Author Topic: Sex Industry Discussion  (Read 23991 times)

Selan

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Re: Sex Industry Discussion
« Reply #30 on: August 30, 2009, 08:04:22 am »
Where i come from, prostitution is legal.
Do you mind if I ask what country you live in?
I'm from Holland 

The world of prostitution is shady and filled with crime, illegal or not it doesn't make a difference.The only difference it makes is that the women that work as prostitutes legaly have the same rights as any other person that has a job for a living. (healthcare, payment when sick, unemployment insurance etc etc)

So, your argument is that you believe that a business that deals in sex is intrisically "filled with crime."  Obviously you base this on your observations, but let's get philosophical for a moment: what is it about sex and people that you believe makes this so? 

It's not just about sex and people, although... If i have to be truly honest and you won't use against me in a discussion here or in any other thread i have issues with that as well..
I believe that the world of prostitution is filled with people that do drugs, sell drugs, have weapons, use and abuse women, and are (don't know the word for it) dealers in humans. Like.. they sell and buy humans. I'm not saying every place where there is prostitution does that. But a lot of them do. And yes.. also in Holland where it is legal.

And a separate question, have you ever observed or heard about prostitution that wasn't filled with crime? 

No i haven't all my experiences with prostitution comes from victims i have met in real life, sleazy colleagues that go there (all heartless and sexists bastards imo) and documentairies i have seen on tv.

In your blurb about "prostitution facts," I notice that it says underneath one of them: "Men and Transgender people in 5 different countries." 

I've noticed that to, and yes indeed those aren't really representative countries.. BUT! Aren't there more countries like that then there are countries like Holland?

You seem to be saying that prostitutes will be treated badly even if prostitution is legal; that just doesn't make sense to me.  It seems to me that the problem has nothing to do with prostitution and everything to do with lack of regulation and law enforcement in those places where prostitutes are mistreated.

I know.. but this is from experience...Prostitution has been legal here since 2000 and the ladies i know to be ex prostitues and have bad experiences have gotten these after 2000.
Of course things have gotten better, but nobody actualy cares about a whore doing drugs and getting beaten up by a client now do they? Because for most people it's just a waste of fresh air



Here are some results from a study about prostitution in holland in 1999 (back then it was condoned not legal) conducted by the Nisso group:
Rutgers Nisso Groep, the Dutch Expert Centre on Sexuality, dedicates itself to promoting sexual and reproductive health, both in the Netherlands and in other countries. Clear, reliable information on sexuality is important in this respect. Rutgers Nisso Groep contributes to the improvement of education, prevention, counselling and policy by gathering and disseminating knowledge.

There are 30.000 women working in prostitution
From those 30.000 women there are 1500 underage girls <18
The youngest girl they have found so far was 13 years old
According to the study 79% was pressured to be in prostitution

About 25% of these women their first client was a relative or somebody close to them

Sexual abuse on a young age seems to be main cause for a protitute to end up in this business


 -Less then 10% works to get money for drugs
-More then 75% are foreigners
-A prostitute has an average of 4 clients a day
-Prostitutes make about the same amount of money no matter what kind of prostitution business they are in
-1 out of 4 men has had a sexual encounter with a prostitute


« Last Edit: August 30, 2009, 08:44:53 am by Selan »

Hans

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Re: Sex Industry Discussion
« Reply #31 on: September 01, 2009, 02:01:43 am »
Prostitution is legal here in Germany, and I prefer it that way. Becuse even if prostitution was illegal, there would be prostitution and a prostitute has a very hard time getting legal protection, (police not pimp) if being a prostitute is illegal.
What I know about prostitution is mainly from blogs like (both in german): http://streetgirl.twoday.net/ and http://venusreport.com/ . Both writers were not forced into prostitution.

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Re: Sex Industry Discussion
« Reply #32 on: September 01, 2009, 12:25:49 pm »
I belive it's a myth because there is something undeniably unhealthy in anyone who can justify to themselves that it's ok to use any form of power to gain access to another individual's physical beeing. Regardless if that power takes the form of money or cohersion or other means.

I agree with you, except I would think your reasoning would lead you to the opposite conclusion.  By making prositution illegal, the government is exercising direct control over an individual's physical being, and certainly I think that seems incredibly wrong.  People should have the choice to use their bodies however they want.

