Author Topic: Chapter 50: Discussion  (Read 3761 times)

bulmabriefs144

  • Hot Streaker
  • **
  • Posts: 415
  • Wielder of the Sword of Sorrow
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 50: Discussion
« Reply #30 on: March 28, 2018, 03:30:17 am »
Occam's Razor is that magic does exist, until proven otherwise.

1. Lehm's power is not the truth, it is simply a magical device for recording truth. The distinction is there, given that which great power comes great insanity.
2. Eye seems unconvinced of the existence of Qualia, as does CS3.
3. In fact, the only conclusive link to Qualia would be with Qtalda's microorganisms that eat human flesh, and she doesn't seem to know either.

Given this, it is possible the brush just spit out a random theory. Maybe not probable, but possible.

It's like this. If we could wave a magical paintbrush and know the truth, all would be great, but reality doesn't work that way. In fact, there is an entire branch of knowledge known as methodology, that figures out "how do we KNOW what we know?" Sadly, this system has fallen into disrepair, as evidenced by religion and philosophy webforums.

Further, we do know that fourth level has to do with mastering one's emotions, and Lehm as a 3rd level truth specialist also would have gotten in there without breaking any seals. Meaning his concept of the truth could very well be influenced by his emotions.

I'm not gonna talk about Melter yet. I gotta head to work soon.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2018, 05:04:26 am by bulmabriefs144 »
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

Stargoat

  • Hot Streaker
  • **
  • Posts: 447
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 50: Discussion
« Reply #31 on: March 28, 2018, 07:17:00 am »
I'm inclined to agree with SunPhoenix.

Melter is a known liar. He (She?) is, near as I can tell, a very bad person. Without significant proof, Suspira should just meteo him.

bulmabriefs144

  • Hot Streaker
  • **
  • Posts: 415
  • Wielder of the Sword of Sorrow
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 50: Discussion
« Reply #32 on: March 28, 2018, 11:32:47 am »
Known liar???

He uhhh normally doesn't speak that much at all.

He's a known thug (basically killing everyone in a room to get to May), but I can't remember him outright lying, like ever.

He's an artificial human, but this doesnt seem to translate into dishonesty.
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

sunphoenix

  • Cage Dancer
  • **
  • Posts: 371
  • "..you have to give love to get love." -Wendy Pini
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Chapter 50: Discussion
« Reply #33 on: March 30, 2018, 02:46:51 am »
Hmmmm... this is...a slippery slope here.  I'm almost always immediately suspicious of some one who tells me that your perception of reality is not what you think it is let ME tell you how it really is.

In MY case I would say... ok if you think your view of reality is 'clearer' prove it with facts convince me of the veracity of those claims with evidence.

BUT case in point here... Melter's 'claims' don't have to have ANY conclusive evidence cause his proof is 'oh your rewriting reality subconsciously so facts and memories are not going to prove anything... just trust what I'm saying is true.

WHY should Suspiria believe him at all?  He has brought no hard evidence to support his claims and if he was interested in convincing her she is mistaken.. why did he not just bring her living parents there to speak to her?  IF he knows her parents are alive and he wants to convince her that she has rewritten the conclave's memories why didn't he do that in the first place?

AGAIN.. why is it so complicated that SHE, Suspiria, is the one making the Conclave ALL of them behave like scheming evil murderers and NOT the conclave leader as well ~ by "altering their memories unconsciously"... if memories CAN be altered that way...

Occam's Razor ~ Is it STILL not simpler that Qtalda ~ who has motivation, and power to do so has CONSCIOUSLY altered everyone's memories to serve her own purpose to conceal HER murder of Suspiria's parents?

If I were Suspiria I'd then say bring forth these people who claim to be my parents and let me question them... if memories can be altered and people EVEN brought back to life by magic... let me question them and see for myself if they actually are my parents or if that is simply what they've been mind altered to believe!

