Author Topic: Chapter 43: Discussion  (Read 37808 times)

sunphoenix

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #300 on: June 15, 2015, 10:32:57 am »
Why do I feel sickened at the crowd's roar of approval for Bern's victory? What a bunch of monsters...  >:(

They didn't know they were trying to kill her.

There goes that theory. If the prison director is making such bets, then murder must be a known and accepted option in Marvolo. This kind of changes everything in the prison, and maybe town.

Where was Brion's post about what goes there again?

Not necessarily.. he IS the director and certainly 'in-the-know' of things going on in the prison... things the general public are not likely aware of.  I could see a private betting pool between the officials running the prison on special events.

But you are correct, this is pretty damning of their entire "justice" system...!!!

Bern in her 'crime' did not hurt anyone, did not kill anyone, and only intimidated the possibility of force ...Only to get a professional healer to heal on their agreed upon time that they said they would wait for her to acquire the funds to save a man's life...  AND simply because Bern refused to be their sex toy or maim herself or torture/kill another person ALL for their Sick pleasure... they decided to have a hit-squad of killers brutally murder her in a arena spectacle that they intended to make money off both with admission fees and side bets!

The Marvolo 'government' are the lowest of the low... a mockery of any real government.

ANY veneer of "rule of law" or legitimacy as a justice system is clearly a sham!  In my opinion Bern would be quite justified in just rampaging her way through them all and fighting her way out of there... regardless if they declare her outlaw!  Considering their "justice" system, or lack thereof... I would consider it a badge of honor to be declared Outlaw and Criminal by their 'society'.. if that's what you want to call the thuggery they are touting as a Government, Law, and Justice system!!!
« Last Edit: June 15, 2015, 10:46:19 am by sunphoenix »
"...no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free.  No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything - you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is Kill him." - Robert A. Heinlein


SAGG

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #301 on: June 15, 2015, 12:50:10 pm »
Why do I feel sickened at the crowd's roar of approval for Bern's victory? What a bunch of monsters...  >:(

They didn't know they were trying to kill her.

There goes that theory. If the prison director is making such bets, then murder must be a known and accepted option in Marvolo. This kind of changes everything in the prison, and maybe town.

Where was Brion's post about what goes there again?

Not necessarily.. he IS the director and certainly 'in-the-know' of things going on in the prison... things the general public are not likely aware of.  I could see a private betting pool between the officials running the prison on special events.

But you are correct, this is pretty damning of their entire "justice" system...!!!

Bern in her 'crime' did not hurt anyone, did not kill anyone, and only intimidated the possibility of force ...Only to get a professional healer to heal on their agreed upon time that they said they would wait for her to acquire the funds to save a man's life...  AND simply because Bern refused to be their sex toy or maim herself or torture/kill another person ALL for their Sick pleasure... they decided to have a hit-squad of killers brutally murder her in a arena spectacle that they intended to make money off both with admission fees and side bets!

The Marvolo 'government' are the lowest of the low... a mockery of any real government.

ANY veneer of "rule of law" or legitimacy as a justice system is clearly a sham!  In my opinion Bern would be quite justified in just rampaging her way through them all and fighting her way out of there... regardless if they declare her outlaw!  Considering their "justice" system, or lack thereof... I would consider it a badge of honor to be declared Outlaw and Criminal by their 'society'.. if that's what you want to call the thuggery they are touting as a Government, Law, and Justice system!!!

Yeah! I've been saying that all along!  ;D First chance they get, get the heck out of there! These people are blood thirsty monsters!

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #302 on: June 15, 2015, 04:17:03 pm »
I wouldn't say it's just limited to the one town.  Even today, in any country, this type of entertainment is easily popular.  Public executions, floggings, autopsies, brawls...all forms of entertainment at one point.

