Having tried to do prostitution to make ends meet (ironically enough, it was around the time that Bern got her choices; not a prostitute now, it took one time and I was like "nope"), I know that some people do very extreme stuff to try to make their dreams happen. Theft, murder, whatever. I'm not qualified to judge them.

Also because of Once Upon A Time where the villains are less outright evil, and more pathetic and selfish.

In all likelihood, there is very little chance that these people were paragons of virtue. But we cannot assume anything about them without knowing the full story.

-Old man may have gotten teased on too many times because of his age.
-The girl may have grown up in a brothel, and volunteered for this for money (I'm sure some gladiators are paid, if they don't have any marks left, and want to stay)
-The guy could be disgraced military. Or maybe he caught his wife sleeping with someone, and cut them in half.

We don't think they are saints, but dehumanization is how people manage to easily kill one another. There's many sides to a story.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2015, 11:34:44 am by bulmabriefs144 »
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #194 on: May 04, 2015, 11:33:52 am »
Apparently, it IS about warrior pride, one of my guesses. Then again. I guess I'd do the same if I knew I were losing to someone who's supposed to be at the bottom of the barrel, while I'm at the top of the heap. It's--embarrassing and humiliating.  :P It's like Podunk State coming into Tuscaloosa and beating Alabama in college football, and doing it soundly. That's this...  ;D

bulmabriefs144

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #195 on: May 04, 2015, 11:38:22 am »
Yeah, and the really funny thing is, Bern doesn't appear to have pride, warrior or otherwise.  ;D She just fights to stay alive, and defend others.

So it's kinda a contest between big time A/S rank guy who can't let it go that she's beating him, and small time Bern who just wants to go home and doesn't really care if she wins or loses.
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

Pinkk

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #196 on: May 04, 2015, 09:57:19 pm »
Yeah, and the really funny thing is, Bern doesn't appear to have pride, warrior or otherwise.  ;D She just fights to stay alive, and defend others.

So it's kinda a contest between big time A/S rank guy who can't let it go that she's beating him, and small time Bern who just wants to go home and doesn't really care if she wins or loses.

Bern's not a warrior.  She's a knight.  A protector.  Knight doesn't equal warrior. 

mittfh

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #197 on: May 04, 2015, 11:46:08 pm »
I wonder if the rules can recognise a stalemate? He's pretty much lost his girder!sword, so if he continues it's going to be his bare hands versus Bern's blades. I suppose if push came to shove, she could whack him on the forehead with the broadside of the swords and knock him out, while leaving him otherwise uninjured.

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #198 on: May 05, 2015, 05:31:14 am »
What culture does he come from? There are cultures where a Warrior's pride is worth dying for. (Because if you surrender, and let yourself be taken captive by the enemy, your people will kill you as a traitor.) Vikings, some Scot clans, certain Asian countries, etc have or have had this mindset.

It could well be that he comes from such a culture, visited the country, was given some kind of insult to his heritage which requires answer by force, and had to be beat down before being arrested.

That's the kind of vibe I read from him now.

If none of the above is true, he's just a fracking idiot making up excuses as to why he wants to die fighting.

Enkida

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #199 on: May 05, 2015, 11:36:01 am »
I think that you are just seeing her character differently than how I see her as the writer.  You were given the impression that she was tough as steel, and while I do think she is tough I also think that she has a bit of weakness on the inside.  I think this gives her more humanity.  That's not to say that she won't overcome problems, but it seems more natural for it to be a struggle.

See, while I agree that character growth comes from a struggle, I felt you passed over the ripest opportunity for her personal character growth - the part where she faces her struggles with her black and white stance on fidelity and temptation.  That is, her relationship, or lack thereof, with Polly, despite her attraction.  Fighting is all good and well, but that was the more interesting struggle for me, the mental one.

To show it's all good anyhow I did some fanart, LOL.  Please don't laugh too hard, I haven't drawn comic art since 4 or 5 years now  :-X



wanted more of that please, and not just for fanservice ;)
2 kids = no more comics, but you can still find me doing BG portraits now and then

Pinkk

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #200 on: May 05, 2015, 09:46:56 pm »
Here's hoping to not see Bern cheat.  It's actually refreshing to see a character who doesn't cheat and remains faithful.  :p  It's what I love about Bern.

Enkida

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #201 on: May 06, 2015, 02:03:10 am »
Actually, I wouldn't want to see her cheat, either. But I do want to see her facing her problem of seeing things in absolute black and whites.  Nude art must be something sexual (and therefore bad?!).  Bloody Mary hurt someone I cared about, so she must be a Monster.  I'd have to re-read to see what she thinks of cheating - I kind of remember her saying she knew about Maytag cheating on her but stayed with her anyway, during Suspira's bitchy spell reveal moment - but I still get a sense of Bernadette's character being very righteously judgemental sometimes, in a bad way.  I like that she's committed to being a "good person" by however she defines that standard.  There seem to be too few of those in this comic, of the main characters who seem to give off the vibe of wanting to actively be "good guys" I count Bernadette and Crest.  I thought rejecting her dream of becoming a knight to stay with Maytag was a real step in the direction of character growth, away from those judgemental tendencies.  But I haven't seen that sort of growth re: her attitude towards sexuality.  It's complicated I guess - I want to see Bernadette becoming more open-minded and forgiving, but I don't want to see her lose her core values or suddenly be down with engaging in a threesome or whatever.

