Author Topic: Chapter 23: Discussion  (Read 97136 times)

RoninAngel

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Re: Chapter 23: Discussion
« Reply #210 on: November 24, 2009, 10:49:51 pm »
The thing that is most noticeable to me is the fact the comic cuts out at the midpoint of her sentence. She may be flagrantly comparing homosexuality to raping chickens and young children, but it is impossible to disagree with her without hearing her complete thought.

But... well... sodomy is not the same as pedophilia. Just sayin'.
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Re: Chapter 23: Discussion
« Reply #211 on: November 25, 2009, 08:42:19 am »
That woman is silly.

Feeling 'disgusted' by sex is hardly a 'natural' reaction, it's a trained reaction by society who deemed sex to be 'taboo' and 'disgusting', even more so if it is out of the 'norm'.

Also 'desirable sex just being an illusion due to chemicals in our brain' is a huge oxymoron.
EVERYTHING is an 'illusion due to chemicals in our brain' by that logic.
'Chocolate tasting sweet is just an illusion because of chemicals in your brain' durrr.

Who says reality itself isn't an illusion? Philosophers have been debating about that for centuries.
We're all in a matrix waiting to be saved by neo jesus anyway.
...
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Oh my god brion please tell me this is not about to turn into a 'matrix' storyline.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2009, 08:54:39 am by 9_6 »

Hans

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Re: Chapter 23: Discussion
« Reply #212 on: November 25, 2009, 09:23:29 am »
This Morgana woman really has some very strange ideas. She probably did not look very far above the horizon of her own culture?

CrystalDragonSpaceMarine

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Re: Chapter 23: Discussion
« Reply #213 on: November 25, 2009, 10:59:33 am »
I agree with Fata Morgana. Sex is totally disgusting.
It's only when you find something attractive or arousing that makes sex desirable.
Most biological things are disgusting. Take eating for example. All that chewing and saliva. Gross. But people still do it because of the urge of hunger.

UmberIsSexy

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Re: Chapter 23: Discussion
« Reply #214 on: November 25, 2009, 11:51:20 am »
I think the last sentence of that page is intriguing.

Sex is frking weird, at the least, and certainly arguably disgusting.  I kinda like the way she's looking at it.

I don't even care how hot the person is, it's still weird to put yourself inside someone else or have someone stick some part of themself in you.  Mentally, at least.  Of course, the way to enjoy it is to not examine it mentally...

but still, both penises and vaginas are weird and most definitely arguably gross.  The combination of the two?  Just nasty!!

Now leopard slug sex on the other hand?  A beautiful thing.  Not gross at all.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2009, 12:52:32 pm by UmberIsSexy »

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Re: Chapter 23: Discussion
« Reply #215 on: November 25, 2009, 12:02:33 pm »
Now leopard slug sex on the other hand?  A beautiful thing.  Not gross at all.
That's.....that's just wrong.
How could something like that arouse me?
I have a boner...*plays a song*

charles

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Re: Chapter 23: Discussion
« Reply #216 on: November 25, 2009, 05:54:57 pm »
The thing that is most noticeable to me is the fact the comic cuts out at the midpoint of her sentence. She may be flagrantly comparing homosexuality to raping chickens and young children, but it is impossible to disagree with her without hearing her complete thought.

But... well... sodomy is not the same as pedophilia. Just sayin'.

But in the same light, raping chickens is not the same as raping young children and Necrophilia is not the same as incest.  But Fata isn't trying to compare them directly with each other.  She's saying that they share a common perception from society, broadly, that deems them as gross.  It might be better if you bullet point it.

Society generally deems Homosexuality as gross/disgusting/undesirable.
Society generally deems Incest as gross/disgusting/undesirable.
Society generally deems Pedophilia as gross/disgusting/undesirable.
Society generally deems Sex with old people as gross/disgusting/undesirable.
Society generally deems Homosexuality as gross/disgusting/undesirable.

She also didn't mention anything about rape.  She just called it pedophilia (actually I'm not sure if she mentioned bestiality either).  Sure a pedophile could rape by having sex with a child without the child's consent or against their will, but if it's consensual then the general belief/perception by people is that the child is not mature enough, or is too easily manipulated by an older person, to grant consent (much like they aren't considered mature enough to sign a contract without an adult guardian's supervision, or mature enough to enter into marriage).

Fata then goes on to make her point that each of us categorizes various different sexual activities into desirable or undesirable but that desirable sex is an illusion created by the chemicals in our brain.  Heck, a straight pedophile may well find homosexuality disgusting.