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #303 on: June 15, 2015, 05:33:52 pm »
Bern in her 'crime' did not hurt anyone, did not kill anyone, and only intimidated the possibility of force ...Only to get a professional healer to heal on their agreed upon time that they said they would wait for her to acquire the funds to save a man's life...  AND simply because Bern refused to be their sex toy or maim herself or torture/kill another person ALL for their Sick pleasure... they decided to have a hit-squad of killers brutally murder her in a arena spectacle that they intended to make money off both with admission fees and side bets!
Well, we know that Bern probably wouldn't have followed through on her threat of force, or at least not to a maiming/killing degree, but realistically the law has to take threats of force very seriously (this is no comment on the specific consequences actually enforced upon Bern), or it becomes easy to just threaten people (which is very frightening and coercive, as from the victim's perspective they're in grave danger) and then just claim one wouldn't have followed through on it (even if one would have, something the victims have to consider).

Also, as I recall it she didn't threaten just to heal him on time, but to heal him for free (or perhaps (or perhaps not from the healer's legitimate perspective) she would've paid the pittance she could, but this makes little difference). It may sound nice to force free (to all but the healer) health care, but things may seem a bit different if one is the healer with theoretically limited ability to heal per day (or other period of time), and someone comes along and demands that you comply in healing someone for nothing or a pittance. Even if you had lots of healing per day the fact that it's a job implies that the overall market for healing is not unlimited or nearly unlimited. So either it's a good job (that you invested a lot of your time and/or money (even if just via opportunity cost) into, for which you could reasonably expect a good return on, lest you be swindled) and the thief is taking a lot of your money by either eating resources you needed to work that day (or other period of time) or at least by heavily diluting the market by encouraging more people to try to take your healing by force (which would result in a massive, probably catastrophic income loss if successful), or it's not a good job and you need every bit of money you can get, in which case you most especially can't afford to lose resources or lose your market by supporting the idea that healing can simply be taken if the would-be recipient just gets violent (and/or claims to really need it and be unable to pay the market price, etc.).

Incidentally, even a generous healer probably couldn't afford to do background checks on everyone (that the customers would ultimately have to pay for, no less) to determine if they really can pay, and if so how much, especially if the healing is needed immediately or quickly (which would also tend to be when the healing was the most difficult and/or resource-/time-consuming and customer-expensive). So even if you try to enforce such generosity as a moral upon healers in general it can still be wildly impractical and ruin their ability to maintain a steady enough income, especially in relation to their investment into becoming a healer in the first place (I assume we all prefer having market-priced healers to having no healers, and the latter is a consequence of the job becoming a poor investment).

Basically, if the government won't pay for healing and the government won't protect healers from being forced to heal at below market prices, healers will find their situations highly tenuous and likely will leave for better governed lands (changing jobs is possible, but less attractive given your investing into becoming a healer, especially if you can't hide the fact that you used to be a healer well, as then people will simply hit you up for healing on your new job) or will choose to not become healers in the first place, as it would be seen as a job for suckers that don't mind being robbed. In either case healing would become rather hard to come by if you lacked the wealth to personally hire and guard a healer, for personal or "general" (very expensive) use. Obviously the government is leaving some things to be desired, but unless there's reason to believe that effectively abolishing healing would push enough relevant people over the edge to successfully and without excessive cost overthrow the government and replace it with a superior enough one (I believe it's unknown to us whether such violent revolution is truly possible, as well as whether the new government would be better or worse, and by how much) it would seem better to keep the market for healing functional.

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #304 on: June 16, 2015, 06:31:51 am »
The punishment is not a violation of the social contract. Bern used force to demand a service. Punishment was meted out. Bern agreed to the punishment. This is all reasonable and thus far she has no cause for complaint.

The problem is in the manner in which the punishment was meted out. Bern broke the rules of the jail by refusing to fight. What did she think was going to happen? It's foolishness. But the rabid response by the authority, including the attempt on Bern's life, violates the agreed upon terms. That was a murder attempt by authority against Bern. No one in authority seems to have worked to avoid it.

