Author Topic: Chapter 42: Discussion  (Read 42133 times)

das-g

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Re: Chapter 42: Discussion
« Reply #90 on: December 06, 2014, 04:35:22 am »
If Warden so freely confirms Polly's assumption (that the person to be tortured would be a criminal who's chosen whipping as his penalty) to be correct, there must be another catch to option C, besides how its cruelty opposes Bernadette. (Assuming Warden isn't lying about this point, anyway.) Remember it's a person of their (Warden & co.'s) choosing. Whom are they gonna choose? To make this even harder on Bernadette, probably not some despicable person, but someone who got their points as (morally, though not legally) unmerited as Bern and Polly. Maybe even someone she knows and likes?

SAGG

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Re: Chapter 42: Discussion
« Reply #91 on: December 06, 2014, 08:54:32 am »
If Warden so freely confirms Polly's assumption (that the person to be tortured would be a criminal who's chosen whipping as his penalty) to be correct, there must be another catch to option C, besides how its cruelty opposes Bernadette. (Assuming Warden isn't lying about this point, anyway.) Remember it's a person of their (Warden & co.'s) choosing. Whom are they gonna choose? To make this even harder on Bernadette, probably not some despicable person, but someone who got their points as (morally, though not legally) unmerited as Bern and Polly. Maybe even someone she knows and likes?

Polly. Gotta be her...  :(

Azure Priest

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Re: Chapter 42: Discussion
« Reply #92 on: December 06, 2014, 10:30:10 pm »
Poly didn't choose lashing. Bern's father, on the other hand, might have, especially if he was desperate and got into a bit of a tiff with the guards when he tried to have Bern's new sword delivered to her.

SAGG

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Re: Chapter 42: Discussion
« Reply #93 on: December 07, 2014, 05:01:36 am »
Poly didn't choose lashing. Bern's father, on the other hand, might have, especially if he was desperate and got into a bit of a tiff with the guards when he tried to have Bern's new sword delivered to her.

Possibly. Didn't think about that. This would be a horrible irony, wouldn't it, since he was the one who put Bern in this spot in the first place...  >:(

Kiran

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Re: Chapter 42: Discussion
« Reply #94 on: December 07, 2014, 06:30:46 am »
I have to admitt the Warden just is doing her job, and isn't anti-Bern here or anything as I initially thought.
They ask, she honestly replies, if they won't ask in detail first then it's their fault.

As for Polly finally finding her own tongue here, I really don't buy her reasoning, after all the person can be a murderer/rapist or just monster in human skin who would deserve nothing else than being killed and that would be ok with Bern moral code, like she changed mindset about Bloody Mary in the past, but in the end it also might be just a person like Bern who defended or fought for his/her family and just being poor or in some unfortunate event put his/her in such position, and he/she could be tricked into accepting the lashing punishment than doing something else.

Polly can't be lashed cause she had choosen colloseum route.
I doubt it can be the father cause Bern's already paying for him by her own fate.
So by logic it's just some random prisoner who first had agreed to such form of punishment thinking he/she can live through it so he would get out in the most quick way.

And for me Bern won't agree to it if she won't be certain that the person she would have to torture/kill is a really bad one, and I don't think Warden will tell her, but maybe I'm wrong. I think next page Bern will ask about this, she won't get an answer she hoped for, and she will ask about option 1 details how that would be played. Maybe it's similiar to option 3 where torturing and killing someone is just a way of usual punishment there through lashing, that sexual slave is not directly connected to intercourse but maybe to provide just some services like striptease for whole night, but we will see.

Obviously we already know author will not back out from this cause it would mean wasting so many pages and judging how little time passed from beginning of this story, then a few months-one year timeskip is not possible, I think. I wonder if prisoner can mix the usual punishment, let's say 50 lashes per week and after being cured to be ready to fight in colloseum each time than taking whole lashing deal all at once.

