Author Topic: Misogyny -- Inborn or Learned?  (Read 4021 times)

Kanazaka

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Misogyny -- Inborn or Learned?
« on: May 31, 2011, 01:40:07 pm »
So, do you think that men's hatred (or at the very least disrespect) of women is innate and cannot be changed, or do you believe that parents and other authority figures can teach young boys to respect women?  I ask this because every year I see countless high profile -- and low profile -- news stories about men physically, sexually and emotionally abusing women, whether through rape, incest, harassment, infidelity or other means.  This behavior doesn't have any cultural barriers, either, and is even tolerated in some cultures.

 I think that at the very least, American schools should perhaps offer after-school programs that teach or otherwise guide boys toward appropriate relationships with girls.  The lessons may not take root, but I think that someone should make the effort.  Ideally, boys should learn such proper social etiquette from their parents, other elder family members, close family friends or influential community members (such as priests).  However, these people may not be present in young boys' lives, or may be unwilling or unsure about how to teach their boys these social skills.  It just saddens and frustrates me to think that this behavior will continue to run rampant in society.  The situation is probably much better than it used to be, and gets better with each passing decade, but I still think we as a society could do a better job of eliminating it.  Your thoughts?

Jety Lefr

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Re: Misogyny -- Inborn or Learned?
« Reply #1 on: May 31, 2011, 05:29:31 pm »
So, do you think that men's hatred (or at the very least disrespect) of women is innate and cannot be changed, or do you believe that parents and other authority figures can teach young boys to respect women?

 I think that at the very least, American schools should perhaps offer after-school programs that teach or otherwise guide boys toward appropriate relationships with girls.
I do not think it is innate in the first place, but rather a learned thing. When learned, I do believe it can be changed. As a man who is respectful of all things, people, ideas, and very wanting to improve myself in any way I can... I find it that through my wandering, I've found the answer to the underlying problem of male dominance to be stemmed from the "monkey see monkey do" aspect of childhood impressions. For most families, not all, but most, the male head of a house-hold is seen as just that, the head of the house-hold. Men are in the generality of our sex, more intimidating and aggressive when angered. This "perhaps" creates the notion in young children that men are more "powerful" than woman, or "maybe" more able to assert the power they have.
I was raised to respect all people, ideas, customs, and to learn more about them with any chance I'm offered. It's one of my favorite things to do. To learn, debate, and think on subjects of human behavior. We are fascinating things... horrible, beautiful, terrifying, loving, and (as I've found it) above all else selfish.
Confucius once famously quoted these words:
"Men's natures are alike, it is their habits that carry them far apart." (or?) "By nature, men are nearly alike; by practice, they get to be wide apart."
Even as a man, he was intelligent enough (not a trait seen dominantly in men, admittedly) to understand that men are impressionable. We learn and take what it is that we will build ourselves to be in our future.

I think that's a wonderful idea. Not just for an instance of learning on how not to behave to women, but something my might offer learning of how to appropriately deal with them in a multitude of circumstances. Dating, tantrums (it does happen to many women, AND men), and the like. The fact is that men and women are indisputably too different to be grouped together. Women can simply not be understood by women, and men are too predictable to everyone. It is a generality (as I've seen it) than men are less able to understand (or rather) discover things about others. We can learn the same as all mentally competent humans, but I think in general we can't discover new ideas as easily as women. As such, as singular class to teach men the behavioral gestures they are otherwise unable to find themselves is a noble and well worth the effort idea. How many students will care? I have no idea.
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charles

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Re: Misogyny -- Inborn or Learned?
« Reply #2 on: May 31, 2011, 07:28:59 pm »
Something relevant from the "Rape or Consensual Sex" thread I wrote.

Personally I'd like to see a lot more education on this stuff for girls in high-school.  Just stuff that could help them to understand when they might be getting in a situation that could lead to rape.  Letting a boy they hardly know lead them away from a party to a private place, going to someone's house or bringing them to yours when you hardly know them, etc.  I think a lot of girls have it in their mind that they might just make-out or have a coffee and talk but these guys can get it in their heads that they're expecting sex and with a little booze they might be pretty upset when it doesn't lead to that.

