Chapter 23: Discussion

[9_6]

My point is that I doubt that being disgusted by something as natural as sex is a 'natural' reaction at all.

I didn't say 'disgust' wasn't a natural reaction though.

You pretty much did.

No. There's a fine difference imo.
Disgust itself is a natural reaction. It's an emotion.

In the same post, however, I said that 'disgust' can be trained.
If it's trained, it's not there by default and thus not natural, agreed?
If children would be confronted with sex from the beginning without their parents or anyone else in their surroundings showing any sign of shame whatsoever, they would not be disgusted by sex.

Although, to complete the circle, you could say 'society' would be responsible for that again but you get my point?
This is why I think that point is silly. There's almost nothing truly 'natural' about us anymore if you distinct between 'society' and 'nature' and her whole point is based on differing between those.

I highly doubt that is universal or even widespread. How do you account for all the people disgusted by things that their parents are okay with?

Bad experience.

But where does the training come from? Parents? Where'd they get it from? Grandparents? The chain can't go on forever.
Even if it's trained, people wouldn't follow it if they weren't naturally inclined to do so. Some people aren't so inclined, so they rebel against what they've been taught.

Experience.
People got bitten by a spider, it hurt or they even saw someone die from it, they'll be scared of them.
Then they'll 'teach' their children to be scared of them etc.

Or maybe some tribes guys was desperate, had to eat some disgusting bugs because there was nothing else, realized it wasn't that bad, and so started feeding to their kids. In that case, not being disgusted by them is trained. There's really no way to know.

We're omnivores so it is never truly 'unnatural' for us to eat anything now, is it?
We can literally eat everything.

No, she's just disagreeing with May that society is the only thing influencing people on this matter.

She clearly differs between 'nature' and 'society'.
If society was ='natural' to her, what exactly would her point be anyway?

I think a good question would be, what is 'natural'?

Edit: Cleaned the quote clusterf*ck up and addressed the rest of your points.

[parameciumkid]

Maytag's definitely just playing along in this scene.

[CrystalDragonSpaceMarine]

-snip-

Fair enough.

We're omnivores so it is never truly 'unnatural' for us to eat anything now, is it?
We can literally eat everything.

Rocks? 

I think a good question would be, what is 'natural'?

Beats me. D&D-style druids say "nature" is trees and ducks and stuff. "Unnatural" is humans building houses and cities.
Of course, birds building nest is "natural".
So, it seems like "natural" is not man-made, "unnatural" is man-made, regardless of whether or not it is in the nature of man to do things like build houses and found cities and make machines.

[wodan46]

Here's how I see it:

I'd say most attitudes about sex are probably due first to natural selection, and then upon the development of civilization, what could be called societal selection.  Unfortunately, evolution and society have tremendous conflict over sex.

Sex is intrinsically associated both with base biological urges (relevant mainly to evolution) AND upper psychological needs (relevant mainly to society).

Also, due to the complexity of society and education, in the US, people aren't considered fully adults until they are 21-22 (alcohol access, completion of college).  However, puberty is 9-17 for Girls, 10-19 for Boys.  In short, we've reached the point that society's standards for adulthood have completely out-stripped biological adulthood.

End result is sex ends up being stuck in a giant tug of war.  Society demands that it have consent, evolution demands that it be productive, society demands that it be used only in committed relationships (good for stability), while evolution demands that it be done whenever possible (good for spreading genes).

[Brion Foulke]

Well, yeah, electricity and stuff. I'm not as up and up on exactly how the nervous system works as I should.
But the point is do you really control your thoughts?

Maybe you are thinking about something. Maybe you have an image in your head. You know the type. You probably saw it on the internet.
But you are thinking about it, because you saw it, and the image is in your mind's eye. You want to remove it, so you concentrate, and get it off your mind.
You did this out of your willpower, but you would not have done it had you not had the impulse to do so.

Or if you decide to not have a dozen donuts for breakfast? You do so because your have an impulse to take care of your health. Your action is your "choice", but your reason for it is not. You didn't "decide" to value your health, you just did.
So which is it? Did you choose to follow your desire for health? Or was that drive merely stronger than your gluttony?

?

Seems like you've had a revelation about something!  The questions you're asking are part of the whole "do we have free will" debate, which is pretty cool.  The end result of this argument usually ends up like this: "Ok, so free will is probably an illusion.  But the illusion is impossible to tell from reality, so it may as well be reality."  So basically, while we may not have free will in the true sense, what we have is close enough.

[wodan46]

Correct.  Free will doesn't exist from a physical standpoint, for the world is either quantum randomness or mathematically predictably at heart.  But for the purposes of conducting society and life, its far more practical to act as if it did.

So yes, Sociology is powered by Psychology is powered by Biology is powered by Chemistry is powered by Physics is powered by Math, but you still hold people accountable for their decisions, even though they inherently couldn't have chosen anything else.