Bern has a right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. In commission of her crime, she stole someone else's right to liberty and pursuit of happiness. Therefore, it is natural that hers be revoked for a little while. That was just. Bern agreed to the terms of her captivity. She could have languored in prison, instead chose to be a part of the arena. But the attempt at murder violated the social contract. Bern and those who support her cause have the right to violently oppose this authority (in a manner consistent with preserving the natural rights of others) until the conditions have been rectified.

bulmabriefs144

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #305 on: June 16, 2015, 08:10:14 pm »
Why do I feel sickened at the crowd's roar of approval for Bern's victory? What a bunch of monsters...  >:(

They didn't know they were trying to kill her.

There goes that theory. If the prison director is making such bets, then murder must be a known and accepted option in Marvolo. This kind of changes everything in the prison, and maybe town.

Where was Brion's post about what goes there again?

Not necessarily.. he IS the director and certainly 'in-the-know' of things going on in the prison... things the general public are not likely aware of.  I could see a private betting pool between the officials running the prison on special events.

But you are correct, this is pretty damning of their entire "justice" system...!!!

Bern in her 'crime' did not hurt anyone, did not kill anyone, and only intimidated the possibility of force ...Only to get a professional healer to heal on their agreed upon time that they said they would wait for her to acquire the funds to save a man's life...  AND simply because Bern refused to be their sex toy or maim herself or torture/kill another person ALL for their Sick pleasure... they decided to have a hit-squad of killers brutally murder her in a arena spectacle that they intended to make money off both with admission fees and side bets!

The Marvolo 'government' are the lowest of the low... a mockery of any real government.

ANY veneer of "rule of law" or legitimacy as a justice system is clearly a sham!  In my opinion Bern would be quite justified in just rampaging her way through them all and fighting her way out of there... regardless if they declare her outlaw!  Considering their "justice" system, or lack thereof... I would consider it a badge of honor to be declared Outlaw and Criminal by their 'society'.. if that's what you want to call the thuggery they are touting as a Government, Law, and Justice system!!!

Quote
Basically, if the government won't pay for healing and the government won't protect healers from being forced to heal at below market prices, healers will find their situations highly tenuous and likely will leave for better governed lands (changing jobs is possible, but less attractive given your investing into becoming a healer, especially if you can't hide the fact that you used to be a healer well, as then people will simply hit you up for healing on your new job) or will choose to not become healers in the first place, as it would be seen as a job for suckers that don't mind being robbed. In either case healing would become rather hard to come by if you lacked the wealth to personally hire and guard a healer, for personal or "general" (very expensive) use. Obviously the government is leaving some things to be desired, but unless there's reason to believe that effectively abolishing healing would push enough relevant people over the edge to successfully and without excessive cost overthrow the government and replace it with a superior enough one (I believe it's unknown to us whether such violent revolution is truly possible, as well as whether the new government would be better or worse, and by how much) it would seem better to keep the market for healing functional.

Uhhhh, just a heads up.

Unlike certain governments, they make no pretense at law or justice or anything like that. They are a constitutional anarchy governed by a commercial punishment system. It's very much a business, and everyone knows it. If you pay a commercial group to enforce law, they figure out how to make it profitable.

Government doesn't pay for anything. Because they have basically no taxes, and people do what they want. If there is a need (say, electricity) people hire someone to take care of it. Given this, yes medicine can be stingy, and yes there is some pretty sketchy justice system. Bern made the mistake of putting her norms into this. But it's not really subject to them. Mind your space, and it treats you okay, just don't threaten anyone.

Also, where's my mini-fridge?

Quote
The punishment is not a violation of the social contract. Bern used force to demand a service. Punishment was meted out. Bern agreed to the punishment. This is all reasonable and thus far she has no cause for complaint.

The problem is in the manner in which the punishment was meted out. Bern broke the rules of the jail by refusing to fight. What did she think was going to happen? It's foolishness. But the rabid response by the authority, including the attempt on Bern's life, violates the agreed upon terms. That was a murder attempt by authority against Bern. No one in authority seems to have worked to avoid it.

Bern has a right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. In commission of her crime, she stole someone else's right to liberty and pursuit of happiness. Therefore, it is natural that hers be revoked for a little while. That was just. Bern agreed to the terms of her captivity. She could have languored in prison, instead chose to be a part of the arena. But the attempt at murder violated the social contract. Bern and those who support her cause have the right to violently oppose this authority (in a manner consistent with preserving the natural rights of others) until the conditions have been rectified.