I'm trying to work out what Fata's game is here.  Maytag knows she's playing mindfuck games here so she's well aware that there's probably an ulterior motive behind what Fata's saying besides simply sharing her opinions and beliefs.  She knows Moss is involved somewhere and she has no idea what happened to the others.  One minute she's enjoying a bath with Bern, next she's escaping with Bern and suddenly she wakes up to this mindfuck game.

NOTE!: Bern is a lesbian and thus, should find straight sex undesirable, but the enchanted bath seemed to allow or cause her to find straight sex desirable.  You could also argue that she's all for monogamy and probably against group sex but the enchantment allowed or caused her to shed all that.

************

The one interesting thing that occurs to me here is possession.  How does a possession work?  We know that the potion is created using some of the possessor's spirit essence, but when they take over someone is it just sort of transmitting that person's brain signals over to the recipient, or is that person's "being"/"essence"/"self" now in the brain of the possessed and experiencing all the chemical signals of their brain?

Heck, if Maytag had fed Bloody Mary some of her potion of possession and taken her over, would she have come under the effect of her permanent bloodlust? (Actually, why didn't Maytag use that to get out of there?  Make the bottle appear on the end of her arm just as BM is coming in for a bite, or even pull it out and put it on the end and call is seasoning. Take over BM and away you go.  I can only guess that some level of consent may be required for the potion to work *shrug*).
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Re: Chapter 23: Discussion
« Reply #217 on: November 26, 2009, 08:50:21 am »
I think the direction Fata Morgana is (consciously or not) going in is that humans find others having sex to be unattractive and only find sex attractive when they have a shot at participating and there's a possibility of it resulting in successful reproduction.
Why?
Well, because like all other animals it is our instinct to replicate our own genes at the expense of everyone else's. Thus it makes sense to have a primal urge to stop all sex that doesn't help you replicate your genes.

The world of sexual reproduction is fierce and unforgiving. Why Fata Morgana is going in this direction, I have yet to figure out.
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Re: Chapter 23: Discussion
« Reply #218 on: November 26, 2009, 12:14:44 pm »
I agree that Fata's argument is interesting, but I don't completely agree with the argument itself.  It probably applies to most people, but not all people, and is therefore somewhat of a generalization.  Personally, I'm opposed to bestiality, incest and pedophilia, and find them to be disgusting, but while the other forms of sex don't appeal to me, I wouldn't outright say that they are disgusting.  Mostly, that's because I don't feel that it is my place to judge what is morally right or wrong, provided that the sex is between two consenting human adults.  Fata didn't bring up polygamy, but the only reason that polygamy is wrong and illegal is because of religious reasons.  Of course, there are ways around that, since polyamory and group sex are not illegal, so anyone can have an open marriage if they so choose.  As for the sex act itself, it's not always an appealing sight, especially if the participants are not attractive to the viewer (who may or may not also be a participant).  Finally, as for what Fata's goal is, it's too early to tell.  My best guess is that since she can't use Maytag's sexual appetite against her, she's trying to eliminate that sexual appetite, and then somehow use that against her.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2009, 08:56:25 am by Kanazaka »

Tyris

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Re: Chapter 23: Discussion
« Reply #219 on: November 26, 2009, 12:56:33 pm »
Fata has arrived at the correct conclusion by taking two wrong turns.
You can't look dignified when you're having fun.

parameciumkid

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Re: Chapter 23: Discussion
« Reply #220 on: November 26, 2009, 04:48:21 pm »
As they say, two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do.
Hi.
I've been out for two years, so warn me if I act like I missed something obvious. ^^;

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charles

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Re: Chapter 23: Discussion
« Reply #221 on: November 26, 2009, 07:49:45 pm »
Yeah, Fata made the comment that her little stunt was never going to work, so then she's left wondering just HOW promiscuity is Maytag's weakness (hell, I'd wager that Maytag could resist/stop, even if they'd woken her up in the enchanted bath).

Essentially all their tests seem to revolve around finding out if someone is in control of their body, or if their body is in control of them.  So if we presume that Fata is explaining something and not trying to provoke Maytag, then what she's potentially explaining is that sexual desire is caused by our body and thus, following our sexual desires is giving into our body's desires rather than following our own.  Heck, all the spells that adjust people's personalities (such as bloodlust and aphrodisiac) could possibly be spells that actually affect the body's chemical responses and balance.  By resisting the enchantment, Maytag showed that even with her body's chemical messages for sex in overdrive, she was able to ignore it and control her body rather than let it control her.

So for some reason, they're after a person who can resist those chemical messages from the body.  For instance, Maytag breaking down after she tried to save Bern from Derriks', is an example of her giving into her body's chemical messages to panic and loose ration.  But (as she herself said at the time) Maytag then purged herself of those emotions and became nothing more than a force of cold calculation with a single goal in mind to save Bern from Derriks' torture by killing her or taking on the suffering.