I'm not suggesting that the guy is justified there, far from it, just that a lot of girls that age can be naive about what a guy they hardly know, might be like in private with some booze in him, no matter how charming he may have appeared before that.  It's better to avoid a potential situation than tempt fate sometimes.  Sort of like walking a zebra crossing when a big truck is coming.  Fair enough, you legally have right of way and if the truck doesn't stop, he'll be charged, but by then, you're already hit.

Same with the boys.  Just some education that no matter how many drinks, taxi rides, meals and other things they might pay for they should have no expectation of being rewarded with sex and that forcing a girl after she says no is noting going to make her change her mind (seriously, I can't believe some of those porn movies which show girls getting forced and suddenly getting horny once they are.)  These young boys need to know that it's not going to happen like that.
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Kilravok

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Re: Misogyny -- Inborn or Learned?
« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2011, 12:28:19 pm »
I think it is mostly learned but to a certain extend also genetic. But while nurture seems to be stronger, it is not as valid and right as nature.  There are many instinctual behavor patterns that are caused by genetic conditioning throughout thousands of generations and won't be wiped clear within a mere 100-200 years of socio-political dictate.

About that needing to learn respect for women, I couldn't agree and at the same time disagree more.
It is not merely needed that boys are taught to respect women, it is neccessary that kids (boys and girls) are taught respect, along with manners, discipline, tolerance, consequence, responsibility, honnesty and ethics (not to be mistaken for morality).
However, I strongly disagree with this notion that one would have to treat women with the same respect or in the same ways as one would treat men. I don't believe in equality and equal treatment. Men and Women are not equal and never will be, what is right for men is not automatically right for women.  The propaganda of feminists about gender equality is in its entirety disproven, even the claim that there is no differecne between a male brain and a female brain. There is a zone in the left brain hemnisphere near the hypocampus that defines if you are man or woman, that brain part is what gives us a gender identity and what causes the differences in responses to the 'gender-neutral' part of the neuro-chemistry.  And that zone in the brain is not even always what visible gender aspects (genetalia) would suggest.
The concept of gender equality only works if what is right by one gender is right by the other.  it is common propaganda that one would have to repsectfully treat a woman equal to men, but would that not be akin as treating a woman as equal to a garrage or a door or a football? Is treating a woman not just treating her as somehting she isn't? To respect a woman, man has to respect her as a woman and an equal to women. To treat her as something she isn't, for excample as a man or an equal to men, would be disrespectful.
It would be almost like all those militant feminists who proclaim being proud of being women but at the same time surpressing and denou8ncing everything that makes them Women (as persons, not biologically). How can one claim to be proud of being a woman while at the same time surpressing and damning one's feminity, female fertality, sensuality, caring and nurturing nature and womanhood and demanding to be treating like men? Its those same militant feminists who loudly proclaim that they despise men while at the same time doing everyhting in their might to imitate and be like and indeed become those men they dispise so much.
At the same time they demand of Men to surpress their masculinity and assersivness, to surrender their natural dominance.  It is a world of paradox where the definition of True Man is being feminine while the definition of True Woman is being masculine.

You complain that Men don't repsect Women, but that goes other way round as well.  Women nowadays think they can do whatever they want to and with men without consequence, just because they are women. They can flirt shamelessly with men and then just withdraw and not deliver what they offered when a Man takes them up on the offer. They are considered 'sexually liberated' and 'modern' when they give guys a slap on the rear, but when Men do that to them its sexual assault or at the very least sexual harrassment, Women claim the right to be moody and change their mind and have tantrums, but when a Man does such, he's immature and mean. Women are allowed to bitch-slap any guy, but he is not allowed to bitch-slap her (even if she clearly deserves it). There are a million more excamples where women claim the right to do everyhting they want while men shall be denied the same things......Hell, Women are allowed to wear trousers, but watch the reactions when men wear dress....

Also...Do women actually want to be treated with 'respect' and stuff? Why are Women so attracted to bastards and jerks? Why are nice guys and inteligent boys and decent respecting men still virgin at age 30 while football brutes and school yard bullies and sexist swein break up with their fifth girlfriend at age 17 and got at least a douzen other girls just lining up for a chance to be with them? Why are so many equal-righted free and liberated women converting to islam in full knowledge that there they would be treated as second class un-equals?
It is true, in the BDSM Fetish scene there are way more dominant women than submissive ones, but in the BDSM Lifestyle scene there are way more submissive women than dominant ones. And one look on their faces tells me, the dominant ones are neither happy nor fulfilled.