[CrystalDragonSpaceMarine]

Seems like you've had a revelation about something!  The questions you're asking are part of the whole "do we have free will" debate, which is pretty cool.  The end result of this argument usually ends up like this: "Ok, so free will is probably an illusion.  But the illusion is impossible to tell from reality, so it may as well be reality."  So basically, while we may not have free will in the true sense, what we have is close enough.

Well, it's long been my belief on fate/free will. It's possible to reduce the concept down to the point where it becomes meaningless. Most fatalists would say, "what will happen will happen and you can't influence it", though if you say, "yes, you can influence it", but what if you were fated to influence it? And so on and so forth around in a circle.

but you still hold people accountable for their decisions, even though they inherently couldn't have chosen anything else.

Of course, it could always be argued that one doesn't have a choice on whether or not to hold people accountable for their actions.
Works both ways!

[9_6]

We're omnivores so it is never truly 'unnatural' for us to eat anything now, is it?
We can literally eat everything.

Rocks? 

Do grinded ones count? 

Beats me. D&D-style druids say "nature" is trees and ducks and stuff. "Unnatural" is humans building houses and cities.

So almost everything that defines humans is unnatural?
Is there no way for an animal to be 'unnatural' whatsoever?

[Brion Foulke]

Well, it's long been my belief on fate/free will. It's possible to reduce the concept down to the point where it becomes meaningless. Most fatalists would say, "what will happen will happen and you can't influence it", though if you say, "yes, you can influence it", but what if you were fated to influence it? And so on and so forth around in a circle.

I honestly don't think anyone believes in fate anymore.  It's passe.

Of course, it could always be argued that one doesn't have a choice on whether or not to hold people accountable for their actions.
Works both ways!

Yeah, we kind of get that.  I think you're missing the part where we say it's just more practical to act as if people have free will, even if they don't.  The illusion of free will is just as good as the real thing.  Sure, when you decide whether to go to Taco Bell or Dairy Queen, this decision is based on all the motivations in your brain which you have no control over, so maybe it wasn't really a choice, but as far as you're concerned it feels like a choice, right?  So if you look at it another way, maybe the ability to just go along with your brain and go get some delicious Taco Bell is a good enough "choice."  At some point you just have to live your life and stop worrying about all this stuff.

[9_6]

At some point you just have to live your life and stop worrying about all this stuff.

Damn right.
After all you're all just products of MY mind.

[CrystalDragonSpaceMarine]

Do grinded ones count? 

Grinding your rocks to make them more manageable is unnatural.

I honestly don't think anyone believes in fate anymore.  It's passe.

Hey, some people still believe in flat earth.  

Yeah, we kind of get that.  I think you're missing the part where we say it's just more practical to act as if people have free will, even if they don't.  The illusion of free will is just as good as the real thing.  Sure, when you decide whether to go to Taco Bell or Dairy Queen, this decision is based on all the motivations in your brain which you have no control over, so maybe it wasn't really a choice, but as far as you're concerned it feels like a choice, right?  So if you look at it another way, maybe the ability to just go along with your brain and go get some delicious Taco Bell is a good enough "choice."  At some point you just have to live your life and stop worrying about all this stuff.

Yeah.
I probably shouldn't have brought it up, since it is pretty pointless.
Who cares why something makes you happy as long as something makes you happy?

After all you're all just products of MY mind.

I'm more of a quotient, really. Because I'm all about division.

[Brion Foulke]

Yeah.
I probably shouldn't have brought it up, since it is pretty pointless.
Who cares why something makes you happy as long as something makes you happy?

That's cool, if you want to talk about it more, bring it up in the debate section.  Although I guess we've pretty much said what there is to say, right?

[9_6]

Do grinded ones count? 

Grinding your rocks to make them more manageable is unnatural.

Hmm so is using tools unnatural then? Some apes use sticks as tools.
Do they act unnatural if they do it?
Does this topic actually lead anywhere?

We will never know.

Hm why hasn't any of those super ultra high level sorcerers grown may a new arm by the way?
Or will she stay one armed for the rest of her life now?
Cause that would mean things like wounds would actually matter.

[CrystalDragonSpaceMarine]

Yeah.
I probably shouldn't have brought it up, since it is pretty pointless.
Who cares why something makes you happy as long as something makes you happy?

That's cool, if you want to talk about it more, bring it up in the debate section.  Although I guess we've pretty much said what there is to say, right?
[/quote]

Yeah. I only brought it followed up on our whole natural/unnatural discussion.

Generally I wouldn't spoil a good discussion about a comic with serious debate stuff, but dammit, you have a scene that's more than boobs and wizards and swords and stuff, it's gonna come up.  

Hmm so is using tools unnatural then? Some apes use sticks as tools.
Do they act unnatural if they do it?
Does this topic actually lead anywhere?

We will never know.

Hm why hasn't any of those super ultra high level sorcerers grown may a new arm by the way?
Or will she stay one armed for the rest of her life now?

They probably haven't had time.