It's not just about sex and people, although... If i have to be truly honest and you won't use against me in a discussion here or in any other thread i have issues with that as well..
I believe that the world of prostitution is filled with people that do drugs, sell drugs, have weapons, use and abuse women, and are (don't know the word for it) dealers in humans. Like.. they sell and buy humans. I'm not saying every place where there is prostitution does that. But a lot of them do. And yes.. also in Holland where it is legal.

I won't use anything you say against you, I'm not your enemy.  I just happen to strongly disagree with you on this issue, but I bet we agree on a lot of others.  Anyway, you're probably right about all those things, but I'm just not convinced that is an inherent problem with prostitution, or even if it is I think that it is something that can be mitigated by regulations, and is the better alternative to the government just out-right telling you what you can do with your body.

I've noticed that to, and yes indeed those aren't really representative countries.. BUT! Aren't there more countries like that then there are countries like Holland?

I would imagine so.  However, the point is that the survey is selecting samples which helps to prove it's point, therefore the survey and it's results are flawed.

I know.. but this is from experience...Prostitution has been legal here since 2000 and the ladies i know to be ex prostitues and have bad experiences have gotten these after 2000.
Of course things have gotten better, but nobody actualy cares about a whore doing drugs and getting beaten up by a client now do they? Because for most people it's just a waste of fresh air

Maybe the real criticism should be with society, then.  I'm certain that in a society that is progressive enough to treat prostitution as respectable as any other job, it could be just as healthy as any other job.  Maybe we aren't quite there yet, but banning prostitution only makes things worse.  Because afterall, like any other vice, we can be certain it will happen no matter what we do, and banning it only serves to make the conditions that prostitutes have to endure worse.  So I would think that legalizing it but heavily regulating it is the way to go.

There are 30.000 women working in prostitution
From those 30.000 women there are 1500 underage girls <18
The youngest girl they have found so far was 13 years old
According to the study 79% was pressured to be in prostitution

About 25% of these women their first client was a relative or somebody close to them

Sexual abuse on a young age seems to be main cause for a protitute to end up in this business

 -Less then 10% works to get money for drugs
-More then 75% are foreigners
-A prostitute has an average of 4 clients a day
-Prostitutes make about the same amount of money no matter what kind of prostitution business they are in
-1 out of 4 men has had a sexual encounter with a prostitute

Cool, sounds like a more meaningful survey than the last one.  These statistics don't sound that bad to me... if only 1,500 are underage girls out of 30,000, that's a pretty small percent.  25% having their first client be someone close to them is also a small percentage, although I can't tell if that's a bad thing.  Sexual abuse at a young age being a potential motivating factor for getting in the business, we've talked about before, certainly though I'm sure it can't be true for all prostitutes.  The rest of the stats all seem pretty harmless or with the notable exception of "79% were pressured to get into prostitution."  Although we don't know what "pressured" means, if it is thugs physically pressuring them, that seems very bad, but if it means financial pressures, that's obviously what we'd expect, and not really a bad strike against prostitution.

« Last Edit: September 01, 2009, 12:42:58 pm by L The Detective »

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Re: Sex Industry Discussion
« Reply #33 on: September 01, 2009, 02:05:26 pm »
Well, that's the thing L, people should have the right to do whatever they wish with their own bodies, but OTHER people don't have any rights do do things with anyone elses unless expressively asked to by that specific individual, and that's where your reasoning fails utterly.

And saying 1500 young girls getting their lives destroyed isn't that bad sounds very callous to me, and frankly, I think it reeks of a really scary attitude towards the value of other peoples lives.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2009, 02:09:34 pm by Emp_Dragon »

L The Detective

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Re: Sex Industry Discussion
« Reply #34 on: September 01, 2009, 04:20:01 pm »
Well, that's the thing L, people should have the right to do whatever they wish with their own bodies, but OTHER people don't have any rights do do things with anyone elses unless expressively asked to by that specific individual, and that's where your reasoning fails utterly.

Sorry, I'm having trouble understanding you.  Could you explain again how my reasoning fails, because it sounds like the opposite to me.  You're saying others shouldnt have the right to do things to people against their will, and I agree, and that's exactly what the government does when it bans prostitution, it throws innocent women in jail against their will for a crime that amounts to using their own bodies as they wish. 

