Author Topic: Chapter 35: Discussion  (Read 17280 times)

Kiran

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Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
« Reply #30 on: December 05, 2012, 11:58:20 pm »
I guess it's a typo in the image link, showing Chapter 34 Page 19 instead of Chapter 35 page 19.
Seems to be a typo then...

Who else hears the theme from "Bodyguard" going where the healer ask Bern to be her hired help instead of these guys to enforce her safety/business?
I'm kinda curious if Bern will go fully with the threat now.

Shay

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Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
« Reply #31 on: December 07, 2012, 10:45:55 am »
"We're a decent neighborhood"? Does that imply that non-decent neighborhoods don't have the Enforcers?

This page is deeply satisfying though.

sunphoenix

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Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
« Reply #32 on: December 08, 2012, 05:34:59 am »
Hahaha!  "I don't like grant", "I wish this arc was over... Grant's a lost cause...", Blah blah blh... :) {Not criticism... all in point}!

Look, this Arc is NOT 'about Grant'... it ABOUT Bern!  About what her limits are, about her personal honor, about her devotion and love... in all its parts!

This Arc is more about what SHE is willing to do, what is important to her and what she is willing to risk.. and abandon to follow her heart! 

I think its GREAT!

...And OF COURSE... Bern is Deadly Sexy when she's kicking Ass... too bad she's not into boys!  She'd be a hot little number to cuddle with and caress that distinctive scar tenderly on her face after some passionate love-making! :)
« Last Edit: December 08, 2012, 06:32:26 am by sunphoenix »
"...no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free.  No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything - you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is Kill him." - Robert A. Heinlein


Ardanis

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Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
« Reply #33 on: December 08, 2012, 08:08:42 am »
I understand that the story needs some action and drama to proceed, but still I think that's a big blunder she didn't consider to sell her sword. I was pretty sure she'd bring it to healer - who's a sorcerer and therefore ought to see its real value, - and seeing how mere asking for direction costs 5 gold there, a magical weapon is guaranteed to be worth 800 gold, if not by a degree more.

Shay

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Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
« Reply #34 on: December 08, 2012, 03:37:03 pm »
Except you can't prove it's a magical sword. If Bern had the other then maybe though.

ipatrol

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Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
« Reply #35 on: December 10, 2012, 01:10:13 am »
Those who hawk the joys of capitalism have no clue what they're talking about. Capitalism is a savage thing. It is worth noting that even this conception of anarcho-capitalism needs a small state in the form of Enforcers. Property is only as valuable as the force that protects it. Some an-caps don't want a state at all. They don't get the fact that the state is vital to capitalism as as it is what protects the interests of property from the half-starved workers below. It is telling that this fictional state defines "force" in a very loose way so as to protect property, but it is silent on economic coercion such as this healer is using. Bernadette, as do the workers of the world, are justified in not standing by as people die from lack of the essentials of life. True, the father is an alcoholic; but then why do people keep selling him liquor? Capitalism does indeed view murder as a property crime, hence why people who kill one wealthy person are killers, but the capitalist who kills thousands by depriving them of medical care is a businessman or businesswoman. That is what capitalism really means.

Kiran

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Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
« Reply #36 on: December 11, 2012, 01:18:08 am »
Except you can't prove it's a magical sword. If Bern had the other then maybe though.
But Grant sold his sword, and for money he bought booze and women for some long time it seems which killed his liver, so actually it would point that even one sword is a really pricy artifact to get.

I will just blame the whole pressure of the situation for Bern to not be able to think this through, and just panicked going with threat route.

Now since Colonel Sanders entered the scene I see it can go in three ways...
Bern will give up since her father got cured, he didn't break any laws, and Bern will take whole blame on herself.
Maybe she will continue this longer and become wanting criminal with her father on her side to escape from this country jurisdiction.
Or after explaining her situation they will work things out without involving the Enforcers.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2012, 01:58:03 am by Kiran »

9_6

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Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
« Reply #37 on: December 12, 2012, 01:07:30 pm »
Why don't they just fart lightning bolts into berns face or wrap themselves into an anti-stabify bubble of minor sworcery resistance+1?
They are 2 sorcerers after all.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2012, 01:09:22 pm by 9_6 »

Brion Foulke

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Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
« Reply #38 on: December 12, 2012, 02:34:26 pm »
Sorcerers don't all necessarily know offensive magic.

