Author Topic: Sex Industry Discussion  (Read 24000 times)

CrystalDragonSpaceMarine

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Sex Industry Discussion
« on: August 24, 2009, 05:41:35 pm »
Okay, the drug discussion spurred on another question in my mind:

Should prostitution be legal? Right now, only some counties in Nevada and Rhode Island permit prostitution (although Rhode Island only makes it legal to exchange sex for money, you can't run a brothel, be a pimp, streetwalk, etc.)

If it was, of course, it would be regulated and the like. Mandatory health tests, etc.

I think it should be. I was recently watching one of those cop shows where they have the police chick dressed as a hooker waiting to be picked up by a guy, then they nab him for soliciting hookers.
Officer: You know why we're taking you in?
Dude: I guess, cuz I tried to pick up a girl.
It seemed kind of silly to me. Couldn't they be doing something better than this? Something more helpful than picking up guys that are just trying to get laid?

I don't think it would be harmful to society, especially if you divorce it from the sleazy criminal atmosphere and keep it under control like any other service.

What are your thoughts?

charles

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Re: Sex Industry Discussion
« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2009, 11:19:00 pm »
I think it's important HOW you legalise it as well.  I saw a program some time ago where some women's association in England decided it should be legalised (yes this was a women's association of mostly little old ladies and THEY thought it should be legalised *shrug*).  The association sent three of their members to various countries to see how it was run and managed in places where it was legalised to work out which was the best system to allow.

They checked out the brothels, pimps and other systems in both the US, Holland and other joints but the one they liked in the end was one of the systems in New Zealand.  New Zealand laws pretty much allow for all models of prostitution but this model they investigated involved a collective of working women, working together in a venue.

The idea was that they were all working girls and any non-workers were employees of the collective, such as a security guard or secretary but no-one who had a say in the business could be someone who wasn't "working".  I guess you could liken it to a group of apparements paying a set amount into a body-corporate account which was used to pay for all the expenses of employees, venue and other stuff.

If it was legalised, what systems or restrictions do people think should be put in place (besides the obvious ones for underage workers)
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RoninAngel

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Re: Sex Industry Discussion
« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2009, 11:48:55 pm »
i like prostitution. i think it's rad. except when it's abusive. then it's not rad. it is desidedly not rad. cuase the people don't want to really do it. so let people who really, really want to do it, and make it illegal for folks who are doing it becuase they're being forced or whatever. but how do you legislate that?  :'(
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charles

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Re: Sex Industry Discussion
« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2009, 12:35:44 am »
Obviously the three things you want to avoid are.

1. Abuse of prostitutes from a customer
2. Abuse of prostitutes from a pimp/brothel
3. Spread of sexually transmitted diseases

Prostitutes working alone face obvious dangers from customers or others who might not agree with their line of work but they are their own master and get any and all profits they make, although there could be concerns about how well they check themselves for infections and how sanitary they keep their premesis.

Pimps and brothels provide obvious safety from customers and its in both the interest of their continued business and reputation that they keep their venue sanitary and check the health of their workers.  Unfortunately there's plenty of room for abuse from the Pimp or brothel themselves as they can simply refuse the girls the opportunity to take customers if they don't like the cut they're getting or they refuse to provide free sexual favours.

Personally I like the idea of only allowing groups of working girls to run an establishment together.  They all have a vested interest in the continued business and reputation so they'll keep a strict check on hygene, etc.  They're all working girls so they have no-one to abuse and mistreat but themselves (Yes there will probably be arguments between them, etc, but it'd take a majority decision to fire someone or refuse them work).  Safety is in their own best interest, so they look out for each other or employ security.

The other option (which I don't think would ever happen for obvious reasons) is to allow only government run venues for working girls.  It would be up to the government to run everything, so they'll keep a tight hold on the rules, regulations and safety while keeping it fair for the working girls and they'll open venues wherever they believe it'll do the best to diminish illegal prostitution.
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Razzly

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Re: Sex Industry Discussion
« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2009, 01:34:51 am »
It's already been said, but.. Prostitution can be just plain dangerous.

If, like Charles said, they would keep a close eye on the girls (and guys, because obviously there should be male prostitutes/escorts available as well ) health and make sure there is no abuse (and if there is, abuser goes straight to jail.) then I suppose...