And saying 1500 young girls getting their lives destroyed isn't that bad sounds very callous to me, and frankly, I think it reeks of a really scary attitude towards the value of other peoples lives.

You're mis-characterizing what I said.  I didn't comment in any way about "young girls getting their lives destroyed," and I didn't say anything like "isn't that bad," I said it seems like a relatively small percentage.  If you agree with me that underage prostitution is a bad thing, then the fact that it is a small percentage should be seen as a good thing, unless you take the position that it is still way too many, which I agree with.  If prostitution were legal, I would want it to be strictly regulated, so that underage girls aren't doing it, but just like there are underage drug users I would assume there's always going to be underage prostitutes too.  It's hard to stop them if they really want to do it, but I think at least the government should provide ample protection from having them coerced.

Well, regardless of whether prostution is legal or not, I imagine there would be underage prostitutes.  Since it needs to be legal for you to regulate it, you should be in *favor* of legalizing prostitution if you want there to be less underage prostitutes.

So while I've said many callous things in the past, I think that would not be an example of one of them!  But don't worry, I'm sure you'll get to rightfully accuse me of some in the future.

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Re: Sex Industry Discussion
« Reply #35 on: September 02, 2009, 01:27:07 pm »
Well, that's the thing L, people should have the right to do whatever they wish with their own bodies, but OTHER people don't have any rights do do things with anyone elses unless expressively asked to by that specific individual, and that's where your reasoning fails utterly.

Sorry, I'm having trouble understanding you.  Could you explain again how my reasoning fails, because it sounds like the opposite to me.  You're saying others shouldnt have the right to do things to people against their will, and I agree, and that's exactly what the government does when it bans prostitution, it throws innocent women in jail against their will for a crime that amounts to using their own bodies as they wish. 
The first thing you miss, is that there has to be at least two sets of wills, and two different bodies for a sexual situation to occur. And those wills are more or less never on the same terms in these circumstances. The way I see it, the one who's selling isn't doing anything wrong, neither judicially (in Swedish law) nor morally, however, the buyer is commiting a felony. And so is anyone pimping the deal.

And saying 1500 young girls getting their lives destroyed isn't that bad sounds very callous to me, and frankly, I think it reeks of a really scary attitude towards the value of other peoples lives.

You're mis-characterizing what I said.  I didn't comment in any way about "young girls getting their lives destroyed," and I didn't say anything like "isn't that bad," I said it seems like a relatively small percentage.  If you agree with me that underage prostitution is a bad thing, then the fact that it is a small percentage should be seen as a good thing, unless you take the position that it is still way too many, which I agree with.  If prostitution were legal, I would want it to be strictly regulated, so that underage girls aren't doing it, but just like there are underage drug users I would assume there's always going to be underage prostitutes too.  It's hard to stop them if they really want to do it, but I think at least the government should provide ample protection from having them coerced.

Well, regardless of whether prostution is legal or not, I imagine there would be underage prostitutes.  Since it needs to be legal for you to regulate it, you should be in *favor* of legalizing prostitution if you want there to be less underage prostitutes.

So while I've said many callous things in the past, I think that would not be an example of one of them!  But don't worry, I'm sure you'll get to rightfully accuse me of some in the future.

The problem with your reasoning here is that legalizing or not doesn't change that percentage one bit in any positive direction since it's mainly dependant on what the buyers are asking for. And by legalizing prostitution in an area where it has been prohibited is more likely to INCREASE the volume of both legal and illegal markets since it sends a signal to the public that it's ok to use someone else's body for personal pleasure without regard or respect for the other part's wishes or feelings.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2009, 01:32:56 pm by Emp_Dragon »

charles

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Re: Sex Industry Discussion
« Reply #36 on: September 02, 2009, 07:37:38 pm »
This report by New Zealand Government might be useful: http://www.justice.govt.nz/policy-and-consultation/legislation/prostitution-law-review-committee/publications/plrc-report/executive-summary

New Zealand legalised prostitution in 2003 and commissioned the report to evaluate the results, which concluded in 2008.  Before that it was illegal to be, use or manage a prostitute.  I've only linked the summary but you can see the links to the detailed chapters in the side column.

