Author Topic: Chapter 43: Discussion  (Read 35489 times)

bulmabriefs144

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #30 on: March 18, 2015, 09:54:56 pm »
But many things are force in a way that isn't readily apparent.

Violence is force because it forces people to die, or it forces (through threat) people to do as you want. A bar room brawl isn't inherently about force unless it can be proved something coercive about it was intended (i.e. "you take that back", "make me", brawl starts). Rape would technically also qualify (forcing sex).

Stealing might be fine (as long as it is slight of hand, and not armed robbery), because while someone is technically giving you something without their knowledge but you are not consciously attempting to force them to do anything. Taking a loaf of bread, a baker might need to count it as a loss because forcing them to pay would be a crime.  :'(

The statement about the force is interesting. Bern can't dodge anymore if this is true, and she hasn't nerve to fight right now, but maybe another tactic. If she could find the nerve even to block, these swords (if they're all they are cracked up to be) might cancel midswing, doing an Izuru Kira (Bleach) imitation.  That said, we have no idea how these things work. But if she does manage it, it might be interesting to see how things play out in all its gory detail.
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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #31 on: March 19, 2015, 05:09:51 am »
His I-beam is fashioned out of Element Zero from Mass Effect! It can alter its mass at will. Lighter so it swings faster, heavier mass on impact. OUCH! Sir Isaac Newton is the meanest son-of-a-bitch in the universe!

To put it another way...

K=1/2*mv^2. So he wants to double his speed, he needs to reduce the I-beam's mass by a factor of four.

Yeah, if he loses his grip while he's doing swings at incredible speeds, the mass will suddenly increase by the square of the velocity multiplier. He's not just swinging an I-beam anymore. He's got a freaking mass driver!
« Last Edit: March 19, 2015, 05:18:23 am by Azure Priest »

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #32 on: March 20, 2015, 10:46:31 am »
A very small nitpick,  since this world is one of magic as science.  He'd change the mass of his weapon,  not the weight.  Even in zero g a more massive weapon has greater momentum. Ie,  it would be rather hard to stop once you get it swinging at high velocity and would pull him from his feet as its mass is so much higher than his,  coupled with its velocity. Similarly,  accelerating to such speed is based on mass,  not weight.

So reduction of mass,  not weight :)

sunphoenix

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #33 on: March 20, 2015, 02:04:20 pm »
Not a criticism Shazam.. but don't you mean it the other way around?  Weight is based upon the gravitic pull of the largest body acting on it.  But the Mass never changes... that's a constant; and my point.  "Magic" might be able to make the weapon feel weightless.. but it still retains its mass.. hence why getting hit with it would be fatally painful... for the few second one was still alive after such a devastating impact.

The magic does not really make the weapon inertialess... or it would have absolutely NO impact no matter how fast you swung it on contact.. its 'inertia-less'.  So the magic is twisting gravity fields in some way to make it 'seem' weightless but retain its mass. 

My point is if Bern's swords negate that magic~ when he swinging the I-Beam... at that speed the inertia of the mass of the I-Beam is WAAY HIGH.. and his tightly gripping hand will feel all that tidal effect of the inertia he has imparted to it with his swing!  Momentum is a bitch.. it will likely rip his fingers off if not pulverize every bone in his hands, as the grip violently flies out of his hands from the momentum of the swing... flesh & bone have their shear force limits... like everything else made of matter.