This is all very interesting, but these rights can be suppressed (not revoked, mind, not while you live). If you are a prisoner, you are not free, and largely cannot pursue happiness. So you effectively have to earn your freedom. Given this, it is not reasonable to assume that life is guaranteed. It isn't that they are trying to kill her so much as they don't care enough to stop her from dying at bottom D rank.

This is not the US, it's more like the Roman Empire, minus centralized power.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2015, 08:17:31 pm by bulmabriefs144 »
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

sunphoenix

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #306 on: June 17, 2015, 12:23:18 pm »
The punishment is not a violation of the social contract. Bern used force to demand a service. Punishment was meted out. Bern agreed to the punishment. This is all reasonable and thus far she has no cause for complaint.

The problem is in the manner in which the punishment was meted out. Bern broke the rules of the jail by refusing to fight. What did she think was going to happen? It's foolishness. But the rabid response by the authority, including the attempt on Bern's life, violates the agreed upon terms. That was a murder attempt by authority against Bern. No one in authority seems to have worked to avoid it.

Bern has a right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. In commission of her crime, she stole someone else's right to liberty and pursuit of happiness. Therefore, it is natural that hers be revoked for a little while. That was just. Bern agreed to the terms of her captivity. She could have languored in prison, instead chose to be a part of the arena. But the attempt at murder violated the social contract. Bern and those who support her cause have the right to violently oppose this authority (in a manner consistent with preserving the natural rights of others) until the conditions have been rectified.

Most eloquently put, far better than I did! :) I agree completely with this point of view!
"...no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free.  No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything - you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is Kill him." - Robert A. Heinlein


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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #307 on: June 18, 2015, 01:04:56 pm »
"Keep up the good work, and you'll be paying down those marks in no time!"

Translation: "Keep fighting as well as you did today, and you'll be increasing our profits in no time!"

sunphoenix

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #308 on: June 18, 2015, 10:07:16 pm »
"Keep up the good work, and you'll be paying down those marks in no time!"

Translation: "Keep fighting as well as you did today, and you'll be increasing our profits in no time!"

Yeah, 'Sex-plotation' is our business after all!  Nothing draws more audience than two sexy scantily clad hotties kicking Ass in our arena!  We don't Even have to pay you for the work... win-win-win! {At least for us the arena admins}... don't die ...too quickly! :)

..All of these people as Ass-hats!!!
"...no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free.  No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything - you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is Kill him." - Robert A. Heinlein


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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #309 on: June 19, 2015, 03:24:59 pm »
You're DOGGONE RIGHT "It's pretty awful", Polly, for that blood-crazed crowd to cheer the fight!  ::) As soon as you guys can, get the heck out of Dodge!  ;D

bulmabriefs144

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #310 on: June 19, 2015, 06:37:40 pm »
"Keep up the good work, and you'll be paying down those marks in no time!"

Translation: "Keep fighting as well as you did today, and you'll be increasing our profits in no time!"

Yeah, 'Sex-plotation' is our business after all!  Nothing draws more audience than two sexy scantily clad hotties kicking Ass in our arena!  We don't Even have to pay you for the work... win-win-win! {At least for us the arena admins}... don't die ...too quickly! :)

..All of these people as Ass-hats!!!

Room and board is actually reasonable. In this day and age, we forget that these scraps of paper are only valuable if they add up to living wages, and many people are actually living outside their means.

Like ummm, possibly the arena guys. Sure they could be living in mansions, but seriously, I don't envy what they have to go through to earn it.

Remember, the definition of slavery is not "didn't pay you money" it's "didn't pay you a living wage and/or the work you are doing is such that you should be paid way more for putting up with it." Trust me, I've worked at places that technically did pay me but not steadily enough to live on, and the job was degrading. Still felt like slavery.

