Author Topic: Sex Industry Discussion  (Read 24019 times)

L The Detective

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Re: Sex Industry Discussion
« Reply #60 on: September 09, 2009, 10:27:31 am »
If you read my earlier posts you will notice that I never mentioned wanting to make prostitution illegal. In that sense, I'm "on your side."
The problem I see with all this, is that most prostitutes, even those who do it willingly, have a history of emotional/sexual/physical abuse

I'm not sure to what extent this is true.  When you include "emotional abuse," I realize that this is a real thing, but depending on how you define it almost everyone has suffered emotional abuse at one time or another.  However, even removing that from the equation, I realize that a large amount of prostitutes have suffered from sexual abuse, or at least that's what the statistics seem to say.  So let's assume you're right about that.

This makes me wonder, what their reason for selling themselves is. Most likely, having researched this, it's a self-destructive thing. Question is, is this a good thing? Having women sell themselves because of past abuse? There is a connection here, you can't deny that.

First of all, not all prostitutes are prostitutes because they've been abused.  Some may be doing it just for the money, and it's possible that some may even enjoy the lifestyle, although this may be difficult for you to comprehend.  But let's put them aside and focus on the ones you're talking about.

What you're saying is that past abuses have formed them into being the type of person who wants to be a prostitute.  In my opinion, this doesn't say anything about the morality of prostitution itself.  Let me give you a different example.  I've read that the cause of homosexuality in many cases is abuse at a young age.  Now, I just want to make the disclaimer like I did before that I am not entirely sure how accurate that is, but for the sake of the example let's assume it is accurate, it certainly is for at least some homosexuals.  According to your own logic, this makes homosexuality immoral for those individuals because it was brought about by abuse.  Do you agree with that?

I disagree.  I say that the morality of the actions that form a person to be a certain way, and the morality of the person's actions as a result of that, are two different things.  So neither homosexuality or prostitution are inherently wrong, regardless of how these tendencies are brought about.

You call it "self-destructive."  Certainly, it makes logical sense to say that a person willingly entering a world of crime and abuse just to make money is being self-destructive.  But that's assuming prostitution is illegal.  It doesn't address my argument, that prostitution can be a clean business if it is legitimized.  You are free to argue that I'm wrong, but I think the few examples of legalized prostitution we have today in progressive societies like the Netherlands show a trend that I could be right.

It's this abuse-prostitution and human trafficing thing I have a problem with. There is nothing good about that and it definietly needs to be fought against. Just legalizing prostitution and leaving it be will not erase the underage slaves and forced women. Selan has already explained and showed this to you.

On the contrary, I'm very confident that both you and Selan are 100% wrong on this issue.  The reason prostitution is such a corrupt business in most parts of the world and has underage/forced women is because there is no oversight.  The government has no say, and in fact it's not interested in protecting the women in question because it considers them criminals.  The only way to change this is to legitimize these women, doing so is the same as protecting them.  Keeping prosititution illegal is the same as throwing these women to the wolves and washing your hands of them, isn't it?

And I've spoken to a woman who thought that women are all stupid, slow, and useless, and that males are naturally superior. What's your point?
In this thread, it seems very clear that it's mainly guys versus girls.

My point is that this thread is a small sample size.  Besides, it's not guys vs girls, it's more like everyone vs me, who just so happens to be a guy.  I think that trying to frame it as a guys vs girls issue does a disservice to your ideas.  I don't think whether you are a guy or a girl gives you any increased authority on this issue, because we are talking about other people who are not us.  Just because you are a woman doesn't mean you can speak for all prostitutes any more than a man could.  So it's not really important where guys and girls are on this issue... besides, I'm convinced that if prostitution were legalized, there would be less abused women everywhere, now even if I'm wrong you can't say my heart isn't in the right place, can you? 

Also, society is about dictating other people's rights. It's done all the time.

I fundamentally disagree.  Society, well... that's a wierd word to use, you can label it however you want but "society" isn't about anything so much as people living together.  What I believe you're talking about is the role of government.  I think you're saying that government needs to dictate people's rights for the good of society.  While I agree, I'd say it's a necessary evil.  I think that when it comes to dictating people's right, the role of government is to protect us from harming one another, but no more than that.  I don't think the role of government is to force one set of values onto everyone; I think that's immoral. 

charles

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Re: Sex Industry Discussion
« Reply #61 on: September 09, 2009, 11:06:59 pm »
Sexual freedom and prostitution is quite separate entities in my book.

Why?

I'd regard sexual freedom for a woman as that woman having sex with a man (or woman) because she want to have sex with them. Prostitution is the woman having sex with him because she wants or needs his money.
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CrystalDragonSpaceMarine

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Re: Sex Industry Discussion
« Reply #62 on: September 09, 2009, 11:24:44 pm »
Sexual freedom and prostitution is quite separate entities in my book.

Why?

I'd regard sexual freedom for a woman as that woman having sex with a man (or woman) because she want to have sex with them. Prostitution is the woman having sex with him because she wants or needs his money.

Wouldn't you say though that's her option to choose to use her sex as a business, as opposed to applying some other trait/skill of hers to making money and getting a different job? Why would being a whore suddenly stand out as "non-freedom"?

charles

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Re: Sex Industry Discussion
« Reply #63 on: September 09, 2009, 11:36:45 pm »
@CDSM: It can obviously depend.  As the NZ study showed, there were women who liked the money, flexible hours and comradery they felt with fellow prostitutes.  However there are others who feel cornered and forced into it to pay debts.  I'm inclined to agree with Emp_Dragon that there is indeed a difference between sexual freedom and prostitution.  It's as different as the freedom to do as you wish in a workplace and the need to do as your employer tells you in order to earn your daily pay.

If we simply look at history, you are correct that it always has been, but perhaps that's due to other factors.  Maybe prostitution has always been a "dirty" industry because sex has always been seen as a "dirty" activity, and perhaps if we are able to get past that it could be as clean as any other business.  That's what I'd like to believe, anyway.  And being against prositution because it has higher rates of abuse and other criminal activity just seems wrong to me in spirit.  It's not prositituion we should be against, it's abuse and criminal activity.  Problems should be attacked directly.

