Author Topic: Chapter 42: Discussion  (Read 27162 times)

SAGG

  • Red Light Worker
  • **
  • Posts: 217
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 42: Discussion
« Reply #210 on: February 15, 2015, 11:48:47 am »
I am outspoken in my view Bern has to get some depth as a character, and have to be more than a mary sue uber-cute, uber-innocent, uber-pacific, uber-skilled swordswoman. However, I admit after the Warden's speech, it does make you want to see Bern show her up.

As for those still stuck on the sex part of choice A. I was thinking. Take that out of the equation.

Bernadette commits a crime for a loved one. This isn't uncommon in RL, people stealing to get money for family, mugging, embezzling, etc. Perhaps for food money, perhaps to get someone else out of trouble etc.

She's convicted and has to go to jail. (Now here we have the one oddity, which doesn't even really make too much sense in the Flipside world, but we'll go with it. Her pal Polly claims to have been involved.. or somehow volunteers to go to jail with her as part of what turns out to be a horribly conceived plan.)

Bern gets to jail and assess her to figure out what job she can do in the jail, work the kitchens, make license plates, bust rocks. Good behavior and demonstrating value to society with better jobs can get you parole sooner. Despite her pal Polly prepping her for this, Bern refuses to participate and is set to busting rocks. It's going to be a long time till she's out.

Polly again tries to help, and goes to bust rocks with her. In fact, she ends up doing her work and Bern's. It all gets done, but it's noticed that Bern once again did nothing. They separate Polly from her finally and let her know she'll be in jail for the max sentence with no real chance of parole. But hey, she has some choices. She can take 10 lashes, or lash someone else.

(I'm leaving out the mutilate element in this to keep things simple.)

Bern's primary motivation has always to be the moral, heroic savior knight type. Period. She obviously can't go simply lashing others. Then Polly steps in again and says, no no. Rather than you taking 10 lashes, I joined you in jail for a crime of your choosing, you refused to prove yourself at orientation, you slacked off when we were paired together, and now I'm going to take 100 lashes to your 10. But really, don't fight me on this because you're so special to me. And so Bern being weak doesn't fight her on it, doesn't take accountability, and lets her friend suffer 10x what she'd have had to for her transgression. That isn't very chivalric, no matter how you want to parse it.

There is nothing moral to letting your friend do this. And if you do want to dwell on the punishment being sexual, it's somehow okay for Polly who has done absolutely nothing wrong to have to suffer ten times as much as Bern in order for Bern to stay pure? Polly is worth less? Polly who is an actual and literal innocent in all of this and has only sought to help her friend at every step, can be sacrificed to a far worse fate and this can ever be justified on Bern's part? It isn't Bern's obligation to make sure her friend doesn't suffer any more than necessary due to her repeated bad choices?

I certainly don't like the Warden's speech in the last page and would love to see her wipe the mat with the three she's facing. Heck, it would be great to see her beat them and then challenge the Warden for a climactic denouement. However, no matter how skilled she is martially, it isn't in any way a mitigating factor. At least in this arc, she's weak, cowardly, unheroic, and in situations where she can't just beat people up to get her way (which is what got her into this mess) she'll let even innocent loved ones suffer rather than take personal accountability.

And you suggest...what? The alternative that Bern should lose (i.e. die) to atone for her wussyness? I think what the warden's saying is actually what Bern's going to do--develop a thick skin, but Bern's going to do it BERN'S way. Bern has no choice but to fight, and fight now for Polly as well as herself. Bern's either going to win, or put up such a fight that the crowd (and the warden for that matter) will HAVE to respect her. Bern will in turn have her confidence built up and meet the warden's standard...

Shazam

  • Collared Pet
  • *
  • Posts: 59
  • Better than Morning Coffee
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 42: Discussion
« Reply #211 on: February 15, 2015, 12:02:14 pm »
I'd like to see Bern have to show strength and earn success in a venue that doesn't involve martial prowess. I actually really want her to grow into the hero and knight she has dreamt of being. If all she does is win because she's super powerful now that she has the swords and a grievance over her treatment in the arena, then all we have a is a power up, not character growth.

