Author Topic: Sex Industry Discussion  (Read 24016 times)

Razzly

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Re: Sex Industry Discussion
« Reply #90 on: September 14, 2009, 09:56:20 pm »

I'm not sure if it's correct or not, but for the sake of discussion, it's easier just to call an aspect of your personality a "trait."  If you have a better word, let me know.

I'd say your sexual preference doesn't have anything to do with your personality. It's mostly hormones and other biological sh- stuff like that. But that's just what I'd say.



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In terms of statistics I imagine you are correct, although you may be overstating with "vast" majority.  However on an individual basis, there is no way to apply this information without making assumptions about a woman's past.

...Or asking her?

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A schizophrenic is a bad example, because his past has nothing to do with why we'd be stopping him. 

But I think you got my point.

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Perhaps your language was misleading, then.  When you said *we shouldn't allow* them to be prostitutes, I assumed you were talking about criminalizing prostitution.  If something is criminalized, this implies punishment, either through fines or jailtime.  If this is not what you meant, would you mind clarifying?  What exactly did you mean by "we shouldn't allow" them to be prostitutes?  If you simply mean that the act of prostitution should be legal but procuring should be illegal, well suddenly we agree and that would be nice.  I suspect that's not what you meant, but you never know.

You're forgetful. ^^
Just at the top at this page I explain to you that I never said anything about wanting to make prostitution illegal. I haven't suddenly changed my opinion about that. I feel like I'm just repeating myself a bit here...

"Not allowing" doesn't necessarily mean jail or fines. It can also be just saying 'no' and offering alternatives. What alternatives? I don't know, I'm not a politician, but anything would be better than the terrible sew industry that we have now.
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Re: Sex Industry Discussion
« Reply #91 on: September 14, 2009, 10:30:42 pm »
I'd say your sexual preference doesn't have anything to do with your personality. It's mostly hormones and other biological sh- stuff like that. But that's just what I'd say.

Personality's probably the wrong word to use, a person's personality is constantly changing as they age.  I'll just be more vague (since I don't know that much about it anyway) and say that what happens to a person in thier formative years can have a very strong effect on how they turn out.  For example, most child molesters were sexually abused when they were children.  Not that homosexuals are in any way like child molesters, but it's just the only other example I can think of off the top of my head.

...Or asking her?

And if a prostitute says she wasn't abused as a child, would you doubt her?  If you're gonna let her do what she wants with her life anyway, what difference does it make?  If you're going to try to stop her based on her answer, how can you possibly expect an honest one?

But I think you got my point.

Well, no, I don't think your point works.  In the case of the schizophernic, you are stopping him because he is a realistic danger to others.  This is not true for the prostitute, so your point is flawed.

You're forgetful. ^^
Just at the top at this page I explain to you that I never said anything about wanting to make prostitution illegal. I haven't suddenly changed my opinion about that. I feel like I'm just repeating myself a bit here...

"Not allowing" doesn't necessarily mean jail or fines. It can also be just saying 'no' and offering alternatives. What alternatives? I don't know, I'm not a politician, but anything would be better than the terrible sew industry that we have now.

I absolutely am forgetful!  But cmon, it's easy to forget details like that, especially when you're debating more than one person.  Give me some slack!

But I really do want to know what you mean by "not allowing," if not jail.  What does "saying no" mean?  Who is the one saying no?  How exactly does this stop women from becoming prostitutes without some sort of reprocussions?  Would you mind explaining what role you think government should play in this "not allowing" women to be prostitutes?

Razzly

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Re: Sex Industry Discussion
« Reply #92 on: September 15, 2009, 03:09:35 am »


Personality's probably the wrong word to use, a person's personality is constantly changing as they age.  I'll just be more vague (since I don't know that much about it anyway) and say that what happens to a person in thier formative years can have a very strong effect on how they turn out.  For example, most child molesters were sexually abused when they were children.  Not that homosexuals are in any way like child molesters, but it's just the only other example I can think of off the top of my head.

Of course it can, but in this case it's more like a bad trauma causing a bad circle, rather than a naturally evolved sexual preference. Yes, I believe pedophiles were born pedophiles as well, and can't help it, because it's probably a biological thing. However, all pedophiles aren't child molesters, and all child molesters aren't pedophiles.


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And if a prostitute says she wasn't abused as a child, would you doubt her?  If you're gonna let her do what she wants with her life anyway, what difference does it make?  If you're going to try to stop her based on her answer, how can you possibly expect an honest one?