And like someone above said since we are in the middle of the chapter about swords(nice it will be 60 pages one than just 30), I hope we will finally move to that soon, judging by the name used and knowledge that the pair of swords are some anti-magical weapons, I bet when used in pair one sword can dispel enchantments/magic with what it cuts/touches, and other makes the owner resistant to magic base attacks/mind tricks etc. And judging by how A rank people fight where the magical weapons are the things making the difference, if Bern would be able to remove that factor from the fights she might have even bigger chances even against 3 opponents who would not know what her swords might do yet, but for not even Bern doesn't know anything about them.

Enkida

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Re: Chapter 42: Discussion
« Reply #95 on: December 07, 2014, 09:27:47 am »
I can't even read the latest page (page 31) - every time I open it on my iPad I am immediately shunted to the app store for a game of some kind, *usually* Star Wars Commander.  It is really, really fvcking annoying.  Can you check the ads you're running on the page please?
2 kids = no more comics, but you can still find me doing BG portraits now and then

sunphoenix

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Re: Chapter 42: Discussion
« Reply #96 on: December 08, 2014, 06:58:55 am »
Boy!  I'm kinda at a loss here!  I got no idea what Bern will choose...!  I mean the obvious choices are... now so discussed in the actual comic between Bern, Polly and the Warden that... they almost seem too obvious! 

What if Bern chooses something completely unexpected?  It "seems" as if that is what our writer might be hinting at! 

I'm really not sure what Bern will choose!

The one option most have summarily dismissed is Option A, for clearly obvious reasons... but one has to wonder... just what does the Warden have in mind?

All of them have a catch... I'm sure of some sort.

"Would you prefer... to have your eye cut out to then be put into an unfair fight with three opponents, or torture and murder someone at random then fight that unfair fight with three opponents Both INSTEAD of having sex with a group of random strangers~ then fight that unfair fight with three opponents?"

A real "Hobson's Choice"... depending upon your personal ethics, dignity and honor!
« Last Edit: December 08, 2014, 07:03:22 am by sunphoenix »
"...no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free.  No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything - you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is Kill him." - Robert A. Heinlein


Andrea

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Re: Chapter 42: Discussion
« Reply #97 on: December 08, 2014, 08:33:06 am »
she will choose C

then she will have to kill either Polly or more probably his father.

sunphoenix

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Re: Chapter 42: Discussion
« Reply #98 on: December 08, 2014, 11:51:05 am »
Been lurking all day waiting for that update, but I didn't think Bern would choose Option C.  She agreed to option B... will she "see" it through?

Or is the writer going to stun us with an option "A" choice... ahem.. there are 28 more pages in this chapter!  :-[  {...is my tone a little too eagar perhaps? lols!}

ElfQuest's, bloodthirsty, passionate Go-Back leader, Khavi, wouldn't bat an eye at the choice!

"Alright! Who I do I have to fuck to get a decent fight out of around here? And is ole' Whitehair Cutter involved? heh, I like a little 'roll in the furs' ...spiced with the taste of Blood!!"
« Last Edit: December 08, 2014, 12:00:06 pm by sunphoenix »
"...no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free.  No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything - you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is Kill him." - Robert A. Heinlein


Kiran

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Re: Chapter 42: Discussion
« Reply #99 on: December 08, 2014, 12:06:01 pm »
Since the option A wasn't even taken into considereration both by Bern and Polly and they didn't ask Warden about it yet, then the author might be hinting it will be the real choice here, or at least it's time to discuss it now and then Bern will make a choice knowing everything fully.

To be honest I can't really see Bern doing it if it's indeed full night of becoming a piece of meat for some male strangers to use however they want.
Hell I can't even see her doing it even if it would be girl only event, even if that would be more comfortable to her sexuality.

Maybe Bern will choose it and will ask Warden for alcohol so she would just waste herself completely beforehand?

But it's also a bit sad seeing such plot choosen for a bit different reason, May plot - earn big pile of money and discover the secrets of the world, Crest plot - get magical sword, beat thugs right and left without any consequence at all and now go to save his princess, Bern plot - got locked up for doing right thing and saving her father and get a really ugly things done to her so she could see May faster.
One character would be bullied too much :P

And to be true if author wants to add some Bern changing her monogamous ways then I prefer her to do it with someone she has feelings already than with random strangers as her May/Polly dream a bit indicates.

