Author Topic: Chapter 39: Discussion  (Read 14084 times)

Brion Foulke

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Chapter 39: Discussion
« on: December 02, 2013, 07:48:44 am »
This is the thread for discussing Chapter 39: Warden of the Colosseum.  Bernadette and Polly have a hard struggle ahead of them in the colosseum.  Can they handle it?

Azure Priest

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Re: Chapter 39: Discussion
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2013, 06:19:17 am »
For rapists, murderers and armed robbers, I agree with the "warden." But for people who get attacked with swords and then labeled criminals for defending themselves, sorry, but I wonder how you would handle being a "criminal," sir.

sunphoenix

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Re: Chapter 39: Discussion
« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2013, 08:47:06 pm »
I guess they figure... "If were going to put people in a arena to be murdered... er I mean 'publicly executed'... what harm is there in a bit of public rape?  After all they are not being killed...?"

Yeah.  This is one UGLY society concealed under their blanket excuse of 'safety through absolute non-violence/conflict or use of force'.. its all bullshit!  I hope Bern and Polly burn it all down!
"...no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free.  No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything - you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is Kill him." - Robert A. Heinlein


Azure Priest

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Re: Chapter 39: Discussion
« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2013, 09:14:05 am »
I guess they figure... "If were going to put people in a arena to be murdered... er I mean 'publicly executed'... what harm is there in a bit of public rape?  After all they are not being killed...?"

Yeah.  This is one UGLY society concealed under their blanket excuse of 'safety through absolute non-violence/conflict or use of force'.. its all bullshit!  I hope Bern and Polly burn it all down!

It's a good thing for the "welcomer" that Bern and Poly are here in restraints, because both of them know first hand how NOT FUNNY rape is.

In fact, Bern has experienced two "near rapes" on screen. Once by force from the "Knight" in her home town, the other under an aphrodisiac enchantment without her knowledge while her "attacker" was ALSO under the influence of an enchantment against his will, namely a possession potion.

As if Bern actually NEEDED yet another reason to hate this "one law" country.

Flipthecannon

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Re: Chapter 39: Discussion
« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2013, 10:54:53 am »
So this guy seems to be on "yeah I don't really care" pills.

sunphoenix

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Re: Chapter 39: Discussion
« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2013, 09:56:34 pm »
OMG!  These 'people' are sooo fucked up!  Are they ALL this self-repressed and neurotically fixated on their own twisted issues ?!?!?

Please, Please PLEASE Bern and Polly.. kill a lot of them!  They are a disgusting confused mockery of what civilized people should be!
"...no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free.  No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything - you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is Kill him." - Robert A. Heinlein


Azure Priest

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Re: Chapter 39: Discussion
« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2013, 05:26:22 am »
Oh. Dear. Someone please, please just shoot him. THIS is what the gladiators encounter and the head honchos WONDER why people protest? Good grief. Maybe someone should let Mr. "Warden" meet this guy here while he's in restraints and unable to leave and see if he still feels the protests are "meaningless."

Flipthecannon

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Re: Chapter 39: Discussion
« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2013, 06:33:37 am »
"Anyways I've been monologueing and not paying attention for a while.  Time to get you to...Hey where'd they go?"

sunphoenix

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Re: Chapter 39: Discussion
« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2013, 10:07:04 am »
Yeah.  The ONLY reason he is bringing this up is despite what he is saying -  RAPING the two lovely young women {Bernadette and Polly} is EXACTLY whats on his mind and he'd enjoy doing so! 

He just is too repressed, self-absorbed, and in denial to admit that ugly truth about himself.  Because he KNOWS - regardless of what their society claims what they are doing here is WRONG and he's ashamed of the fact.  And the fact that secretly.. he likes the idea of doing something so despicable to Bern and Polly!!

People DO NOT like to honestly look at themselves in the mirror... self-evaluating their motivations and morals.

Many times they can't bring themselves to admit how truly ugly they really are inside.. where it REALLY matters!!

"You'd be amazed at what you can do when you don't have to look at yourself in the mirror...", - Kevin Bacon, 'Hollow Man'
« Last Edit: December 11, 2013, 10:12:28 am by sunphoenix »
"...no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free.  No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything - you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is Kill him." - Robert A. Heinlein


sunphoenix

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Re: Chapter 39: Discussion
« Reply #9 on: December 12, 2013, 06:02:29 am »
Pep-Talk... E.P.I.C. FAIL!!!