...Actually... That makes me wonder about the Xibulba collar... We saw the effect it had on Maytag in the intermission where she basically gave completely into her promiscuity.  So the particular characteristic it enhances, appears to be associated with the person's weakness, causing them to loose all self control over what is presumably a desire created by their body's chemical system which was already wired or chemically overbalanced, slightly or greatly, in the direction of the perceived weakness.

Just an interesting note that magick in Flipside appears to be strong associated with a person's brain, or being and that many of the enchantments that we've seen have made some significant adjustment to the desires created by the body.
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Re: Chapter 23: Discussion
« Reply #222 on: November 27, 2009, 02:27:47 am »
How the hell is promiscuity even a weakness anyway?
If anything, being extremely uptight about sexuality is a weakness and not the opposite.

charles

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Re: Chapter 23: Discussion
« Reply #223 on: November 27, 2009, 03:24:17 am »
Well... Thats sort of what Fata Morgana is now asking herself.  She's worked out that the whole orgy offer was never going to work, so she's now asking the question "HOW is promiscuity Maytag's weakness".

But seriously promiscuity CAN be a weakness.  Heck, there are serious sex addicts out there and I've even worked with one.  The poor girl was simply obsessed and addicted to sex to such an extent that it was a detrement to the rest of her life.  She would be arranging to have sex during her lunch hour and even during work hours, in online adult chat sites.  In essence, sex controlled her life and thats the case for some individuals out there.

Certainly I believe people can be promiscuous to an extent and it not be a worry on the rest of their life (in fact it can be a good and happy thing in their life) but its an addiction when you feel helpless to control the desires when you feel you need to in order to achieve other goals and dreams.  Essentially, its a problem when it's an obsession.

The point that I think Fata Morgana is making now is that everybody's DEFAULT reaction to sex is disgust and then we make exceptions to certain kinds/categories of sexual activity.  Sort of like a firewall on a computer which, by default, blocks all traffic except that which is permitted or desired.  But in Maytag's case, it could be said that her firewall is set to "Allow all".  In other words, unlike everybody else, her DEFAULT reaction to sex is always "desire".
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charles

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Re: Chapter 23: Discussion
« Reply #224 on: November 30, 2009, 09:22:59 am »
This is the part where Maytag turns it around and gets Fata Morgan fired up *PMSL*
CLAN OF THE CATS IS MAKING A COMEBACK! JUNE 8th.  BE THERE!

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Re: Chapter 23: Discussion
« Reply #225 on: November 30, 2009, 11:11:10 am »
Fata's take is interesting, but based on my observations and experiences I don't agree with it. As human beings, our natural tendency on a base level is to desire food and sex.

Also, the "ever notice how children are disgusted by the idea of sex until they hit puberty" is something I don't agree with at all. Maybe I was just a weird kid, but I was very interested in kissing and touching other girls for as long as I can remember. Not to mention, how many kids play "doctor?" :P

CrystalDragonSpaceMarine

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Re: Chapter 23: Discussion
« Reply #226 on: November 30, 2009, 11:50:24 am »
How the hell is promiscuity even a weakness anyway?
If anything, being extremely uptight about sexuality is a weakness and not the opposite.

I'd ask the opposite. Being promiscuous is weakness because you are easily tempted into sex.
Someone who is uptight would not have this weakness (though they may have another).

Maytag has strong enough willpower to resist the temptation, obviously.

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Re: Chapter 23: Discussion
« Reply #227 on: November 30, 2009, 01:10:30 pm »
Well, anyone has the power to resist the chemical signals of the body. Pain, pleasure...emotions. Mind over body, it's better to think about things clearly and make rational choices from that place. Some people choose to let their bodies control them, because it's easier or whatever, but it's still a choice anyone has the power to make.

CrystalDragonSpaceMarine

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Re: Chapter 23: Discussion
« Reply #228 on: November 30, 2009, 01:16:06 pm »
Well, anyone has the power to resist the chemical signals of the body. Pain, pleasure...emotions. Mind over body, it's better to think about things clearly and make rational choices from that place. Some people choose to let their bodies control them, because it's easier or whatever, but it's still a choice anyone has the power to make.

Here's a question: Is "resistance" just another chemical signal?

It may not be quite as obvious as, say, a pain reaction or a sex drive, but what if you have drives for something else?
Maytag is pretty solidly now resisting her urges to have sex (to the point it doesn't seem like she even has them anymore...she was pretty cold with Fata just now, though I'm thinking she was generally weirded out enough that she wouldn't have gone through with it even if it was without Bern being a problem).
But isn't what she feels also a chemical reaction towards Bern, which has a stronger impulse in her mind then free promiscuous sex.

