Author Topic: Chapter 35: Discussion  (Read 17334 times)

Kiran

  • Cage Dancer
  • **
  • Posts: 322
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
« Reply #90 on: January 08, 2013, 12:22:45 am »
Oh. This latest page made me love Bernadette a little bit more.

I really like this arc.
Yeah, surprisingly in a way she managed to stay true to her own moral code...
She's done a bad thing, so she simply waited to be punished for it.
I kinda expected she would try to run away at least leaving this country and it's laws.

And now we see men in black edition, I wonder what the punishment for such crime as Bern did is here, she extorted a free pricy service out of a healer by threatening her, and then willingly got arrested.
I rather doubt that courts exist here, I also kinda doubt Polly would get Bern out of the hook, cause that would make the chapter pointless, so I think Bern will need to pay the price of her own morally good doings.
If all is defined by money here, then in some way Bern will need to give them back that amount she had "stolen".

From other side if this system would kill every criminal, then it would be quite effective in keeping everything correct to their standard.

Abstract Vagabond

  • Guest
Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
« Reply #91 on: January 08, 2013, 01:31:28 am »
While I mentioned that Bern did commit a wrong, her desperation was understandable. And, you know, now that I think of it, I'm calling BS on that old dude's excuse of going out of business if he was kind like that. If he doesn't have to pay taxes or any such government expenses, living in such a "free" piece of land and all, who the HELL is he having to pay in order to justify his reasoning let alone justify the insane price he's asking? The healer girl? A simple "now hiring: healer that isn't into highway robbery" sign wouldn't do?

So, now we're at the point where Bern is accepting whatever punishment she's about to receive (which given that place, should be as insane as their prices) with her knightress in shining gothgear pleading to stop the madness as if anyone in that room knows what a world outside of madness looks like. And... wait a minute... are these the people the old dude pays to keep his business afloat? If so, are we sure he's not paying taxes? I guess if they decide to call it something else, they could technically say there's no taxes though anyone with half a brain can tell there is. Did these people come into his healing parlor one day and say, "Nice place you got here. Would be a shame if something happened to it. Ba da bing."? Am I giving Brion material for his next intermission? j/k

Well, I'll see where this heads off to and determine what other thoughts could enter my head.

BurnGarn

  • Tender Young Virgin
  • *
  • Posts: 16
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
« Reply #92 on: January 08, 2013, 07:52:39 am »
So...is the new page supposed to paint Bern in a positive light?

Because all it does is show how she doesn't take responsibility for her actions, and instead lets Polly bail her out for mugging a healer. The whole non-resistance thing is a moot point when she knows full well that her current best bud is an Enforcer who can and will cover her ass due to being madly in love with her. Embracing cronyism with open arms, as opposed to owning the fact that she's a violent criminal, actually makes her look worse than fighting off the Enforcers would. It shows she doesn't have the courage of her convictions, otherwise, if she truly believed she was in the right, there's other no reason for her to let herself be taken than to have Polly come to the rescue.

She still has someone to love, someone to live for, and wouldn't that be a heck of a lot more important than respecting the laws and culture that would've left her father to rot away and die on the street? In this one instance, I really do wish Bern would take personal responsibility, if only because the alternative is much more shameful. The irony is that, by taking faux responsibility, she's essentially absolving herself of it like a coward, and simply giving up.

Bern...looks like a pathetic failure hero by the end of this chapter. Even more so than necessary. It seems like this chapter is entirely dedicated entirely to how much Bern sucks as a main character. Does the writer hate her or something? Because I'm really not sure what kind of entertainment or aesop is supposed to be had. The new page only makes me thing the comic would've been better off had Mary succeeded in offing Bern, just to spare her the shame conga she's currently dancing.

Jindra34

  • Fresh Meat
  • Posts: 8
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
« Reply #93 on: January 08, 2013, 11:06:14 am »
BurnGarn please don't base your responses on predictions. Or not judge until things are all said and done. For all you know Bern could end up telling Polly to but out and let things resolve properly.

Daisuki-chan

  • Rose Petal Acolyte
  • **
  • Posts: 106
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
« Reply #94 on: January 08, 2013, 04:30:57 pm »
It can't be helped. The anti-intellectual only believes in what he thinks of, and doesn't often at all like Flipside or its characters anyway, so it's no wonder that he one-sidedly complains all the time. Brion sure is tolerant to let him keep spewing when odds are not so low that he's simply a troll, possibly taking "revenge" for Flipside not turning out to be TTGL.