Jety Lefr

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Re: Misogyny -- Inborn or Learned?
« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2011, 02:40:03 pm »
On the point of 'equality,' men and woman are indeed by some manner of speaking, equal. it would be like to compare 1/2 to .5
These are equal but you're not even using the same mathematical language. Men and woman are very different, each with their own characteristically common strengths, weaknesses, and traits. To compare one (whether man or 1/2) to another (woman or .5), is to change what they are.
(I know... stupid analogy, but it's does bring up the point that inspired it)
To accept that they are different, and yet equal is necessary to undergo any changes towards an understanding between the two sexes. This understanding is rare, and only those who truly see them as equal have achieved complete understanding. Why do you think men and women argue with each other so much? Or anyone with anyone? A lack of understanding.  To understand is not to comprehend, but to know. You can comprehend the mind of woman, but you're might not know it. If this is the case, you can't understand it, and thus can't see it as equal.

A schooling program that would allow for such (usually) uncharacteristic bonding between young boys and girls would be ideal to bring about a generation that understands each other regardless of gender. [at least those are my thoughts on it]

You complain that Men don't respect Women, but that goes other way round as well.  Women nowadays think they can do whatever they want to and with men without consequence, just because they are women.

Also...Do women actually want to be treated with 'respect' and stuff? Why are Women so attracted to bastards and jerks? Why are nice guys and intelligent boys and decent respecting men still virgin at age 30 while football brutes and school yard bullies and sexist swine break up with their fifth girlfriend at age 17 and got at least a dozen other girls just lining up for a chance to be with them?
These would be based on individuals, cultures, and upbringings entirely. Just one continent over, and you'll find exactly the opposite. People are people, and humans are always going to be human. To error is human! We are all flawed, no matter how greatly we seek to mend our fault lines. We are each and every one of us cracked with these lines. Some more than others, but to say "Women nowadays think they can do whatever they want" might be yours. Such a wholly generalized statement is offending to say. I've met so many wonderful men AND women. Of course, I've met bad ones too. I really really Honestly do not want to offend you, but your statements seem biased to me. Then again, I don't know you, so I have no right to make a judgment, and so I won't. I just want to voice that this is how it appears to me at a first impression.
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charles

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Re: Misogyny -- Inborn or Learned?
« Reply #5 on: June 01, 2011, 11:32:58 pm »
I think it is mostly learned but to a certain extend also genetic. But while nurture seems to be stronger, it is not as valid and right as nature.  There are many instinctual behavor patterns that are caused by genetic conditioning throughout thousands of generations and won't be wiped clear within a mere 100-200 years of socio-political dictate.

About that needing to learn respect for women, I couldn't agree and at the same time disagree more.
It is not merely needed that boys are taught to respect women, it is neccessary that kids (boys and girls) are taught respect, along with manners, discipline, tolerance, consequence, responsibility, honnesty and ethics (not to be mistaken for morality).

I can agree with that and with the idea that women should not necessarily be treated in the same way with men but I do believe they should be afforded the same respect.  Respect should not be dependant on gender.

I would, however also like to see the other items I quoted myself on further above taught.  As you noted, men and women are different, so I think its good to teach these young men and women how to deal with each other and what to look out for in the more extreme of circumstances with regards to when a man might believe he's entitled to sex and how a woman might want to enjoy the company of a man but not still not necessarily sexually.

You complain that Men don't repsect Women, but that goes other way round as well.  Women nowadays think they can do whatever they want to and with men without consequence, just because they are women. They can flirt shamelessly with men and then just withdraw and not deliver what they offered when a Man takes them up on the offer. They are considered 'sexually liberated' and 'modern' when they give guys a slap on the rear, but when Men do that to them its sexual assault or at the very least sexual harrassment, Women claim the right to be moody and change their mind and have tantrums, but when a Man does such, he's immature and mean. Women are allowed to bitch-slap any guy, but he is not allowed to bitch-slap her (even if she clearly deserves it). There are a million more excamples where women claim the right to do everyhting they want while men shall be denied the same things......Hell, Women are allowed to wear trousers, but watch the reactions when men wear dress....