SparcMan

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Re: Chapter 42: Discussion
« Reply #100 on: December 08, 2014, 06:52:18 pm »
Well. With Bern turning down option C and option B being revealed as being basically a trap I guess that amounts to either option A or Bern will turn down the offer. As someone already pointed out, turning down the offer is probably the most sensible option since Polly will be able to get out before long and maybe find some way to bail her out from the outside - If a sentence can be paid off in cash, Maytag will be able to pay it if she can accomplish the Thinman's task.

I have a feeling that she's probably going to go with option A though.

sunphoenix

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Re: Chapter 42: Discussion
« Reply #101 on: December 09, 2014, 04:40:23 pm »
I have a feeling that she's probably going to go with option A though.

How Terrible! {YES!!!}  ..er was that my outside voice?
"...no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free.  No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything - you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is Kill him." - Robert A. Heinlein


Azure Priest

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Re: Chapter 42: Discussion
« Reply #102 on: December 10, 2014, 04:59:13 am »
She outright refused "C" despite knowing that it's some suicidal idiot who wants to be lashed to death.

So it's either "A" or "B." She already chose "B" once already, but, unless the rollover pic is a lie, or she gets the eye healed in the near future, that seems out too...

Not looking forward to seeing "A" in action, to be honest.

maddhopps

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Re: Chapter 42: Discussion
« Reply #103 on: December 10, 2014, 09:14:03 am »
I seriously doubt that option A will just be about sex and that it could be a bigger trap then B.  If the Warden had phrased it as being a sex worker for multiple people in one night that would be one thing, but saying Bern would be a sex slave to a group could have other implications.

We saw in an earlier chapters that sex workers were not in short supply in Marvallo and that criminals had no rights there. Someone who would want a sex slave specifically from the coliseum would most likely do it for the purposes of finding a loophole to Marvallos no violence rule, so her physical safety and ability to fight can still be endangered with that choice.

I'm sure they'll lay out what exactly the implications of A before she decides whether or not to go with it.

On another note Polly desperately wants to protect Bern, but it looks like a small bit of frustration with Berns hesitation is starting to creep in.

Nettlekid

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Re: Chapter 42: Discussion
« Reply #104 on: December 10, 2014, 04:21:48 pm »
Ugh, it's not just Polly who's getting frustrated. This is going at such a snail's pace, I feel like they should just get on with it. So many panels are filled up by ellipses and "You know what to do!" "No you know what I know I won't!" again and again.
I'm also just getting really annoyed with Bern's naivety. This whole thing started because she tried to use violence to her advantage, forcing the healer to heal her father. If she's such a pacifist, she shouldn't have done that. But now that she's being forced to pay for her crime, she'd rather be maimed than harm someone who deserves it (despite already harming or threatening to harm someone who was kind of a dick but didn't deserve it as much as someone who she'd lash.)
She's being so unbelievably selfish. She goes on and on about doing anything for Maytag (enough of that already, geez) and then won't actually do anything. She won't fight, she won't get her hands dirty, and she's so close to losing an eye for no reason (because Polly's right, she won't win the fight with one lost eye and so she'll be exactly where she is, minus an eye.) If she was actually any semblance of a capable character, she should have just fought properly the first time around. Or in any of the actual matches. Why does she think she'll be any better in a rank-up match after suffering some kind of physical or psychological trauma than she was to start with?

sunphoenix

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Re: Chapter 42: Discussion
« Reply #105 on: December 11, 2014, 12:42:13 am »
You are missing one important point...  Poor sweet-hearted Bernadette has been duped into thinking or more believing that she deserves this punishment situation she is in.  Partially that is true... but she is also dealing with a lot of psychological guilt.  In the form of ...was I a good-enough daughter '?', should I have left Marvello in the first place '?', and do I even deserve Maytag's love'?'.  That seems to me part of the psychological turmoil poor Bern is going through.