IronSoul

  • Tender Young Virgin
  • *
  • Posts: 21
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
« Reply #95 on: January 08, 2013, 08:20:06 pm »
I think both of you are being fairly opinionated right now.

I think Burn's argument has some merit. I think her actions were more impulsive than a matter of relying on Polly to bail her out, but I'm not a big fan of the turn this scene seems to be taking. Bern's a main character and naturally needs an "out", but I wish there had been a little more time before Polly had shown up. It feels a little instantaneous for the sake of the story, though Polly's standing with the enforcers and her general personality do at least make her sudden arrival make sense.

Brion Foulke

  • Administrator
  • Experimental
  • *****
  • Posts: 771
    • AOL Instant Messenger - flipsider99
    • View Profile
    • www.flipsidecomics.com
    • Email
Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
« Reply #96 on: January 09, 2013, 01:20:45 am »
I apologize for being demeaning, but anyone with a brain knows that an entire society can't be judged based on one single upper class neighborhood. That's obviously moronic. It's the kind of thing anyone would realize is wrong if you just sat down and thought about it for a minute. But that stupidity is the basis for your opinion, and stupid opinions are kind of my berserk button.

These kind of insults are unacceptable.  Also, while it's okay to post criticism, it's not okay to post lots of meandering ranting posts, especially if the purpose of those posts seems to be to fill the thread with negativity.

So, I'm going to place a 1 week ban on you.  You are welcome to come back after 1 week so long as you take a more respectful tone with others, and exercise some restraint.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2013, 01:22:26 am by Brion Foulke »

Shay

  • Collared Pet
  • *
  • Posts: 69
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
« Reply #97 on: January 09, 2013, 09:29:08 am »

I apologize for being demeaning, but anyone with a brain knows that an entire society can't be judged based on one single upper class neighborhood. That's obviously moronic. It's the kind of thing anyone would realize is wrong if you just sat down and thought about it for a minute. But that stupidity is the basis for your opinion, and stupid opinions are kind of my berserk button.

These kind of insults are unacceptable.  Also, while it's okay to post criticism, it's not okay to post lots of meandering ranting posts, especially if the purpose of those posts seems to be to fill the thread with negativity.

So, I'm going to place a 1 week ban on you.  You are welcome to come back after 1 week so long as you take a more respectful tone with others, and exercise some restraint.

Thank you.

I think both of you are being fairly opinionated right now.

I think Burn's argument has some merit. I think her actions were more impulsive than a matter of relying on Polly to bail her out, but I'm not a big fan of the turn this scene seems to be taking. Bern's a main character and naturally needs an "out", but I wish there had been a little more time before Polly had shown up. It feels a little instantaneous for the sake of the story, though Polly's standing with the enforcers and her general personality do at least make her sudden arrival make sense.

I'm sure that Polly means to come in and release Bern no matter what. But who says she has the authority to do that? And if she tries to do it by force, I can't see Bern being cool with that. If Bern wanted to escape the law by force, or by running, she already had the means to do so. And she didn't.
I'm more of the opinion that Bern will refuse all help, believing that she knowingly broke the rules and so deserves the punishment.
The only thing that might change any of this is if Bern finds out May has been kidnapped.

(Unless the 'sham' comment by Polly isn't just an insult she's using and this is, in fact, a false proceeding in some way?? )

Kiran

  • Cage Dancer
  • **
  • Posts: 322
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
« Reply #98 on: January 09, 2013, 09:42:33 am »

(Unless the 'sham' comment by Polly isn't just an insult she's using and this is, in fact, a false proceeding in some way?? )
This is something which confused me massively here, why she used such a word where the situation is pretty clear, Bern broke Marvallo law, extorted a free service and then willingly gone with Enforcers for punishment, how that can be called like that?

Especially from Polly mouth who so far was potrayed as a true supporter of this system which in her way is much better than past situation she had with her vigilante gang...
Obviously personal relation toBern plays some emotionalrole here...
Or maybe we will learn now that Enforcers, or maybe citizens here, are too some kind of corrupted bunch which fabricates evidence or confessions to get people to pay them for crimes they didn't do?
Few fake witnesses, some naive visitors to this country and everyone can be arrested to pay up for their "crimes".

Maybe t wil be explainedbeter with today's update.