A few interesting things:
Quote from: report
Research indicates that there has been some improvement in employment conditions, but this is by no means universal. Generally, brothels which had treated their workers fairly prior to the enactment of the PRA continued to do so, and those which had unfair management practices continued with them.
Quote from: report
The most significant barriers to exiting are loss of income, reluctance to lose the flexible working hours available in the sex industry, and the camaraderie and sense of belonging that some sex workers describe.
Quote from: report
Both the CSOM and CJRC reported high use of condoms throughout the industry. However, this was not necessarily due to the legal prohibition on the provision of unsafe commercial sexual services. Many said that they had always practised safe sex
Quote from: report
Around 93% of sex workers surveyed by CSOM cited money as a reason for both entering and staying in the sex industry. The most effective way to ensure people do not enter the sex industry is to help them find other means of earning money.
Quote from: report
The CSOM survey found that under age people used in prostitution made up 1.3% of the total number of sex workers surveyed. The Committee does not consider the PRA has increased under age involvement in prostitution. The Committee believes the passage of the PRA has raised awareness of the problem of under age prostitution, and that this is a positive consequence.
Quote from: report
The majority of sex workers interviewed felt that the PRA could do little about violence that occurred, though a significant minority thought that there had been an improvement since the enactment of the PRA. Of those feeling in a position to comment, the majority felt sex workers were now more likely to report incidents of violence to the Police, though willingness to carry the process through to court is less common.
Quote from: report
The Committee endorses the findings of the CSOM study that ‘the numbers of street-based sex workers have remained stable since the enactment of the PRA, with comparable numbers on the streets to estimates done prior to decriminalisation’. The CSOM survey found that the street-based sector made up 11% of the sex industry in 2006, making it by far the smallest sector.
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Re: Sex Industry Discussion
« Reply #37 on: September 03, 2009, 01:15:34 pm »
The first thing you miss, is that there has to be at least two sets of wills, and two different bodies for a sexual situation to occur. And those wills are more or less never on the same terms in these circumstances. The way I see it, the one who's selling isn't doing anything wrong, neither judicially (in Swedish law) nor morally, however, the buyer is commiting a felony. And so is anyone pimping the deal.

It's not that I miss it, it's obvious that there are "two sets of wills."  This would be true of any service, in which there is a buyer and a seller.  In the case of prostitution, they happen to be having sex, but what about a totally different case... say for example, a personal trainer.  That example also fits what you said perfectly, there are two sets of wills, two bodies.  Although the situation is not sexual, it's easy to make a case for "they are more or less never on the same terms."  So according to your logic, a personal trainer is also morally wrong and you think that should be a felony.

Well, obviously that doesn't make sense, so let's examine what you're really saying.  The only difference between the two examples is that one type of service is "sexual."  So in other words, none of the other things in your example are relevant, and we have no choice but to determine that the root of your objection is the mixing of sex and business.  That's an opinion you aren't alone on.  But you also say that it's not immoral for a prostitute to sell sex; this is a contradiction.  Logically it follows that if buying sex is immoral, selling should also be immoral, if it's really the mixing of sex and business that offends you.

So why do you hold this opinion?  I doubt there is a logical explanation, it seems likely at its root this belief is based on your emotions.  It just feels wrong to you.  That's certainly common for many people, but wanting to have laws based on your personal feelings amounts to forcing your own views on everyone else.  Does that seem fair to you?  Isn't it more relevant what the prostitute feels about the morals of prostitution, rather than what you think?  Is it really fair to force your own values onto all women everywhere?


Edit: Well, the language of your last post has me a bit confused, perhaps I am getting away from what seems to be your main point, so let me just go back and answer it.  As far as I can tell, your main point seems to be: when someone pays money for sex, that is giving them "power" over the woman, and having that kind of power is immoral.  Do I have that correct?

While in a sense that's true, remember that the exchange of money gives power to both people.  The prostitute is entering into a contract of her own free choice; the only power she loses is what she allows herself to lose.  Or depending upon how you look at it, she hasn't lost any in the first place.  I find it strange that you would see this as a situation of "the client having power over her," yet you can't see the government controlling what she can do with her own body in the same light. 
« Last Edit: September 03, 2009, 01:58:01 pm by L The Detective »

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Re: Sex Industry Discussion
« Reply #38 on: September 03, 2009, 05:04:45 pm »
Hard one to pick. As the NZ report showed, 93% of women in the industry there were in it for the money.  Now possibly thats just luxury (i.e. they could earn enough to live and get by with relative comfort doing another job, but they enter prostitution for more money), but its easily possible that many might enter it out of desperation from a troubled financial position.  They may be heavily in debt and feel forced to take money for sex to pay that off rather than loose a house or fail to show they can financially support their children, or they might be a single mother with multiple children, unable to find flexible work and unable to provide on the megre government welfare.