They still need to escape though, as they can't keep hurting people just to live.
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

sunphoenix

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #311 on: June 19, 2015, 10:51:31 pm »
... ... ok, NOW... I'm a little disappointed in Bern. :(

Polly - "Snowpatch... are you alright?"

Bern - "Yes... ~{blah-blah-blah}"

{Sigh}... I still like her but.. her response comes off to me a Very Selfish.  It all about how SHE felt.. what SHE has had to go through...!

Were I in her situation... the thing that would bother me the most...

 - "No.  I'm not alright... look at what I've asked you to do for me?!?!  Whoring yourself out to those sick bastards...for me!  I'm so ashamed.... how can I EVER make that right?  How can I EVER say I'm sorry enough... what kind of friend AM I to have allowed them to put you through that!!!"

{Shrug}.. I don't know its just bothering me... maybe I'm just being too judgmental.. or its that DAMNABLE Male Chivalrous behavior I get myself into trouble over that makes me want to protect the honor, virtue, and dignity of women... and not just see them as sex-objects to be exploited?  It really annoys me the prevalent attitude that is so UGLY in our culture but is 'tacitly' accepted and approved ...that is O.K. for men to view women as mere objects of entertainment.

I hate that.
"...no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free.  No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything - you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is Kill him." - Robert A. Heinlein


bulmabriefs144

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #312 on: June 21, 2015, 06:52:34 pm »
Polly asked her how she felt, and she answered.

Also, again, she never asked this. She got outbid. Reread the thing. Even had she tried to do it, "nope, I'm gonna bid 10 for each you do, so you're hurting me." "...Okay I'll stop."

Bern seems selfish, maybe, but saying this would be so out of character it wouldn't be funny. If Polly was like "So not looking forward to spending time with a bunch of men/women/dogs" Bern would be like "There has to be some other way! You don't have to do that." As it is, Bern got outbid and threatened, so she's not gonna push the issue. Also, not reminding Polly of this, is kinda a sore point.

"I'm sorry you have to sleep with..." "^&#@*$ Bern, why did you bring that up?"

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/tact

Also, I've known real-life escorts. I've almost been an escort. Being preachy and moralistic does not make you come across as unselfish. It makes you come across as a jerk. Polly chose this, saying this belittles her sacrifice.  I had a friend who did garden work, and she wanted me to help her hook up with a guy (bringing me along). I was like "fuck that, don't wanna" and she's now kinda an ex-friend. In general, yes, it is a sad fact of life for women. But it's something Polly decided.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2015, 06:59:14 pm by bulmabriefs144 »
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #313 on: June 22, 2015, 03:18:09 am »
Ah, why would they get those butt-covering flaps on their new "uniforms"?
That kind of defeats the purpose of "catering to the audience" by wearing thongs, doesn't it?
If fetishization was the goal, I picture more fancy "higher rank" clothing of that kind to look more like bondage harness rather than just adding flaps.

I do wonder if this clothing really is that "impractical for battle".
It's very much inspired by roman gladiators, at least this doesn't appear to hinder mobility, there isn't much to grab onto for enemies and they are still allowed to bind their breasts together instead of going topless though I do wonder if going topless would even be a hindrance?

Bern doesn't appear to have the megaboobs that would bounce around too much and get in the way, so is the boob cover thing of practical nature or  are boobs sexualized in flipside world like they are in ours and everyone would fall into a deep psychosis upon seeing female nips, even in this extreme kind of setting where sexualization is the goal?

Or is Brion just too chicken to put uncovered boobs into flipside.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2015, 03:30:07 am by 9_6 »

bulmabriefs144

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #314 on: June 22, 2015, 02:27:43 pm »
Have you considered counseling for your sex addiction?

Never even thought about this. It's an outfit, it's for fighting, we don't need to fixate on it. Gladiators are scantily clad because it's cheaper to do so than give them full armor. At a certain point, crossing into sex fetish zone and the fighters would complain.
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #315 on: June 22, 2015, 04:34:46 pm »

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #316 on: June 22, 2015, 07:20:04 pm »
I believe that Flipside has had uncovered breasts in the past. I couldn't say exactly when, though. The only thing that comes to mind right now is Maytag bathing with Regina.

