Author Topic: Chapter 20: Discussion (Part 2)  (Read 96348 times)

Xshu

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Re: Chapter 20: Discussion (Part 2)
« Reply #300 on: April 04, 2009, 01:55:09 am »
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The point is, that it is extremely disrespectful to go tell someone who is (at the moment at least) dedicated to some lifestyle, and tell them "it is just a phase."
It's only disrespectful if they want to be dedicated. Telling a teenager that their depression is relatively normal for their age and that they'll grow out of it is not disrespectful, it's trying to give them hope. Likewise, May is trying to stop cheating, so telling her it was a phase should be perceived not as an attack on the person she believes herself to be, but as encouragement that she can become the person she's attempting to be.

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Why isn't nobody going around telling the ones that WANT children that "it's just a phase, you'll grow out of it and realize that children are no lovely little angels."
I don't mean to offend, but it's for the same reason nobody tells straight people they're going though a phase. It's just seen as normal, so nobody questions it. Wanting a family is the social norm of pretty much every place in the world. When someone (especially a young person, as young people are prone to rebellion) deviates from the norm in ways that have a "large minority" of people with the same views (no desire for children, no fondness for monogamy, ect), those who don't want to accept that this person is going to hold these views permanently instead choose to believe it's just a fad the person got caught up in. Often they are right, but just as often they're just thinking wishfully.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2009, 02:01:09 am by Xshu »

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Re: Chapter 20: Discussion (Part 2)
« Reply #301 on: April 04, 2009, 02:01:06 am »
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The point is, that it is extremely disrespectful to go tell someone who is (at the moment at least) dedicated to some lifestyle, and tell them "it is just a phase."
It's only disrespectful if they want to be dedicated. Telling a teenager that their depression is relatively normal for their age and that they'll grow out of it is not disrespectful, it's trying to give them hope. Likewise, May is trying to stop cheating, so telling her it was a phase should be perceived less as an attack on who she believes she is and more as encouragement that she can become who she's trying to be.

Except depression is not a lifestyle. It is a chemical inbalance in your brain.
Similarly I thought Maytag's sexual ways were her 'lifestyle,' her choice from the beginning, not... A chemical imbalance in her brain.

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Why isn't nobody going around telling the ones that WANT children that "it's just a phase, you'll grow out of it and realize that children are no lovely little angels."
I don't mean to offend, but it's for the same reason nobody tells straight people they're going though a phase. It's just seen as normal, so nobody questions it. Wanting a family is the social norm of pretty much every place in the world. When someone (especially a young person, as young people are prone to rebellion) deviates from the norm in ways that have a "large minority" of people with the same views (no desire for children, no fondness for monogamy, ect), those who don't want to accept that this person is going to hold these views permanently instead choose to believe it's just a fad they got caught up in. Often they are right, but just as often they're just thinking wishfully.

Indeed, and do you think that is right? Isn't that discrimination similar to racism? (They don't look normal! They have BROWN skin! So let's bash them!)
Nah, that's going a bit overboard, but you get my point. And when is someone old enough for something not to be a 'phase'? When can a person choose their lifestyle and have it respected, without narrow-minded people coming up and telling them 'it's a phase'?
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Re: Chapter 20: Discussion (Part 2)
« Reply #302 on: April 04, 2009, 02:56:54 am »
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Except depression is not a lifestyle. It is a chemical inbalance in your brain.
Similarly I thought Maytag's sexual ways were her 'lifestyle,' her choice from the beginning, not... A chemical imbalance in her brain.
Very well. How about smoking, then? She started doing it of her own free will, but now she wants to stop and doesn't know if she can. Many people have a smoking phase, and it's quite unpleasant to end. Of course, the difference between an addiction and a phase is whether it ends on its own or whether you have to force it to end, so it's not a perfect example. Still, as I said, May is attempting to stop, so Bern's words should be thought of as encouragement rather than patronization.

Alternate response: I don't think May is all there in the head, so the depression example works from that point of view. There is something not right about her, and whatever that is may be stabilizing as she ages.