I don't really like the way you put words in my mouth.
"I" am not going to "stop" anyone. I don't feel like explaining this again, my patience is wearing a little bit thin...
I would ask them that particular question, and based on her answer I would try to dig deeper, offer help and alternatives, etc. etc. etc.

Of course they should be asking other questions as well.  And yes, if a lady is seriously wanting to make prostitution her life career, I'd expect her to be honest about her reasons. I'm surprised you think they would automatically lie.

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Well, no, I don't think your point works.  In the case of the schizophernic, you are stopping him because he is a realistic danger to others.  This is not true for the prostitute, so your point is flawed.

And I think a prostitute is a danger to herself.



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I absolutely am forgetful!  But cmon, it's easy to forget details like that, especially when you're debating more than one person.  Give me some slack!

But I really do want to know what you mean by "not allowing," if not jail.  What does "saying no" mean?  Who is the one saying no?  How exactly does this stop women from becoming prostitutes without some sort of reprocussions?  Would you mind explaining what role you think government should play in this "not allowing" women to be prostitutes?

It's not really just a detail, though. If you're going to debate, you can't keep forgetting a person's viewpoint. What's the point of me debating with you if you can't remember what I'm debating for? ^^

Your second question doesn't really belong here. To be able to answer that, I should be a lawyer, a politician, all of the goverment or something like that. I'm a little art-student who likes pandas, those questions are for the big educated leaders to answer. Not me.
I'm just here offering an opinion and a suggestion, improving and polishing is up to those who know how to do it.

(I don't understand the word "reprocussion." My dictionary doesn't seem to know it either, so sorry if I missed something important.)
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L The Detective

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Re: Sex Industry Discussion
« Reply #93 on: September 15, 2009, 10:10:07 am »
Of course it can, but in this case it's more like a bad trauma causing a bad circle, rather than a naturally evolved sexual preference. Yes, I believe pedophiles were born pedophiles as well, and can't help it, because it's probably a biological thing. However, all pedophiles aren't child molesters, and all child molesters aren't pedophiles.

You're right, so let's specifically talk about pedophiles.  No, just to be perfectly clear, I am talking about people with a sexual attraction to children.  According to what I've read, in almost every case they were abused as children.  Now, doesn't this pattern suggest that they were in fact *not* born with it?  Having a sexual attraction to children is a certain kind of change in sexual orientation, wouldn't you say?

I don't really like the way you put words in my mouth.
"I" am not going to "stop" anyone. I don't feel like explaining this again, my patience is wearing a little bit thin...
I would ask them that particular question, and based on her answer I would try to dig deeper, offer help and alternatives, etc. etc. etc.

Sorry.  It's just that, it's hard to examine your logic without drawing it out to logical conclusions.

And I think a prostitute is a danger to herself.

Well, like I said, I see a big difference between the government protecting someone from others, and protecting someone from themselves.  Besides, that a prostitute is "a danger to herself" is arguable.

It's not really just a detail, though. If you're going to debate, you can't keep forgetting a person's viewpoint. What's the point of me debating with you if you can't remember what I'm debating for? ^^

But you said "not allow."  Can't you see how that could be confusing?

Your second question doesn't really belong here. To be able to answer that, I should be a lawyer, a politician, all of the goverment or something like that. I'm a little art-student who likes pandas, those questions are for the big educated leaders to answer. Not me.
I'm just here offering an opinion and a suggestion, improving and polishing is up to those who know how to do it.

(I don't understand the word "reprocussion." My dictionary doesn't seem to know it either, so sorry if I missed something important.)

You're the one who said we "should not allow" prostitutes to be prostitutes.  That we should "say no."  All I'm asking for is an explanation for what you meant by this.

"Reprocussions" just means "consequences."

Ivan

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Re: Sex Industry Discussion
« Reply #94 on: October 11, 2009, 01:58:09 am »
Here are some facts about prostitutes, and what i have said about abusive pasts etc.
The dark side:

img
It's a shame, these statistics probably only represent a marginal number of those affected.

*Really late.*

charles

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Re: Sex Industry Discussion
« Reply #95 on: October 11, 2009, 07:13:51 pm »
@Ivan: Why do you think they only represent a marginal number?

See, if you look at the statistics I show from NZ they seem to show that the legalisation of prostitution has probably had a marginally positive effect since working girls can now hold pimps and brothels accountable for work practices and fair pay, together with clients who fail to pay.  However NZ is unique in the fact that it's a small western island nation which has a large western island nation (Australia) between it and the majority of the world.  This means that they have VERY few illegal immigrants.