Personally I think prostitution is morally wrong, though. People are not objects and they shouldn't be selling them as if they were, especially in a world where the objectifying of persons is a rather large problem. But who am I to push my values on others? If the girl/guy wants to sell themselves for money, go for it, as long as you keep it safe and classy.

I'd actually like one of those male escorts. Not the kind you have sex with, but the kind that you can hire for an evening, who will treat you like a princess, and call you miss, and pour you your drink, and give you compliments and shoulder massages... And be like your personal date/butler! That would be nice.
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charles

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Re: Sex Industry Discussion
« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2009, 03:35:00 am »
I've always been of two minds on the morals of prostitution.

In one sense I can see how people should be able to charge for their abilities as they wish, just as a strong man might earn money in jobs that require his strength (bouncer, removalists, etc).  I can also see how what they're selling is a service and that the entire experience can be viewed as just fun, etc. Plus many more things.

But I can also see Razzly's point that it's objectifying people and demeaning the entire joy and wonder of sex.  I'm not explaining it very well, but I'd liken it to paying for a friend and comparing it to real friendship.  Although I'm left bewildered as to how to accurately explain what I mean there as well since I still agree with the existence of non-sexual Escort services. But something she said really struck me as important, and that is to not only keep it safe but keep is "Classy" which I think is somehow an important part that removes the complete objectification of the people and the process.

I don't know about other places but when I was reading the articles on prostitution in NZ I did notice that they have male prostitute collectives as well.  Actually I must admit, my perception of the Escort services is that they do seem to have the whole "Classy" thing down well.  Obviously there are exceptions but I believe the major organisations have it right.  The reason I can understand the Escort service is that I can see a good use for such things where you are attending a function or if you just want someone to take you out on the town, etc.  Sure its nice to take a friend or a partner if you have one, but sometimes I think its good to treat yourself and be a little selfish by having someone to simply go out to a classy resturant and pretty much do all the things Razzly mentioned.  I'd probably liken it to treating yourself to a massage... Pampering yourself I guess.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2009, 03:37:41 am by charles »
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Selan

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Re: Sex Industry Discussion
« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2009, 03:38:04 am »
The majority (vast majority!) Of people that work in the sex industry have a history of abuse.
A high percentage of girls that are hooker have been abused
Almost all the girls that are hooker that come from russia or poland or whatever have been lured into your country with pretty talk about a nice future and a nice job and are forced prostitutes. How do i know?
One from romania is a friend of mine.. She managed to escape from her abusive pimp. I also used to work with russian asylum seekers and i'm serious when i tell you that they get raped and beaten on the first day they arrive here. after that they are forced to prostitute themselves or else..
It's very hard to get away from that world. Sex industry by itself is a sick sick business, filled with hardeache and pain.

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Re: Sex Industry Discussion
« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2009, 04:04:53 am »
But something she said really struck me as important, and that is to not only keep it safe but keep is "Classy" which I think is somehow an important part that removes the complete objectification of the people and the process.


Yes, keeping it classy makes it 'less bad' in my head as well. You know, like the prostitute in the book "the Vampire Armand" who is portrayed as a very high-status, classy woman who people pay to see. That, or like modern Geisha's, who are escorts.

Selan is right too, though. There is a swedish movie called "Lilja Forever" that portrays the wicked side of the sex-industry very well.
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Churba

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Re: Sex Industry Discussion
« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2009, 08:08:24 am »
I'd actually like one of those male escorts. Not the kind you have sex with, but the kind that you can hire for an evening, who will treat you like a princess, and call you miss, and pour you your drink, and give you compliments and shoulder massages... And be like your personal date/butler! That would be nice.
I did precisely that, for a while. It's not as good as it sounds. Sometimes people get really pushy because they forget what kind of a service they've hired, and of course, it's all a hollow spectacle, because thanks to the exchange of money, any compliments given could very easily be discarded as "oh, he's paid to say that" even if you genuinely mean them.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2009, 08:10:19 am by Churba »

Razzly

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Re: Sex Industry Discussion
« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2009, 09:28:58 am »
I'd actually like one of those male escorts. Not the kind you have sex with, but the kind that you can hire for an evening, who will treat you like a princess, and call you miss, and pour you your drink, and give you compliments and shoulder massages... And be like your personal date/butler! That would be nice.
I did precisely that, for a while. It's not as good as it sounds. Sometimes people get really pushy because they forget what kind of a service they've hired, and of course, it's all a hollow spectacle, because thanks to the exchange of money, any compliments given could very easily be discarded as "oh, he's paid to say that" even if you genuinely mean them.