9_6

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Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
« Reply #39 on: December 12, 2012, 04:53:47 pm »
Well how about teleporting, going invisible, a bright light flash, smoke, a sudden loud noise or any other gtfo spell then.
Or enchanted items, surely she can afford those for the prices she charges and it's not that far off for her to have some of those on her.
She conducts a business that deals with life-death situations on a regular basis like an asshole after all.

I find it hard to believe that, in this universe, all she can do is just healing and is, beyond the bodyguards, otherwise 100% defenseless against someone with 0 enchanted equipment even if it is the best swordsman in the world.

Beyond that, what can bern do to keep her from simply running away?
She was standing behind her bodyguards in a doorway all along.
Must've been a long state of shock she was in.

Brion Foulke

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Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
« Reply #40 on: December 13, 2012, 01:46:25 am »
Healing is an advanced branch of sorcery and requires specialization.  It's normal for healers to not know much of any other sorcery, or at least not to have it ready.

I think long states of shock are normal.  People tend to react very slowly in crisis situations.  Besides, it all happened pretty fast anyway.

Stargoat

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Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
« Reply #41 on: December 13, 2012, 11:20:23 am »
Makes sense to me.  I wouldn't expect an ER doctor to whip out the Wing Chung when someone storms his operating table.

9_6

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Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
« Reply #42 on: December 13, 2012, 11:46:05 am »
Magic has been presented as something with no apparent limitations behind it that you "get" when you "unlock seals".
Break more seals and you can do bigger, nonspecific magic.

There has never been a distinction between different classes of magic or how to even "obtain" spells.
No one said anything when vajira sealed demons or would've said anything if she threw fireballs and no one complained about suspirias uber healing powahs that saved bern.
It's kinda inconsistent.
If you're a sorcerer, you can just "do magic" and that's it.

It's not exactly a profession like ER doctor or soldier.
At least it hasn't been established that way so far.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2012, 11:50:40 am by 9_6 »

Brion Foulke

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Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
« Reply #43 on: December 13, 2012, 04:29:12 pm »
There has never been a distinction between different classes of magic or how to even "obtain" spells.

You've probably forgotten, but the method for obtaining spells was briefly mentioned in intermission 9.  It stated that sorcerers enter a "dreamlike trance" to learn spells.  I can't remember if I've expanded on this anywhere else, but this basically means that sorcerers have to meditate and dream about specific spells in order to "learn" them.  Then they have to give that spell a name in order to recall that memory later, in order to produce the effect of the spell.  It takes practice to be able to create the effect of the spell consistently, and they have to keep dreaming about it and practicing in order to keep it ready.

Furthermore, I have not formally introduced this concept yet but there is something called "specialists," sorcerers who focus heavily on one type of magic effect to the point where they have a greater control over it and don't even need to use a key word to call upon the spell.  Generally healers tend to be the specialist type, because a high level of precision and control is required to be able to mend the human body, so most sorcerers would be unable to do it if they didn't specialize.

Incidentally, notice how Suspiria doesn't need to use keywords and seems to know a huge variety of spells.  This is decidedly not normal.  There is a reason why she has such a high opinion of herself and calls herself a genius.

So it's not that it's inconsistent (as far as I know,) it's just that there's some information I haven't given you yet.

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Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
« Reply #44 on: December 13, 2012, 05:49:28 pm »
Except you can't prove it's a magical sword. If Bern had the other then maybe though.
But Grant sold his sword, and for money he bought booze and women for some long time it seems which killed his liver, so actually it would point that even one sword is a really pricy artifact to get.