I pick up a bullet and throw it at you and it bounces off your shirt... no biggie, it's not very heavy at all.  Now I do it again.. but this time I add several thousands of meters of velocity on it and it blows a hole through your chest and the brick wall behind you!  It didn't get heavier.. but its inertia made the impact Much more devastating.  Now do that same with the I-Beam.  Its already damned heavy... so getting hit with it will... hurt {to say the least}.  But, try holding onto it with it moving several hundred feet per second while your standing still...  Good-bye hand!  'nuff said.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2015, 02:15:04 pm by sunphoenix »
"...no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free.  No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything - you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is Kill him." - Robert A. Heinlein


bulmabriefs144

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #34 on: March 20, 2015, 03:39:04 pm »
Welp, her legs are pinned. She's dead now.  ;D

Okay, I'm trolling a bit. She's got a few things left to try. Tricky old man, though.
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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #35 on: March 21, 2015, 12:39:35 am »
Welp, her legs are pinned. She's dead now.  ;D

Okay, I'm trolling a bit. She's got a few things left to try. Tricky old man, though.
Hit the guy's hand and arm with her sword, if she has the time...

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #36 on: March 21, 2015, 05:53:16 am »
Oh, now it's a sand mage. As if the disadvantage wasn't ridiculously overwhelming enough already! How anyone can consider this "fight" entertaining is beyond me.

An entertaining fight requires the opponent to actually stand a chance.

This is no better than standing back and watching a bunch of schoolyard bullies beat up on the new kid. Anyone who cheers at this needs mental therapy with a two by four to the head.

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #37 on: March 22, 2015, 04:47:40 am »
Anyone who cheers at this needs mental therapy with a two by four to the head.

Got a chuckle out of this.. thanks! :)
"...no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free.  No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything - you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is Kill him." - Robert A. Heinlein


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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #38 on: March 22, 2015, 05:26:50 am »

My point is if Bern's swords negate that magic~ when he swinging the I-Beam... at that speed the inertia of the mass of the I-Beam is WAAY HIGH.. and his tightly gripping hand will feel all that tidal effect of the inertia he has imparted to it with his swing!  Momentum is a bitch.. it will likely rip his fingers off if not pulverize every bone in his hands, as the grip violently flies out of his hands from the momentum of the swing... flesh & bone have their shear force limits... like everything else made of matter.


I am actually hoping to see this happen now.   >:D
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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #39 on: March 22, 2015, 09:28:20 pm »
Stealing might be fine (as long as it is slight of hand, and not armed robbery), because while someone is technically giving you something without their knowledge but you are not consciously attempting to force them to do anything. Taking a loaf of bread, a baker might need to count it as a loss because forcing them to pay would be a crime.  :'(

Stealing is still a type of force, because you're taking something from someone against their will.




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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #40 on: March 24, 2015, 05:54:01 am »
"violence" includes all forms of theft, pickpocketing, shoplifting, etc.

It does not include certain forms of fraud, as you voluntarily parted with your money or possession, even under a false pretense.

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #41 on: March 24, 2015, 10:59:03 am »
Not a criticism Shazam.. but don't you mean it the other way around?  Weight is based upon the gravitic pull of the largest body acting on it.  But the Mass never changes... that's a constant; and my point.  "Magic" might be able to make the weapon feel weightless.. but it still retains its mass.. hence why getting hit with it would be fatally painful... for the few second one was still alive after such a devastating impact.

The magic does not really make the weapon inertialess... or it would have absolutely NO impact no matter how fast you swung it on contact.. its 'inertia-less'.  So the magic is twisting gravity fields in some way to make it 'seem' weightless but retain its mass. 

My point is if Bern's swords negate that magic~ when he swinging the I-Beam... at that speed the inertia of the mass of the I-Beam is WAAY HIGH.. and his tightly gripping hand will feel all that tidal effect of the inertia he has imparted to it with his swing!  Momentum is a bitch.. it will likely rip his fingers off if not pulverize every bone in his hands, as the grip violently flies out of his hands from the momentum of the swing... flesh & bone have their shear force limits... like everything else made of matter.

I pick up a bullet and throw it at you and it bounces off your shirt... no biggie, it's not very heavy at all.  Now I do it again.. but this time I add several thousands of meters of velocity on it and it blows a hole through your chest and the brick wall behind you!  It didn't get heavier.. but its inertia made the impact Much more devastating.  Now do that same with the I-Beam.  Its already damned heavy... so getting hit with it will... hurt {to say the least}.  But, try holding onto it with it moving several hundred feet per second while your standing still...  Good-bye hand!  'nuff said.