I do half understand what you mean by getting past the view of sex as a dirty activity, but it's not merely sex we're talking about, it's the purchase of sexual service rather than the giving/sharing of sex between adults.  As the others are pointing out, it's a sort of human trafficking, where the prostitute is seen like an object that you turn off and on with money rather than a human being.

I agree it's the abuse and criminal activity we need to be against.  The question is, do these crimes remain lower when prostitution is policed and not tolerated or is there a way to legalise it where you would reduce the abuse and crime rates?

If the industry is illegal, then the conditions will be the the worst, but policing should ensure that no establishments remain in business for very long (sooner or later the police hear about it, raid it and put a stop to it).  If it's legalised you'd think conditions would improve, but now you have permanent establishments able to operate for long periods of time and fund other criminal enterprises that the owners or participants are likely to be a party to.  Even for the customers, it becomes a permanent hub for seeking out other criminal elements.
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CrystalDragonSpaceMarine

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Re: Sex Industry Discussion
« Reply #64 on: September 09, 2009, 11:48:12 pm »
@CDSM: It can obviously depend.  As the NZ study showed, there were women who liked the money, flexible hours and comradery they felt with fellow prostitutes.  However there are others who feel cornered and forced into it to pay debts.  I'm inclined to agree with Emp_Dragon that there is indeed a difference between sexual freedom and prostitution.  It's as different as the freedom to do as you wish in a workplace and the need to do as your employer tells you in order to earn your daily pay.

Well, doing as your employer tells you is par for the course, provided it's not something outside your normal job description, as given when you were hired.

Besides, it's a good way to solve unemployment problems. There's pretty much a universal, infinite demand for sex. The only reason it's no a bigger business is because of taboos and the fact that most people get it for free.

L The Detective

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Re: Sex Industry Discussion
« Reply #65 on: September 10, 2009, 12:35:26 am »
I'd regard sexual freedom for a woman as that woman having sex with a man (or woman) because she want to have sex with them. Prostitution is the woman having sex with him because she wants or needs his money.

It's her freedom to use her body for a specific purpose.  You could argue that women have sex for all sorts of unwholesome purposes, only one of which is the purpose of making money.  I think women should be allowed to have sex for any reason they choose, so "sexual freedom" makes sense to me.  But, it's just semantics, and not really that important.

I do half understand what you mean by getting past the view of sex as a dirty activity, but it's not merely sex we're talking about, it's the purchase of sexual service rather than the giving/sharing of sex between adults.  As the others are pointing out, it's a sort of human trafficking, where the prostitute is seen like an object that you turn off and on with money rather than a human being.

It's not necessarily human trafficking.  Although, I suppose if the woman is working in a brothel, you have a point.  But suppose a woman is running her own escort service on the web.  Would you then say she is trafficking herself?

I agree it's the abuse and criminal activity we need to be against.  The question is, do these crimes remain lower when prostitution is policed and not tolerated or is there a way to legalise it where you would reduce the abuse and crime rates?

Well, morally I'm just against the government telling people what they can do with thier own bodies.  But putting aside the moral aspect and just looking at the practical application of the law, I agree that this is an important question.

If the industry is illegal, then the conditions will be the the worst, but policing should ensure that no establishments remain in business for very long (sooner or later the police hear about it, raid it and put a stop to it).  If it's legalised you'd think conditions would improve, but now you have permanent establishments able to operate for long periods of time and fund other criminal enterprises that the owners or participants are likely to be a party to.  Even for the customers, it becomes a permanent hub for seeking out other criminal elements.

That's probably true, although I think it should be possible for the government to regulate these establishments in such a way that would limit these abuses, but maybe that's harder to do than I'm giving credit for.  I've been reading a little about this issue lately, and maybe it would be better to legalize the act of prostitution, but criminalize procuring it, meaning make pimping and businesses like brothels illegal.

« Last Edit: September 10, 2009, 12:47:20 am by L The Detective »

charles

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Re: Sex Industry Discussion
« Reply #66 on: September 10, 2009, 12:37:28 am »
@CDSM: But you can see that there is a difference between "Sexual Freedom" and "prostitution".  I guess another comparison might be volunteer work as opposed to paid work.  I once taught computer skills to the elderly for charity but of course there's a lot less pressure for me to keep doing that or to teach anyone and everyone than there is for me to do it as my paid career where refusal to teach somone could result in the loss of my job, or my quitting would suddenly leave me financially burdened.

The NZ study found that people often had to try 3 or more times to exit the industry and the main obstacle was money because they couldn't hold their jobs or find a job to pay what they needed to live their lifestyle.  Thus, they weren't exactly "Free" in their sexuality but felt trapped in prostitution by the money.

And yet you think that illegalizing abortion is a horrible miscarge (pun intended  :P) of human rights?

I think that the government should not be able tell you what to do with your own body.
Yeah, you missed the point Razzly was making there.  The problem isn't should women be able to have an abortion, the problem is that they're getting unwanted pregnancies.  Thus the core of the problem could lie in a lack of education on contraception or a range of other areas.

With prostitution you could be missing out on core problems with the women involved.  Razzly specified that past abuse can be responsible for some mental issues they have which results in them having little or no self respect for themselves and their bodies, or social problems that make them unfit for other work.  There could be other or contributing issues.  The NZ report specified that money was the main reason for joining the industry, so you have to ask why these women are unable to get other work or why are they unable to provide adequately for themselves on the work they can get.

The NZ report noted a percentage of underage prostitution but also noted that the vast majority were 17 years old.  Most of these girls weren't in the industry because they were pushed by parents or others to get money from pedophiles, but were faking their age so they could work it for the money.  The report then noted that there was a gap in welfare for unsupported children once they turned 17 making them too old for the welfare but too young for most jobs and other opportunities.  Thus the amount of underage prostitution could have been significantly reduced, not by legalising prostitution, but by fixing this gap in the welfare system for 17-18 year olds.
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L The Detective

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Re: Sex Industry Discussion
« Reply #67 on: September 10, 2009, 12:52:50 am »
The NZ report noted a percentage of underage prostitution but also noted that the vast majority were 17 years old.  Most of these girls weren't in the industry because they were pushed by parents or others to get money from pedophiles, but were faking their age so they could work it for the money.  The report then noted that there was a gap in welfare for unsupported children once they turned 17 making them too old for the welfare but too young for most jobs and other opportunities.  Thus the amount of underage prostitution could have been significantly reduced, not by legalising prostitution, but by fixing this gap in the welfare system for 17-18 year olds.