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Indeed, and do you think that is right?
Do I think it's alright for me to question views people hold that are different from mine? Yes, of course I do. I think my views are the best in the world. If I didn't, I wouldn't have them. I would have the views I thought were better.  :P

So I want children and you don't. I think my desire for children is a good thing, and emotionally it confuses me that you don't want any. At some base level, I want you to want them just because I want them, and I want you to want the things I want. It makes me question my desire for children when people tell me they don't want any and, as you are all too familiar with, having one's goals questioned is annoying. I know intellectually that it's alright for you to have different goals, and I'm totally accepting of that, but I won't begrudge myself the freedom to question why your views on children are different from mine or whether you will continue to feel this way.

So, you know, there's how that mindset works.

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And when is someone old enough for something not to be a 'phase'? When can a person choose their lifestyle and have it respected, without narrow-minded people coming up and telling them 'it's a phase'?
Depends on the lifestyle choice. Yours? Probably not until your "biological clock stops ticking" as it were. It'll only get more and more intense until then, too. Especially around the end when people are saying you've got to hurry before you're up sperm creek without a uterus. XD
« Last Edit: April 04, 2009, 03:03:05 am by Xshu »

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Re: Chapter 20: Discussion (Part 2)
« Reply #303 on: April 04, 2009, 03:51:54 am »

Very well. How about smoking, then?

No, I don't get the smoking reference, since I was assuming Maytag didn't want to change her lifestyle. (I totally forgot about the bridge scene.) I'm mostly talking about lifestyles in general, and how annoying it is when people tell you it's a phase.

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Still, as I said, May is attempting to stop, so Bern's words should be thought of as encouragement rather than patronization.

All right then, but it's still not like smoking. >_>

I don't think there's anything wrong with May, I just find her a bit immature.


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So I want children and you don't. I think my desire for children is a good thing, and emotionally it confuses me that you don't want any. At some base level, I want you to want them just because I want them, and I want you to want the things I want.

But why the heck would you want me to want the things you want? Does it make your life richer if I have children? If yes, why?


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And when is someone old enough for something not to be a 'phase'? When can a person choose their lifestyle and have it respected, without narrow-minded people coming up and telling them 'it's a phase'?
Depends on the lifestyle choice. Yours? Probably not until your "biological clock stops ticking" as it were. It'll only get more and more intense until then, too. Especially around the end when people are saying you've got to hurry before you're up sperm creek without a uterus. XD

But that's just it. I'm not a biological machine steered by my urges. (If I were, I'd be tentackle-raping people all the time.) This "biological clock" everyone frets about is in conflict with my utter disgust for pregnancy, and dislike for children, as well as the fact that I have so many siblings and relatives that my genes -will- continue, whether or not I want them to. This is something I'm quite sure won't change, since it's been there for the 20 years that I've lived. Just because it's a socially accepted thing that everyone does/is supposed to do, it doesn't mean you can just change such a big part of yourself to fit into their expectations.

Also, this pregnancy-talk is very offtopic, so perhaps we should make a thread in the debate room to continue this...
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Re: Chapter 20: Discussion (Part 2)
« Reply #304 on: April 04, 2009, 04:03:31 pm »
Just claim infertility when someone asks and that'll end the conversation abruptly and awkwardly  ;D

See, people with children or who desire children think that you're just misguided.  That there's something they see in having and raising children that you don't see.  In that sense, they think they're helping you by trying to show or explain to you what you'd be missing out on, and you naturally get narky at having your views and opinions attacked like you're ignorant or there's something wrong with you.  In the reverse, if you attacked someone's desire to have children, explaining what they'd be missing out on and putting themselves through, they'd probably get narky too at their desires coming into question.

