Chapter 23: Discussion

[RoninAngel]

That dude seems mean. Whatever. She should do it. At least they would get out of this hotel hell. But Maytag has but every skill point in bluff, diplomacy, sense motive, and intimidate. She'll be able to negotiate a way out of this, probably without cheating on Bernadette.


...
Even if Bernadette doesn't deserve her. 
CREST/MAYTAG 4 EVER!!!

[charles]

Hard to say.  Maytag has nothing to negotiate with.  No leverage she can hold over or against Moss.  Thats what she had in her previous negotiations.  With Derriks she gained the illusion of control over the situation by making him believe she held his life in her hands.  With the gang members she gained leverage with her antidote and show of skill with the knives.  With Bloody Mary she gained the leverage of being able to offer her a possible cure.

I can't see how in this case that she has anything more to offer Moss as a bargaining chip (other than sex) or any way to threaten him... Unless she agreed to sex to get him close and then took control, but Moss might be prepared for that.  He was only a new level 2 sorcerer when he left her but he's been with his uncle for 6 months and it wouldn't surprise me if he could train up fairly fast under such a sorcerer.

[Shay]

He was only a new level 2 sorcerer when he left her but he's been with his uncle for 6 months and it wouldn't surprise me if he could train up fairly fast under such a sorcerer.

If his uncle was that great of a sorcerer, why would he need Seraph in the first place?

[charles]

Why do years of research yourself when someone's already done the hard work for you *lol*

Plus Seraph may have found a few things he hadn't or been able to access a few archives and places that Danzig didn't have access to.

[Hans]

If his uncle was that great of a sorcerer, why would he need Seraph in the first place?

Seraph was not only a great sorcerer, he also had money and contacts. Both can go a long way, when doing researches.

[9_6]

Aw, moss returned to his old state of dickness.
Wonderful.

[CrystalDragonSpaceMarine]

Also, maybe Danzig didn't want to train his scrub nephew up to level 2?

[RoninAngel]

We haven't actually seen Danzig use any actual magic. He could just be a really dickish muggle for all we know.
I mean in this B&B you should not take anything for granted because everything is likely to be a lie.

[Kamui]

Is it just me, or am I the only one that noticed that Moss just gave Maytag a nice bit of info?  The fact that the Thin Man could experiment on Bern tells May a couple of things: 1) That she is in a place where he can easily access Bern, and 2) That Moss (and likely the others) are aware of this, and thus it's possible that they are working with the Thin Man.  Moss may actually still be trying to help May in his own way.  He knows the area better than her, and most likely knows that she wouldn't be able to escape just by getting out of the cell.

[RoninAngel]

Ouch. Poor Maytag.   

You were right Charles. Nothing to bargain with.   

I would do it if I was Maytag, but then again, if I was Maytag, I would never fall in love with Bernadette in the first place.

It's too bad too, because the more difficult it is for Maytag to rescue everyone, the more pages need to be wasted on Danzig and his ever-increasing circus of douchebags. 

[Shay]

Why do years of research yourself when someone's already done the hard work for you *lol*

Plus Seraph may have found a few things he hadn't or been able to access a few archives and places that Danzig didn't have access to.

...Good point.


Something strikes me as odd about Moss's behaviour though. Why is he trying so hard to sleep with Maytag? What's the point? I know he made a pass at her before, in Book 0, but that was because he was lonely and thought she was easy. Forcing her to sleep with him doesn't really fit. And when she turned him down he didn't seem vengeful about it. Plus, they parted on extremely good terms. So... he's either torturing her for the hell of it, no complex reason needed, or... something else we don't know about?

Assuming that this is actually Moss. It could just be Fata Morgana. Again.

[Foof]

Woow, Moss.  Way to be a dick.  But with this many people trying to lay with her, something's going on.  The secret of the Universe MUST BE in her lady bits.

[Kiran]

The secret of the Universe MUST BE in her lady bits.

looking that Thin man only chooses women as his experiments then maybe...

Still that would mean that Crest and Glyph are goners cause they aren't needed, or they will become Denzig's personal slaves.

The only msolution I can see is Glyph coming back (of course he might''ve been the first who was abducted and then replaced by Fata when he gone to sandwich) and do something, or Bloody Mary comes at scene breaking may from her prison.

Yeah Bloody Mary as a hero would be my choice here if that's even possible.

[charles]

hmmm, I'm actually worried about her calling after him in the next page.

I guess Moss has confirmed for sure that they're in league with The Thin Man.  But it seems a little in contrast with Danzig's comments that the thin man isn't planning to experiment on them but recruit them.

http://www.flipsidecomics.com/comic.php?i=889
http://www.flipsidecomics.com/comic.php?i=918

I can't see any reason for Danzig to lie in the pages so either he has a warped idea of "recruitment", he's unaware of exactly whats happening to the people he sends to The Thin Man (or Melter) or Moss is pushing a lie to get his way with Maytag... which Maytag might be able to see through if she gets an opportunity to see his reactions better or listen to him explain more.

[Oddball]

Well there is no chance of May tunneling her way out 

[charles]

Heck, we still don't know about Bern, Crest and Glyph.  Maytag's in a cell but maybe that really is part of the tests they're doing together with Moss' current attempt.  Suspira is laid down but she might be still be legitimately unconscious from her overexertion rather than any spell they've cast on her.

[Azure Priest]

Moss, your behavior is despicable. There is absolutely NOTHING "cool" about demanding sex from anyone who is denied the right to say "no." 

As for those who would have acquiesced (agreed) to Moss' demands, I have seen far too many times where the prisoner AGREED, slept with the "accomplice" and then the "accomplice" deliberately FOILS the escape attempt. There is no guarantee that agreeing would have resulted in his help.