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #317 on: June 22, 2015, 08:30:07 pm »
Yes, in the past there are sometimes exposed breasts.  I want to avoid doing that too often as it can be seen as gratuitous.  As for why the colosseum doesn't make the fighters fight topless or naked... imagine that their reasoning is something like this: "if you show too much, it's actually less tantalizing!  It's more titillating if you leave a little to the imagination!" 

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #318 on: June 23, 2015, 02:34:33 am »
Well I remember this is kind of a dumb question anyway.

Sexual repression has been the core theme of flipside that sparked it into existence with maytags defining characteristic being that she rejects it so of course everyone in flipside world has at least the same level of irrational "exposed female chest psychosis" we do but not quite "omg cover your ankles" levels of medieval repression.
It wouldn't really suit the overall tone if there were truly equal views on both sexes being topless in one part of the world with female breasts not being seen as inherently sexual at all. The contrary would make more sense.

That kind of clashes with that sudden bout of progressiveness when they force both men and women into equally revealing clothing in that arena though or maybe flipside world is just overall a lot more accepting of homosexuality compared to reality.
Nobody really cared a lot about Bern being a lesbian after all, we just didn't see a gay romance playing out on-screen and being established as something normal nobody really cares about so far, just lesbians and straight guys if I remember correctly and that's why all the half-naked guys appear out of the ordinary.

Either way, I hope we address what Pollys 20 days sex slave status entails for her, now that she voiced her disillusionment with how things are being handled in that country.
Bern only being able to watch while a friend negotiates themself into some kind of physical of mental harm for her sake starts to form somewhat of a pattern now.

Oh also bulmabriefs144 didn't even catch that the arena clothing was meant to sexualize the fighters so perhaps that indicates that the arena clothing designs are a bit too plain, too close to gladiators which were half naked but not really really meant to be sexualized... I think...?
I thought this was a commentary on bikini armor in some games but you didn't go full retard with it to highlight just how stupid it is, especially when "played straight".
« Last Edit: June 23, 2015, 02:52:24 am by 9_6 »

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #319 on: June 23, 2015, 11:14:37 pm »
I thought this was a commentary on bikini armor in some games but you didn't go full retard with it to highlight just how stupid it is, especially when "played straight".

It's not meant to be a commentary like that, because I don't actually believe that's stupid.  I'm more against the criticism of it.

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #320 on: June 23, 2015, 11:46:52 pm »
Really?

I get the message of "violence isn't enough, people also need to get off of it" out of this collosseum arc so far and drew a parallel to how a lot of fiction lumps sex and violence together in a matter of fact-y way.
It gets kind of bizarre in some mmorpgs where the violence is this assembly-line-esque repetetive task (much like the collosseum turns it into a business) so the purely fanservice, 0 practicality bikini armor designs just add to how abstract "violence" is being handled and I thought you wanted to pull that into an actual setting to highlight how odd it is.

Especially since you threw a character like Bernadette who has been anything but a fan of fetishized violence into a setting like that.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2015, 11:51:26 pm by 9_6 »

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #321 on: June 24, 2015, 12:25:36 pm »
Well, you can read whatever you want into it, of course.  But if it were meant to be a criticism of sex and violence in media, it would be hypocritiical since I'm doing the exact same thing.  The bikini gladiator clothes are like that not because of any particular statement but just because I think it follows logically.  The point of the colosseum is not only to punish lawbreakers, but also to make money, because this is a highly capitalistic society.  And sex sells.  I think it wouldn't make sense any other way.

There is meant to be commentary behind the colosseum arc, but it's of a different nature.  I guess I shouldn't spell that out.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2015, 12:28:11 pm by Brion Foulke »

sunphoenix

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #322 on: June 24, 2015, 12:25:54 pm »
OKAY... que the Luther Vandross or Isaac Hayes music for the much awaited make-out scene between Bern & Polly {no sweet pure-bread there}! :)

But seriously... Polly earned that kiss.  It was a pure expression of heartfelt appreciation... which I'm CERTAIN Maytag would approve of! :)
« Last Edit: June 24, 2015, 12:27:33 pm by sunphoenix »
"...no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free.  No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything - you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is Kill him." - Robert A. Heinlein


bulmabriefs144

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #323 on: June 24, 2015, 02:57:56 pm »
No.