Granted, your desire to not have and raise children COULD be a phase.  But just as someone who plays football for a good many years, might go off the sport, there are others who will play, coach and watch it all their lives.
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Xshu

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Re: Chapter 20: Discussion (Part 2)
« Reply #305 on: April 04, 2009, 06:14:14 pm »
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All right then, but it's still not like smoking.
I believe Maytag to be a nymphomaniac. Nymphomania is a sexual addiction. So yes, it is like smoking in the sense that she started of her own free will, she doesn't know if she can stop, and she fears she will become bitter without the release it provides.

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But why the heck would you want me to want the things you want? Does it make your life richer if I have children?
It's not about what you having children means to me, it's about what your lack of desire for children means to me. If you don't want the things I want, it makes me question why you don't want those things, which makes me question why I do want them, which I don't like doing. There's more than one reason people fear the unknown. Of course, I fully respect your decision not to have children, I'm just telling you why people react the way they do toward it.

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This "biological clock" everyone frets about is in conflict with my utter disgust for pregnancy, and dislike for children, as well as the fact that I have so many siblings and relatives that my genes -will- continue, whether or not I want them to.
I think we're using different definitions of the term "biological clock". As I understand it, it's a metaphor for how long you have until you cannot get pregnant anymore. When it runs out (menopause), you're barren. It has nothing to do with an actual desire to have children, it's just about the option of whether or not you could have them. Most women have the metaphorical biological clock, regardless of whether they want children or not. Many of them, such as yourself, would be happy to have it run out ASAP just so they'll stop menstruating. Some undergo surgery for just that reason.

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Also, this pregnancy-talk is very offtopic, so perhaps we should make a thread in the debate room to continue this...
Uhh...yeah, maybe. I don't know, though, I'm pretty sure I've explained my point of view pretty clearly. I'm not telling you that you should have kids, I'm just explaining why people who want kids feel vaguely threatened by the reality that not everyone else does.

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Re: Chapter 20: Discussion (Part 2)
« Reply #306 on: April 05, 2009, 02:21:27 am »

It's not about what you having children means to me, it's about what your lack of desire for children means to me. If you don't want the things I want, it makes me question why you don't want those things, which makes me question why I do want them, which I don't like doing. There's more than one reason people fear the unknown.

But then that's because of your insecurity, not because of my different views.

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I think we're using different definitions of the term "biological clock".

Oh. I thought you meant this natural urge to breed that everyone's supposed to have.


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Uhh...yeah, maybe. I don't know, though, I'm pretty sure I've explained my point of view pretty clearly.

I'd have tons more to argue about, but sure, we'll end it here. Just don't tell me anything about phases or I will be angry panda.

Charles: Yes, I get that. I just don't understand why people constantly feel the need to 'convert' eachother, especially when it's about a harmless thing such as this. It's not like I'm a nazi or anything. And if they do think I'm so weird and feel threatened, isn't it just good that I don't breed? They'd have my genes and my upbringing, after all. I'd teach them all of my weirdness.
(Besides, I don't go around telling people what they're missing by having kids. I would have a lot to say, but I let them keep their baby-dreams. So why can't they let me have mine?)

EDIT: Edited out freudian slip.
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Re: Chapter 20: Discussion (Part 2)
« Reply #307 on: April 05, 2009, 11:56:50 am »
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All right then, but it's still not like smoking.
I believe Maytag to be a nymphomaniac. Nymphomania is a sexual addiction. So yes, it is like smoking in the sense that she started of her own free will, she doesn't know if she can stop, and she fears she will become bitter without the release it provides.


The word "nymphomania" origianlly ment "a female disease characterized by morbid and uncontrollable sexual desire."
Notice how the opritive terms here are female. and disease. Nowadays it just means excessive sexual desire on the part of a female, problably beucase the supposeded "phychological" term is now defunct. The point I am trying to make here is that the term is a relic of a more twisted time (the Victorian era 1775) when any female sexual desire was thought to be pathological, and a woman nearing the sex drive of a man was thought to have a desease.

I don't like the term becuase it's sexist and outmoded.
(Except perhaps cheeky way it is sometimes used by this comic. Maytag, it seems, uses the term as an affermation of her own sexual freedom.)