Also I too hope that there will be some consequences of Bern action, than just Polly saving her route.

Jindra34

  • Fresh Meat
  • Posts: 8
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
« Reply #99 on: January 09, 2013, 12:29:16 pm »

(Unless the 'sham' comment by Polly isn't just an insult she's using and this is, in fact, a false proceeding in some way?? )
This is something which confused me massively here, why she used such a word where the situation is pretty clear, Bern broke Marvallo law, extorted a free service and then willingly gone with Enforcers for punishment, how that can be called like that?

The only law in Marvallo is no violence http://flipside.keenspot.com/comic.php?i=1191 . So how this plays out will depend on how that law is applied, namely does defending yourself from a thug still get you in trouble? And what would constitute proper provocation, if anything. And whether those two guys were Enforcers would play into it.

Shay

  • Collared Pet
  • *
  • Posts: 69
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
« Reply #100 on: January 09, 2013, 12:46:49 pm »
Maybe trying to throw Bern out of the house was something the Healer wasn't supposed to do. It was violent action, after all. And by doing it, maybe forfeited any legal action she could take against Bern later? Thus making this a sham.

In a completely unrelated curiosity... I wonder how Stalkers are dealt with?

Jindra34

  • Fresh Meat
  • Posts: 8
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
« Reply #101 on: January 09, 2013, 02:52:53 pm »
Maybe trying to throw Bern out of the house was something the Healer wasn't supposed to do. It was violent action, after all. And by doing it, maybe forfeited any legal action she could take against Bern later? Thus making this a sham.

In a completely unrelated curiosity... I wonder how Stalkers are dealt with?
Well Bern still did some violent action herself though. But it is odd that the law against violence is the only law, after all none of Bern's extortion was particularly violent, so there should be no legal ramifications of that. The beating up of two people who started the fight themselves? Maybe, depending on how the law goes and whether they were Enforcers (given that they seem to have something of an exception to the one law).

Brion Foulke

  • Administrator
  • Experimental
  • *****
  • Posts: 771
    • AOL Instant Messenger - flipsider99
    • View Profile
    • www.flipsidecomics.com
    • Email
Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
« Reply #102 on: January 09, 2013, 02:55:29 pm »
In a completely unrelated curiosity... I wonder how Stalkers are dealt with?

If you tell them you don't want to be touched, then they can't legally touch you.  If you tell them you want them off your private property, then they can't legally be on your property.  Otherwise they can do whatever they want.

Jindra34

  • Fresh Meat
  • Posts: 8
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
« Reply #103 on: January 09, 2013, 03:17:35 pm »
In a completely unrelated curiosity... I wonder how Stalkers are dealt with?

If you tell them you don't want to be touched, then they can't legally touch you.  If you tell them you want them off your private property, then they can't legally be on your property.  Otherwise they can do whatever they want.
Even though the only law is 'No Violence Allowed'? How does that work?

Brion Foulke

  • Administrator
  • Experimental
  • *****
  • Posts: 771
    • AOL Instant Messenger - flipsider99
    • View Profile
    • www.flipsidecomics.com
    • Email
Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
« Reply #104 on: January 09, 2013, 06:17:48 pm »
Even though the only law is 'No Violence Allowed'? How does that work?

This is my fault because in the comic when I first introduces this concept I had Polly use the word violence.  I probably should have had her use the word "force," since that is what is actually illegal.  It basically has the same legal meaning as how we use the word "force" here: it includes violence, but it also means you can't take someone's property or violate their rights by force.  So it includes assault, theft, trespassing, and even violating contracts.

Abstract Vagabond

  • Guest
Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
« Reply #105 on: January 09, 2013, 11:21:56 pm »
Is this the world Polly's living in now?

Kiran

  • Cage Dancer
  • **
  • Posts: 322
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
« Reply #106 on: January 10, 2013, 12:13:26 am »
1000 marks?

Isn't this something similiar to death by a thousand cuts concept?

Seeing how grim this sounds it's basically slow death penalty or heavy mutilation for an assault where no one died, just 2 guys were beaten down and a free service was extorted.

Kill your law brakers and you get a clean perfect society...

So while May is being changed into some kind superior and/or monster being Bern will be either heavy beaten or cut which will leave these 1000 marks on her body...
And it seems she will take the penalty cause in her own moral code she herself thinks she broke the law as the KFC guy told her, that's why she stayed, even if it was justified by saving a person.