Now had Moss rescued Maytag UP front, and she, Bern, or even SUSPIRA had been grateful enough to sleep with him afterwards, of her own volition, that would be different. Heck, even owing him a "big favor" would have been far preferable. Demanding that she prostitute herself before even lifting a finger to help, is inexcusable. I hope a meteor lands on him.

[BlueNymph]

Wow.  I knew Moss was selfish, cruel, and slightly mentally deranged due to his "curse" and his messed up childhood, but I'd never truly thought of him as "evil" before today's (wednesday's) comic.  Wow. Great writing...really curious where this will all end up!

[JewelOfSong]

NOOOOOOOOO, Maytag, don't do it!

[RoninAngel]

This is way better.
At least it advances the plot and gets them out of here. 

Way to go Maytag. Way to be brave and willing to sacrifice yourself for the good of your friends. It sucks that Moss has to be so evil, but some folks are just morally bankrupt. And they get it in the end.

[Furcas]

If the dilemma is taken at face value (i.e. Moss isn't 'testing' Maytag, and he isn't lying about his intent to help her), then Maytag is definitely doing the right thing. I think even Bernadette would agree with me, since it's not just her life and/or freedom that are at stake, but also Maytag's, Crest's, Suspiria's, and Glyph's.

Of course, chances are that Moss is lying.

[Kiran]

Shit...

I still hope May will lure him and then attack and will get out locking him instead.

Damn May think rational, you're clever cookie, and you see now that Moss is just an evil jerk who needs to be beaten.

[akashayi]

tits!

Yeah, I would bet that Moss is lying.

[Dragonizer]

Moss is a class A douche. I'm hoping May will, like Kiran suggested, lure him in and then run for it. She definitely wouldn't be able to overpower him, but the element of surprise would really work in her favor... Say, throwing that towel on his face and getting out, then locking her in. I mean, even in desperation, I can't really see her agreeing to have sex with him now.

[charles]

hmmm, I'm actually worried about her calling after him in the next page.

Damn... Yeah, if this goes ahead it advances the plot significantly.  We skip Maytag having to talk her way out of it and put a threat to Bern and Maytag's relationship back into play.  It'll be interesting to see if Maytag keeps it to herself or decides to be honest with Bern.

Two more pages left in the chapter... a lot can happen in two pages.  If we're talking brawn, I'd bet Maytag to be a much better fighter than Moss, but she's down an arm and has only a sheet to maybe use as a weapon... Plus Moss can rely on Magick if he can get a word out. 

[rachel12]

Okay, for me this raises another question, IF Moss does have sex with Maytag, would he not then be a rapist? Here's a paste from a on-line dictionary at http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/rape to save looking:

rape,  noun, verb, raped, rap⋅ing
1. the unlawful compelling of a woman through physical force or duress to have sexual intercourse.
2. any act of sexual intercourse that is forced upon a person.

Moss is using duress to have Maytag have sex with him, if it happens its rape, Maytag would be a victim, and I would wonder just how she'll react to it afterwards. Maybe she'll be able to keep herself together when she's wearing her jester outfit, she can't wear it all the time, and I can she her more...timid personality having a very hard time.

[RoninAngel]

You read it on the internet so it must be true...

Moss is using blackmail to try to get Maytag to sleep with him. It's unquestionably evil, but whether it's rape is more subjective. Not to put too fine a point on it but in most states in the United States, for example, the duress being referred to is physical duress; i.e. threatening someone's life, not refusing to help them.  And even if it is rape Maytag doesn't seem like the type to take it like you seem to imply. She has dealt with this kind of thing before, the assault by Volger was unquestionably sexual, and Maytag turned out fine. Additionally, Maytag is used quite used to non-sexual violence.
Rape (and by extension, violence) is not really the issue here, it's the fact the Maytag is being forced to choose between breaking her promise to Bernadette, or to allow for Bernadette's gruesome and horribly painful demise.
In that light, her choice is obvious, but not in anyway pleasant.

 

[CrystalDragonSpaceMarine]

You read it on the internet so it must be true...

Moss is using blackmail to try to get Maytag to sleep with him. It's unquestionably evil, but whether it's rape is more subjective. Not to put too fine a point on it but in most states in the United States, for example, the duress being referred to is physical duress; i.e. threatening someone's life, not refusing to help them.  And even if it is rape Maytag doesn't seem like the type to take it like you seem to imply. She has dealt with this kind of thing before, the assault by Volger was unquestionably sexual, and Maytag turned out fine. Additionally, Maytag is used quite used to non-sexual violence.
Rape (and by extension, violence) is not really the issue here, it's the fact the Maytag is being forced to choose between breaking her promise to Bernadette, or to allow for Bernadette's gruesome and horribly painful demise.
In that light, her choice is obvious, but not in anyway pleasant.

 

In the legal sense, perhaps not, and in the technical sense, it's not, but I'd certainly say it's accurate to call this the moral equivalent of rape.

[rachel12]

I have to disagree with you, in my view, and as you said it can be views. Maytag has stated that she was not interested in sex with Moss, she's in a dangerous situation. She's being held against her will, by people she has nothing to do with. Her lover is missing and she has no idea about her safety. This is more than just about a broken promise. She's been forced into making a decision against her will. If not for her own safety, maybe for Bern's. I would call what Moss is doing rape.

If a mother is being held against her will, and her child is being held somewhere else, and someone told her she'll be released if she has sex with them, I would NOT call that consensual, that would be rape. Again, this is my view, you can hold a different one and not call it rape, if you don't, then we'll just have to agree that we disagree.

[charles]

For the discussion on how much Maytag cares about being raped:



As for the rest of the discussion on Rape Vs Consensual sex or blackmailing, etc.  There's a topic in the debate room for it.

http://www.flipsidecomics.com/forum/index.php?topic=215.0