I don't think Maytag has any desease becuase of her hightened sexual nature and I resent the implication that a female with a high sex drive is somehow sick. She doesn't run around sleeping with anyone becuase she needs a "sex fix" dangerously spiralling out of control as she flops from partner to partner ignoring health and safety concerns; she has sex with people becuase she is attracted to them and believes the act of sex is a positive and life afferming act. Also the idea that "she couldn't stop if she wanted to." is from you, not the comic. Maytag belives sexual exploration is part of her nature and seeks to cultivate her sexaulity becuase she believes that sex is good for it's own sake and being a sexaul person is part of being a good person. She doesn't want to stop becuase she likes the person she has become while sexually exploring and is afraid that if she stops exploring she'll change back. Not beucase she's an addict and can't help herself. She likes pleasure and likes to give others pleasure becuase she believes it is a good thing to do. I see nothing pathological about that.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2009, 12:13:55 pm by RoninAngel »
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Xshu

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Re: Chapter 20: Discussion (Part 2)
« Reply #308 on: April 05, 2009, 02:16:22 pm »
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But then that's because of your insecurity, not because of my different views.
Yup. That's pretty much what I've been saying. People are bothered by your choice of lifestyle because it makes them insecure. At least that's my guess.

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Nowadays it just means excessive sexual desire on the part of a female, problably beucase the supposeded "phychological" term is now defunct.
Not according to the mental health section of the ICD-10. The word for sexual addiction is still nymphomania. I prefer the ICD-10 to the DSM-IV, so that's the word I'm going to use. Sorry if it makes you uncomfortable.

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I don't think Maytag has any desease becuase of her hightened sexual nature and I resent the implication that a female with a high sex drive is somehow sick.
I didn't say being a slut was a sickness, I said I believed Maytag to be a nymphomaniac.

Also: you "resent"? Do you remember what happened last time you got emotional? Brion had to come tell us to shut up. I'm sure you're passionate about this, but really, try to keep it cool.

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Also the idea that "she couldn't stop if she wanted to." is from you, not the comic.
I never said she couldn't stop if she wanted to. I specifically said on the last page that "even May says she could change when she's talking to Crest". But the fact remains that she's also trying to stop having sex, and if she has to try then that means she has trouble letting go, which means it's an addiction. The facts:

1. She's so stuck on promiscuous sex that she describes the act of being monogamous as "cutting off a piece of herself".

2. She's so addicted to sex that she went behind Bern's back for years to cheat on her, even though it made her feel guilty to do so.

3. Moss is able to pick out people's weaknesses by looking at them, and for Maytag he sees the fact that she's promiscuous. She might be comfortable hearing it, but the fact remains that Moss' curse showed it to him, which means it is a weakness. A heightened sexual drive is not a weakness, but an addiction is.

4. Brion has used the word nymphomaniac a number of times to describe Maytag. You assume it was tongue-in-cheek, but I do not.

5. As I said before, Maytag fears she will grow to resent Bern if she tries to stop. Irritability is one of the most constant signs of withdrawals.

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Maytag belives
Yeah, I'm sure she does. Rarely do addicts believe they're addicts. Especially young ones. "I could quit any time I want" and all that jazz. There's a reason the first step to quitting is admitting you have a problem in the first place, after all. May can come up with all the fancy ways to describe her addiction she wants, but they all sound like excuses to me.

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I see nothing pathological about that.
Well, I'm fairly certain you're wrong, but feel free to believe whatever you like.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2009, 02:21:44 pm by Xshu »

Brion Foulke

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Re: Chapter 20: Discussion (Part 2)
« Reply #309 on: April 05, 2009, 02:21:21 pm »
4. Brion has used the word nymphomaniac a number of times to describe Maytag. You assume it was tongue-in-cheek, but I do not.

I just think it's a fun sounding word, so yeah it is meant to be tongue-in-cheek.  I wouldn't read too much into my choice of that word.