Of course, with that, you can argue that few people actually want to work and all jobs are simply forced labour to gain funds to live or pay off debt.  The problem is, as Selan pointed out, no matter how much you legalise it, prostitution will always be a dirty industry with much higher rates of abuse and other criminal activity.

On the one hand I like the idea of legalising prostitution, because I believe that legalising it should be able to make it better if done well and correctly. But you could never call it good and on the other hand a legal industry might seem more attractive to such desperate women who don't understand the world they're really entering. Quite possibly they could find other means to get through the financial trouble or may simply need to say goodbye to their house and even their kids for a time until they can get themselves setup right, rather than expose their home and their children to that world.
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Re: Sex Industry Discussion
« Reply #39 on: September 07, 2009, 11:38:30 pm »
Of course, with that, you can argue that few people actually want to work and all jobs are simply forced labour to gain funds to live or pay off debt.  The problem is, as Selan pointed out, no matter how much you legalise it, prostitution will always be a dirty industry with much higher rates of abuse and other criminal activity.

I'm inclined to disagree.  If we simply look at history, you are correct that it always has been, but perhaps that's due to other factors.  Maybe prostitution has always been a "dirty" industry because sex has always been seen as a "dirty" activity, and perhaps if we are able to get past that it could be as clean as any other business.  That's what I'd like to believe, anyway.  And being against prositution because it has higher rates of abuse and other criminal activity just seems wrong to me in spirit.  It's not prositituion we should be against, it's abuse and criminal activity.  Problems should be attacked directly.

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Re: Sex Industry Discussion
« Reply #40 on: September 08, 2009, 06:43:30 am »


Cool, sounds like a more meaningful survey than the last one.  These statistics don't sound that bad to me... if only 1,500 are underage girls out of 30,000, that's a pretty small percent. 



Question!

Do you honestly think that 1,500 is a small number?

It's a small percent of the total number, yes, but we're talking about 1,500 underage girls who have most probably been forced to have sex with strangers in order to survive.
And you think that's okay?

Oh, all right. Won't debate that, I think we all got your point.

This debate seems to have become some sort of girls vs. guys fight (not counting Emp and maybe someone else, who seem to be able to see outside the box. ) anyway, and continuing will just make me sexist against all these men who support human trafficking.  And who likes sexism? ;)
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Re: Sex Industry Discussion
« Reply #41 on: September 08, 2009, 09:29:53 am »
Do you honestly think that 1,500 is a small number?

It's a small percent of the total number, yes, but we're talking about 1,500 underage girls who have most probably been forced to have sex with strangers in order to survive.
And you think that's okay?

Of course not.  But I do think that prostitution between adults is absolutely okay.  This was a survey taken in Holland in 1999, when it was "condoned, not legal."  If you want there to be less underage prostitution, you should be on the side of legalizing it.  Legal prostitutes can be regulated much more easily, which means the government can exercise control over things like age requirements.  This doesn't mean there won't continue to be any illegal prostitution, but it would be much harder to exist because they would have a hard time competing with the legal ones.

If you really want less underage girls in prostitution and slavery, then you should be on my side.

This debate seems to have become some sort of girls vs. guys fight (not counting Emp and maybe someone else, who seem to be able to see outside the box. ) anyway, and continuing will just make me sexist against all these men who support human trafficking.  And who likes sexism? ;)

I have spoken to a few women before who agree with what I'm saying, and I'd like to think there are more.  But still, I don't think it makes a big difference whether you're a woman or a man... none of us here in these forums are prostitutes, so what we're doing is deciding  about the rights of other women.  I just thing it's wrong for us to force our values on other women.  If they want to be prostitutes, who are we to stop them?

So I have to disagree with you.  I think I'm the one on the pro-woman side of this issue.

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Re: Sex Industry Discussion
« Reply #42 on: September 08, 2009, 10:13:24 am »
I'd say you are delusional...

If you were truly on the constructive side of this issue, you'd actively work to eliminate the demand for sexual services instead of propagating for acceptance.