Her character so far is very shallow and weak. Sort of a cut out. Good characters are complex, and are often defined by loss and/or sacrifices and the reaction to these things. Bern has never really been much more than the straightman for May. My hope for this arc (and the separate solo arcs for Crest and May) is to have the characters come out with a much greater depth and internal strength than they went in, and for us to have a better sense of the whole of the characters.

SAGG

  • Red Light Worker
  • **
  • Posts: 217
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 42: Discussion
« Reply #212 on: February 15, 2015, 03:09:50 pm »
I'd like to see Bern have to show strength and earn success in a venue that doesn't involve martial prowess. I actually really want her to grow into the hero and knight she has dreamt of being. If all she does is win because she's super powerful now that she has the swords and a grievance over her treatment in the arena, then all we have a is a power up, not character growth.

Her character so far is very shallow and weak. Sort of a cut out. Good characters are complex, and are often defined by loss and/or sacrifices and the reaction to these things. Bern has never really been much more than the straightman for May. My hope for this arc (and the separate solo arcs for Crest and May) is to have the characters come out with a much greater depth and internal strength than they went in, and for us to have a better sense of the whole of the characters.

Going back to my point: How this will be achieved? What must Bern do to reach your point without the martial prowess? These people want blood. They're animals, basically, though the warden is at the least giving Bern a tiny chance. Bern has to win, or at least fight like mad to gain their so-called "respect"...

Shazam

  • Collared Pet
  • *
  • Posts: 59
  • Better than Morning Coffee
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 42: Discussion
« Reply #213 on: February 15, 2015, 03:37:35 pm »
Good question I suppose. I'm looking forward to see how Brian manages to do it.

In a general way,  I'd have hoped she'd have stopped Polly from taking on more suffering to pay for Bern's choices.

From a story perspective,  we're now in a scene that requires martial prowess. If you're asking what I'd like to see her do in this scene,  I'd like to see her be successful. I'd also in a greater story sense like to see her save Polly by offering to take on something that will represent a cost to Bern and which will represent growth and a turning point.

Again,  I assume this is the point of this arc. I'm very engaged to see how Brion manages to do so.  We have the arena as forge,  and Bern is the steel.  What can come of this will determine the balance and temper of the blade.

What would you want to see?

SAGG

  • Red Light Worker
  • **
  • Posts: 217
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 42: Discussion
« Reply #214 on: February 15, 2015, 05:16:59 pm »
Good question I suppose. I'm looking forward to see how Brian manages to do it.

In a general way,  I'd have hoped she'd have stopped Polly from taking on more suffering to pay for Bern's choices.

From a story perspective,  we're now in a scene that requires martial prowess. If you're asking what I'd like to see her do in this scene,  I'd like to see her be successful. I'd also in a greater story sense like to see her save Polly by offering to take on something that will represent a cost to Bern and which will represent growth and a turning point.

Again,  I assume this is the point of this arc. I'm very engaged to see how Brion manages to do so.  We have the arena as forge,  and Bern is the steel.  What can come of this will determine the balance and temper of the blade.

What would you want to see?

I've pointed out that I expect Bern to win, though perhaps it probably won't be outright. Hence, I added that at the least she'll put up one heck of a battle so intense, that the crowd (and eventually the warden) will respect her, and she'll move up in rank. What I believe these so-called people really want is for Bern to fight like the others. Again, I don't expect her to die, for that would take out half the duo, which would drastically change the comic. If Bern doesn't win OUTRIGHT, it'll be because one of the others will hurt her by getting in a lucky blow, but I repeat, she WON'T be killed--unless there's some sort of spell I'm missing that would bring her back to life. Could Polly try to interfere? Doubt it, unless Polly wants the warden to take her out lickety-split...

SAGG

  • Red Light Worker
  • **
  • Posts: 217
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 42: Discussion
« Reply #215 on: February 16, 2015, 04:56:14 am »
Okay, who here other than myself thinks that page 59 is almost a duplicate of page 58?  :P Enough gab! Let's get it on, please!

Shazam

  • Collared Pet
  • *
  • Posts: 59
  • Better than Morning Coffee
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 42: Discussion
« Reply #216 on: February 16, 2015, 09:11:54 am »
I now expect an errant blow to slice off one side of Bern's father's mustache, revealing more of his face and his true identity which will have greater ramifications as we find out he is also Crest's father, which will lead to some interesting questions of his triple identity and what's really happening at the core of the Flipside world.