As a character I like... I hope she does not choose "A" as I think it will do more damage to her mentally - reinforcing her "I'm being punished because I deserve this~", than chosing "B".

But, the Warden has indeed reading Bernadette well... and she is feeding her internal feelings of self guilt... I believe with Polly's revelation about option "B", she is ... expecting Bern to choose "A".  She was not going to mention... the facts about option "B"... but when Polly brought it up.. it changed the dynamic of Bern's choices.

I'm still not certain of the Warden's motivations... we'll have to see.
"...no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free.  No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything - you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is Kill him." - Robert A. Heinlein


mittfh

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Re: Chapter 42: Discussion
« Reply #106 on: December 11, 2014, 01:14:58 am »
Given options B and C have been explained in detail, I assume in the next few strips we'll find out what A would entail. Just as B and C turned out differently from how they were initially described (B being worse in that it would be a 3-on-1 fight and no healing; C being slightly milder in that the form of torture and execution was set to be what some already go through), A might be different as well (although probably on the worse side).

As for the disadvantages of B, if she had both swords, would that help reduce the odds against her? I seem to recall there was something special about them, but can't remember what it was or where we were told about them.

Of course, if she'd had Suspira's sword of healing (now weilded by Crest), then B would have been the obvious choice :) Especially if she was agile enough to get the three opponents to unintentionally land most of their blows on each other.

SAGG

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Re: Chapter 42: Discussion
« Reply #107 on: December 11, 2014, 04:52:36 am »
The warden's mistaken.  Bern certainly wasn't a pacifist when she made those people save her dad...  8)

maddhopps

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Re: Chapter 42: Discussion
« Reply #108 on: December 11, 2014, 07:54:35 am »
The Warden may lose some fingers thinking Bern is too much of a pacifist.  She may dislike violence, but she never seems to take it completely off the table. I think it may be the guilt of using violence to save her dad that is causing Bern to be more passive then usual, but it is kind of a stretch to say she is a pacifist.

Azure Priest

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Re: Chapter 42: Discussion
« Reply #109 on: December 11, 2014, 08:08:30 am »
The warden's mistaken.  Bern certainly wasn't a pacifist when she made those people save her dad...  8)

Actually, that healer had guards who drew steel on Bern first, and that's AFTER breaking her word that Bern had, if memory serves, 15 minutes to gather the needed funds, and then literally throwing her father in garbage after less than five.

Furthermore, the healer's father, after whining about how his business would be hurt after "giving in to a sob story" should have been informed on what happens when word gets out about the healer literally throwing patients in the trash, not being honest with clients, and having guards drawing steel on clients when they complain about being mistreated. Heck, Bern should have gotten a free healing out of that on the promise that word would NOT get out. "Right to be an asshole or not" those two may have gotten Bern into the dungeon, but they have done far more damage to their business than Bern, or her father's sob story, ever could. Really, if you have a choice, would you go to a doctor who treats you that way?

Sadly, the warden is correct. Bern's been a pacifist the whole time she was in the arena.

The official ranking test, Bern flat out refused to participate.

The first match... granted Poly took out their opposition too fast for Bern to actually do anything, but still.

Her second match, she stood back and let the other two "team-mates" do all the fighting.

The only time she fought was when the Warden attacked her, and that was self-defense. Even pacifists can defend themselves when cornered.

Kiran

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Re: Chapter 42: Discussion
« Reply #110 on: December 11, 2014, 09:37:15 am »
Did Bern attack anyone ever first?
I don't think so.

If I was Polly I would try to smack some sense into Bern in literal sense.

Would Bern even fight back in A rank promotion match or she would too just waited till they would defeat her first?

It's first time I already lost patience with Bern, it's just so slowly developing and again we are at the beginning situation when Warden says Bern is weak cause she is pacifist, wasn't it said already? I have to remember what takes week for us to read means just around a minute of conversation in comic itself.

Rethinking that choosing option A or B will enforce Bern way of pacifistic thinking, she will sacrifice her own body and mind or an eye well being just for the sake of not fightning for herself, it's indeed frustrating seeing that option C is in the end a good option if the person there had choosen the punishment willingly.