You gotta admit.. the girls reaction is not surprizing... being manacled, unarmed with this casual insensitive creap going on like that with two armed and armored guards behind them...

Yeah... pretty frightening and affronting...

Stay strong girls!  Your not beat yet!  Give them HELL!
"...no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free.  No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything - you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is Kill him." - Robert A. Heinlein


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Re: Chapter 39: Discussion
« Reply #10 on: December 12, 2013, 08:56:09 am »
This raises an interesting question.  If the state has the right to force you to hard labor, do they have the right to rape you?  After all, both are involuntary uses of the body.  Moral issues aside, what's the difference?

sunphoenix

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Re: Chapter 39: Discussion
« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2013, 10:11:33 am »
Ouch!  Good Question!

Consider that the state can order one institutionalized {which is the same effectively as criminal incarceration} and require one to take medicine drugs to keep one from being a public danger to oneself and others.

At what point do we stop this?

Punishment could be anything the state deems appropriate.  Some countries ...even today, cutting hands off convicted thieves is the usual punishment.  Or even today its a imprisoning offense {potentially.. even death} to be found out to be living a gay lifestyle.

At what point does punishment not become justice and only purely punitive?

Should we be eye-for-eye.. and have all Rapists RAPED?

Cruel and unusual... is such a vague term in regards to what is unjust punishment.

Would state sentenced Rape with a condem.. be considered cruel or unusual if it were the normal practice?

Eh.. hard question to answer.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2013, 10:25:37 am by sunphoenix »
"...no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free.  No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything - you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is Kill him." - Robert A. Heinlein


Azure Priest

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Re: Chapter 39: Discussion
« Reply #12 on: December 16, 2013, 07:16:42 am »
This raises an interesting question.  If the state has the right to force you to hard labor, do they have the right to rape you?  After all, both are involuntary uses of the body.  Moral issues aside, what's the difference?

There is a BIG difference between hard labor, and rape, good sir.

The former is a valid approach to pay for debts both public and private. You WANT big, strong, possibly VIOLENT people doing something constructive instead of sitting in a cell with other like-minded individuals doing nothing but plotting mischief.

The latter is a wholly unwarranted violation of everything that makes you human, and should in no way be tolerated, let alone endorsed.

Furthermore, rape is not JUST "an abuse of the body" but a direct assault on the mind, "heart" and "soul" of a person, and really has no place in any civilized society despite what certain Indian (the country) or Pakistani tribal sects preach. (Yes, some tribal councils actually SENTENCE girls to be raped because they want to punish the family by public shaming.)

If you REALLY want to get into "An Eye for an Eye" the code of Hamurabi condemns rape by the same standard as murder, ie DEATH.

I'm not entirely sure, but from what I've read on modern psychology, I doubt raping rapists would work. In fact, some rapists ARE rapists specifically because they WERE raped themselves.

As for today's installment, "Getting ranked," this I can endorse. This prison could have done well without the "welcomer."
« Last Edit: December 16, 2013, 07:50:51 am by Azure Priest »

Stargoat

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Re: Chapter 39: Discussion
« Reply #13 on: December 16, 2013, 09:47:43 am »
This raises an interesting question.  If the state has the right to force you to hard labor, do they have the right to rape you?  After all, both are involuntary uses of the body.  Moral issues aside, what's the difference?

There is a BIG difference between hard labor, and rape, good sir.

The former is a valid approach to pay for debts both public and private. You WANT big, strong, possibly VIOLENT people doing something constructive instead of sitting in a cell with other like-minded individuals doing nothing but plotting mischief.

The latter is a wholly unwarranted violation of everything that makes you human, and should in no way be tolerated, let alone endorsed.

Furthermore, rape is not JUST "an abuse of the body" but a direct assault on the mind, "heart" and "soul" of a person, and really has no place in any civilized society despite what certain Indian (the country) or Pakistani tribal sects preach. (Yes, some tribal councils actually SENTENCE girls to be raped because they want to punish the family by public shaming.)