Oh yeah. Good point.

I wonder... if someone FROM Marvallo was in this situation... would they just give up and let their father die? People keep on saying "Go get more money", so would their response just be, "I should have had more money?". Is this a country of people desperately collecting money at every turn, so that they'll be prepared?

I'm guessing there aren't banks or insurance companies so...

If your house burns down, if you fall sick, if you lose your savings for whatever reason... You're just out of luck? That's it?

That seems like such a nerve wracking way to live.

Kiran

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Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
« Reply #45 on: December 14, 2012, 06:42:05 am »
Except you can't prove it's a magical sword. If Bern had the other then maybe though.
But Grant sold his sword, and for money he bought booze and women for some long time it seems which killed his liver, so actually it would point that even one sword is a really pricy artifact to get.

Oh yeah. Good point.

I wonder... if someone FROM Marvallo was in this situation... would they just give up and let their father die? People keep on saying "Go get more money", so would their response just be, "I should have had more money?". Is this a country of people desperately collecting money at every turn, so that they'll be prepared?

I'm guessing there aren't banks or insurance companies so...

If your house burns down, if you fall sick, if you lose your savings for whatever reason... You're just out of luck? That's it?

That seems like such a nerve wracking way to live.
I wouldn't go so far after seeing today's update, but it seems there's no society laws here at all, aside of that no violence law.
So everyone is for themselves, we can expect that families or friends help each other pro bono, but all other strangers or even worse outsiders?
They are out of luck if they don't have the mney up front.

We know that Polly will be back in one day, I'm really curious how deep Bern will bury herself here before that, I hope it will be the rogue wanted criminal route :P

Stargoat

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Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
« Reply #46 on: December 14, 2012, 07:59:26 am »
Bravo Brion.  Excellent update.  Very well done.

Quote
Oh yeah. Good point.

I wonder... if someone FROM Marvallo was in this situation... would they just give up and let their father die? People keep on saying "Go get more money", so would their response just be, "I should have had more money?". Is this a country of people desperately collecting money at every turn, so that they'll be prepared?

I'm guessing there aren't banks or insurance companies so...

If your house burns down, if you fall sick, if you lose your savings for whatever reason... You're just out of luck? That's it?

That seems like such a nerve wracking way to live.

There are probably strong mutual support societies, unions, etc much like the Pilot Association described by Mar Twain in Life on the Mississippi, or like Medieval guilds.  I would also expect that there are religions, etc attempting to garner support.  Heck, in a lot of ways, Marvallo could be one big revolution waiting to happen.  I wonder what affect magic would have on economic distribution....

Shay

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Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
« Reply #47 on: December 14, 2012, 12:50:27 pm »
I'd imagine it would be hard to start a community like that though. If you do a selfless act, one that loses you money, you hope that your 'friend' will help you down the line in return but... if they don't, you've lost more than you would've than by just relying only on yourself. You can't even take revenge in any way on that person, so they have nothing to fear by refusing you when you thought they would help.

I'd imagine family would be very close here though. I'm also curious if there's some way of punishing people here, without breaking the violence rule. Like, if this Healer refused care for you and your family... would you then be able to ostracize them in some way? Or... something?

Reiiama

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Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
« Reply #48 on: December 14, 2012, 01:50:21 pm »
Just a question: Between the healer and her husband/father/whatever, what is the significance of their hats? Do they represent something? A religious affiliation?

SAGG

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Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
« Reply #49 on: December 14, 2012, 02:55:47 pm »
Aha! So these folks are libertarians...  ::)

Abstract Vagabond

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Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
« Reply #50 on: December 15, 2012, 12:11:20 am »
I take objection to this version of "personal responsibility" (my political leaning lie somewhere between libertarian and anarchist, a forewarning). I'm a firm believer of personal responsibility and this character loses sight of the word "responsibility". Personal responsibility isn't devoid of consequences and neither is freedom. So, Grant drunk himself into bad health. Ok, yes, he did that to himself. However, this has gone beyond dealing with Grant. This character is dealing with Bern. He's not denying Grant help, he's denying Bern help. Sure, he may not be responsible for what happens to Grant, but he will be responsible for whatever hell Bern unleashes upon him. With his level of greed, he deserves that hell.