Nope. :)

Sorry for the delay in replying.

Weight is solely your angular momentum based on a force (in this case gravity) being applied to a mass.  Ie, gravity as a force measures the pull and thus acceleration on an object towards the source of the gravity.

I'd been pondering how to simplify things via text (before I forgot about this thread). Reducing an item's weight, simply means you are reducing how much force you need to lift it vertically. That's all. You are simply addressing it's relatively momentum downward. It has no other meaning of effect. It doesn't allow you to increase your acceleration of an object for a given net force. That would require changing the mass.

To give another mind experiment. If you have ever seen the challenges of someone pulling a large mass, perhaps a car, or a sled with weights on it, they are having to strain against two elements, the first is the inertia of the object (ie, it is at rest) and in addition whatever friction is inherent in the system... is in wheels, flat against the ground, etc. The most difficult stage is the beginning and starting to get the mass moving. They have to add enough force to the system to accelerate it and change it's momentum. Once it is moving, they can keep pulling it more easily. It will tend to keep moving only shedding speed based on energy lost to friction. An object at rest tends to stay at rest, and an object in motion tends to stay in motion.

The short answer is, whatever he's doing it isn't changing 'weight'.

A solution to what he is doing is that he's transferring the effect mass of the system that is him plus his ibeam to his body and thus changing his the rotational angular momentum of the system. Ie, like when a ballerina/figure skater pulls their arms/legs in after starting to spin which dramatically accelerates the spinning.

http://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/3611/why-does-a-ballerina-speed-up-when-she-pulls-in-her-arms

The 'magic' is that the ibeam isn't actually pulled in, so the location of impact will be on the end portion of the weapon which is now moving ridiculously fast, and with kinetic energy being 1/2 mv^2, you get his legendary (unbeknownst to Polly apparently) destructive capability.

So his magic is a faking out of the rules of physics by shifting mass within a system. Ta da. :)

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #42 on: March 24, 2015, 05:04:37 pm »
Shifting mass without changing the makeup or distribution of matter in the weapon seems a bit too convenient to me. Have you considered that perhaps the warden's use of terms is loose/doesn't match non-fictional modern scientists' use of terms? Anyway, another method would be to simply have the nanobots that are the source of "magic" in Flipside's world be compensating for all the missing force wherever it is needed to create the effect. So if he's lifting the (non I-) beam up it lifts with him to "reduce weight" from the wielder's perspective. This can be applied to any movement based on mass and/or gravity/inertia. For the target struck the nanobots don't have to reduce anything, and just let the beam hit normally.

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #43 on: March 24, 2015, 08:40:11 pm »
Shifting mass without changing the makeup or distribution of matter in the weapon seems a bit too convenient to me. Have you considered that perhaps the warden's use of terms is loose/doesn't match non-fictional modern scientists' use of terms? Anyway, another method would be to simply have the nanobots that are the source of "magic" in Flipside's world be compensating for all the missing force wherever it is needed to create the effect. So if he's lifting the (non I-) beam up it lifts with him to "reduce weight" from the wielder's perspective. This can be applied to any movement based on mass and/or gravity/inertia. For the target struck the nanobots don't have to reduce anything, and just let the beam hit normally.
Yep, that was my theory as well. Nobody knows the nanobots are there, so they just describe the apparent effect of the spell, rather than its root cause... sort of like gravity in real life :P

Hopefully Bernadette will get her act together and actually start fighting rather than needing rescued. Chop that hand off and fling it at True Strike :D

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #44 on: March 25, 2015, 01:34:34 am »
Currently, Bern only has one ankle pinned - the rest of her body is free to move, so it's possible she could duck out of the way of the beam. With a bit of luck, when it hits the ground, the shockwaves will cause sand mage to lose his grip. If she then keeps moving around the arena, she'll effectively negate two of her opponents (since it undoubtedly takes a few seconds to aim the beam / hand).