If you REALLY want to get into "An Eye for an Eye" the code of Hamurabi condemns rape by the same standard as murder, ie DEATH.

I'm not entirely sure, but from what I've read on modern psychology, I doubt raping rapists would work. In fact, some rapists ARE rapists specifically because they WERE raped themselves.

As for today's installment, "Getting ranked," this I can endorse. This prison could have done well without the "welcomer."

Except of course that your entire argument was based around morality, namely that which society has taught us.  Your heart and soul argument is exclusively morality.  What if there was a society in which hard labor was considered anathema, and mores were put in place regarding its usage.  The original question stands.

I did not mention an eye for an eye.  I did not mention , though I am well aware of, what they do in Pakistan and other Muslim societies and it is anathema.  Those in power who do such things, according to my standards, should be killed.  Nevertheless, my original question stands.  The question was what the state has a right to do - they have a right to force you into hard labor, they have a right to kill you, do they have a right to rape you?  If no, why not?  And if you say no, how many times have you been through airport security in the last decade?

Your argument was bad and you should feel bad.

sunphoenix

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Re: Chapter 39: Discussion
« Reply #14 on: December 16, 2013, 12:41:38 pm »
Now now... Azure was indeed coming from a moralistic view... not any less valid.. though as you point out he did miss your point.  But he is arguing a different aspect of this debate.

But to your point... my answer is this, "The Ruling Authority has the 'right' to inflict whatever punishment the society of the governed has deemed to be an appropriate punishment  for those that break it laws and show disregard for its officer and ministers enforcing that law."

The idea of right or wrong only comes in if the purpose of those punishments is to see to it justice is dealt out fairly and equitably to the masses governed - which again gets back to that 'grey' area of morality.

Does the state have the right to sentence someone to rape?  Yes, if those being governed have agreed that is justice.

Do I personally feel that is justice? HELL NO!  But I'm not the one being asked if this is an acceptable law of the land.  I'd firmly be on the side of those saying NO.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2013, 12:56:47 pm by sunphoenix »
"...no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free.  No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything - you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is Kill him." - Robert A. Heinlein


Daisuki-chan

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Re: Chapter 39: Discussion
« Reply #15 on: December 16, 2013, 07:44:49 pm »
Hard labor as a punishment simply becomes for-profit slavery (as opposed to "just" slavery) in favor of the owners and managers of prisons. Unspecified rape could just as "easily" become for-profit (and/or for-pleasure (of the raping, non-paying authorities), of course) sex slavery (as opposed to "just" slavery) for the same. I can see some people suiciding to avoid hard labor. Maybe it's not the normal response, but I don't think that suicide is the normal response to being raped, either. How horrible (or not horrible, as raping Maytag would be to Maytag via book 0) things are is completely variable, and it's meaningless to impose some standard level of minimum or maximum reaction of any polarity (negative or positive (or neutral, but absolute neutrality (the only true kind) is quite unlikely)) to any given event (not that each event is actually even "the same" as another of its classification, either). Anyway, if hard labor to for example repay debts (and line some authorities' pockets as well, because this will obviously happen) is acceptable, then what about women with debts? Hard labor for them, too? They wouldn't wouldn't usually repay their debts as fast as men would (per debt unit, not per debt percentage, which obviously varies with the total size of the debt), but physically or psychologically weak men wouldn't repay their debts as fast as "normal" men, either, especially if they killed themselves because they couldn't take it. Alternatively, if the hard labor was the same for all regardless of "ability" (which usually ignores the mind even though there is no possibility of doing something if the will to do so doesn't exist, and of course if the will doesn't exist there is likely no or at least insufficient will to gain the will, etc., recursively, either, making it impossible to gain the will, making it impossible to do the something) some would be harmed much more than others. If women can't get hard labor then the punishment is sexist. Whether that's a worthy ideal is up to each individual. It's not to me.

sunphoenix

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Re: Chapter 39: Discussion
« Reply #16 on: December 17, 2013, 07:56:23 am »
Hmmm... so if I get what your saying Daisuki is that you are postulating that any physical punishment dictated by the state that might be considered "involuntary use of a criminal/ incarceraes' body...", is inherently sexist weather its hard labor or forced sexual intercourse because men and women's bodies {thus physical capacities} are different.