Totally not fanservice.

Quote
I believe that Flipside has had uncovered breasts in the past. I couldn't say exactly when, though. The only thing that comes to mind right now is Maytag bathing with Regina.

Maytag got stripped nude by that sword attack with the guy wearing the Xibulba collar.

But really, the fanservice seems to be currently following rules of plotline. As in, you couldn't reasonably expect Bern to go braless for like 30 pages. You could possibly expect Polly and Bern to at some point get it on, and this would be a plot reason for showing bare breasts. Or when Polly is making out with a bunch of people to pay off that debt.

Quote
Oh also bulmabriefs144 didn't even catch that the arena clothing was meant to sexualize the fighters so perhaps that indicates that the arena clothing designs are a bit too plain, too close to gladiators which were half naked but not really really meant to be sexualized... I think...?

Actually, you will notice that on men and women, the uniforms basically cover the sex organs. They aren't to wear much, but not just because of sexuality. It's cheap to make, a few strips of cloth to cover the essential bits, so they can pretty much get away with it because it entertains those watching the show. It's also degrading. As in, it makes you feel less powerful or worthwhile to be stripped almost naked and forced to fight. Don't believe me? Explain the rationale behind hospital gowns.  Now explain why people don't tend to quibble with doctors after being forced into the gown, left alone for hours, and told to poop in basins instead of proper toilets. You can think it's all about sex, but actually, it has little to do with it.

It also appears you can buy in for clothing or weapons, in a piecemeal fashion. The A ranks had capes, the old guy was fully clothed (thank god), and the girl had armor on one side.

This scene was adorable.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2015, 03:01:30 pm by bulmabriefs144 »
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

ipatrol

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #324 on: June 26, 2015, 03:28:22 am »
Quote
Quote
I believe that Flipside has had uncovered breasts in the past. I couldn't say exactly when, though. The only thing that comes to mind right now is Maytag bathing with Regina.
Maytag got stripped nude by that sword attack with the guy wearing the Xibulba collar.

I know it's been a while, but there have been several such instances throughout the series. Who could forget when Maytag was magically stripped nude in front of the audience for the radio show contest? I would think if males could remember anything, it would be breasts  ;) .

Quote
Don't believe me? Explain the rationale behind hospital gowns.  Now explain why people don't tend to quibble with doctors after being forced into the gown, left alone for hours, and told to poop in basins instead of proper toilets. You can think it's all about sex, but actually, it has little to do with it.

I was gonna say, that's not even about power. Clothes are removed because they aren't sterile and can hold dangerous substances (like pesticides, cleaning products, adsorbed gases, pathogens, etc.) "Left alone for hours" is a staffing issue, since I assume one isn't talking about an unstable or otherwise critical paitent. As for the basin thing, last I checked if you are ambulatory there's nothing stopping you from getting up and locating the nearest restroom. The staff probably just assume that if you need to ask, it means that you can't get up and need their assistance.

bulmabriefs144

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #325 on: June 26, 2015, 03:42:23 pm »
I dunno. I try to avoid hospitals as much as possible. The fact remains, even though your clothes might contain contaminants there is no good reason for the sort of assless chaps thing going on with hospital gowns. The hospital is cold, and the ventilation system can spread disease through coughing and puking. As noted on several articles about anal sex, that area is disease sensitive.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/04/01/health/hospital-gown-fashion-makeover/