Honestly.. this ALL seems like the writer trying to write himself out of a plot hole... not a serious criticism it happens.. but the drama of Suspiria taking on the entire Conclave and winning was a real high point in the story as far as I'm concerned.. and I'm not so willing to "let it go in favor of a new direction"... without good solid storytelling to justify it.  THIS just all seems too Deus Ex-Machina...to me.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2018, 02:56:09 am by sunphoenix »
"...no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free.  No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything - you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is Kill him." - Robert A. Heinlein


Kamui

  • Tender Young Virgin
  • *
  • Posts: 21
    • MSN Messenger - kamuihyuga@gmail.com
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Chapter 50: Discussion
« Reply #34 on: March 30, 2018, 04:19:24 am »
I'd wager that the reality alteration only works locally, including the altering of memories.  After all, the brain is basically just a jumble of chemicals and electric impulses firing, so magic could potentially tweak stuff so that your memories get rewritten a bit.  It's actually possible that any rewriting of memories she does is just temporary, and requires her constant presence even.  Hence why the only one that's continually affected by the physical/mental changes is Suspiria herself.  And why stuff is constantly changing in the town so long as she's there.  I'd ALSO wager that the reason that everyone was acting so strangely?  Was because Suspiria was subconsciously influencing their minds.  Whatever traits she felt was their "true" self, and whatever she interpreted as the cause/reason for their actions in the past, particularly regarding Suspiria, is what became their most prominent traits and what they decided was why they did the things they did.

Glyph for example didn't seem the type to feel bad over being a pervert, and Moby went way further than she did before with Crest.  Meanwhile Crest SEEMS to be mostly unaffected, but it might be because Suspiria considers him to be calm and collected, which isn't too far off from how he's appeared to us as readers.  Basically everyone's acting how Suspiria thinks they would act due to her influence, and stuff she can't remember or doesn't pay much attention to in the town is changing from day to day.

bulmabriefs144

  • Hot Streaker
  • **
  • Posts: 415
  • Wielder of the Sword of Sorrow
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 50: Discussion
« Reply #35 on: March 30, 2018, 02:38:06 pm »
Comments in blue


BUT case in point here... Melter's 'claims' don't have to have ANY conclusive evidence cause his proof is 'oh your rewriting reality subconsciously so facts and memories are not going to prove anything... just trust what I'm saying is true.

WHY should Suspiria believe him at all?  He has brought no hard evidence to support his claims and if he was interested in convincing her she is mistaken.. why did he not just bring her living parents there to speak to her?  IF he knows her parents are alive and he wants to convince her that she has rewritten the conclave's memories why didn't he do that in the first place?

Sure he does. A theory that is true had a viable explanation for everything. A lie? Well, it's like Columbo says. A lie is like a puzzle, where the puzzle pieces don't match up. Reason for hair extensions? Check. Reason why the town and its inhabitants are strange? Check. Reason for a sudden spike in power? Check.

Plus, Suspiria is all "that's not true, that's impossible" on this. She'll have to search her feelings cuz she knows it to be true.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pw2sex1mJNI


AGAIN.. why is it so complicated that SHE, Suspiria, is the one making the Conclave ALL of them behave like scheming evil murderers and NOT the conclave leader as well ~ by "altering their memories unconsciously"... if memories CAN be altered that way...

Occam's Razor ~ Is it STILL not simpler that Qtalda ~ who has motivation, and power to do so has CONSCIOUSLY altered everyone's memories to serve her own purpose to conceal HER murder of Suspiria's parents?

I keep telling people. Occam's Razor is not unassailable. "If you hear hoofbeats, expect horses, not zebras." But what if you live in an area where zebras are common? What if there is reason why things are different from the most reasonable result?

As far as Qtalda's concerned, she is still an evil bitch. But this doesn't obstruct the real issue. Suspiria's power being out of control


If I were Suspiria I'd then say bring forth these people who claim to be my parents and let me question them... if memories can be altered and people EVEN brought back to life by magic... let me question them and see for myself if they actually are my parents or if that is simply what they've been mind altered to believe!

Honestly.. this ALL seems like the writer trying to write himself out of a plot hole... not a serious criticism it happens.. but the drama of Suspiria taking on the entire Conclave and winning was a real high point in the story as far as I'm concerned.. and I'm not so willing to "let it go in favor of a new direction"... without good solid storytelling to justify it.  THIS just all seems too Deus Ex-Machina...to me.


Actually, the whole deal isn't Deus ex Machina, because we had clear setup to this. She was OP and steadily growing in power, they actually showed all of this stuff.