Criminal sentencing of physical labor or sex {one might include ANY physical activity as punishment} to pay a criminal's sentence might be more appropriate if the criminal was given the choice of physical labors to 'pay-off' their sentence.  Is that your point?

One might point out this is a very slippery policy and ripe for corruption.

...

And on the comic.. I think this over-eager rapist/slasher is going to end up with that blade shoved some place very uncomfortable...!!! lol!
"...no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free.  No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything - you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is Kill him." - Robert A. Heinlein


Daisuki-chan

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Re: Chapter 39: Discussion
« Reply #17 on: December 17, 2013, 06:23:30 pm »
Well, I pointed out that both rape and hard labor as punishment can be corrupted (which is an argument against both to me). Anyway, you missed my point that even though men and women have different capabilities in some areas on average, this doesn't mean every man is more able to take hard labor than every woman, or that there aren't men with less capability than the average woman. If you decide that the average has to represent the individual then you're arbitrarily punishing some individuals and not others (even if it's optional this is unfair because capabilities vary, which makes the punishment optionally easier for some but not others) based simply on one arbitrary group they're a part of. You could just as well use hair color instead of sex to get results that are just as stupid, but different. If you can only assign hard labor or rape as a punishment to men then it is sexist against men (and vice versa if only women received those punishments). I don't think either hard labor or rape are good punishments, but it's not like one is always worse than the other to every last individual. They are both things often considered vile slavery and/or torture if forced on someone in a way that isn't a punishment (i.e. for the sake of sadism, greed, lust, etc.) and both can ruin lives and incite suicides (murder on the other hand always "ruins" or at least ends a life, so capital punishment is obviously the least physically tolerable punishment and annihilates the existence of the psychological as well), so it's meaningless to say that rape isn't okay as a punishment but hard labor is. Especially when we know that hard labor is not evenly tolerable among differing individuals even if one only considers the physical and ignores the psychological (as is commonly done). I could discuss other punishments, but that would branch the discussion a lot more and would have to delve into how important revenge, deterrence, and rehabilitation are. In many places revenge is apparently the most important thing by far (to the point where the punishment is far harsher than the crime), and I don't mean only in the third world.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2013, 06:28:10 pm by Daisuki-chan »

sunphoenix

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Re: Chapter 39: Discussion
« Reply #18 on: December 18, 2013, 06:23:42 am »
Ah, I see.  Thank you for the clarification... I understand your point of view in that.

Though I am still a staunch supported of capital punishment.  Not all killing should be punishable by death - sometimes, though it may indeed be someones fault it  may not be their intent, but premeditated murder I'll always stand by the death penalty.

"Its a hell of a thing to kill a man.  In one moment... you take away all he has, and all he ever will." - Clint Eastwood, 'Unforgiven'

Life is irreplaceable.  And to me if one actively plots and scheme to take it away from someone else it should be asked of them in as punishment.  I'm not talking about crimes of passion or the truly repentant... circumstance can always alter the situation.

But cold-blooded murder, yeah death penalty.  But that is just my view of it... your is no less valid.

Ultimately its up to a higher power than my wisdom who is guilty and should be punished - which is probably for the better anyways.
"...no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free.  No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything - you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is Kill him." - Robert A. Heinlein


Azure Priest

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Re: Chapter 39: Discussion
« Reply #19 on: December 18, 2013, 06:29:34 am »

Except of course that your entire argument was based around morality, namely that which society has taught us.  Your heart and soul argument is exclusively morality.  What if there was a society in which hard labor was considered anathema, and mores were put in place regarding its usage.  The original question stands.

I did not mention an eye for an eye.  I did not mention , though I am well aware of, what they do in Pakistan and other Muslim societies and it is anathema.  Those in power who do such things, according to my standards, should be killed.  Nevertheless, my original question stands.  The question was what the state has a right to do - they have a right to force you into hard labor, they have a right to kill you, do they have a right to rape you?  If no, why not?  And if you say no, how many times have you been through airport security in the last decade?

Your argument was bad and you should feel bad.

No. You should feel bad, very bad for thinking that RAPE and PHYSICAL LABOR are the same thing.