That's a wonderful point.

Also, personally I think that 18 seems unreasonably old for an age of consent.  16 seems more reasonable.  There's a strange thing in society where we seem to be afraid to let children grow up, combined with a fear of sex, that seems to lead to things like this.   But that's a different issue, of course...

charles

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Re: Sex Industry Discussion
« Reply #68 on: September 10, 2009, 01:42:17 am »
In Australia, the Age of consent is 16. If one or both of the participants is under 16, then it's only illegal if one of the participants is more than two years older than the other.  Remember though, that a childhood is a precious gift.

I'm sure there's another thread in the debate room for this which had some excellent discussions and arguments on the subject. I'll find and link it here if I can so we can possibly continue discussion there. (await an edit)

However, I do agree that if prostitution is to be legalised then it should remain illegal for under 18 participants (I think the NZ law follows EMP's no-fault ruling for the underage prostitute, only punishing those who buy or facilitate them).

EDIT: DAMN! can't find the thread. I'll have a better look later but it may have been in the old forum which would be a pitty 'cos it was a really good discussion.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2009, 01:57:11 am by charles »
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L The Detective

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Re: Sex Industry Discussion
« Reply #69 on: September 10, 2009, 02:35:55 am »
That's all right.  I'd prefer to wait until these discussions have winded down before jumping into any new ones.  But feel free to start a new thread about it at a later time, I'll be happy to contribute.

CrystalDragonSpaceMarine

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Re: Sex Industry Discussion
« Reply #70 on: September 10, 2009, 08:07:21 am »
@CDSM: But you can see that there is a difference between "Sexual Freedom" and "prostitution".  I guess another comparison might be volunteer work as opposed to paid work.  I once taught computer skills to the elderly for charity but of course there's a lot less pressure for me to keep doing that or to teach anyone and everyone than there is for me to do it as my paid career where refusal to teach somone could result in the loss of my job, or my quitting would suddenly leave me financially burdened.

Then maybe "sexual freedom" isn't the right term, but at least it's about giving them an option. If they can't hold any other jobs...they have no choice but to turn to what is now a crime.

In Australia, the Age of consent is 16. If one or both of the participants is under 16, then it's only illegal if one of the participants is more than two years older than the other.  Remember though, that a childhood is a precious gift.

I'm sure there's another thread in the debate room for this which had some excellent discussions and arguments on the subject. I'll find and link it here if I can so we can possibly continue discussion there. (await an edit)

However, I do agree that if prostitution is to be legalised then it should remain illegal for under 18 participants (I think the NZ law follows EMP's no-fault ruling for the underage prostitute, only punishing those who buy or facilitate them).

EDIT: DAMN! can't find the thread. I'll have a better look later but it may have been in the old forum which would be a pitty 'cos it was a really good discussion.

I think it was, and it never carried over. Might be worth a revisit in the future though.


Razzly

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Re: Sex Industry Discussion
« Reply #71 on: September 10, 2009, 12:44:23 pm »




First of all, not all prostitutes are prostitutes because they've been abused.  Some may be doing it just for the money, and it's possible that some may even enjoy the lifestyle, although this may be difficult for you to comprehend.  But let's put them aside and focus on the ones you're talking about.

Damn right it's difficult for me to comprehend. But I guess you know everything about it then?

Quote
I've read that the cause of homosexuality in many cases is abuse at a young age.  Now, I just want to make the disclaimer like I did before that I am not entirely sure how accurate that is, but for the sake of the example let's assume it is accurate, it certainly is for at least some homosexuals.  According to your own logic, this makes homosexuality immoral for those individuals because it was brought about by abuse.  Do you agree with that?

No, it does not, because Homosexuality is a genetic thing, not something caused by your upbringing or abuse. Your example does not work.



Quote
You call it "self-destructive."  Certainly, it makes logical sense to say that a person willingly entering a world of crime and abuse just to make money is being self-destructive.  But that's assuming prostitution is illegal.  It doesn't address my argument, that prostitution can be a clean business if it is legitimized.  You are free to argue that I'm wrong, but I think the few examples of legalized prostitution we have today in progressive societies like the Netherlands show a trend that I could be right.

I think you're wrong and have a twisted view on things, really.



Quote
On the contrary, I'm very confident that both you and Selan are 100% wrong on this issue. 


And interestingly, both me and Selan think you're a 100% wrong. The difference between you and Selan is also that she tries to get valid proof into her arguments, you do not. Naturally I will see Selan's arguments and way of thinking more correct.
(I see what you're thinking there! I don't have proof, either! ^^ I come here to blow off steam, not to research. Ahem.)



Quote
besides, I'm convinced that if prostitution were legalized, there would be less abused women everywhere, now even if I'm wrong you can't say my heart isn't in the right place, can you? 

It's not everyone against you. It's just that those who agree with you are too afraid to voice their opinion about this sensitive subject.
I also don't doubt at all that you believe your point of view is the absolute best for women and prostitutes. I do, however, also think that you're completely wrong. I think my point of view is better for all prostitutes and women, and I also selfishly believe that I know more about the general woman's way of thinking and emotional processes, than you, as a man, do.
We can't disprove eachother here, so it's kind of pointless anyway.



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I fundamentally disagree.  Society, well... that's a wierd word to use,



That is because I'm writing in my third language, and I sometimes forget words like "government" and use the next best thing.
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Selan

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Re: Sex Industry Discussion
« Reply #72 on: September 10, 2009, 03:26:55 pm »
Oh well... Since we are so hung on facts... Here are some facts translated from Dutch wich have been publiced in the media. Look at the date and the years. This is many years after the legalisation of prostitution in Holland wich was in 2000. This was a lot of work to translate btw ;)

1 Source: De Stentor 2 juli 2008


Even tho the Netherlands held a ceremony to remember our past with slavery it would be ludacris to believe that there isn't anymore forced labour here. Antonie Fountain from Stop the Traffik, a international coalition of organisations against humantraffic, is talking about prostitution

"Last week i spook with a pimp that held a brothel on the Wallen. i asked him how many of the women in Amsterdam as a prostitute are forced into prostition ;8, 10 of 50 procent? He gave me a suprised look and said: 50 procent? Much more!", tells Fountain. "slavery is vorbidden an that's why it's hard to get statistics but i think that the remark the pimp made means a lot"
According to Fountain the Netherlands ranks high on the list of countries involved in slavery. Not only people working is prostitution but also people that work in chinese restaurants or as housekeepers

Fountain: "It's insane that victims from human trafficking don't get protection as long as they don't report to the police. Also the Dutch government makes sure that they keep as much asylumseekers away from their borders as possible. Foreign victims of human trafficing know that they won't get any support from the Dutch government.