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #45 on: March 25, 2015, 10:42:25 am »
Grant is totally gonna get it.

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #46 on: March 25, 2015, 12:18:21 pm »
I suspect the magic swords Bern's holding WILL protect her...yes, er, they'll do the trick...  :D

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #47 on: March 25, 2015, 01:33:53 pm »
It's definitely the swords that'll help out in the fight. Bern's always had regular swords to fight with. It's gonna be new territory for her. And it will be glorious. I hope it is.

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #48 on: March 25, 2015, 05:22:19 pm »
Shifting mass without changing the makeup or distribution of matter in the weapon seems a bit too convenient to me. Have you considered that perhaps the warden's use of terms is loose/doesn't match non-fictional modern scientists' use of terms? Anyway, another method would be to simply have the nanobots that are the source of "magic" in Flipside's world be compensating for all the missing force wherever it is needed to create the effect. So if he's lifting the (non I-) beam up it lifts with him to "reduce weight" from the wielder's perspective. This can be applied to any movement based on mass and/or gravity/inertia. For the target struck the nanobots don't have to reduce anything, and just let the beam hit normally.
Yep, that was my theory as well. Nobody knows the nanobots are there, so they just describe the apparent effect of the spell, rather than its root cause... sort of like gravity in real life :P

Hopefully Bernadette will get her act together and actually start fighting rather than needing rescued. Chop that hand off and fling it at True Strike :D

Truthfully, there are all sorts of ways the magic could work via nanobots. I'm fine with any of it. It's magic, or a technology advanced enough to be indistinguishable. My only original nitpick is that it wasn't changing the 'weight', which is just a matter of lifting, not changing lateral momentum. :) Only terminology, not magic.

bulmabriefs144

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #49 on: March 25, 2015, 05:32:57 pm »
Ugh, we've got an issue here.

If it were a side swing, the magic cancellation effect would indeed rip his arm off.

However, a downward swing, if the cancellation hits, I would imagine this would become heavy at exactly the wrong moment. Or... someone help me out here with the physics. Would it pull him off balance?
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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #50 on: March 26, 2015, 05:23:30 am »
Ugh, we've got an issue here.

If it were a side swing, the magic cancellation effect would indeed rip his arm off.

However, a downward swing, if the cancellation hits, I would imagine this would become heavy at exactly the wrong moment. Or... someone help me out here with the physics. Would it pull him off balance?

Short answer, the impact would hurt, A LOT.

Long answer, changing the "weight" to swing it faster without altering the force of impact indeed is an accurate description of changing an object's mass. Or some effect that mimics that result. When the I-beam connects with Bern's "magic negating" swords, the force of impact, 1/2*mV^2 is going to account for mass "m" which is the I-beam's original mass, but will apply "V2"^2 which is the square of the enhanced velocity. So if the blow connects, it will hit with the square of whatever increase he applied. Double the speed, four times the damage, triple the speed, nine times the damage, and so on. If Bern somehow deflects the blow to either side, the unexpected extra mass will easily pull this guy off balance, at the very least. If this guy put in a large enough multiplier, he's going to find himself pulled forward into the ground regardless of whether he connects properly or not.

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #51 on: March 26, 2015, 06:28:14 am »
This is assuming that the momentum created by the magic can be interrupted as well. Those two little dinky pieces of metal shouldn't be able to stop a ton of steel even if they disrupt the magic that initially created the momentum.

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #52 on: March 26, 2015, 12:50:23 pm »
This is assuming that the momentum created by the magic can be interrupted as well. Those two little dinky pieces of metal shouldn't be able to stop a ton of steel even if they disrupt the magic that initially created the momentum.