Kiran

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Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
« Reply #51 on: December 15, 2012, 12:35:43 am »
What if Bern here took another approach and used the guys logic against him?
Everyone has personal responsibility, and his daughter agreed upon it to perfom a task for agreed price after agreed amount of time passed.
But without any notice she called that deal off by throwing Grant out and in a way pushing Bern into this violent situation not even trying to wait.

Brion Foulke

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Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
« Reply #52 on: December 15, 2012, 05:34:11 pm »
This character is dealing with Bern. He's not denying Grant help, he's denying Bern help. Sure, he may not be responsible for what happens to Grant, but he will be responsible for whatever hell Bern unleashes upon him. With his level of greed, he deserves that hell.

That doesn't make any sense.  If you're saying he's not responsible for what happens to Grant, why would he be responsible for what happens to Bern?  The point isn't that only "responsible" people deserve help; rather just that personal responsibility is necessary in a land of so much freedom, and part of that freedom is getting to choose who you will help.

What if Bern here took another approach and used the guys logic against him?
Everyone has personal responsibility, and his daughter agreed upon it to perfom a task for agreed price after agreed amount of time passed.  But without any notice she called that deal off by throwing Grant out and in a way pushing Bern into this violent situation not even trying to wait.

I think that would be a hollow point for Bern to try to make, since afterall there was no way she could have gotten the money in 15 minutes.  Besides, I don't think you're quite grasping his point: it's that in Marvallo personal responsibility is a necessary price they pay for having so much freedom and not having to pay taxes.  In this context "personal responsibility" means being able to take care of yourself.

perechon

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Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
« Reply #53 on: December 17, 2012, 02:30:04 pm »
Freedom? Good thing!
BUT! Bernadette has also the need for this freedom. She wants to care for her father? She should have the possibility to do this! The healer and her husband (?) don?t give her so much freedom by choosing to set the price for the healing ridiculously high. What about some alternatives for payment? They say, that they value freedom highest, but obviously only their own freedom...

ipatrol

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Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
« Reply #54 on: December 18, 2012, 02:25:11 am »
This character is dealing with Bern. He's not denying Grant help, he's denying Bern help. Sure, he may not be responsible for what happens to Grant, but he will be responsible for whatever hell Bern unleashes upon him. With his level of greed, he deserves that hell.

That doesn't make any sense.  If you're saying he's not responsible for what happens to Grant, why would he be responsible for what happens to Bern?  The point isn't that only "responsible" people deserve help; rather just that personal responsibility is necessary in a land of so much freedom, and part of that freedom is getting to choose who you will help.

What if Bern here took another approach and used the guys logic against him?
Everyone has personal responsibility, and his daughter agreed upon it to perfom a task for agreed price after agreed amount of time passed.  But without any notice she called that deal off by throwing Grant out and in a way pushing Bern into this violent situation not even trying to wait.

I think that would be a hollow point for Bern to try to make, since afterall there was no way she could have gotten the money in 15 minutes.  Besides, I don't think you're quite grasping his point: it's that in Marvallo personal responsibility is a necessary price they pay for having so much freedom and not having to pay taxes.  In this context "personal responsibility" means being able to take care of yourself.

You have a curious definition of freedom. In this, as with all capitalist societies, you are only as free as your next meal or paycheck. Freedom from want is as essential as all other freedoms. Otherwise you are forced to work at whatever wages are offered to be able to eat. There is nothing for the unemployed, the physically and mentally disabled, the sick, the elderly, or the orphans. If your choice is to do what those who have wealth demand of you or else starve, how is that not force?