(I know that this is a fact because i lost a friend this way. She was victim of human trafficing and was deported back to her country without any counseling or guidence after she was lured into Holland, raped several times and the forced into prostitution, after her escape they put her into an asylumseeker camp and deported her back to her country of origin. No police help whatsoever this was in 2001/2002)

2: Parool Friday 31 october 2008

Utrecht shocked about statistics forced prostitution

The politicions from Utrecht are shocked that statistics show that 50 to 90% of the Utrecht window prostitutes are being forced.


Camera surveilence
The city counsel, the police and juristiction presented an action plan to be able to fight against human trafficing. One of the plans is to do more checks and use camera surveilence

Exploitation

There are serious signals that show that since last year there has been structural exploitation of prostitutes and that a lot of them are being forced according to the police. This all happends at zandpad (prostitution area)


Legal?
Most women come from south south, eastern europe and south africa. The police doubts if those girls are of legal age. Helpers and the police see that more than before women get beaten an hurt. Shady characters bring the women to their work and pick them up after they are done.



3:
Newspaper archive
18 december 2001

ChildRight: More and more children in prostitution


AMSTERDAM - The statistics that ChildRight published yesterday are high, because they also included streetkids between 13 and 17 years old. according to ChildRight-manager Theo Knippenberg. ,,Besides that, there is an increase in "loverboys". They make girls fall in love with them and then force them to work in prostitution

   
The amount of Dutch children working in prostitution has increased from circa 4000 to more then 15000.
According to Childright

Especially handicaped, boys and underage asylumseekers without parents and streetkids end up more often in prostitution
The police claims that there is an increase in the amount of underages kids in prostitution, but they claim that it isn't as much as the statistics that Childright shows


4:
 
6 februari 2009

Human trafficing in Holland is increasing a lot since last year. Especially registered victims form Hungary and China

The amount of registered Hungarian victims has increased almost 400% since 2007
The amount of victims from the Netherlands, China and Sierra Leone also increased a lot.

In 2008, there was a total of 809 victims registered (716 in 2007).  46 men en 763 women.

60% of the women are sure to have been forced to work in the sexindustry 5% was forced to work in a different sector. The other 35% wasn't working yet when they where discovered

Alomost 40% of the victims is Dutch, a lot of them where women and girls forced into prostitution by "loverboys" So a lot of the human trafficing is within Dutch borders
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So yeah.... These are some statistics from a country where prostitution is legal.
The problem is that victims are scared.
There is also a problem with supply and demand.
Do they want a Dutch chick with blond hair? or a very good looking young woman from Russia?
How about those that fancy kids? All done in a few seconds if you know the right people.
Where can you make more money?
By having a brothel and paying tax?
Or by supplying sexy women that don't get any money at all an can be exploited to pieces?
You do the same job but get paid more, and since this world is all about money the choise would be easy for a lot of people.


Anyway... translating directly from Dutch is horrible so i guess my translation is just that. But i think you can all get what is in the articles. Think about it... There is no such thing as happy prostitution, not as long as the majority suffers from mental illness, abuse, extort and other horrible crimes against humanity.
Even if they would be able to reduce it to 10% it would still be a corrupted and sick business.

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Re: Sex Industry Discussion
« Reply #73 on: September 10, 2009, 03:46:42 pm »
Prostitution is always going to be around, lets face it its the second oldest profession in the world next only to farming.

The best thing that could be done it to make it controlled in a way that keeps it reasonable.

I mean the American porn industry is already very controlled, by its own kind of self imposed oversight organization but controlled nonetheless. It was created to make sure actress and actors were treated fairly, paid appropriately and free of any STD's.

If something similar could be imposed with prostitution it would be a great step towards lessening the horrors of human trafficking.

As for agreeing with it, yes if someone wants to, and I'll put up the argument as to why. Hey why does anyone choose their work anyway, you would have to take it in a person by person case.


Quote
I've read that the cause of homosexuality in many cases is abuse at a young age.  Now, I just want to make the disclaimer like I did before that I am not entirely sure how accurate that is, but for the sake of the example let's assume it is accurate, it certainly is for at least some homosexuals.  According to your own logic, this makes homosexuality immoral for those individuals because it was brought about by abuse.  Do you agree with that?

No, it does not, because Homosexuality is a genetic thing, not something caused by your upbringing or abuse. Your example does not work.


I facepalmed so hard here...
There is evidence that shows that genetics may play a role, but there is also a lot of evidence to show there are other factors.
Neither has yet to be proven.

L The Detective

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Re: Sex Industry Discussion
« Reply #74 on: September 10, 2009, 05:02:28 pm »
Damn right it's difficult for me to comprehend. But I guess you know everything about it then?

The only thing I know is that there is such a huge amount of people out there, that almost any type of person you can think of exists.  Of course there exist women who don't consider thier bodies sacred objects and have no issue making money off them.  We can debate over how small the percentage is, but that's not really important, what's relevant is that such women exist.

No, it does not, because Homosexuality is a genetic thing, not something caused by your upbringing or abuse. Your example does not work.

According to what I've read, that's not strictly true.  No "gay gene" has been identified, what most researchers seem to say is that it is a mix of genetic and social factors, although to be fair it doesn't seem to be 100% known at this time.  Keep in mind that either way it isn't a "choice," since if anything happens to you in your formative years which effects your orientation, it's not like you could help it any more than if it were genetic.

However, none of that's important to this discussion.  My example works because it was meant to be hypothetical, as I mentioned in my previous post to you.  It's not dependant on what *is* true, the point is that *if* this were true, it would still not have any effect on the morality of homosexuality.  This is the point I wanted you to answer.  It's very easy to say "well that's not true so I don't have to think about it," but please reconsider this mentality; it's very difficult to debate about morals without using hypothetical situations.