True, the momentum and energy associated with it is already in the system. That said, I feel like I've created a monster by bringing up the actual physics in my original post about weight vs mass :P


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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #53 on: March 27, 2015, 12:23:37 am »
Woo hoo! Called it!  ;D Your turn, Bern!   8)
« Last Edit: March 27, 2015, 02:02:52 pm by SAGG »

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #54 on: March 27, 2015, 04:50:51 am »
So.... heh we have an eye opener here...

This seems to mean to me.. IF the source of magic here is the nanites... what they have done..I can only assume physics-wise... the swords are a nano-colony that is dormant until the two swords are used in hand together... the nanites communicate this as the key to do what they are supposed to do.. for the wielder of the swords. 

And what they do is swarm into the person holding the swords and bolster their molecular resilience... and ALSO send a signal to any other non-Indomitable Swords Nanites to cease functioning on contact.  Bern won't notice the effect but if the scene pans back and we see that Bern has cracked the coliseum floor from the impact with the I-Beam.. we know the tale .. her ENTIRE molecular structure has been ..for lack of better terms, 'hardened' to withstand ANY blow that is blocked with the swords.. and the ONLY thing that triggers that.. IS holding the swords.. both at the same time and blocking with them.

These nanites are some Very complex highly specific devices... how 'magical'...
« Last Edit: March 27, 2015, 04:53:46 am by sunphoenix »
"...no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free.  No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything - you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is Kill him." - Robert A. Heinlein


bulmabriefs144

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #55 on: March 27, 2015, 06:04:23 am »
Quote
So.... heh we have an eye opener here...

This seems to mean to me.. IF the source of magic here is the nanites... what they have done..I can only assume physics-wise... the swords are a nano-colony that is dormant until the two swords are used in hand together... the nanites communicate this as the key to do what they are supposed to do.. for the wielder of the swords. 

I personally don't believe the sword is "magic".

I believe Bern's sword works by being a substance which is intrinsically toxic to the Qualia (yes, remember them?) or which when used together, produces a shockwave (think EMP) that kills nearby Qualia. If the former is true, the substance could very well be something way more atomically dense than say steel, but light like aluminum.

Also, kudos for this scene. Given how Mister Lobster has been dragging his feet on narration, I fully expected a Naruto-style flashback of Bern's life without any resolution to this, and have a part 3 showing her block it.  ;D Okay, that would be terrible.

As it is, this short "goodbye everyone" followed by an Oh Crap moment. The expression on their faces is classic.

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #56 on: March 27, 2015, 07:29:49 am »
I hear this miniature Pete Abrams sound effect in my head in the third panel. thdunc.

I wonder what happened to the momentum.

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #57 on: March 27, 2015, 01:43:01 pm »
I wonder what happened to the momentum.

Me too...
"...no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free.  No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything - you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is Kill him." - Robert A. Heinlein


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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #58 on: March 27, 2015, 02:53:32 pm »
I happily have the two sides of looking at things. Her swords are magic,  so they do magic stuff to momentum.

The other side equates the magic on the ideal to a flight spell. It is accelerated through the air by the will of the wielder faster than mere muscle. I wouldn't expect Bern's swords cancelling flight magic to suddenly leave the flyer on the ground as if the magic never set them flying in the first place,  I'd expect them to suddenly tumble from the air at the speed they were going when the magic was cancelled.

All this really means to me is that Bern's swords are more than just magic cancelling.  After all,  just holding up the mass of that ibeam would be hard for Bern's physical strength even if it had been unmoving. So the swords are mighty enchantments with more subtlety than merely being magic cancelling.

Or I'll chalk it up to suspension of disbelief even if she should have been smashed by the rapidly traveling 500lb club. :)

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Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
« Reply #59 on: March 28, 2015, 02:28:02 am »
I hope this being a downward swing was intended and not a mistake.
Not so sure about that since fighting choeography has never been one of your strong points.
Basically, you can no longer get away with those swords just canceling magic now.