I've always wondered that. People say you can resist your emotions, but isn't that itself its own impulse? Can you "resist" the resistance? I know lots of people (read: me) that lock up their emotions and have trouble feeling them at all.

Sex, hunger, emotion, they are all chemical signals. But the fact that one can become aware of this, consider it, and try to reject those impulse is also the result of chemical reaction, as all though is, is it not?

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Re: Chapter 23: Discussion
« Reply #229 on: November 30, 2009, 01:27:48 pm »
Well, it's more the result of electrical signals racing through your brain, and not chemical signals. You could say the entire process was natural, even the thoughts you are thinking now. Devices now exist in the analog that control the input/output of various neural tasks, such as vision, though they are crude. But that line of thought is fruitless. It is still your thinking that's in control, which you control... and not chemicals.

I'm a very unemotional person, but I like being that way. Having an off switch for your emotions isn't exactly healthy, but thinking rationally > living off of emotion.

CrystalDragonSpaceMarine

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Re: Chapter 23: Discussion
« Reply #230 on: November 30, 2009, 01:32:49 pm »
Well, it's more the result of electrical signals racing through your brain, and not chemical signals. You could say the entire process was natural, even the thoughts you are thinking now. Devices now exist in the analog that control the input/output of various neural tasks, such as vision, though they are crude. But that line of thought is fruitless. It is still your thinking that's in control, which you control... and not chemicals.

I'm a very unemotional person, but I like being that way. Having an off switch for your emotions isn't exactly healthy, but thinking rationally > living off of emotion.

Well, yeah, electricity and stuff. I'm not as up and up on exactly how the nervous system works as I should.
But the point is do you really control your thoughts?

Maybe you are thinking about something. Maybe you have an image in your head. You know the type. You probably saw it on the internet.
But you are thinking about it, because you saw it, and the image is in your mind's eye. You want to remove it, so you concentrate, and get it off your mind.
You did this out of your willpower, but you would not have done it had you not had the impulse to do so.

Or if you decide to not have a dozen donuts for breakfast? You do so because your have an impulse to take care of your health. Your action is your "choice", but your reason for it is not. You didn't "decide" to value your health, you just did.
So which is it? Did you choose to follow your desire for health? Or was that drive merely stronger than your gluttony?

?

9_6

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Re: Chapter 23: Discussion
« Reply #231 on: November 30, 2009, 02:08:28 pm »
That woman just spews out more sillyness.

People wear clothes because they've seen other people wear clothes for their entire life, thus it is 'normal'. It is obviously trained by society.
It doesn't even require much science to find that out, a working brain does too.
There are different societies where everyone runs around naked all day, I don't think they view the human body as 'disgusting' and clothes might appear 'disgusting' to them.
Or at least weird. 'Unnormal'.

Furthermore, children are disgusted by sex because they have probably never been confronted with it before.
It's new, it is scary and mommy/daddy has probably told them how dirty their sexual organs are and that they should be ashamed of them, should hide them etc.

It is all deeply rooted in society.
A messed up society where violence is viewed as less disgusting than making love.

Also the next thing may will say is 'But I don't agree with it.'.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2009, 02:12:44 pm by 9_6 »

CrystalDragonSpaceMarine

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Re: Chapter 23: Discussion
« Reply #232 on: November 30, 2009, 02:16:15 pm »
Really don't like people that have different ideas from you, eh 9_6?

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Re: Chapter 23: Discussion
« Reply #233 on: November 30, 2009, 02:17:18 pm »
Really don't like people that have different ideas from you, eh 9_6?
Am I wrong?

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Re: Chapter 23: Discussion
« Reply #234 on: November 30, 2009, 02:20:08 pm »
Really don't like people that have different ideas from you, eh 9_6?
Am I wrong?

Your whole argument is basically "it's just society".

But why would society develop those norms if there wasn't some natural impulse towards them?

I'm not saying you're right or wrong, but her philosophy might have more merit to it than you think.

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Re: Chapter 23: Discussion
« Reply #235 on: November 30, 2009, 02:23:13 pm »
I wear clothes because its cold up here in "Sunny" Scotland now and they keep me warm.............plus I would get arrested for indecent exposure by the police.
What good is dreaming it if you don't actually do it?.

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Re: Chapter 23: Discussion
« Reply #236 on: November 30, 2009, 02:37:15 pm »
Your whole argument is basically "it's just society".

But why would society develop those norms if there wasn't some natural impulse towards them?