I think you're wrong and have a twisted view on things, really.

I wouldn't call your viewpoint "twisted."  I think your heart's in the right place, but the mistake you are making is that you are taking your own moral values and assuming they are true for all women.  This is a very common mistake.

(I see what you're thinking there! I don't have proof, either! ^^ I come here to blow off steam, not to research. Ahem.)

Glad you're here!  I hope you're blowing off lots of steam.

It's not everyone against you. It's just that those who agree with you are too afraid to voice their opinion about this sensitive subject.
I also don't doubt at all that you believe your point of view is the absolute best for women and prostitutes. I do, however, also think that you're completely wrong. I think my point of view is better for all prostitutes and women, and I also selfishly believe that I know more about the general woman's way of thinking and emotional processes, than you, as a man, do.
We can't disprove eachother here, so it's kind of pointless anyway.

Well, this is a philosophical discussion, so it really is impossible for one side to be "proved" right.  There are no absolute morals.  The only thing we can do is use logic to determine which position is more reasonable and works better towards whatever our goals are.  But hey, even if no one's mind is changed, it's still important to have a dialogue about these issues, don't you think?

That is because I'm writing in my third language, and I sometimes forget words like "government" and use the next best thing.

Then you're doing a great job!  What's your first language?

L The Detective

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Re: Sex Industry Discussion
« Reply #75 on: September 10, 2009, 05:17:50 pm »
So yeah.... These are some statistics from a country where prostitution is legal.
The problem is that victims are scared.
There is also a problem with supply and demand.
Do they want a Dutch chick with blond hair? or a very good looking young woman from Russia?
How about those that fancy kids? All done in a few seconds if you know the right people.
Where can you make more money?
By having a brothel and paying tax?
Or by supplying sexy women that don't get any money at all an can be exploited to pieces?
You do the same job but get paid more, and since this world is all about money the choise would be easy for a lot of people.

Anyway... translating directly from Dutch is horrible so i guess my translation is just that. But i think you can all get what is in the articles. Think about it... There is no such thing as happy prostitution, not as long as the majority suffers from mental illness, abuse, extort and other horrible crimes against humanity.
Even if they would be able to reduce it to 10% it would still be a corrupted and sick business.

Yes, it seems you're right about prostitution in Holland, it seems like they are having more problems with slavery than I would have guessed.

I've been reading a little bit about Holland and the Netherlands, seems they are having a lot of problems with crime.  The theory is that legalized prostitution causes increased demand, which in turn increases demand for all of the illegal stuff.  Also, I think it could have a lot to do with the fact that these countries are well known for legalized prostitution, which attracts these sort of people.

It still seems wrong though to keep prostitution illegal, as then we are turning our backs on prostitutes who are already victims.  Maybe a better solution is to criminalize procuring prostitution but not the act itself.  That's what I'm thinking right now, but I'm not sure.

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Re: Sex Industry Discussion
« Reply #76 on: September 10, 2009, 07:00:32 pm »
@Selan:  Is there a government commissioned report on the industry in Holland that you could link (Similar to the NZ one I keep referencing)?  I'll just run it through Google Translate and a few others to read the thing.

The NZ report I keep referencing appears to show the results of legalised prostitution in that country in a relatively neutral or possibly even positive light.  However NZ is an island country, south of another western country which is easier to access by boat (Australia) so it doesn't have anywhere near the level of illegal immigrants that Holland would.

Prostitution is always going to be around, lets face it its the second oldest profession in the world next only to farming.
Same with theft I guess. Thats always going to be around, but we're not about to make it legal ;)

The best thing that could be done it to make it controlled in a way that keeps it reasonable.

I mean the American porn industry is already very controlled, by its own kind of self imposed oversight organization but controlled nonetheless. It was created to make sure actress and actors were treated fairly, paid appropriately and free of any STD's.

If something similar could be imposed with prostitution it would be a great step towards lessening the horrors of human trafficking.

I agree that it should be legal if there's a way of legalising it which reduces the abuse and suffering by those involved, but I'm not yet sure if they've discovered a system or proven that it does do that.

As for agreeing with it, yes if someone wants to, and I'll put up the argument as to why. Hey why does anyone choose their work anyway, you would have to take it in a person by person case.
As the NZ report showed, the majority of women took it up for the money.  However it also showed that money was the problem with people who wanted to leave the industry.  Effectively it showed that there were women who felt trapped in it, due to financial needs which may suggest a problem in unemployment, suitable employment or wage levels.  However the report did also note that there were a number of women who claimed to truly enjoy the work and even became offended at the question of if they wanted to leave it or if they felt trapped in it.

I guess what Razzly might be saying is that sure you could possibly find people like those noted who appear to truly enjoy the business but you can also find women who truly enjoy being beaten (and I'm not talking the nice or kinky type of beating). So you have to ask, do they really enjoy the business or is their behavior covering for some deep seated emotional trauma.  But hey, feel free to put up that argument as to why.  The NZ report noted Money, flexible working hours and a sense of comradery.

No, it does not, because Homosexuality is a genetic thing, not something caused by your upbringing or abuse. Your example does not work.
There is evidence that shows that genetics may play a role, but there is also a lot of evidence to show there are other factors.
Neither has yet to be proven.

Yeah, they proved it with Lesbian Worms.  But conservatives are doing their best to fight it 'cos they still want to believe homosexuality is a mental disease that can be cured, so you'll still see a lot of argument out there.  If we're to say it's a combination then I guess that suggests it's a genetic pre-disposition which can be overcome with psychological treatment.
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L The Detective

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Re: Sex Industry Discussion
« Reply #77 on: September 10, 2009, 07:30:38 pm »
Same with theft I guess. Thats always going to be around, but we're not about to make it legal ;)

But the difference is that with prostitution criminalized, the victims can't go to the police.  Victims of theft can.  To make it comparable to theft, it would have to be illegal to be stolen *from!*

Yeah, they proved it with Lesbian Worms.

I wasn't aware of that.