They are clearly not. Rape doesn't JUST violate your body, it DOES INDEED violate your mind. Pick up a psychology book sometime. There is no "morality" in psychology, just cold hard fact, and years of careful scientific OBSERVATION. You could tell me fire is cold, and won't burn you, but I can OBSERVE that is flat out wrong as I see it burn the fuel it uses and feel the heat coming from the flames.

Morality aside, NO CIVILIZED SOCIETY has the RIGHT to rape its citizens. Not even its prisoners. You can ignore human rights, you can ignore "morality," but the scientific fact and culmination of years of documented research shows that doing so is, at best, counter-productive and at worst, only serves to embolden opposition and leads to revolt.

(Note, I have travelled by ship very recently, and I don't recall security raping any of the passengers. Not even the TSA.)

Capital Punishment (The death penalty as posted by sunphoenix) in civilized society MUST be reserved purely for those criminals who are a clear and present DEADLY danger to the citizenry as a whole, or those who commit acts so atrocious that no other form of punishment comes close to being justice.

Daisuki-chan

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Re: Chapter 39: Discussion
« Reply #20 on: December 18, 2013, 06:44:50 pm »
Ah, I see.  Thank you for the clarification... I understand your point of view in that.

Though I am still a staunch supported of capital punishment.  Not all killing should be punishable by death - sometimes, though it may indeed be someones fault it  may not be their intent, but premeditated murder I'll always stand by the death penalty.

"Its a hell of a thing to kill a man.  In one moment... you take away all he has, and all he ever will." - Clint Eastwood, 'Unforgiven'

Life is irreplaceable.  And to me if one actively plots and scheme to take it away from someone else it should be asked of them in as punishment.  I'm not talking about crimes of passion or the truly repentant... circumstance can always alter the situation.

But cold-blooded murder, yeah death penalty.  But that is just my view of it... your is no less valid.

Ultimately its up to a higher power than my wisdom who is guilty and should be punished - which is probably for the better anyways.
I didn't actually express any opinion on whether or not capital punishment should be used. I simply stated that it's categorically different from hard labor and rape because it always (rather than only sometimes) causes severe physical and/or psychological damage. Absolute damage from one point of view (personally I'd rather be killed than tormented for extended periods of time, but whatever). I'm not sure who you mean by a higher power, but if it's not the law then does this higher power subtract the punishment given by the law from the "correct" punishment "deserved"? Possibly even giving a huge refund for being overpunished, since apparently overpunishment (as well as punishment for the innocent and for victimless crimes) is the global norm?

------

Azure Priest, I think we can all agree (as per book 0) that Maytag would rather be raped than sentenced to hard labor (all else being equal, so perhaps right now she'd need some equally heavy promise to not perform hard labor (or just a need to save time (for the sake of completing a critically important task) by being raped rather than laboring for many days if not far longer) to balance out her promise not to cheat on Bern, assuming the rape counts as cheating to Maytag and/or Bern). Hard labor tends to be more physical while rape tends to be more psychological, but either way it can be quite terrible or not so terrible depending on the person and how hard the labor or rape is, and how long it lasts. Anyway, your studies obviously don't include "cave man" societies where the norm is for the alpha to screw all the women he likes because he wants to and the women need a huge amount of help to survive. Given limited language, philosophy, and culture on top of it being the norm I just doubt that those women reacted as strongly on average as a "modern" woman that expects to have full control over her body, finances, etc. tends to. I suppose you'd argue that those aren't civilized societies, and that's true from our point of view, but the point is that what counts as civilized and is thus accepted and expected of people is variable (they could just as well consider us rather than them uncivilized if they had the concept). There isn't one "true" set of rules for civilization. Hard labor is also extremely unpleasant to very many people, and can even effectively be capital punishment regardless of how the laborer takes it psychologically. Even if the person doesn't die they can forever be less physically able than before due to the hard labor. If you still don't understand how horrible hard labor can be, think about why it's called "hard" and what exactly it takes to force someone to actually do the labor. It is literally slavery.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2013, 06:52:03 pm by Daisuki-chan »

sunphoenix

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Re: Chapter 39: Discussion
« Reply #21 on: December 19, 2013, 09:36:03 am »
Hahaha ! Touche', Daisuki-Chan!  No, you did not 'actually' say you support or don't support capital punishment... it seemed {to me} like you were inferring you were opposed to it though.. my mis-conception.