So what we will get, Bern starts crying and choosing A or B, going through either, then being emotionally and/or physically devastated and going for the rank A match which she will win with anti-magical swords hack?

Kinda shame that bern herself has Polly feelings and what she had done for her here in the ass, if she will agree to option A she will also betray May, who actually remained loyal to her for once in her part of story.

And judging by Warden reply everything is going as she expected and maybe even planned.
Just completely speculating maybe there aren't any rank up options and Warden came with this just to test Bern resolve, if she would have choosen correct option from start she would give her a chance, if not then Bern be damned.

mittfh

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Re: Chapter 42: Discussion
« Reply #111 on: December 11, 2014, 11:55:06 am »
Bern's probably more a Technical Pacifist / Mama Bear. Normally averse to violence, but threaten someone she cares about and it's probably a good idea to start running away, pretty darn quickly...

maddhopps

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Re: Chapter 42: Discussion
« Reply #112 on: December 12, 2014, 02:59:53 am »
Bern has had a couple of moments were she engaged in unnecessary violence(knocking out Seraph after he killed Clairen and was walking away and smacking Suspiria after she used that truth spell). While you can make arguments for both those moments being reasonable and/or justifiable, neither comes off as things a pacifist would do. Also the bar for pacifism is high in a comic that has a character who advocates for a girl who ate her arm and befriends a guy who once tortured her.

I wonder what Polly's plan is now, maybe going for S rank? Don't think the Warden would go for Polly using her marks to pay off Bern's or letting her do one of those options in Bern's benefit. Maybe she figures she'll have a better chance to free Bern from outside the Coliseum. I can see her convincing the warden into giving her a chance for an S rank match by arguing Bern was holding her back.

Azure Priest

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Re: Chapter 42: Discussion
« Reply #113 on: December 12, 2014, 07:37:06 am »
Poly's forgetting that she's already an A rank. This "deal" is for an A-rank-up test.

Warden has a really twisted view of what a warrior is. A warrior fights when he HAS to.

Someone who fights only because he ENJOYS IT is not a warrior, but a sadistic thug.

Stargoat

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Re: Chapter 42: Discussion
« Reply #114 on: December 12, 2014, 11:14:50 am »
Poly makes an interesting point.  If the Marvolo rules are such that someone can always volunteer to take another person's debt under any circumstances, Poly could kill that fellow rather than Bern.

But more interestingly is the idea of guilds.  If a guild existed, then they could all agree to take 10 lashes and spare any individual member from too much punishment.  Say, a baker's guild that had additional benefits, like many medieval guilds did.

Shazam

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Re: Chapter 42: Discussion
« Reply #115 on: December 12, 2014, 05:57:18 pm »
Poly makes an interesting point.  If the Marvolo rules are such that someone can always volunteer to take another person's debt under any circumstances, Poly could kill that fellow rather than Bern.

But more interestingly is the idea of guilds.  If a guild existed, then they could all agree to take 10 lashes and spare any individual member from too much punishment.  Say, a baker's guild that had additional benefits, like many medieval guilds did.

The latter idea is interesting. But this isn't a debt. This doesn't pay anything directly. This is just a question of Bern's ranking and where they think she should be placed.

I still enjoy this chapter, though perhaps the pacing is a bit slow. On the other hand, this should be an important moment of crisis for Bern. The reason it may seem melodramatic is that till now Bern is frankly not a very deeply sketched char. She's trained all her life to be a swordswoman, has killed and maimed many people and yet is this sort of blandly pacifistic, sexually inhibited cut out. Hopefully out of this comes a more human character, and one that isn't so two dimensionally dull. She's seen and done many things, and again trained her whole life in a particular discipline that makes her unrealistic.  She needs some hard choices and some sacrifices of her improbable innocence. (I know this was a harsh paragraph, luckily she's a fictional character and won't be reading this, so hopefully haven't hurt her feelings :P)

I'm quite glad that both May and Bern are facing inconsistencies in their sense of self, Bern with her faux morality and May with her emotional issues. I'm curious to see what is in store for Crest similar as the mostly invisible co-main party member. It'll be nice to see him grow a bit.