Yes, true, but sometimes... Sometimes you just need to hear a friendly word and be pampered a bit. Wether it is genuine or not. [/pathetic]
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CrystalDragonSpaceMarine

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Re: Sex Industry Discussion
« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2009, 11:47:59 am »

But I can also see Razzly's point that it's objectifying people and demeaning the entire joy and wonder of sex. 

I'd agree about that, but I'd say it's better than nothing if all you've got is cash.

Churba

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Re: Sex Industry Discussion
« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2009, 05:42:36 pm »
I'd actually like one of those male escorts. Not the kind you have sex with, but the kind that you can hire for an evening, who will treat you like a princess, and call you miss, and pour you your drink, and give you compliments and shoulder massages... And be like your personal date/butler! That would be nice.
I did precisely that, for a while. It's not as good as it sounds. Sometimes people get really pushy because they forget what kind of a service they've hired, and of course, it's all a hollow spectacle, because thanks to the exchange of money, any compliments given could very easily be discarded as "oh, he's paid to say that" even if you genuinely mean them.

Yes, true, but sometimes... Sometimes you just need to hear a friendly word and be pampered a bit. Wether it is genuine or not. [/pathetic]
I was always genuine - I wouldn't do such a disservice to my clients as to lie to them for money - that, to me, is both pathetic and horrible, discarding someone's feelings just because you're being paid. However, It always hurt me a little when people suggested I was just being nice because I was being paid, because I held my head high and proud over the fact that I never gave a compliment that I didn't genuinely belive, and I never, ever lied to a client.

charles

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Re: Sex Industry Discussion
« Reply #12 on: August 26, 2009, 08:17:23 am »
@Churba: Well, thats good to know that there's ethics in this, but it also makes sense to me that you'd only complement them on something genuine.  I think people can tell when they're being lied to about stuff like that.  But most of all I'd imagine you have to pretty much BE a nice bloke to pull off a job as a male escort, rather than simply someone who thinks they can act like one.  Heck, did arseholes get in and make it in the industry or was it genuine, nice, charismatic blokes like yourself who did well?

@Razzly: I don't think it's pathetic.  I still liken it to taking an all day pamper package from a beauty salon.  I guess you can also compare it to a happy/heart-warming movie.  Sure you know it's all actors reading a script, but you still walk away with a happy/giddy feeling and I don't think there's anything wrong with that for a night.

I think the main issues anyone using escort services is if they delude themselves into believing that it's real.  Sure they can teat themselves to one, once in a while or something, but don't fall for them and think that it's going to extend further.  The pamper package in the salon is a nice treat but thats not how every day of life really is and neither is the escort service.

On the Class thing, I think of it as something like this-
NOT CLASSY: You walk into a brothel and Big Bill greets you at the door and asks you to take a seat in a sofa then rings a bell (almost like he's ringing a dinner bell). 8 ladies walk in wearing outfits that scream skank (3 of them have obvious boob jobs) and Big Bill introduces them as Cherry, Jade, Jenny, etc then says "Pick yer girl and you'll go out back ta her room ta negotiate."

MORE CLASS: A waiter type greets you and asks "Is there anyone in particular you'd like to see tonight or do you have any prefeances sir?"  You tell him and he says "excellent sir, I recommend this lovely lady" (shows you a page displaying her photo and the information he repeats verbally "Her name is Susan Daniels, she's 24 years old, studying for an English diploma, enjoys modern jive dancing, romance literature and skiing, and plans to become a romance novelist." You pick 'Susan. "Excellent sir, please take a seat while I confirm she's available to spend the evening with you."