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Re: Sex Industry Discussion
« Reply #78 on: September 10, 2009, 08:02:59 pm »
Same with theft I guess. Thats always going to be around, but we're not about to make it legal ;)

But the difference is that with prostitution criminalized, the victims can't go to the police.  Victims of theft can.  To make it comparable to theft, it would have to be illegal to be stolen *from!*

It was in relation to this statement:
Prostitution is always going to be around, lets face it its the second oldest profession in the world next only to farming.
Just because something has always been around doesn't mean it should be legal or illegal.  Its not really a point that has any relevance.  The ability for victims to go to the police as you mentioned, is an example of a good point/argument, but we don't simply turn around on an activity and say "well it's always been around, it always will be to a certain extent, no matter how much we police it, so lets just make it legal."

I was wondering with this law that holds the prostitutes as faultless, would that still allow them to claim payment for services delivered? example: A guy agrees to pay for sex, the prostitute delivers, he fails to pay. Can she actually go to authorities (who will obviously charge the guy for buying sex) and also sue for the payment? i.e. does the law recognise the agreement/transation as a legally binding contract?
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Re: Sex Industry Discussion
« Reply #79 on: September 10, 2009, 08:53:01 pm »

Yeah, they proved it with Lesbian Worms.  But conservatives are doing their best to fight it 'cos they still want to believe homosexuality is a mental disease that can be cured, so you'll still see a lot of argument out there.  If we're to say it's a combination then I guess that suggests it's a genetic pre-disposition which can be overcome with psychological treatment.

Lesbian worms?

Well, I don't think there's a "magic gene" that makes you gay or straight, I'd say humans are a fair more complicated than worms.

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Re: Sex Industry Discussion
« Reply #80 on: September 10, 2009, 09:04:16 pm »
*shrug* a discussion for another forum topic, but what they did was activate the gene that causes male structures to develop in the body but only activated it in the brain of the worms.
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L The Detective

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Re: Sex Industry Discussion
« Reply #81 on: September 10, 2009, 09:39:55 pm »
Just because something has always been around doesn't mean it should be legal or illegal.  Its not really a point that has any relevance.  The ability for victims to go to the police as you mentioned, is an example of a good point/argument, but we don't simply turn around on an activity and say "well it's always been around, it always will be to a certain extent, no matter how much we police it, so lets just make it legal."

That's true.  I got a little carried away.

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Re: Sex Industry Discussion
« Reply #82 on: September 12, 2009, 04:08:09 am »

 My example works because it was meant to be hypothetical, as I mentioned in my previous post to you.  It's not dependant on what *is* true, the point is that *if* this were true, it would still not have any effect on the morality of homosexuality.  This is the point I wanted you to answer.  It's very easy to say "well that's not true so I don't have to think about it," but please reconsider this mentality; it's very difficult to debate about morals without using hypothetical situations.

Yes, I know what you were originally trying to say. I just didn't want to address it because I think homosexuality was such a bad example.. And whether or not it's been 100% proven, the evidence is leaning towards it being a biological, not mental, thing. I've seen this in my own siblings - my 10-year old brother is definietly gay, and he hasn't been raised or treated any differently than the other 8 of us kids.

This is also why I can just go ahead and facepalm right back at you, Keaoden. Bitch.

Oh, excuse me, back at your original point, L... All right, the reason I still think your hypothetical example does not work is, that Homosexuality does not hurt anyone anymore than "normal" love does. Even if Homosexuality was a direct result of abuse and mental illness... I still wouldn't fight against it, because gay people aren't hurting anyone. There are no huge issues with underage rape, slavery and objectification in the gay lifestyle.
Am I making sense?

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I wouldn't call your viewpoint "twisted."  I think your heart's in the right place, but the mistake you are making is that you are taking your own moral values and assuming they are true for all women.  This is a very common mistake.

No, not all. Most. As in, the larger percentage, just like the larger percentage of prostitutes seem to be forced into the business, and suffer from past abuse and/or mental illness.


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Glad you're here!  I hope you're blowing off lots of steam.

Really? I thought you'd think of me of that damn Panda who's always going rabid in the debates. Oh, and I am blowing off steam. And building some, too! (Glad you're here, too.)


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Well, this is a philosophical discussion, so it really is impossible for one side to be "proved" right.  There are no absolute morals.  The only thing we can do is use logic to determine which position is more reasonable and works better towards whatever our goals are.  But hey, even if no one's mind is changed, it's still important to have a dialogue about these issues, don't you think?

Yes, I agree very much.


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Then you're doing a great job!  What's your first language?

Why, thank you. My first language would be Finnish.
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L The Detective

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Re: Sex Industry Discussion
« Reply #83 on: September 12, 2009, 02:13:50 pm »
And whether or not it's been 100% proven, the evidence is leaning towards it being a biological, not mental, thing.

Well, that's still not entirely accurate.  Just because there is evidence that there is a biological component, doesn't mean that there can't also be a social component.  Those two things are not mutually exclusive.  The only way to prove that it is entirely biological would be to identify a gay gene, which they have most certainly not done, worms aside.  You're mostly right, but I think you want to be careful not to overstate your case.

This is also why I can just go ahead and facepalm right back at you, Keaoden. Bitch.

Now, now.  I didn't get mad at you when you called me "twisted."  Let's try to keep the name-calling out of this.  Sometimes we all get emotional about these issues, you might read something you strongly disagree with and feel disgusted, and can't help expressing that in little ways like "facepalm," etc.  Then the other person feels insulted and feels this has given them liscence to start the name calling.  Just not good.  Let's not let a little thing like that elevate into a fight, besides you two probably like each other outside of this thread.  (Well maybe not, what do I know.)

Oh, excuse me, back at your original point, L... All right, the reason I still think your hypothetical example does not work is, that Homosexuality does not hurt anyone anymore than "normal" love does. Even if Homosexuality was a direct result of abuse and mental illness... I still wouldn't fight against it, because gay people aren't hurting anyone. There are no huge issues with underage rape, slavery and objectification in the gay lifestyle.
Am I making sense?