Suspiria resenting Qtalda for kidnapping her from her family
Hatred of the Conclave
Lack of emotional control
Melter literally mentions the Seed of Potential well before she kills the Conclave
CS3 confirms that there is another side of the world, with apparently differences in magic
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

sunphoenix

  • Cage Dancer
  • **
  • Posts: 371
  • "..you have to give love to get love." -Wendy Pini
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Chapter 50: Discussion
« Reply #36 on: April 02, 2018, 06:05:44 am »
Hmmm... considering your points... that seems reasonable and does explain the events in the plot the way things have unfolded.  I can see your point and agree.  This must be where Byron is going with the story and the events do support it.  I'm convinced...

Man I feel really sorry for Suspiria.. how does one control one's own subconscious if it has access to such power without your active control?  That must suck, its the Krell of "Forbidden Planet" all over again!
"...no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free.  No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything - you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is Kill him." - Robert A. Heinlein


Brion Foulke

  • Administrator
  • Experimental
  • *****
  • Posts: 774
    • AOL Instant Messenger - flipsider99
    • View Profile
    • www.flipsidecomics.com
    • Email
Re: Chapter 50: Discussion
« Reply #37 on: April 03, 2018, 03:37:02 pm »
I won't confirm or deny anything, but I just have to say something about Occam's Razor.  it only makes sense to use it for real world problems.  I see people use it all the time to analyze fiction, and it makes no sense to use it that way.  Fiction does not comform to the "simplest explanation is usually the best" rule, not at all!  Fiction is often contrived, complex, convoluted.  In fact, even when it's trying to hide it's contrivances, it's always at least a little contrived.  Writers certainly don't choose plots on the basis of "the simplest answers," they choose whatever seems interesting or exciting.

If anything you'd be better off using Opposite Occam's Razor for fiction.  "The most complicated answer is usually correct."  That's probably true more of the time!

sunphoenix

  • Cage Dancer
  • **
  • Posts: 371
  • "..you have to give love to get love." -Wendy Pini
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Chapter 50: Discussion
« Reply #38 on: April 05, 2018, 04:58:33 am »
OH MYyyy! The Divine Red Lobster Speaks! :)

Lol.. thanks for the input Brion...and please don't read too much into our 'arm-chair' commentary..{snicker}... I for one GREATLY enjoy your story as it unfolds.. but point taken about applying 'real-World' logic to a fantasy world!  :-*

I just hope Suspiria can forgive herself and Crest can forgive her and still care for her even if her reality is not what she believes it to be!  "With great power come Great Mental Illness!"

But it would be a shame for her to loose her sanity and love merely because she is like a Super Dr. Strange, I hope Crest can step up to the plate with his own compassion.. and SAVE her from that!

As the Bards of Jefferson Airplane put it well... if repetitively ~

"Don't you want somebody to love
Don't you need somebody to love
Wouldn't you love somebody to love
You better find somebody to love, love"


Perhaps...that's the key to her sanity as Crest 'seems' to be the one person unaffected by her reality warping?  Because... Suspiria loves him...
« Last Edit: April 05, 2018, 05:05:55 am by sunphoenix »
"...no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free.  No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything - you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is Kill him." - Robert A. Heinlein


bulmabriefs144

  • Hot Streaker
  • **
  • Posts: 415
  • Wielder of the Sword of Sorrow
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 50: Discussion
« Reply #39 on: April 05, 2018, 02:49:37 pm »
I won't confirm or deny anything, but I just have to say something about Occam's Razor.  it only makes sense to use it for real world problems.  I see people use it all the time to analyze fiction, and it makes no sense to use it that way.  Fiction does not comform to the "simplest explanation is usually the best" rule, not at all!  Fiction is often contrived, complex, convoluted.  In fact, even when it's trying to hide it's contrivances, it's always at least a little contrived.  Writers certainly don't choose plots on the basis of "the simplest answers," they choose whatever seems interesting or exciting.

If anything you'd be better off using Opposite Occam's Razor for fiction.  "The most complicated answer is usually correct."  That's probably true more of the time!

I would call it Tolkien's Dagger. "Whatever answer is most in line with what the author wants, complicated or not, is usually what will happen." So named for the fact that Tolkien's work was almost certain to exactly include whatever he planned, in his case mostly being an excessive amount of history and linguistic information, Norse myth with Christian overtones, and stealth humor (Bag End represented a cul de sac in England filled with old people).