Granted, the second one feels a bit like your ordering a meal from a menu and I'm not sure you could fully call ANY part of the sex industry classy, but I think it holds more class in it's presentation of the ladies, like your looking for a date in a match-maker, seeing a photo of her and reading/hearing about her and her interests to spend an evening with her.  Unlike Big Bill who pretty much presented them like complete objects, called out with a bell and lined up for selection to head for her room.

@Selan:  Yeah, I'd pretty much agree with all that.  I know 3 ex-strippers (two of whome did more than strip for money) and while only one of them really had a rough child-hood I think it's at least fair to say that those with child-hood problems are more common in that industry/walk-of-life than in others.  I guess the question then becomes, not can you make the industry fully nice, but can you make it at least better by legalising it in a certain way?

I'm honestly not sure.  In one sense I can see how they can never fully stop it and if it's going on illegally, then it's occuring under the worst of conditions for those involved.  So by legalising it, your goal is to drive the shady business out with legal business which the government and authorities would have greater control and monitoring over, which SHOULD mean better conditions overall for those involved.  In the other sense, I can understand the thought that they should continue as they are and do their best to drive these operations out by force and threat, convicting those who run it, those who work it and those who facilitate it.  With that, I guess they hope that a lot of people who might have have used or worked the industry if it was legal, would be more likely to avoid it or might get out of it if they were caught once.
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Churba

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Re: Sex Industry Discussion
« Reply #13 on: August 26, 2009, 08:40:42 am »
@Churba: Well, thats good to know that there's ethics in this, but it also makes sense to me that you'd only complement them on something genuine.  I think people can tell when they're being lied to about stuff like that.  But most of all I'd imagine you have to pretty much BE a nice bloke to pull off a job as a male escort, rather than simply someone who thinks they can act like one.  Heck, did arseholes get in and make it in the industry or was it genuine, nice, charismatic blokes like yourself who did well?
Oh, plenty of them, but they either tended to be ruthless enough to make it into management, or tended to get dropped to the seedier companies where they were pretty much expected to have sex with the client, with very little precursory anything.

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Re: Sex Industry Discussion
« Reply #14 on: August 26, 2009, 02:46:56 pm »
Here in sweden, the selling is completely legal since a few years back, but buying isn't, and beeing a middle man/pimp is also illegal.

CrystalDragonSpaceMarine

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Re: Sex Industry Discussion
« Reply #15 on: August 26, 2009, 03:55:10 pm »
The majority (vast majority!) Of people that work in the sex industry have a history of abuse.
A high percentage of girls that are hooker have been abused
Almost all the girls that are hooker that come from russia or poland or whatever have been lured into your country with pretty talk about a nice future and a nice job and are forced prostitutes. How do i know?
One from romania is a friend of mine.. She managed to escape from her abusive pimp. I also used to work with russian asylum seekers and i'm serious when i tell you that they get raped and beaten on the first day they arrive here. after that they are forced to prostitute themselves or else..
It's very hard to get away from that world. Sex industry by itself is a sick sick business, filled with hardeache and pain.

I just remembered I wanted to comment on this...

It's seems this is the crux of the issue. When you legitimize this industry, can you ever make it "okay"?

You could say, "Well, as long as there's people messed up enough to work in the sex industry, we'll have employees for it!"

But who would really choose to work in having sex with strangers (and possibly undesirable strangers) when they have other options?

So I guess we'll just have to invent sex androids.