Yes, some of it is staffing. But some of it is that doctors are arrogant and on a power kick. "This patient was rude to me, so let's ignore him for awhile." And some of it  is outright incompetence. My dad was in emergency for upwards of six hours. He had a side collision while driving into an intersection that had power outage from a hurricane. I was not allowed to ride in the ambulance, unless I got treated (no joke, being family didn't mean a thing, so I get to walk upwards of six blocks to a hospital where they took him).  I got to the hospital, and it was two hours, before they even checked him in. Seriously, they didn't know who he was, and I wasn't allowed to go in do to stupid rules. Then I call my mom, and she gets there from another town, squawks, and finally they let me see him. The doctors were useless. Triage (ppl get separated into not serious enough to treat, dying regardless, and dying but we can prevent it). He's not critical enough that we have to perform surgery, so rather than staffing even one doctor on him, hey ummm, yea. The sooner you treat, the sooner we can go home and be out of your hair. A quick cast, pain medicine, and a wheelchair home. That's all he needs. Nope, they sat and joked with each other, while my mom was freaking out, and we get to figure out what to do with our car (no insurance after that one). So yea, I wouldn't put it past them to pull stuff like that.

Basically, if you have an organization that is not funded by the state, they will try to save money (ditto, if the state sets cost regulations). They will do so by cutting material costs however possible (hence the hospital gown comparison, sure maybe there's different reasons, but it is a cheap as heck gown). If Bern had been given D Class weapons to go with her armor, this would basically be some cheap sword that would break after a few swings, and she'd be told "not my problem" if it broke.
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #326 on: June 27, 2015, 03:47:15 am »
When I got my appendectomy, I had to wear that gown naked exactly 1 time right before the surgery.
That clothing needs to be able to be removed while you're lying down, knocked out or when you can't really get up on your own so they don't need to cut the clothing off your body in case things need to be done.
After the surgery, I could wear underwear or my own clothing and there were no mandatory bedpans either so I don't see how this is comparable to degrading prisoners at all.

Also the fact that this motherfucker is literally going to cut you open soon might be a larger factor in you not quite being in the mood to be argumentative since you're usually having bedsheets over you when wearing the thing anyway.

bulmabriefs144

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #327 on: June 28, 2015, 04:14:12 am »
I agree with it being short (about that length), loose, and removable.

What I don't buy is the absolutely shabby material cost, and the the fact that it provides zero protection for your bum from illness. Simple fix make it closed in back, but stretchy so it can be adjusted easily. It's not just a fashion concern, it's a health concern.

They have better designs they can use. They just aren't using them.

Who knows how many sick people before you have been lying down on that sickbed? Oh sure, they clean the hospital. But ummm, I worked as a janitor for a brief stint, cleaning hospitals. I don't recall ever spraying the beds, we mainly dusted and mopped. I wouldn't lie on that bed if I could help it. Not with an exposed rear end.

http://www.beckershospitalreview.com/compensation-issues/72-statistics-on-hourly-physician-compensation.html

I typically make $10 an hour. Are you telling me that at over $200 an hour, they can't cut maybe $5 hourly from each doctor's paycheck and pay to make a better design? Even a buck would probably pay to have one with the butt covered.

 The comparison is that the prison gladiator thing could give prisoners better clothes to wear. Better treatment. Better lives. But they aren't. This is not because of some secret fetish thing. It's because they are cheapskates and want to squeeze as much money out as possible. The people running this show are basically too busy making money hand over fist, but "we're struggling" or "times are bad" (or "we've had a recession lately") whenever anyone asks them to shell out any money for human rights. What? You think people like worrying about the fact that before they came, people were even getting raped? No thanks. 

« Last Edit: June 28, 2015, 04:35:25 am by bulmabriefs144 »
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #328 on: June 28, 2015, 07:02:25 pm »
So um, I get that you probably had a bad experience, but at the hospitals around where I work (I cover a large part of rural Oregon), the gown they put people in doesn't expose your butt. It actually closes at each shoulder and has snaps that can undo the gown from the shoulder for easy access to your body if necessary medically. I also was allowed undergarments aside from when I was being actually prepped for surgery.

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #329 on: June 30, 2015, 12:15:19 am »
Nice to see Bern FINALLY admit she was weak, but why doesn't she simply jump to the point and take Polly's place instead of checking Polly's emotions?