IronSoul

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Re: Chapter 42: Discussion
« Reply #116 on: December 12, 2014, 07:48:16 pm »
Poly's forgetting that she's already an A rank. This "deal" is for an A-rank-up test.

Warden has a really twisted view of what a warrior is. A warrior fights when he HAS to.

Someone who fights only because he ENJOYS IT is not a warrior, but a sadistic thug.

To be fair, Bern does kinda have to fight at the moment if she ever wants to be with Maytag again.

Kiran

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Re: Chapter 42: Discussion
« Reply #117 on: December 14, 2014, 06:33:25 am »
Poly's forgetting that she's already an A rank. This "deal" is for an A-rank-up test.

Warden has a really twisted view of what a warrior is. A warrior fights when he HAS to.

Someone who fights only because he ENJOYS IT is not a warrior, but a sadistic thug.
No offence but a warrior should be able to fight for herself especially in such situation when an alternative to it is to literally and intentionally hurting herself, mind or body alike, hurting Polly and also May feelings with A-B choices.

I really, really didn't expect for Bern to turn into such a weak willed person, I'm disappointed.

And I don't understand Polly action here, I know she's desperate but this promotion deals were only for Bern A rank test possibility. I could see Polly being able to offer herself to do them but that should only affect her own part of marks and her own quicker promotion, if Warden agreed cause for her position it would be better if someone did them anyway.

But I'm pretty sure Polly will want to do them instead of Bern to earn Bern's promotion so she would not have to suffer, and that I think Warden can't agree to, more I really hope the Warden will decline her if that's the case. Polly already took half of Bern punishment of 500 marks which means 10 years in prison in worst scenario, I don't want to see her now sacrificing herself again for that to bail Bern out again from tough spot.

Maybe I'm naive but if Warden would really agree to Polly taking Bern tasks, then I would really hope that Bern would step up and do things herself for once.
But for now Bern is just crying mess.

Poly makes an interesting point.  If the Marvolo rules are such that someone can always volunteer to take another person's debt under any circumstances, Poly could kill that fellow rather than Bern.

But more interestingly is the idea of guilds.  If a guild existed, then they could all agree to take 10 lashes and spare any individual member from too much punishment.  Say, a baker's guild that had additional benefits, like many medieval guilds did.
But wouldn't such rules be completely pointless?
If they would exist then Polly could take all of Bern's marks on her own account now, not only half, and with being in A rank she would be out in less than a year anyway while Bern could go out just now right away, trying to contact someone who could pay off Polly remaining marks so she too could go out quicker.

Stargoat

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Re: Chapter 42: Discussion
« Reply #118 on: December 14, 2014, 09:29:21 am »

Poly makes an interesting point.  If the Marvolo rules are such that someone can always volunteer to take another person's debt under any circumstances, Poly could kill that fellow rather than Bern.

But more interestingly is the idea of guilds.  If a guild existed, then they could all agree to take 10 lashes and spare any individual member from too much punishment.  Say, a baker's guild that had additional benefits, like many medieval guilds did.
But wouldn't such rules be completely pointless?
If they would exist then Polly could take all of Bern's marks on her own account now, not only half, and with being in A rank she would be out in less than a year anyway while Bern could go out just now right away, trying to contact someone who could pay off Polly remaining marks so she too could go out quicker.

Only if you were rich.  The poor people would still be screwed over.

Shazam

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Re: Chapter 42: Discussion
« Reply #119 on: December 15, 2014, 03:34:43 pm »
An interesting tact by Polly, not really relevant as the question isn't what rank she is capable of, it's what rank Bern is and Polly performing a task still doesn't address the question of Bern's willpower.

Mostly OOC I hope it isn't offloaded into some morally complex issue of Polly being faced with whipping Bern's father to death because that was the price he paid to have the blades delivered to Bern (or something similarly interesting, and yet a distraction from the chance for Bern to become more than a cut out prudish but likeable foil for Maytag.)