I can see Bern basically say Polly that she should leave her alone,and seeing this convo between Enforcers they seem tonot like each other too much...

Also from where these guys would know Polly connection to Bern?

In some way I can understand what BurnGarn said about Bern perspective in the comic, lately it's always bad things which happen to her on almost constant basis, and seeing how the plot goes the perspective seems to be even worse for the future.
But after all this comic is fueled mostly by drama revolving the main set of characters, than about happy things happening to them(I still hope Crest will get a bit of similiar treatment as Bern and May got so far) ;)

Stargoat

  • Hot Streaker
  • **
  • Posts: 444
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
« Reply #107 on: January 10, 2013, 05:07:24 am »
Supersaiyan Maytag might be a wee bit displeased if someone brutally executes Bern.

Shay

  • Collared Pet
  • *
  • Posts: 69
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
« Reply #108 on: January 10, 2013, 12:15:21 pm »
'Marks' could just mean 'lashings'. So, Bern would get a thousand strikes of the whip.

...Still a pretty brutal punishment though.

Jindra34

  • Fresh Meat
  • Posts: 8
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
« Reply #109 on: January 10, 2013, 02:52:26 pm »
'Marks' could just mean 'lashings'. So, Bern would get a thousand strikes of the whip.

...Still a pretty brutal punishment though.
Yeah it is, doubly so given that the Romans used it as a punishment for runaway slaves. Lets hope its just a fine of some sort. Or some kind of community service.

Stargoat

  • Hot Streaker
  • **
  • Posts: 444
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
« Reply #110 on: January 10, 2013, 07:31:07 pm »
Men in the Napoleonic English navy could survive one thousand lashes from a normal cat if they were spaced out over a few days or weeks (and sometimes even if not such as with William Mitchell).  Still, one does not like the idea of Bern going through that.

Druk

  • Fresh Meat
  • Posts: 1
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
« Reply #111 on: January 11, 2013, 08:41:13 am »
Regardless of the severity, I wouldn't be surprised at all if Bern is given the ability to work it off, i.e. pay for some/all of the sentence with cash. As they said, money is life.

Still don't quite understand how Polly is so incredulous, though. Maybe it's so rare to see someone actually committing a crime in the less ghetto-y parts of the city that she's unused to seeing someone held accountable?

Shay

  • Collared Pet
  • *
  • Posts: 69
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
« Reply #112 on: January 11, 2013, 10:38:54 pm »
Oh god that will wreck Bern. And has some similarities to the whole 'Hurting May to punish Bern' thing back in the beginning with the cutting off of fingers and... breasts. But, I don't think they'll go for it.

The Enforcers don't know Bern like we do. They don't know that hurting those around her is a more effective punishment. ( Or that tossing her back and forth through a portal would be pretty punishing also. )

So they'd be hurting their Enforcer, letting Bern go 'free' and hoping that their friendship is important enough that Bern is still punished by it. Which is right, but again, they don't know that.

Why trade a definite punishment, for one that may work and also hurts your employee?

Kiran

  • Cage Dancer
  • **
  • Posts: 322
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
« Reply #113 on: January 12, 2013, 12:19:32 am »
Oh god that will wreck Bern. And has some similarities to the whole 'Hurting May to punish Bern' thing back in the beginning with the cutting off of fingers and... breasts. But, I don't think they'll go for it.

The Enforcers don't know Bern like we do. They don't know that hurting those around her is a more effective punishment. ( Or that tossing her back and forth through a portal would be pretty punishing also. )

So they'd be hurting their Enforcer, letting Bern go 'free' and hoping that their friendship is important enough that Bern is still punished by it. Which is right, but again, they don't know that.

Why trade a definite punishment, for one that may work and also hurts your employee?
We don't know laws between Enforcers, if indeed Bern was Polly responsibility and done something bad like Polly stated it I think it could be expected that Polly could take the blame for it and with that the punishment...
But I agree, this will hurt Bern more than if she would get the punishment herself, especially if through the process Polly would get killed or heavy mutilated or become disabled...
I don't think Bern could live with herself if that happened, of course we know that all can be fixed in Iscariot as long the patient is alive...
I just hope that Bern will speak and take the punishment too, like 50/50 at least, or whole, Polly only fault is that she wasn't there but it was Bern own action of breaking Marvallo laws to heal her father(even if morally right).
Where is personal responsibility if Polly will take Bern punishment like that?