I'm not saying you're right or wrong, but her philosophy might have more merit to it than you think.
I don't know how society developed it. I didn't study that kind of stuff.
Maybe at some point, people covered themselves in the pelt of animals, thus clothing was born.
Then, someone somehow got the idea to declare sex as 'disgusting', for some reason that idea spread (religion?) and even to this day, has a very tight grip on society.

My point is that I doubt that being disgusted by something as natural as sex is a 'natural' reaction at all.
Using that as a basis for argumentation just seems wrong to me.

Being disgusted by necrophilia, zoophilia etc. might be natural since you can get serious diseases from that (and being disgusted by stuff that can make you sick is natural. If something tastes funny, you spit it out. If it smells odd, you don't eat it) but extrapolating that to the general statement 'sex=disgusting=natural' does not compute for me.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2009, 02:43:21 pm by 9_6 »

CrystalDragonSpaceMarine

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Re: Chapter 23: Discussion
« Reply #237 on: November 30, 2009, 02:41:54 pm »
I don't know how society developed it or anything.
Maybe at some point, people covered themselves in the pelt of animals, thus clothing was born.
Then, someone somehow got the idea to declare sex as 'disgusting', for some reason that idea spread (religion?) and even to this day, has a very tight grip on the society.

My point is that I doubt that being disgusted by something as natural as sex is a 'natural' reaction at all.

People are disgusted by a lot of 'natural' things. Other bodily functions, such as waste. Bugs. Etc. It wouldn't arise if there weren't some natural inclination towards it. And you can't blame religion, especially if you believe religion was created by humans, because in order for people to be indoctrinated with religious ideas from birth, a group of people would have had to felt that way themselves and instituted them as religion.

Now, obviously not everyone has the same 'nature', and some people resist society and have different values concerning this.

But it's definitely not enough for you to dogmatically condemn the idea as "silly".

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Re: Chapter 23: Discussion
« Reply #238 on: November 30, 2009, 02:48:10 pm »
I didn't say 'disgust' wasn't a natural reaction though. It's there but it has to be 'trained'.
Did you know babys aren't by default disgusted by excrements? They'll even freaking taste it out of curiosity.

And bugs... =P it has been found out that people who are afraid of spiders have parents who also are afraid of spiders.
So if a baby sees a spider, tries to touch it and mommy goes all 'aaaaaaah', it'll connect spiders to something negative and will probably be disgusted/scared by them later.
On the contrary some tribes eat spiders and the chinese eat all possible and impossible kinds of bugs so being disgusted by them is totally trained.

But anyway, since socializing most definitely is 'natural' for humans, maybe society itself is 'natural', thus being disgusted by sex would be 'natural'.
It's all on pretty shaky legs with words extremely open for interpretation.
However we see ms morgana clearly viewing society as something 'unnatural' in panel 1 of the new page, so...
« Last Edit: November 30, 2009, 02:57:52 pm by 9_6 »

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Re: Chapter 23: Discussion
« Reply #239 on: November 30, 2009, 02:56:53 pm »
Quote
I didn't say 'disgust' wasn't a natural reaction though. It's there but it has to be 'trained'.
Did you know babys aren't by default disgusted by excrements? They'll even freaking taste it out of curiosity.

But where does the training come from? Parents? Where'd they get it from? Grandparents? The chain can't go on forever.
Even if it's trained, people wouldn't follow it if they weren't naturally inclined to do so. Some people aren't so inclined, so they rebel against what they've been taught.

Quote
And bugs... =P it's has been found out that people who are afraid of spiders have parents who also are afraid of spiders.
So if a baby sees a spider, tries to touch it and mommy goes all 'aaaaaaah', it'll connect spiders to something negative and will probably be disgusted/scared by them later.

I highly doubt that is universal or even widespread. How do you account for all the people disgusted by things that their parents are okay with?

Quote
Also some tribes eat spiders and the chinese eat all possible and impossible kinds of bugs so being disgusted by them is trained.

Or maybe some tribes guys was desperate, had to eat some disgusting bugs because there was nothing else, realized it wasn't that bad, and so started feeding to their kids. In that case, not being disgusted by them is trained. There's really no way to know.

Quote
But anyway, since socializing most definitely is 'natural' for humans, maybe society itself is 'natural', thus being disgusted by sex would be 'natural'.
It's all on pretty shaky legs with words extremely open for interpretation.
However we see ms morgana clearly viewing society as something 'unnatural' in panel 1 of the new page, so...

No, she's just disagreeing with May that society is the only thing influencing people on this matter.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2009, 03:04:28 pm by CrystalDragonSpaceMarine »