Now go to Holland where prostitution is also legalised, however this is a land based nation with it's own language and a MUCH larger influx of illegal immigrants.  Now imagine a woman immigrates illegally.  She's unlikely to know the language very well, she's without an income, most jobs would require her to have I.D. and she's unaware of the laws.  Straight away the easiest job for her to turn to in desperation is prostitution where she can earn money cash-in-hand from tricks directly or through pimps and brothels.  The problem is that as an illegal immigrant she can't turn to the law if she's mistreated and the pimps and brothel owners can bully her into unfair conditions threatening to turn her in, telling her wild stories about how badly the law will punish her if she's caught.

Effectively the legalisation has little or no benefit to these people who make up the majority of the industry over there and simply allows them and the brothels/pimps to operate the same business out in the open, preying on the most desperate who can find no other easy source of income.

On a side note, the other positive side of legalised prostitution that my brother-in-law pointed out in NZ is that a legal industry means they're paying tax.  Apparently it's a significant amount of money (even with a number of the brothels and girls still operating underground to avoid paying it).
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Ivan

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Re: Sex Industry Discussion
« Reply #96 on: October 11, 2009, 11:12:27 pm »
Well to me it seems like one of those things that would just not get accurately represented, no matter how hard one tried to get an accurate number on these matters.

charles

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Re: Sex Industry Discussion
« Reply #97 on: October 12, 2009, 12:13:49 am »
@Ivan: So the numbers could be too low as well? *lol*

Actually that would be more likely.  The people most willing to talk for a survey would be those who are legally in the industry and have little or nothing to fear while the illegal immigrants together with those under pressure from pimps and brothel owners to speak kindly of it would be less likely to open up or talk against the profession and their "employers/managers".

I do understand what you mean though. The NZ report I linked is pretty good as it was a direct report commissioned from a professional group by the government to report on results of legalisation and note any recommended improvements or short-comings of the act.  In New Zealand they also have a few organisations who represent the working girls and guys (sort of like unions) together with university studies and reports.  Now if we were talking about a study which only obtains opinions and figures from prostitutes arrested on other charges or who have reported crimes or sought assistance from welfare groups, there can be an obvious corruption of the percentages.

Unfortunately I can't see any reference to a reasonably significant report that have been commissioned by the Netherland's government since it legalised prostitution.  Even then, unlike NZ they sort of did it in stages, firstly tolerating and turning a blind eye to the practice unless significant complaints were made, then legalising prostitution in 1988 and finally legalising brothels in 2000.  This means that unlike New Zealand which prosecuted all prostitution until it legalised all prostitution the Netherlands don't really have a good point of reference to mark how successful or unsuccessful the legalisation of the profession has been in curbing any violence of other crime.  But the only reasonably trustworthy figures I can find seem to indicate that in 2000 only 22% of the women working the profession in the Netherlands were actually Dutch-born so that certainly seems to put support behind many of the less professional reports and percentages, even if they are over or understated.

Now maybe there is a way for them to legalise the practice in a different way to improve conditions, or to police it better so they can weed out this criminal undercurrent, or maybe they need to simply outlaw it completely and prosecute the practice at every turn.  Whatever the case if those less accurate figures and reports are to be believed for even half the problems they claim, it certainly appears that the current situation and setup isn't anywhere near ideal.

I can see that apparently there are some major crack-downs occurring on the industry, so maybe they're cleaning it up. Only time will tell if they can pull this off successfully but personally I think they also need to look into pulling resources to create a report like New Zealand, so they can get an accurate reading for where the problems lie.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2009, 12:16:39 am by charles »
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Tyris

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Re: Sex Industry Discussion
« Reply #98 on: November 07, 2009, 11:26:57 am »
If you were truly on the constructive side of this issue, you'd actively work to eliminate the demand for sexual services instead of propagating for acceptance.
Well, there are two main ways to do that:
1). Chemically eliminate the libido
2). Smash the foundations of society entirely and (somehow, possibly through the use of pentagrams and blood) replace it with a construct wherein the numbers of people wanting and having sex are precisely equal
As long as the demand for sex is greater than the amount of sex being had, the remainder will manifest as a demand for sexual services.

I'd say your sexual preference doesn't have anything to do with your personality. It's mostly hormones and other biological sh- stuff like that. But that's just what I'd say.
But... the rest of your personality is mostly hormones and other biological stuff too... and we're not sure about "mostly."
« Last Edit: November 07, 2009, 11:29:02 am by Tyris »
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