A Man can flirt with a woman and not "deliver" when taken up on the offer, women just usually don't care as much or get violent about it.  Men can also woe women with promises of love, marriage and endless happiness for a night in their bed then decline to deliver it all.  I certainly don't believe women have some special RIGHT to be moody, change their minds or throw tantrums without being viewed with disdain.  We call them bitches for it and when we do it they call us bastards.  Certainly people might stereotype and just shake their head and write it off as her being female to explain for her being a immature and mean but then the stereotype is often returned that all men are bastards to explain when we're immature and mean.

There are other explanations for why women end up with "bastards".  There's a great comic explanation somewhere out there that I can't find.  Will keep looking.  But in essence, the women who are submissive obviously respond to dominant men who seek them out.  Submissive men would respond to dominant women but these women can be in a state of mind to not need a man and may not seek them out like a "bastard" might seek submissive women out to get with them.  The virgin 30 year olds aren't exactly the kind who are usually embracing life and getting out there to meet women and make themselves available.  They're usually the shy guys staying at home surfing the internet and playing RPGs, wondering how the bastards who are out partying with the party girls and actually hanging out get the girls are getting with them.  The answer is right there.  Nothing wrong with staying at home but they have to realise that if they want to meet and be with women then they better stop hiding in the shadows and waiting to be noticed by them.  These people don't necessarily lack "bastardry" but self-confidence and both men and women generally like senf-confidence in each other.  There are plenty of "bitches" out there who are getting men to do what they want for them and bossing them around with tempers and tantrums, the threat of less sex or the promise of more and there are plenty of men who are putting up with that as much as women putting up with "bastards".  Through all of this thare are a lot of bastards getting plenty of women, a lot of loners getting none and a vast number of "keepers" who are getting married to one and living happily together for decades considering less than 20% of people never marry, less than 40% of marriages end in divorce and only around 10% of marriages are abusive (including emotional abuse).

Again, an individual woman's actions can certainly dictate how much respect we have for her and this is should be true for men.  But the fact that a person is female or male should not be a determining factor in establishing a level of respect.  If you choose to disrespect all women because of the actions of a minority or even majority, then you're stereotyping and judging all women before you know them each personally much like many of the more aggressive feminists have stereotyped all men as bastards.

Its difficult not to stereotype as its basic nature to do so.  Look at a dog who's been abused by a human master for a period of time and despite any love the dog may have received before or after that abusive master it will always cringe when a hand is raised, even in greeting.  See enough submissive women getting with bastards and you can get the impression that all women lack self-respect and ignore the plight of those who steer clear of the bastards and fight to be respected and for women to shake the notion that its alright to be disrespected as a female by men.
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Re: Misogyny -- Inborn or Learned?
« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2011, 11:48:21 am »
I would say it's mostly learned, but also has a little something to do with the way men and women have evolved. 

I think we all agree that everyone should have equal rights.  But that's a different thing from society treating men and women equally... I would say that most people, men and women, treat different genders differently.  For example... most people tend to think that it is a horrible thing for a man to hit a woman, much worse than if a man were to hit another man.  I'm certainly not in favor of women being hit, but that's inherently sexist.  It would make more sense to say that stronger people shouldn't beat up on weaker people, regardless of gender... because women are not always weaker.

In other words, people should be defined by their own individual traits, not by a category.  Even if women are weaker than men on average, that ought to be seen as completely irrelevant.

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Re: Misogyny -- Inborn or Learned?
« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2011, 01:02:35 pm »
It would make more sense to say that stronger people shouldn't beat up on weaker people, regardless of gender... because women are not always weaker.
that's exactly the right thing to say.
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Re: Misogyny -- Inborn or Learned?
« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2011, 01:29:42 pm »
I think the inherent fault in these arguments on both sides always seem to boil down to one thing, and that is men and women. As already pointed out people should be equal because they are people regardless of their gender, race, religion, or culture. Men shouldn't respect women, and women shouldn't respect men. People should respect people.