And as to your comparison with the personal trainer, it's not the same thing, one sells his/her knowledge and advice, the other is participating in a corporeal trade that's verging on, and many times crossing over into slavery.

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Re: Sex Industry Discussion
« Reply #43 on: September 08, 2009, 10:51:19 am »
I'd say you are delusional...

If you were truly on the constructive side of this issue, you'd actively work to eliminate the demand for sexual services instead of propagating for acceptance.

And as to your comparison with the personal trainer, it's not the same thing, one sells his/her knowledge and advice, the other is participating in a corporeal trade that's verging on, and many times crossing over into slavery.

I'm for more sexual freedom.  Your point of view seems to be "I want to take away women's rights to do this, because I think it's bad, so women shouldn't want to do this anyway."  This is forcing your own values onto women.

If your point is that prostitution cannot exist without becoming slavery, well then I disagree.  There are places in the world which actively prove you wrong.

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Re: Sex Industry Discussion
« Reply #44 on: September 08, 2009, 11:09:51 am »
Sexual freedom and prostitution is quite separate entities in my book.

And I never said prostitution cannot exist without slavery, just that the difference between the two concepts is a razor-sharp edge. And in practicality, one doesn't exist without the other, regardless of wether prostitution is legal or not since the demand always outmatch the availiable number of exhibitionistic and enlighted volountary prostitutes that does work out there. And there are always people with desires that can't be matched within ramifications of law regardless of the legal status of prostitution.

Edit:
My basic position is that anyone's right to something is always overruled by another one's right from the same something.
Eg. The right to smoke is overruled by present company's right to smoke-free air.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2009, 11:16:31 am by Emp_Dragon »

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Re: Sex Industry Discussion
« Reply #45 on: September 08, 2009, 11:35:24 am »
Sexual freedom and prostitution is quite separate entities in my book.

Why?

And I never said prostitution cannot exist without slavery, just that the difference between the two concepts is a razor-sharp edge. And in practicality, one doesn't exist without the other, regardless of wether prostitution is legal or not since the demand always outmatch the availiable number of exhibitionistic and enlighted volountary prostitutes that does work out there. And there are always people with desires that can't be matched within ramifications of law regardless of the legal status of prostitution.

We don't know how true this is in a progressive society, since we have very limited examples to draw from.  But the examples we do have, such as Holland and the Netherlands, I think at least show that there may be a different story from the one you're telling here.

My basic position is that anyone's right to something is always overruled by another one's right from the same something.  Eg. The right to smoke is overruled by present company's right to smoke-free air.

I agree, although I would phrase it differently.  I would say that anyone should have the right to do whatever they want so long as it doesn't hurt someone else.  If secondhand smoke hurts someone, then yes a smoker's rights should be curbed to protect the rights of an innocent bystander.  But as far as I can see, this does not apply to consentual prostitution.  A person should have the right to sell sexual services if they so wish, and a buyer should have the right to pay for thier services.  If both adult parties are participating of thier own free will, then there is no innocent bystander to be protected.  Just two adults doing what they want to do with thier lives.  Your position seems to be: stop them from doing what they want to do because I believe it's bad for them.  How is that not interfereing with sexual freedom?

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Re: Sex Industry Discussion
« Reply #46 on: September 08, 2009, 11:43:21 am »
Please stop trying to read between the lines of what I write and put words in my mouth, you'll only get it wrong because there isn't anything there to read in the first place.

What I'm trying to say is that even if there are benign cases of prostitution where nothing hurts anyone, they will just have to suffer the infringement on their liberties as long as there are those who do get hurt. And that's only going to change when(if) we get a completely equal and civilized society.
And in the smoking case, hurt isn't nessessary, inconvinence is sufficient to overrule the right to smoke.

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Re: Sex Industry Discussion
« Reply #47 on: September 08, 2009, 11:51:54 am »
Please stop trying to read between the lines of what I write and put words in my mouth, you'll only get it wrong because there isn't anything there to read in the first place.

Sorry.  I'm just trying to understand your overall point.  If I misunderstand (which is very likely) then please help me out by stating it for me more clearly.

What I'm trying to say is that even if there are benign cases of prostitution where nothing hurts anyone, they will just have to suffer the infringement on their liberties as long as there are those who do get hurt.

I guess I don't understand what you're trying to say here.