Yes and no.  The original point was this: that the tendency to become a prostitute is a trait brought about by abuse.  Since this abuse is immoral, your logic is that any traits caused by it are unhealthy.  Whether the actual lifestyle itself hurts anyone is peripheral to your point; if you just want to argue that prostitution is unhealthy because it hurts people, that's a direct arguement and how the traits were brought about doesn't matter.  You can easily see this by imaginging a different scenario, say that the tendency to be a prostitute was brought about by smelling flowers.  The act of smelling flowers is not unhealthy, but all of your arguements about why prostitution is harmful remain unchanged.

What I say is that morally, those two things should be seperated.  If abuse brings about a trait of increased tendency towards something, the morals ot that something have nothing to do with the morals of the action which brought the trait about.  I tried to use homosexuality as an example, but let's go a different direction and pick something completely random and obviously hypothetical, like say, I dunno, sewing.  If statistically people who were abused have an increased tendency to sew, does this then make sewing immoral?  According to your logic it would, according to me there is no connection.

No, not all. Most. As in, the larger percentage, just like the larger percentage of prostitutes seem to be forced into the business, and suffer from past abuse and/or mental illness.

I believe you're absolutely correct.  But for me, this doesn't change the fact that if someone wants to willingly be a prostitute, they should be able to.  It's probably true that the traditional employer / employee relationship, when applied to prostitution, ends up becoming something like slavery.  And you can also argue that being financially compelled to take such an option, if it exists, is basically like "being forced into the business."  But then again, while keeping it illegal may help some prostitutes by discouraging them from even taking that option, it adds additional punishment to the women who *really* have no choice but to take that option.  That seems like the wrong way to handle it to me.  But I acknowledge that, according to what I've read, traditional employer / employee relationships for prostitutes are practically impossible.

Really? I thought you'd think of me of that damn Panda who's always going rabid in the debates. Oh, and I am blowing off steam. And building some, too! (Glad you're here, too.)

You can even insult me if you want, I don't mind, just so long as you're also addressing the content of my posts.  I really appreciate anyone who will do so, panda or not!

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Re: Sex Industry Discussion
« Reply #84 on: September 13, 2009, 02:36:56 am »
Damn it, I wrote a reply already, but this stupid laptop died before I could press send...


Well, that's still not entirely accurate.  Just because there is evidence that there is a biological component, doesn't mean that there can't also be a social component.  Those two things are not mutually exclusive.  The only way to prove that it is entirely biological would be to identify a gay gene, which they have most certainly not done, worms aside.  You're mostly right, but I think you want to be careful not to overstate your case.

All right then.
But how do you explain that almost all homosexuals claim to have been born that way, that they always felt that way? How can it be a social thing, if they say they've always identified as homosexual, ever since they were small children?
I'm not really debating here, since it's very offtopic, I'm mostly just curious about what you think.


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Now, now.  I didn't get mad at you when you called me "twisted."  Let's try to keep the name-calling out of this. 


Actually I called your views twisted, not you. I thought we already established that we both are going for what we think is right?

As for me calling Keaoden a bitch - while I was certainly fuming with annoyance when I wrote it, (because of him hinting at me being stupid,) it wasn't meant very seriously. It was half-playful and half shut-the-hell-up-when-pandas-are-talking.

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besides you two probably like each other outside of this thread.  (Well maybe not, what do I know.)

"Like" would be the wrong word to use. "Have spoken" is more correct. We don't know eachother.

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Yes and no.  The original point was this: that the tendency to become a prostitute is a trait brought about by abuse.  Since this abuse is immoral, your logic is that any traits caused by it are unhealthy. 

No, no no.
That wasn't what I was trying to say at all. How should I explain this...
Prostitution is, in itself, a somewhat questionable choice of carreer. Just like, say, drug dealing, human trafficing, etc. etc. Now, if some lady suddenly decided she wants to be a prostitute, then I suppose that's okay. BUT if past abuse is what made her want to be a postitute, then I think we should look into her psychological problems before allowing her to harm herself.
Am I making sense now?

In the case of homosexuality and flower sniffing, it's not questionable or harmful in any way. This is why I don't think we need to wonder whether that lady next door likes sniffing flowers because she was raped as a child, because flower-sniffing is not a bad kind of coping-method, like prostituion can be in many many cases.
I hope you understand what I'm trying to say, because I feel like you're missing my point a bit here.

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  If statistically people who were abused have an increased tendency to sew, does this then make sewing immoral?  According to your logic it would, according to me there is no connection.

That's not what my logic is saying at all. You misunderstood me, so please read above.



 
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But then again, while keeping it illegal may help some prostitutes by discouraging them from even taking that option, it adds additional punishment to the women who *really* have no choice but to take that option. 


I definietly don't think we should allow people to become prostitutes because they have no other options. Instead we should offer other, safer options.


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You can even insult me if you want, I don't mind, just so long as you're also addressing the content of my posts.  I really appreciate anyone who will do so, panda or not!

I try not to use ad hominem in debates. I will insult someone if they insult me first, tough, without really addressing what I wrote, because that pisses me off to no end.
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Re: Sex Industry Discussion
« Reply #85 on: September 13, 2009, 04:10:43 pm »
But how do you explain that almost all homosexuals claim to have been born that way, that they always felt that way? How can it be a social thing, if they say they've always identified as homosexual, ever since they were small children?

Well, based on what I've read, there are a lot of things that are determined about a person's personality during thier "formative years," the first 10 years of thier life or so.  Once these things are determined, they are pretty much set in stone.

No, no no.
That wasn't what I was trying to say at all. How should I explain this...
Prostitution is, in itself, a somewhat questionable choice of carreer. Just like, say, drug dealing, human trafficing, etc. etc. Now, if some lady suddenly decided she wants to be a prostitute, then I suppose that's okay. BUT if past abuse is what made her want to be a postitute, then I think we should look into her psychological problems before allowing her to harm herself.
Am I making sense now?

So what you're saying is, if a lady wants to be a prostitute it's okay, unless part of the reason she wants to is that she was abused.  In that case, prostitution is unhealthy for her.  Well, there's probably some truth to that.  But you want to be careful not to fall into the trap of assuming that because a woman wants to be a prostitute, she must have been abused.  I know that there are women out there who would be insulted by that idea.  Personally I think that if a woman wants to be a prostitute, it's not our place to speculate why, and even if we know she has been abused in the past, it's still not out place to stop her from doing what she wants.  People have to be allowed to make mistakes, or we don't truly have freedom.