Furthermore, you bring in personal responsibility into alcoholism. Few associations could be more counterfactual. Alcoholism is a disease of addiction. It eats a person as surely as cancer. This man needs help, not an ideological scolding. You do a disservice to all alcoholics, recovering or otherwise, by pinning the blame on them for their mental illness.

Brion Foulke

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Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
« Reply #55 on: December 19, 2012, 06:57:37 am »
You have a curious definition of freedom. In this, as with all capitalist societies, you are only as free as your next meal or paycheck. Freedom from want is as essential as all other freedoms. Otherwise you are forced to work at whatever wages are offered to be able to eat. There is nothing for the unemployed, the physically and mentally disabled, the sick, the elderly, or the orphans. If your choice is to do what those who have wealth demand of you or else starve, how is that not force?

You're absolutely right.  There's more than one way to look at it.

Furthermore, you bring in personal responsibility into alcoholism. Few associations could be more counterfactual. Alcoholism is a disease of addiction. It eats a person as surely as cancer. This man needs help, not an ideological scolding. You do a disservice to all alcoholics, recovering or otherwise, by pinning the blame on them for their mental illness.

I don't agree with this part.  The reasons behind his drinking are more complicated than that.

BurnGarn

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Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
« Reply #56 on: December 19, 2012, 02:15:18 pm »
I love the hypocrisy in this chapter.

Having the average conservative old guy talking about freedom and personal responsibility on one hand, and on the other they're essentially coerced into paying protection money/dues to the enforcers under the implied threat of having no oppressive state goons there to ensure their continued ability to make money. Government by the rich, for the rich, beholden to the rich, and those who have no money to pay the enforcers have neither the protection needed to make money nor the money to buy said protection. Thus, the system of perpetual poverty for all but the noble owning class and their government cohorts eventually became known as capitalism. And lo and behold, some in Americ-I mean Marvallo even began to think that it was such a grand system of economics, that they would be just fine without the Enforcers there in the first place. Talk about biting the hand that feeds you, after the Enforcers worked so hard to set them up as a second, completely unaccountable branch of the ruling class.

Oh, wait, that hasn't happened yet in the comic. Yeah, it's probably too early to talk about chapter 60.

Still, I did enjoy Bern resorting to violence, state Enforcers be damned. Hopefully she'll watch out for "Magic Drone" strikes or being indefinitely detained. If not, she might have to be imprisoned by Enforcer's while the old guy lectures her about how he does everything himself and doesn't rely on anyone else for anything. All within earshot of the Enforcers that came to his aid. Truly, it would be a fate worse than Kin's. :D

sunphoenix

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Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
« Reply #57 on: December 19, 2012, 03:16:22 pm »
I love the hypocrisy in this chapter.

Having the average conservative old guy talking about freedom and personal responsibility on one hand, and on the other they're essentially coerced into paying protection money/dues to the enforcers under the implied threat of having no oppressive state goons there to ensure their continued ability to make money. Government by the rich, for the rich, beholden to the rich, and those who have no money to pay the enforcers have neither the protection needed to make money nor the money to buy said protection. Thus, the system of perpetual poverty for all but the noble owning class and their government cohorts eventually became known as capitalism. And lo and behold, some in Americ-I mean Marvallo even began to think that it was such a grand system of economics, that they would be just fine without the Enforcers there in the first place. Talk about biting the hand that feeds you, after the Enforcers worked so hard to set them up as a second, completely unaccountable branch of the ruling class.

Oh, wait, that hasn't happened yet in the comic. Yeah, it's probably too early to talk about chapter 60.

Still, I did enjoy Bern resorting to violence, state Enforcers be damned. Hopefully she'll watch out for "Magic Drone" strikes or being indefinitely detained. If not, she might have to be imprisoned by Enforcer's while the old guy lectures her about how he does everything himself and doesn't rely on anyone else for anything. All within earshot of the Enforcers that came to his aid. Truly, it would be a fate worse than Kin's. :D

Hey just who are you poking at here?  Is that a troll I hear...?