[wodan46]

I honestly don't think anyone believes in fate anymore.  It's passe.

Fate is basically anthropomorphizing the lack of free will.  Free will may be lacked, but that doesn't make fate useful conceptually.

[ArneBab]

In the same post, however, I said that 'disgust' can be trained.
If it's trained, it's not there by default and thus not natural, agreed?
If children would be confronted with sex from the beginning without their parents or anyone else in their surroundings showing any sign of shame whatsoever, they would not be disgusted by sex.

I think you might muddle up "sex" with "sticking something big in" here.

Children play "doctor" from early on, and they happily explore their own bodies. But the thought of "I came from there" (that stretches that far) and "they stick that big thing in" could be something completely different - though I'm not sure about that.

Sex isn't just the penetration part (Maytag will know that ), and I think that if you break it down to the things people actually do (kissing, caressing, ...) most people will have some point from which on they find it disgusting. But since that point is different for people depending on the society they come from (one country can have many societies living side by side) that's clearly where morals come in.

I can imagine that "I bleed down there" and "why does that thing have to stand erect right now, when I'm in front of class and everyone is watching" can create a good deal of additional shame for ones own body (which then gets projected onto others), but that's completely different from a "natural reaction to sex".

[charles]

Screw fate, go Destiny all the way.

hmmm, I wonder if Maytag is about to come back with a response or if she's just going to let it fall and watch poor Morgana sit there puzzled at the lack of an argument *lol*

[akashayi]

To me it seems like May is at it again, making friends of her enemies.

[Oddball]

Nah May is luring her into a false sense of security before producing a throwing knife from her D bag.

[9_6]

You know if we still had the old, cool may this would definitely lead to hot lesbian sex but noooo...

[JewelOfSong]

To me it seems like May is at it again, making friends of her enemies.

I was thinking the same thing. I'm assuming these people want Maytag on their side if they really want her to enter "Dark Cell," so I don't think Fata would purposefully try to make an enemy of Maytag.

Although, I've always been curious to see what would happen if someone just refused to be anything but Maytag's enemy, especially in light of what it says about May in the notebook section (she's *not* the sort of person you want to have as an enemy, although surprisingly she has very few enemies). Eventually, everyone has come around, even Moss.

[charles]

hmmm, it makes me wonder...

We haven't seen Melter or had anything to confirm that these people are responsible for Bloody Mary, but if they are, I wonder if she was another candidate for Dark Cell rather than a mere experiment.  Could be that she was someone they tested, who made it that far in the process and was "transformed" to enter Dark Cell, but ended up being a failure.  But I doubt it.

Morgana doesn't seem to be so much as trying to recruit Maytag as she is still testing her suitability for the task at hand.  It all seems to be related to people managing to control their emotions and the body's chemical signals.  Whatever the case, she's obviously not a candidate herself, else they wouldn't be bothering, so I'm waiting for Maytag to either pass or to turn it around and take control of Morgana's emotions.

Actually, I'm still not exactly certain of what Maytag's goals might be.  She's knows she's been tested for her supposed weakness and that Moss is probably involved with the group.  They apparently need her for something called Dark Cell which she may already know something about from rumor (as she tends to) which gives her a leverage since they need something she from her.  But she also knows they're holding her in a room with bars on the window and probably Bern somewhere.  I'm half guessing that her strategy will either be to pass their test so she's useful to them, and thus has some leverage, or she's going to try and befriend them so even if she does fail, they'll still be uninclined to find her as a problem and possibly more of an ally.

[Rava]

Now, this was a bit of an unforeseen turn of events. But good that May is not that easily confused. 

[JewelOfSong]

lol, this Fata lady is ridiculous. Props to May for showing so much patience. I'd be rolling my eyes right now.

[9_6]

Bored of sex, huh?
I didn't know there was internet in the flipside world.

[akashayi]

The magus are all tapping into the wired. That explains so much. Phalanx.gov is getting haxxed all over the place.

[charles]

hmmmm,

Could be another tactic as well.  She's tried the direct seduction.  Then she's tried to provoke her with opinions.  Now she's coming across as someone unable to see the joy in sex or express much interest in it.

We know Maytag sometimes likes to start little projects on people.  Regina's shy love for Lucient and Crest's loss of composure around women.  Come across as someone who needs assistance and you could spark Maytag's interest in turning you into her next project and maybe get some pitty sex *LOL*

*meh*, Or part of Fata's disinterest is just something to do with the lack of anything below the waist ;P

[Foof]

Non chapter related, but let's have a round to celebrate.  Flipside's #3 on Top Web Comics!

And I just noticed today Fata has a nice rack.

[parameciumkid]

C'mon Fata, how can sex be boring for a girl like you?

[Foof]

Well, what if she's never had good sex?  Then she might find it boring, maybe?  (Aah I really wouldn't know, actually.  I'm still a virgin. XD)
I wonder why she's going into this lengthy discussion about how sex is disgusting, though.