Xshu

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Re: Chapter 20: Discussion (Part 2)
« Reply #310 on: April 05, 2009, 02:22:45 pm »
Fair enough. Are you confirming that Maytag does not have a sexual addiction, or just that you didn't use it for that purpose?

Edit: Just let me know if I'm talking too much.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2009, 02:31:32 pm by Xshu »

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Re: Chapter 20: Discussion (Part 2)
« Reply #311 on: April 05, 2009, 02:32:46 pm »
I shouldn't say.  I'll just continue to depict her behavior according to her personality, and you be the judge.

I'm just saying, don't read too much into my use of that word.  That's all.

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Re: Chapter 20: Discussion (Part 2)
« Reply #312 on: April 06, 2009, 06:13:18 am »
"As the Maytag Turns"

Tropico

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Re: Chapter 20: Discussion (Part 2)
« Reply #313 on: April 06, 2009, 07:49:15 am »
Haha. It's come to the point where Crest just makes me LOL every time he opens his mouth. If I had friends or family who read this comic with me the phrase "pulled a Crest" would be getting thrown around quite a bit now :)

1. She's so stuck on promiscuous sex that she describes the act of being monogamous as "cutting off a piece of herself".

Whoa. Are we overlooking the fact that right now she literally is in the position of having had a piece of herself cut off (yeah bitten off, w/e)? Could this be some kind of metaphorical thing Brion's got going on here? Deep, man...! :o

OR, could it be that the arm Mary bit off was actually the arm that held all her Nympho powers?? In that case it's to Bern's interest to not get it re-grown, even if she hates it being missing. Deep.


OOT > For what it's worth, I'm now coming up on 32, have an active social life and have had several live-in gfs, and have never once in my life for a second thought about wanting to have children OR get married. And I don't think I ever will... I'm very happy as I am. Go figure ??? The only downside to it is that I can see my mother really wants grandchildren... but that's what my little sister's for :D
« Last Edit: April 06, 2009, 07:54:00 am by Tropico »

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Re: Chapter 20: Discussion (Part 2)
« Reply #314 on: April 06, 2009, 07:50:59 am »
I reckon the arm will not grow back and a chain saw is going to be stuck on it  ;D
What good is dreaming it if you don't actually do it?.

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Re: Chapter 20: Discussion (Part 2)
« Reply #315 on: April 06, 2009, 07:56:29 am »
I reckon the arm will not grow back and a chain saw is going to be stuck on it  ;D

Oh my god.

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Re: Chapter 20: Discussion (Part 2)
« Reply #316 on: April 06, 2009, 08:49:12 am »
I don't know why but Crest looks very sexy on the new page. Maybe it's his cute facial expression. :-[
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Re: Chapter 20: Discussion (Part 2)
« Reply #317 on: April 06, 2009, 09:12:09 am »
I reckon the arm will not grow back and a chain saw is going to be stuck on it  ;D

You guys should've been on the old forums.

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Re: Chapter 20: Discussion (Part 2)
« Reply #318 on: April 06, 2009, 09:12:27 am »
Crest just wants to see May naked while she is putting on her jester suit.
What good is dreaming it if you don't actually do it?.

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Re: Chapter 20: Discussion (Part 2)
« Reply #319 on: April 06, 2009, 09:12:59 am »
I reckon the arm will not grow back and a chain saw is going to be stuck on it  ;D

You guys should've been on the old forums.

I was
What good is dreaming it if you don't actually do it?.

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Re: Chapter 20: Discussion (Part 2)
« Reply #320 on: April 06, 2009, 11:44:56 am »
What's with that look May is giving Crest in the last panel?

Xshu

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Re: Chapter 20: Discussion (Part 2)
« Reply #321 on: April 06, 2009, 03:02:15 pm »
May doesn't look right. She looks more upset than Bern. Weird.

Also, Bern looks like she's wearing a lot of eyeliner and mascara in panels one and four. Not that it looks bad.