Brion Foulke NEVER said or claimed that the Marvallo system... such as it is not; was perfect, ideal or even desirable!  He is not as far as I can see needling anyone's society or making a statement of philosophy about the real world or the morals or lack thereof of a 'Pure' {if such a thing actually exists... I can't see any modern government that fits that description} Capitalist society.

He has merely presented a divergant society with really unique and strange values as a story plot... nothing more.

So you can take you America-bashing and spew it elsewhere... thank you.  Our country is FAR from perfect.. but is no more egregious than any other nation devised by man's philosophy or reasoning!  There is no utopia... it exists as a concept in our hearts a goal to strive for.  Perhaps... someday... god-willing, we will achieve it.

Lets get back on topic... 'Isn't Bern cute when she's angry!' :)
« Last Edit: December 19, 2012, 03:19:27 pm by sunphoenix »
"...no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free.  No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything - you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is Kill him." - Robert A. Heinlein


Brion Foulke

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Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
« Reply #58 on: December 19, 2012, 04:01:34 pm »
Hey just who are you poking at here?  Is that a troll I hear...?

Please don't call people trolls.  I find that to be much too dismissive.

Brion Foulke NEVER said or claimed that the Marvallo system... such as it is not; was perfect, ideal or even desirable!  He is not as far as I can see needling anyone's society or making a statement of philosophy about the real world or the morals or lack thereof of a 'Pure' {if such a thing actually exists... I can't see any modern government that fits that description} Capitalist society.

He has merely presented a divergant society with really unique and strange values as a story plot... nothing more.

Thanks.  You're right, I not advocating any one political system over another.  But to be fair, I can't see where BurnGarn accused me of that either, to me it just seemed like he was railing against that political philosophy, which is a quite fair for him to do, IMO.  I actually like the idea that the chapter's events might inspire some political discussions.  Just so long as it doesn't get out of hand.

Abstract Vagabond

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Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
« Reply #59 on: December 20, 2012, 12:15:49 pm »
This character is dealing with Bern. He's not denying Grant help, he's denying Bern help. Sure, he may not be responsible for what happens to Grant, but he will be responsible for whatever hell Bern unleashes upon him. With his level of greed, he deserves that hell.

That doesn't make any sense.  If you're saying he's not responsible for what happens to Grant, why would he be responsible for what happens to Bern?  The point isn't that only "responsible" people deserve help; rather just that personal responsibility is necessary in a land of so much freedom, and part of that freedom is getting to choose who you will help.

What if Bern here took another approach and used the guys logic against him?
Everyone has personal responsibility, and his daughter agreed upon it to perfom a task for agreed price after agreed amount of time passed.  But without any notice she called that deal off by throwing Grant out and in a way pushing Bern into this violent situation not even trying to wait.

I think that would be a hollow point for Bern to try to make, since afterall there was no way she could have gotten the money in 15 minutes.  Besides, I don't think you're quite grasping his point: it's that in Marvallo personal responsibility is a necessary price they pay for having so much freedom and not having to pay taxes.  In this context "personal responsibility" means being able to take care of yourself.

I will gather that I didn't convey my words right. I'm not good at making arguments. I do know my stances and what could rub me the wrong way. It's just that the page gave off a negative vibe on "personal responsibility" to me. I also may have given it injustice with bad usage of words. I think where I was going with this (and I may still be using the wrong words) is that I got the impression that there is this direction that personal responsibility and self-centeredness is one in the same. I know people use it that way and accept whatever happens, but you also have the selfless with the same beliefs. Maybe it's all the political crap I keep hearing that's made me so defensive (and maybe irrational lol). It's just become a sore spot.

Of course, having Bern try to force help out of people with the use of violence was a disservice to her cause. And maybe this is where you were going that I didn't catch on to. On one coin, you have the greedy side of freedom and on the other, the desire to bring generosity from people via use of enslavement. The decision on who is good and who is bad in this conflict while forgetting that many conflicts have no good side does tend to be a blind spot.

All in all, it is a good storyline. :)