I definietly don't think we should allow people to become prostitutes because they have no other options. Instead we should offer other, safer options.

When you say "we shouldn't allow", what you're saying is we should throw those women in jail.  So your logic is: we need to protect women from prostitution because it might harm them.  In order to protect them from harm, let's throw them in jail if they decide to be prostitutes.  Isn't jail harmful?  To me, imprisioning someone shares a lot in common with slavery.  They may even be forced to have sex in there, or maybe I've just seen too many women's prison movies.  (That's not true.  I haven't seen any.)  Well, the point I'm making is that you are just replacing one kind of harm with another.  Don't get me wrong, offering alternative options is a good idea.  But forcing lifestyle choices seems like a horrible idea.  I just can never agree with you on that, even if I think some of your points about the evils of prostitution are correct.

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Re: Sex Industry Discussion
« Reply #86 on: September 13, 2009, 04:58:35 pm »
Yes and no.  The original point was this: that the tendency to become a prostitute is a trait brought about by abuse.  Since this abuse is immoral, your logic is that any traits caused by it are unhealthy.

No, no no.
That wasn't what I was trying to say at all. How should I explain this...
Prostitution is, in itself, a somewhat questionable choice of career. Just like, say, drug dealing, human trafficking, etc. etc. Now, if some lady suddenly decided she wants to be a prostitute, then I suppose that's okay. BUT if past abuse is what made her want to be a prostitute, then I think we should look into her psychological problems before allowing her to harm herself.
Am I making sense now?

This makes sense but still with the bias against prostitution, with what you said about it being such a 'questionable' career most people are going to assume that abuse had happened to any woman that would want to pursue prostitution, much like the stigma on the porn industry has much the same bias against it. I have no doubt that it is one of those hard gray areas of modern societies, and will continue to be for a long time.

As for me calling Keaoden a bitch - while I was certainly fuming with annoyance when I wrote it, (because of him hinting at me being stupid,) it wasn't meant very seriously. It was half-playful and half shut-the-hell-up-when-pandas-are-talking.
I apologize for the that comment Razzly, I was facepalming at the way you said as if it was a definite fact, which to you it may be but me it is not.
 
besides you two probably like each other outside of this thread.  (Well maybe not, what do I know.)
I'm just going to correct this now, L, no-one likes me, its as simple at that.

L The Detective

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Re: Sex Industry Discussion
« Reply #87 on: September 13, 2009, 05:15:56 pm »
I'm just going to correct this now, L, no-one likes me, its as simple at that.

If it makes you feel any better, I do not dislike you.

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Re: Sex Industry Discussion
« Reply #88 on: September 14, 2009, 08:20:23 am »

Well, based on what I've read, there are a lot of things that are determined about a person's personality during thier "formative years," the first 10 years of thier life or so.  Once these things are determined, they are pretty much set in stone.

I don't think whom you're sexually attracted really counts as a personality trait.


Quote
So what you're saying is, if a lady wants to be a prostitute it's okay, unless part of the reason she wants to is that she was abused.  In that case, prostitution is unhealthy for her.  Well, there's probably some truth to that.  But you want to be careful not to fall into the trap of assuming that because a woman wants to be a prostitute, she must have been abused.  I know that there are women out there who would be insulted by that idea.  Personally I think that if a woman wants to be a prostitute, it's not our place to speculate why, and even if we know she has been abused in the past, it's still not out place to stop her from doing what she wants.

I'm not assuming anything, though. It's just that statistics show that the vast majority of prostitutes have, in fact, been abused.
As for your second argument; I disagree. By that logic, we have no right to speculate about why a schizophrenic wants to kill his parents and then himself, nor can we stop him. If it is to save someone, (not talking about the religious kind of "saving" here, though) yes, 'helping' them against their will is very much okay. At least I think so.


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When you say "we shouldn't allow", what you're saying is we should throw those women in jail. 


Okay, stop right there.
I'm sorry L, but the only one who's talking about jail in this debate is you. Never ever have I claimed that I want prostitutes to be thrown in jail. Haven't I made it clear that I'd much rather help them, by offering alternatives? (Jail does not count as an alternative.)

We had a similar discussion in the drug thread. Please don't associate everything I'm against with me wanting to throw everyone in jail. ^^ *Chuckles* I'm not trying to get all religious extremists thrown in jail either, am I?

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Re: Sex Industry Discussion
« Reply #89 on: September 14, 2009, 03:22:26 pm »
I don't think whom you're sexually attracted really counts as a personality trait.

I'm not sure if it's correct or not, but for the sake of discussion, it's easier just to call an aspect of your personality a "trait."  If you have a better word, let me know.

I'm not assuming anything, though. It's just that statistics show that the vast majority of prostitutes have, in fact, been abused.  As for your second argument; I disagree. By that logic, we have no right to speculate about why a schizophrenic wants to kill his parents and then himself, nor can we stop him. If it is to save someone, (not talking about the religious kind of "saving" here, though) yes, 'helping' them against their will is very much okay. At least I think so.

In terms of statistics I imagine you are correct, although you may be overstating with "vast" majority.  However on an individual basis, there is no way to apply this information without making assumptions about a woman's past.

A schizophrenic is a bad example, because his past has nothing to do with why we'd be stopping him.  It's the unpredictability and potential harm of his actions in the present, based on his state of mind in the present.  Also, in the case of schizophrenic we are stopping him from hurting others, in the case of prostitutes remember that the original point is that prostitution is unhealthy for the prostitute herself, big difference between stopping someone from hurting others and hurting themselves.

Okay, stop right there.
I'm sorry L, but the only one who's talking about jail in this debate is you. Never ever have I claimed that I want prostitutes to be thrown in jail. Haven't I made it clear that I'd much rather help them, by offering alternatives? (Jail does not count as an alternative.)

Perhaps your language was misleading, then.  When you said *we shouldn't allow* them to be prostitutes, I assumed you were talking about criminalizing prostitution.  If something is criminalized, this implies punishment, either through fines or jailtime.  If this is not what you meant, would you mind clarifying?  What exactly did you mean by "we shouldn't allow" them to be prostitutes?  If you simply mean that the act of prostitution should be legal but procuring should be illegal, well suddenly we agree and that would be nice.  I suspect that's not what you meant, but you never know.