I don't see that sort of interesting personal growth happening in this arena arc.  If anything, the whole "I can't bend or break!" declaration while Polly was going to the wall for her over there really annoys me.  As I said before, why wasn't she like that in the cell?  It's almost hypocritical to find her resolve now.  When she was fighting Elvis in that enchanted castle, she was ready to give up and die (and let Maytag and the others die too) because her fighting style didn't work, rather than lower her standards and use other people as meatshields to win.  Here, she's a different person.  All she does is lose a little sleep, shed a few guilty tears and get saved by her dad's magic swords, which was apparently all it took to recover her confidence.  I haven't even got the sense that she's taking into account Polly's human shielding, as if she forgot about all of that now that she has the swords.   Of course this chapter isn't over yet, so hopefully I will be eating my words later on.  But I'm still not a happy camper yet.  :P
« Last Edit: May 06, 2015, 02:04:48 am by Enkida »
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Brion Foulke

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #202 on: May 06, 2015, 02:06:38 am »
See, while I agree that character growth comes from a struggle, I felt you passed over the ripest opportunity for her personal character growth - the part where she faces her struggles with her black and white stance on fidelity and temptation.  That is, her relationship, or lack thereof, with Polly, despite her attraction.  Fighting is all good and well, but that was the more interesting struggle for me, the mental one.

That's a bit premature.  Bernadette is far from done in her dealings with Polly.  Or at least, as long as I don't kill Polly off!  (Can't have you thinking I'm predictable!)  Those struggles with fidelity and temptation may or may not happen in the future.

I like the fan art a lot!  Could you email that to me, so that I will be reminded to put that in the gallery?

bulmabriefs144

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #203 on: May 06, 2015, 05:01:17 am »
Yeah, and the really funny thing is, Bern doesn't appear to have pride, warrior or otherwise.  ;D She just fights to stay alive, and defend others.

So it's kinda a contest between big time A/S rank guy who can't let it go that she's beating him, and small time Bern who just wants to go home and doesn't really care if she wins or loses.

Bern's not a warrior.  She's a knight.  A protector.  Knight doesn't equal warrior.

I said that. In my earlier post (that mods saw fit to collapse rather than simply asking me to change)1.

Bern is a knight, so she's not suited for this life. So yea, she doesn't care about warrior pride. And doesn't need to adapt.

As to the other post, I think he's just making up excuses. Swallow your pride, say "okay, it's not really working" and call it a day.

I think the whole "cheat/don't cheat" thing is an example of the very black and white morality that we are criticizing her for. She should talk to Maytag, and they should face this together. Maybe Maytag is okay with an exclusive deal, maybe it'll break the thing up (tad hypocritical), maybe it would be a reason to reconsider the stance on an open relationship. Their love is still developing and growing, and it might be something they can discuss.

I uh might need to ask copyright permission so that I can print this picture out. And place it by my bed. And uhhhh....
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #204 on: May 06, 2015, 07:10:41 am »
Nude art must be something sexual (and therefore bad?!).

The first rule of the secret Flipside page is you do not talk about the secret Flipside page.

Enkida

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #205 on: May 06, 2015, 10:26:59 am »
The first rule of the secret Flipside page is you do not talk about the secret Flipside page.

... or contribute to it.
 :-X  ::)  :o  ;D ;D ;D


oh, and quite seriously - fanart is always a creative commons license for me. Take it and do with it what you will, just either credit me as the artist in public or don't tell me what you do with it in private...   :-[ .  If anyone wants to modify a Flipside fanart picture (like colour it or whatever) go right on ahead, you don't need my permission for that either.  #usedtolegaldisclaimers

also, nude Maytag and Polly. Why is there not more Polly fanart.  Why is there not more nude Polly fanart.  Get to work people.
http://flipside.keenspot.com/forum/index.php?topic=9059
« Last Edit: May 06, 2015, 01:52:55 pm by Enkida »
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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #206 on: May 07, 2015, 05:21:33 am »
Ooh, now that's a smart move. Jumping over Bern and landing a blow to the back of her head. Has to be a bit costly in terms of stamina though. Still, it's not easy to counter and Bern's magic-eating swords can't block back there, not with ease anyway.

mittfh

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #207 on: May 07, 2015, 02:01:40 pm »
So now we learn he was a pole vault champion several years ago...

Chnmmr

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #208 on: May 08, 2015, 03:11:30 am »
Aaaaaaaaaaaamd there goes one of her ankles, crushed o_O

SAGG

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #209 on: May 08, 2015, 03:42:03 am »
Aaaaaaaaaaaamd there goes one of her ankles, crushed o_O

No, she seems to have blocked the blow with one of her swords. Otherwise, she would have screamed in agony...