And in the smoking case, hurt isn't nessessary, inconvinence is sufficient to overrule the right to smoke.

I disagree but I won't belabor this point.

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Re: Sex Industry Discussion
« Reply #48 on: September 08, 2009, 12:09:05 pm »
What I'm trying to say is that to eliminate sexual slavery and forced prostitution, other forms can't be allowed either until the situation is ammended once and for all.
And I do think it's a good idea to criminalize the buyer and any middle hand but not the seller, because it means that someone who do escape from forced prostitution won't be risking anything by going to the police, and thus the chance to get at the creeps increases.

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Re: Sex Industry Discussion
« Reply #49 on: September 08, 2009, 12:48:02 pm »
What I'm trying to say is that to eliminate sexual slavery and forced prostitution, other forms can't be allowed either until the situation is ammended once and for all.

Even if legalizing prositution helps to fight against slavery?

And I do think it's a good idea to criminalize the buyer and any middle hand but not the seller, because it means that someone who do escape from forced prostitution won't be risking anything by going to the police, and thus the chance to get at the creeps increases.

I don't think there's anything morally wrong with going to a willing prostitute, so I don't see them as "creeps," anymore than I see the women as "dirty."

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Re: Sex Industry Discussion
« Reply #50 on: September 08, 2009, 12:57:37 pm »
But legalizing prostitution won't help fighting slavery since, as you said in the drug topic, as long as there is a demand there will appear a supply.

I see them as creeps, because the buyers enable the slavery even when they go to a willing prostitute, it's all about attitudes. And the buyer is pathetic more than a creep, the pimp however, is nothing more than a pest to be eradicated.

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Re: Sex Industry Discussion
« Reply #51 on: September 08, 2009, 01:09:21 pm »
But legalizing prostitution won't help fighting slavery since, as you said in the drug topic, as long as there is a demand there will appear a supply.

No, it will.  With prostitution illegal, the government has no ability to protect prostitutes from all the bad things because prostitutes can't go to the police.  When a prostitute in the US is beaten by her pimp, there's nothing she can do about it.  Legalized prostitution can be regulated, which means the government has some level of control over work conditions, and can actually enforce laws which protect prostitutes.  Now all of a sudden a prostitute who is forced to work against her will can go to the police.

Now as you say, there may still be demand for illegal activities like underage prostitutes and slavery, etc, but these types of things would now have to compete with legal slavery.  That means they're going to make a lot less money, which in turn means the illegal activities become more of a niche market.

So yes, if you want to fight things like underage prostitution and slavery, the most *direct* way of doing that is to legalize and then regulate it.  This is just a fact.  I really hope you'll consider this.

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Re: Sex Industry Discussion
« Reply #52 on: September 08, 2009, 01:19:48 pm »
It really isn't that simple, and it isn't either or. As I have already stated at least four times previously, you can legalize the sale without legalizing the purchase, and thus you can both enforce laws to protect prostitutes in the same way as any other civilian subjected to violent crime or kidnapping.
And that without legalizing the purchase which would be the same as condoning the act across the board.

So no I do not and will never considder a full legalization of prostitution until there are NO forced labour in any aspect of the sex industry world wide.

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Re: Sex Industry Discussion
« Reply #53 on: September 08, 2009, 01:28:18 pm »
It really isn't that simple, and it isn't either or. As I have already stated at least four times previously, you can legalize the sale without legalizing the purchase, and thus you can both enforce laws to protect prostitutes in the same way as any other civilian subjected to violent crime or kidnapping.
And that without legalizing the purchase which would be the same as condoning the act across the board.

Well I think that willing, adult prostitution *should* be condoned.  But that's just me.  Yes you have said that four times, and I don't agree with that policy for a multitude of reasons, but on the other hand I admit that it's a better system than what we have in the US right now.  It's true that it would be easier for prostitutes to go to the police if there's no danger of them being arrested.  It's hard for me to support an idea which is so blatantly hypocritical, though.

So no I do not and will never considder a full legalization of prostitution until there are NO forced labour in any aspect of the sex industry world wide.

Seems unreasonable to me.  I hope you give that idea a little more thought.

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Re: Sex Industry Discussion
« Reply #54 on: September 08, 2009, 01:31:53 pm »
Just how is it hypocritical? As a means to the outspoken goal of changing attitudes to prostitution I'd say it's almost perfect.