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Re: Chapter 20: Discussion (Part 2)
« Reply #322 on: April 06, 2009, 03:58:07 pm »
Maytag looks so sad.  :(
Hang in there Maytag!
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« Last Edit: April 06, 2009, 04:21:39 pm by RoninAngel »
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Re: Chapter 20: Discussion (Part 2)
« Reply #323 on: April 06, 2009, 05:22:15 pm »
May doesn't look right. She looks more upset than Bern. Weird.

Well yeah... How would you feel if you had just tearfully confessed to cheating, and you Significant Other came back with "Well, duh! I knew you were a whore from the moment I set eyes on you, what did you think? I expected you to cheat! You being faithful, now -that- would have been shocking ya little slut!" or something.

That's what I've been thinking during this whole sequence actually; that if this were happening in real life the girl would very quickly take the position of "Oh so you're saying you expected me to cheat all along?? Really, nice, so you've always seen me as a whore then?? Oh really!" etc etc etc and you'd be like "I can't believe you're getting angry YOU cheated on ME" and she'd be like "Oh yeah ok whatever you say Mr. My Girlfriend's A Whore!!" and so on and so forth. Good times.

Edit: What the hell happened to my post-count?! aaaarrrggghhhhhhh :(
« Last Edit: April 06, 2009, 05:25:31 pm by Tropico »

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Re: Chapter 20: Discussion (Part 2)
« Reply #324 on: April 06, 2009, 06:53:17 pm »
Crest just wants to see May naked while she is putting on her jester suit.
*lol* that was my first thought.  Although I guess its also a reason for Brion to stop the carriage just as this chapter ends... Which means its a good opportunity for bandits or someone to attack with Suspira drained for the day and Glyph probably low on juice from powering the carriage.

But yeah, odd comment to make at a moment like this.  "Hey now you've heard all the truth, how 'bout we stop the carriage, change our clothes and work this all out."  :-\
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Re: Chapter 20: Discussion (Part 2)
« Reply #325 on: April 06, 2009, 09:03:54 pm »
looks like Maytag's deusexmachinesque super understandability is contagious

maybe is an STD  :o

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Re: Chapter 20: Discussion (Part 2)
« Reply #326 on: April 07, 2009, 01:22:52 am »
Crest just wants to see May naked while she is putting on her jester suit.

It looks like an attempt to change the route of the conversation,  but that added benefice crossing Crest's mind certainly can't be ruled out...  ;)

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Re: Chapter 20: Discussion (Part 2)
« Reply #327 on: April 07, 2009, 02:29:10 am »
That's why I dont post in here that often.  I save up little pearls of wisdom just for this sort of occasoin.
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Re: Chapter 20: Discussion (Part 2)
« Reply #328 on: April 07, 2009, 05:11:33 am »
So if May would want to cheat now,she would have to ask Bern every time?
May: -Hey Bern I'm horny,can I mess around with someone?
Bern: -Yeah,dear,you may go,but remember to come back before 10.
May: - Ok,I'm going!

I wonder what May thinks now,well she tried so hard to not be found on her cheating,for sure she lied many times to Bern,and now just like that she learns Bern knew all along from begining,indeed that must be a big shock for her.For me what Crest is saying sounds like an insult,which rather wasn't intentional,look May now even if you wore your jester suit you can't hide the truth or talk out of this thing now.
As for Crest look,well if I would not know he is a man,he really looks sexy in this page.
He would be a good candidate for a reverse trap.


Edit:
As for new page,hah didn't expect that,so we can assume she wants now tell Bern whole truth about herself and her nature...
She will tell her she loves her and only her,but she won'y change in future,she won't become like Bern would want,and saying that under "truth" spell,well for sure Bern will have tough choice here with answer,I suppose we will have to wait till new chapter how this will play out.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2009, 02:01:27 pm by Kiran »

LordKaT

  • Guest
Re: Chapter 20: Discussion (Part 2)
« Reply #329 on: April 08, 2009, 09:07:42 am »
I guess Suspira doesn't like getting bitchslapped.