It seems a unpopular point of view particularly around here.. but I happen to personally believe in a ultimate divine justice... the 'higher Power' I refer to! :)  If you take for granted ..call it faith that their is such a ultimate expression of Justice {as I do}... to me that means all things will come to those who deserve them...eventually.  There is no logic in it ...one cannot scientifically prove the existance of such a divne agent... though I would say my faith is not based upon non-facts..{though some would call it circumstantial} I have a faith in that divine justice and know it will not judge unfairly what we do here in our limited time in life.  I have faith in that.  You can't quantify it or measure it.. you either choose to believe or don't. 

But I'm am not here to discuss religion or faith merely my statement which you called to question was to express my feelings that human understanding can never be perfect so to expect men to be able to administer 'perfect' justice and proper punishment is a flawed premise. 

That is not to say we should not try... but my statement was to express that I gratified and relieved that I feel there is a higher authority whose wisdom and or knowledge is greater by far than my own... and he is indeed keeping track of the good.. and evil that men do to each other.

I have faith he will repay appropriately... with mercy.. and proper justice.

So back to the subject at hand...

"That's the sound of the man... choking on the chain... baAang!
"oh don't you know.. "
"That the sound of the man, dancing on the chain!"

:)

Seems a lot unfair to allow certain people to use magic in the arena.. unless this chain woman is not a contest but a trainer.  I'd find it hard to believe what she just did was not magically powered.. she didn't move a muscle!
"...no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free.  No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything - you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is Kill him." - Robert A. Heinlein


Daisuki-chan

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Re: Chapter 39: Discussion
« Reply #22 on: December 19, 2013, 04:40:56 pm »
Well, ideally there isn't a need for capital punishment, but in some scenarios there really is nothing better. If you had a "society" of a small group of people stranded on a small island and one turned out to be extremely violent there simply wouldn't be the resources or will available to confine and provide for that person. The person obviously can't be allowed to just continue doing whatever, either. In modern societies the situation is a lot more relaxed than that, though.

Azure Priest

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Re: Chapter 39: Discussion
« Reply #23 on: December 20, 2013, 05:14:00 am »
Holy shit. Did that guy just get ass raped by his own knife? It sure looks like that to me.

sunphoenix

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Re: Chapter 39: Discussion
« Reply #24 on: December 20, 2013, 08:04:30 am »
Yeah, I'm not exactly sure what I'm seeing.  I can't discern what his expression is after getting chain-slammed...

Is that blood or some such?  As far as I can tell the chain only grabbed his ankle and interrupted his 'chambara leap' attack {works better with a long curved blade I'm sure}... and slammed him down.  HARD!!!

Chain woman is not supposed to kill the contestants...merely gauge their ranking.
"...no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free.  No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything - you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is Kill him." - Robert A. Heinlein


Daisuki-chan

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Re: Chapter 39: Discussion
« Reply #25 on: December 20, 2013, 09:17:03 pm »
And I suppose you're going to tell the chain woman what she may and may not do? ;p

sunphoenix

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Re: Chapter 39: Discussion
« Reply #26 on: December 21, 2013, 08:43:22 am »
Nope! Not me.. though as a swordsman myself... I would have approached her MUCH more cautiously...

He tried to kill her or would have tried if she would have let him get close.  And the fool didn't even try to get the chain off his foot before mouthing off!  Moron got what he had coming to him.


Though it does occur to me that if Berndette and Polly work together..

Bern advancing with her purely defensive style to block the attacking chains with Polly close behind, Bern acting as a shield ...Polly may be able to get close enough to strike "Chains"...
"...no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free.  No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything - you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is Kill him." - Robert A. Heinlein


Azure Priest

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Re: Chapter 39: Discussion
« Reply #27 on: December 23, 2013, 06:48:43 am »
And that, ladies and gentlemen is why you DON'T TAUNT CHTHULU!

Yep, that's blood alright. So this performance/ curbstomp counts as a C? Yah! I'd hate to see what a lower rank is like.

Stargoat

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Re: Chapter 39: Discussion
« Reply #28 on: December 23, 2013, 11:11:09 am »

Except of course that your entire argument was based around morality, namely that which society has taught us.  Your heart and soul argument is exclusively morality.  What if there was a society in which hard labor was considered anathema, and mores were put in place regarding its usage.  The original question stands.