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Re: Sex Industry Discussion
« Reply #55 on: September 08, 2009, 01:42:34 pm »
Just how is it hypocritical? As a means to the outspoken goal of changing attitudes to prostitution I'd say it's almost perfect.

Maybe hypocritical isn't the right word.  It just makes no sense that it would be illegal to buy something that is legal to sell.  I do think it is a step in the right direction, though.

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Re: Sex Industry Discussion
« Reply #56 on: September 08, 2009, 10:59:02 pm »


Of course not.  But I do think that prostitution between adults is absolutely okay. 

If you really want less underage girls in prostitution and slavery, then you should be on my side.

If you read my earlier posts you will notice that I never mentioned wanting to make prostitution illegal. In that sense, I'm "on your side."
The problem I see with all this, is that most prostitutes, even those who do it willingly, have a history of emotional/sexual/physical abuse.
This makes me wonder, what their reason for selling themselves is. Most likely, having researched this, it's a self-destructive thing. Question is, is this a good thing? Having women sell themselves because of past abuse? There is a connection here, you can't deny that.
Read my earlier posts where I talk about classy prostitution and escorts, those sum my thoughts up pretty well.

It's this abuse-prostitution and human trafficing thing I have a problem with. There is nothing good about that and it definietly needs to be fought against. Just legalizing prostitution and leaving it be will not erase the underage slaves and forced women. Selan has already explained and showed this to you.

Quote
I have spoken to a few women before who agree with what I'm saying, and I'd like to think there are more.  But still, I don't think it makes a big difference whether you're a woman or a man... none of us here in these forums are prostitutes, so what we're doing is deciding  about the rights of other women.  I just thing it's wrong for us to force our values on other women.  If they want to be prostitutes, who are we to stop them?

So I have to disagree with you.  I think I'm the one on the pro-woman side of this issue.

And I've spoken to a woman who thought that women are all stupid, slow, and useless, and that males are naturally superior. What's your point?
In this thread, it seems very clear that it's mainly guys versus girls.

Also, society is about dictating other people's rights. It's done all the time. The world would not work if the leaders just let everyone do whatever they wanted all the time. Humans need rules and structure, rights and limits. Limiting women's ability to harm themselves by selling themselves for sex is not, in my opinion, a bad thing.
I'm not for it either, of course, because I agree with you about bodily domain. But, once again, it's the underlying stuff that I'm worried about. A woman does not wake up one morning and think "I think I'll start selling my body to fat old sweaty men because I think it's fun!" just like she doesn't wake up one morning and think "I'm gonna go have an abortion today, because it's fun!" There is an underlying issue here, and I think those should be focused on before we go allowing this human objectifying to go further.
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Re: Sex Industry Discussion
« Reply #57 on: September 09, 2009, 04:06:27 am »
And yet you think that illegalizing abortion is a horrible miscarge (pun intended  :P) of human rights?

I think that the government should not be able tell you what to do with your own body.

And everyone is missing the most important point here, and that's that I like boobs.
Hookers have boobs. Hense, I like hookers. I think this concept is pretty simple.  :P

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Re: Sex Industry Discussion
« Reply #58 on: September 09, 2009, 06:26:20 am »
Did you read anything I wrote at all?

Read my arguments before you start poking me.
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Re: Sex Industry Discussion
« Reply #59 on: September 09, 2009, 07:57:26 am »

Also, society is about dictating other people's rights. It's done all the time. The world would not work if the leaders just let everyone do whatever they wanted all the time. Humans need rules and structure, rights and limits. Limiting women's ability to harm themselves by selling themselves for sex is not, in my opinion, a bad thing.
I'm not for it either, of course, because I agree with you about bodily domain. But, once again, it's the underlying stuff that I'm worried about. A woman does not wake up one morning and think "I think I'll start selling my body to fat old sweaty men because I think it's fun!" just like she doesn't wake up one morning and think "I'm gonna go have an abortion today, because it's fun!" There is an underlying issue here, and I think those should be focused on before we go allowing this human objectifying to go further.


Yeah, this.

I suppose if respectable brothels denied service to more uncouth clients, those clients would find some other place, i.e. a place where the hookers aren't treated well, but in all outward appearances seems to be a legitimate operation.

Unless you have police doing random investigations on all such businesses to see what's going on. I can't imagine that would fly very well.