Daisuki-chan

  • Rose Petal Acolyte
  • **
  • Posts: 106
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
« Reply #114 on: January 12, 2013, 10:26:18 pm »
"Personal responsibility" was just an argument of the healer's father, not any official policy of the nation, as far as I know.

Kiran

  • Cage Dancer
  • **
  • Posts: 322
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
« Reply #115 on: January 13, 2013, 03:59:15 am »
"Personal responsibility" was just an argument of the healer's father, not any official policy of the nation, as far as I know.
I meant it more as Bern own personal responsibility for what she did.

Also I wonder what Grant will do when he will wake up sober and learn that his only daughter and/or her friend got such punishment for healing him, I still hope that guy has some spark to set up than just being old alcoholic geezer who doesn't care about anything anymore.

He was a knight who had some skills after all, who taught Bern what she currently knows, even if that's more childish style of fightning than something real if I understand that correctly(but again why other warriors with their adult fightning style couldn't do what Bern did is too a bit amusing).

Shay

  • Collared Pet
  • *
  • Posts: 69
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
« Reply #116 on: January 14, 2013, 03:17:16 pm »

Also I wonder what Grant will do when he will wake up sober and learn that his only daughter and/or her friend got such punishment for healing him, I still hope that guy has some spark to set up than just being old alcoholic geezer who doesn't care about anything anymore.

I don't know. I would rather Grant stay as he is.  Having some transformation into his old hero self/good father figure because Bern's sacrifice 'showed him the error of his ways'? It's a little cliche.

I would rather he continue drinking himself to death because, y'know, that happens sometimes. People destroy themselves, and there's nothing you can do to stop them, no matter how hard you try or how much you sacrifice. And I think that's an okay moral for Bern to learn.

Kiran

  • Cage Dancer
  • **
  • Posts: 322
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
« Reply #117 on: January 15, 2013, 12:52:14 am »

Also I wonder what Grant will do when he will wake up sober and learn that his only daughter and/or her friend got such punishment for healing him, I still hope that guy has some spark to set up than just being old alcoholic geezer who doesn't care about anything anymore.

I don't know. I would rather Grant stay as he is.  Having some transformation into his old hero self/good father figure because Bern's sacrifice 'showed him the error of his ways'? It's a little cliche.

I would rather he continue drinking himself to death because, y'know, that happens sometimes. People destroy themselves, and there's nothing you can do to stop them, no matter how hard you try or how much you sacrifice. And I think that's an okay moral for Bern to learn.
I would want to see some positive cliche in Flipside for once ::)
Why not?

But again for story direction, if Bern would be back from her punishment just to see her father again drunk to death, damn that should be a powerful eye opener for her to modify her moral course a bit.

I suppose that too wouldn't be a bad route.
I wonder if we will get to see the scene of the torture punishment or we will just skip to after effect.

Shay

  • Collared Pet
  • *
  • Posts: 69
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
« Reply #118 on: January 15, 2013, 08:08:03 am »

Alright, so I'm shipping Polly/Bern pretty hard right now.

With Bern and May, May is the young, energetic social girl that everyone loves being around. And Bern ends up taking care of her quite a bit, saving her from danger, being an emotional rock, so on. She's the parent to May's 'child' in many ways. 

I see Polly either as Bern's equal, or a reverse of the situation with May. The whole 'taking care of Bern' thing? That's not something May (or most people) can really do.

(Not that May doesn't provide support in her own way. But still. I'm really warming up to Polly here, and hoping for some side by side fighting in an arena. <3)

I would want to see some positive cliche in Flipside for once ::)
Why not?

Well, we've got the 'true love conquers all' thing from May and Bern? Despite their vast differences, so on, so on? That hasn't been destroyed. Yet.


L0g0s

  • Hot Streaker
  • **
  • Posts: 437
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
« Reply #119 on: January 17, 2013, 08:12:08 pm »
See, told you Bern had the answer.  She and I work pretty similarly.  I believe there's a difference between legal and right.  And hence, illegal and wrong.  If I do something that I don't think was wrong, well, screw what anybody else things.  But if I do something wrong and know it, I don't back out.  Bern knew she needed to save her father, but also knew that what she was doing was ultimately wrong in regards to those other people.  So she stepped up to take her punishment.  We'll see how the whole Polly situation plays out.