Which effectively also means Dan Shive's work will feature a huge amount of transformations and esp gender stuff :-*, while Tom Siddons will have creepy imagery and high level philosophy  :-X, and Brion Foulke will tend to keep you guessing with false leads.  ???   

Quote
Perhaps...that's the key to her sanity as Crest 'seems' to be the one person unaffected by her reality warping?  Because... Suspiria loves him...

Indirectly unaffected.

Moby is basically acting as a proxy for Suspiria's feelings. She's one horny gal.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2018, 03:03:39 pm by bulmabriefs144 »
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

SAGG

  • Red Light Worker
  • **
  • Posts: 225
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 50: Discussion
« Reply #40 on: April 05, 2018, 03:32:47 pm »
Uh-oh. It's getting really interesting and nasty now....  :-X

Stargoat

  • Hot Streaker
  • **
  • Posts: 447
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 50: Discussion
« Reply #41 on: April 05, 2018, 05:14:26 pm »
Meteo him. He's very bad and does bad things to decent people.

Stargoat

  • Hot Streaker
  • **
  • Posts: 447
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 50: Discussion
« Reply #42 on: April 09, 2018, 03:43:28 pm »
I'm easily confused, but when did Chrest get that orb?

sunphoenix

  • Cage Dancer
  • **
  • Posts: 371
  • "..you have to give love to get love." -Wendy Pini
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Chapter 50: Discussion
« Reply #43 on: April 11, 2018, 11:32:28 pm »
I'm easily confused, but when did Chrest get that orb?

Here...

http://flipside.keenspot.com/comic.php?i=3431

Last chapter.

Moment of truth.. no more stalling Crest.. How do you REALLY Feel for Suspira?
"...no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free.  No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything - you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is Kill him." - Robert A. Heinlein


sunphoenix

  • Cage Dancer
  • **
  • Posts: 371
  • "..you have to give love to get love." -Wendy Pini
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Chapter 50: Discussion
« Reply #44 on: April 13, 2018, 05:41:41 am »
WRONG Moby!

Crest is holding the Sphere of Antimagic.. HE 'Right NOW' is the LEAST affected than anyone present... if he still loves Suspira..
then it most CERTAINLY is HIS Love, not from any outside influence!!!

'Cause you'll be in my heart
Yes, you'll be in my heart
From this day on
Now and forever more
You'll be in my heart
No matter what they say
You'll be here in my heart
Always!
« Last Edit: April 13, 2018, 05:48:36 am by sunphoenix »
"...no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free.  No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything - you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is Kill him." - Robert A. Heinlein


bulmabriefs144

  • Hot Streaker
  • **
  • Posts: 415
  • Wielder of the Sword of Sorrow
    • View Profile
Re: Chapter 50: Discussion
« Reply #45 on: April 16, 2018, 04:07:40 pm »
Open to debate.

Crest and Suspiria had about one or two hangout scenes before her change. They were kinda just friends though.

Suspiria does kind of like Crest, but there's also a healthy dose of Replacement Goldfish.

http://flipside.keenspot.com/comic.php?i=1171
http://flipside.keenspot.com/comic.php?i=1235

Crest on the other hand... didn't appear to be under a love spell. Most of his behavior was fairly normal (kinda a shy next-door neighbor romance), except for his drive to train. I couldn't figure out where that came from.

http://flipside.keenspot.com/comic.php?i=1145

(I don't see anyone under a charm spell getting this argumentative)

http://flipside.keenspot.com/comic.php?i=1241


Moby, it felt like she was acting out Suspiria's feelings, it was really super-obvious that something was wrong. Crest? Not as much, anyway.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2018, 04:18:52 pm by bulmabriefs144 »
"この世界の悪があれば本当に、それは人類の心の内にあります."
(Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind)
—Edward D. Morrison

sunphoenix

  • Cage Dancer
  • **
  • Posts: 371
  • "..you have to give love to get love." -Wendy Pini
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Chapter 50: Discussion
« Reply #46 on: April 19, 2018, 07:21:53 pm »
Yes indeed, Mrs Briefs... I concur entirely!
"...no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free.  No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything - you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is Kill him." - Robert A. Heinlein