I did not mention an eye for an eye.  I did not mention , though I am well aware of, what they do in Pakistan and other Muslim societies and it is anathema.  Those in power who do such things, according to my standards, should be killed.  Nevertheless, my original question stands.  The question was what the state has a right to do - they have a right to force you into hard labor, they have a right to kill you, do they have a right to rape you?  If no, why not?  And if you say no, how many times have you been through airport security in the last decade?

Your argument was bad and you should feel bad.

No. You should feel bad, very bad for thinking that RAPE and PHYSICAL LABOR are the same thing.

They are clearly not. Rape doesn't JUST violate your body, it DOES INDEED violate your mind. Pick up a psychology book sometime. There is no "morality" in psychology, just cold hard fact, and years of careful scientific OBSERVATION. You could tell me fire is cold, and won't burn you, but I can OBSERVE that is flat out wrong as I see it burn the fuel it uses and feel the heat coming from the flames.

Morality aside, NO CIVILIZED SOCIETY has the RIGHT to rape its citizens. Not even its prisoners. You can ignore human rights, you can ignore "morality," but the scientific fact and culmination of years of documented research shows that doing so is, at best, counter-productive and at worst, only serves to embolden opposition and leads to revolt.

(Note, I have travelled by ship very recently, and I don't recall security raping any of the passengers. Not even the TSA.)

Capital Punishment (The death penalty as posted by sunphoenix) in civilized society MUST be reserved purely for those criminals who are a clear and present DEADLY danger to the citizenry as a whole, or those who commit acts so atrocious that no other form of punishment comes close to being justice.

Clearly your argument is incorrect.  A body cavity search is rape, as if it were to happen the street the offender would be charged with rape or some other similar crime.  But a body cavity search is performed every time someone is arrested and incarcerated in many jurisdictions in the USA.  I would call the USA a civilized society (though clearly some of its citizens are merely housetrained, at best).  I expect that you support the state in its misguided efforts to keep prisons safe.  Certainly I doubt you are among the handful who protest this abomination.  And this is to say nothing of the rape culture that has been deliberately fostered for decades by America's prison industrial complex.  Your argument that the state does not have the right to rape is wrong.  You have granted the state this right.

There is no "scientific fact and culmination of years of documented research" regarding the poor treatment of prisoners, as is prima facie evident from the argument above.  Your attempt at indignation to cover your fallacious (at best) argument is absurd.  Additionally, there have been no scientific studies (which would require laboratory conditions) of cultural development that control for conditions.  Using the word science does not improve your argument, but rather quite the opposite.

Further, there are or have been many civilized societies (civilized? what are you, Cecil Rhodes setting out to help our unfortunate dark cousins?) that regard rape as a lesser crime than forcing someone to a life of menial labor.  Consider the plight of the unfortunate Lady Murasaki from Tale of Genji for a clear bright line example.  It was clearly thought better by everyone in her life that she be raped (and at an unpleasantly young age) than be forced to labor by being demoted in class.  I would not call medieval Japan uncivilized.  Other examples abound, such as Rome under the Emperors.  I would not call Imperial Rome uncivilized either.  Senators and their wives put up with a very great deal under certain emperors, including rape, rather than relinquish their positions.

Your halfbaked (and off topic) argument about capital punishment is also incorrect.  We only need observe the number of innocent people on death row to realize that this punishment is unethical.  If we choose to defend the freedoms of the majority by preserving the rights of the individual (which is the basis of the Great Experiment), then capital punishment, even if it murders just one innocent person (which it has done) is an form of punishment at odds with the principles that the Republic was founded on.

Azure Priest, what you've written is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever read. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational argument. Everyone in this forum is now dumber for having read it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

Summer Glau

PS - Check me out on the WB's Arrow.  The next new episode airs January 15!
« Last Edit: December 23, 2013, 03:04:46 pm by Stargoat »

weirdguy

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Re: Chapter 39: Discussion
« Reply #29 on: December 23, 2013, 03:18:03 pm »
A bonus for initiative, but points off for lack of dignity.

Do they have to repave the floor after every set of trials?