Shazam

  • Collared Pet
  • *
  • Posts: 59
  • Better than Morning Coffee
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 42: Discussion
« Reply #217 on: February 17, 2015, 07:19:36 am »
As aside, hope Polly doesn't leap in to help Bern and get killed redshirt style in order to give Bern her motivation to win.

IronSoul

  • Tender Young Virgin
  • *
  • Posts: 21
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Chapter 42: Discussion
« Reply #218 on: February 18, 2015, 08:14:16 am »
We're probably not going to find out for a while. Next chapter is probably going to focus on Maytag or Crest.

All in all, this chapter was really....slow to me. I understand what was being done, but it seemed to drag for way too long. Though in all fairness, it may do better in paper format.

Stargoat

  • Hot Streaker
  • **
  • Posts: 444
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 42: Discussion
« Reply #219 on: February 20, 2015, 09:47:16 am »
Bern doesn't look like she's in a forgiving mood right now. Hmmmm.

Brion Foulke

  • Administrator
  • Experimental
  • *****
  • Posts: 771
    • AOL Instant Messenger - flipsider99
    • View Profile
    • www.flipsidecomics.com
    • Email
Re: Chapter 42: Discussion
« Reply #220 on: February 20, 2015, 11:15:11 am »
All in all, this chapter was really....slow to me. I understand what was being done, but it seemed to drag for way too long. Though in all fairness, it may do better in paper format.

You're not wrong, but a requirement of suspense is that it is slow.  I think it'll read a lot better in paper format thanks to the pacing.  I'll try to make up for it with faster storytelling whenever I'm not going for suspense.

wowfood

  • Tender Young Virgin
  • *
  • Posts: 11
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 42: Discussion
« Reply #221 on: February 21, 2015, 04:56:27 am »
As aside, hope Polly doesn't leap in to help Bern and get killed redshirt style in order to give Bern her motivation to win.

That's actually kind've what I expect to happen in a way.  Warden just said that bern getting sexed would give her a hatred for the coliseum, a hatred she'd hone into a blade and become an unstoppable warrior.  Something that polly only helped dull further.

I reckon the fight is going to start and either polly, or berns father are going to step in and get cut down in front of bern at which point we'll see some kind of magic empowered super saiyan bern with whirlling swords of death and destruction.

And considering the point system they use for this, kill 3 s ranks, in a single battle, I imagine she'd rack up the points pretty quickly, and if she is that powerful they'd probably start hurling her into more slaughter matches, many of them vs one of her so she'd be paid off silly fast and out of there in no time.

Just my hunch (she can't stay in there forever after all)

mittfh

  • Rose Petal Acolyte
  • **
  • Posts: 116
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 42: Discussion
« Reply #222 on: February 21, 2015, 06:09:53 am »
And now Brion's been evil and left us hanging off the edge of a cliff for an interlude... :D

But, hey, at least he's giving us the chance to vote on whether we continue to see how Bern copes in the fight or flip back to the other two simultaneous arcs (Maytag in The Dark Cell, Crest finding Suspira and trying to make sense of what's going on)...

TheFinalFan

  • Fresh Meat
  • Posts: 1
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 42: Discussion
« Reply #223 on: February 25, 2015, 06:37:50 pm »
Hello, everyone!
I just wanted to know why everyone in the place Bernadette is stuck in are complete jerks, especially the woman with the odd tattoos on her face?

Smiles

  • Nymphomaniac!!
  • *****
  • Posts: 12641
  • Easter is gonna be great!Heard he will Rise Again!
    • View Profile
    • AnimeCentral
    • Email
Re: Chapter 42: Discussion
« Reply #224 on: February 25, 2015, 06:53:05 pm »
i'm just looking forward to bern kicking their asses. lolz
Just loving it! :-*
let's sit and chat a while and see if I don't make you smile .;)

Pinkk

  • Tender Young Virgin
  • *
  • Posts: 18
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 42: Discussion
« Reply #225 on: February 26, 2015, 12:05:51 pm »
i'm just looking forward to bern kicking their asses. lolz

Agreed!