RoninAngel

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Re: Sex Industry Discussion
« Reply #16 on: August 28, 2009, 03:52:51 am »
Lots of people.
Some folks just really like sex.
I'm serious. You'd be surprised. Some folks would rather have sex with someone they aren't attracted to then nobody at all.
I'm mostly talking about gay men here, becuase that's what I know, but it's true. Some folks just really, really like sex.
And for some folks, it's all they're good at.
Others see it as kind of a mission of mercy: poor pathetic rich men (and some cases women) can't get dates, so they feel sorry for them, and they're the only ones who can offer them succor. They're actually have a legitement version of this, it's called a "sexual surogate". It it's way older then the psychology profession, however. This goes double for people with dissabilities. It sucks, but  if your a parapalegic, you'd better be charming. And if that fails, you'd better be rich.
Some folks just hate the idea of getting a real job.
Some are just sociopaths who don't work with the same morality that the rest of us do; they don't feel the guilt or shame that is usually associated with sleeping with strangers.
I don't think this last one is the norm though. It takes all kinds. Most, I think, can just justify it to themselves somehow. And why shouldn't they? Prostitution itself  is older then the Bible, older then the human race. Do these folks really have anything to be ashamed of? Just becuase you may think their profession is undesireable doesn't mean they don't provide a very usefull service to society. Religion has muddled things to the point where most if not all become prostitutes becuase they're forced to do so or becuase they have no other options. But the exceptions are out there, I think they're kind of cool. I kind of find the idea that if I ever get hard up enough, there are women who I can pay to be nice to me. Or have sex with me. Same thing.  :-\
I believe that there are just as many different kinds of people who are forced prostitutes as volentary ones.
 
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Selan

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Re: Sex Industry Discussion
« Reply #17 on: August 28, 2009, 04:02:57 am »
Here are some facts about prostitutes, and what i have said about abusive pasts etc.
The dark side:


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Re: Sex Industry Discussion
« Reply #18 on: August 28, 2009, 04:32:41 am »
It's called critical thinking, dear. I am not about to conceed my argument becuase you varnesh some seeming propaganda, presented format of the back of a milk carton. No offense to you, but that would make me a moron.  ::)
Have you actually met a prositute that wasn't forced into it? Who did your study? What is their agenda? What is their survey population? How do they define "prostitute"? Who is their target audience?

I am not claiming that all those facts are not legitement, but blerbs like that can often obscure the truth. Remember that prostitution is criminalized, so that you would only get the prostututes who were arrested or that required services from nonprofits. Many such are streetwalkers or press-ganged foriengers arrested in stings. I doubt that you would find suchlike in brothels or selling there wares on the internet, as the successful ones don't really get arrested and don't need help. It may be in a digestible form, but it may also be very misleading.
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Razzly

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Re: Sex Industry Discussion
« Reply #19 on: August 28, 2009, 06:15:16 am »
Ronin:Critical thinking is a good thing, but you can't just close your eyes and pretend that these facts are all false, just because you think prostitution is a good idea. Selan has obviously done very much research on this. How much have you done?
The fact that there are a few succesful and happy prostitutes does not change the fact that the vast majority are abused and miserable.
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Re: Sex Industry Discussion
« Reply #20 on: August 28, 2009, 07:15:16 am »
you can't just close your eyes and pretend that these facts are all false, just because you think prostitution is a good idea.

But you also have to be careful not to confuse the "implementation" of the idea with the idea itself. (if that makes sense). Given what Selan has presented it shows the prostitution is implemented by a lot of really nasty people who just dont care about anything but getting money at someone elses expense.

If you took the unwilling out of the equation for the above statistics what would the result be then? What if you took numbers for just the willing, cared for and protected (if such exists)?

Think of the facts and what Ronin said as you walking into a sweat shop full of forced child labour and deciding that all factory working is bad and evil. Unfortunately the prostitution "industry" is probably 90% sweat shops and 10% Selans Cookie factory (for example).

The question is is it possible to get to this Utopia of prostitution? If so is it still a good idea in this case?

Disclaimer: I'm not saying it is good or bad here, more saying it seems bad because of all the arseholes forcing others into it and treating them like shit. If we took them all away would it be good or bad still?

Razzly

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Re: Sex Industry Discussion
« Reply #21 on: August 28, 2009, 07:18:22 am »
you can't just close your eyes and pretend that these facts are all false, just because you think prostitution is a good idea.

But you also have to be careful not to confuse the "implementation" of the idea with the idea itself. (if that makes sense). Given what Selan has presented it shows the prostitution is implemented by a lot of really nasty people who just dont care about anything but getting money at someone elses expense.

If you took the unwilling out of the equation for the above statistics what would the result be then? What if you took numbers for just the willing, cared for and protected (if such exists)?


Yes, you're right and I'm aware of that. My personal opinion is that prostitution is morally wrong anyway, so I wouldn't really like it even if only willing people worked. (But like I stated above, I wouldn't actively work against it either, if only willing people worked. Though one has to question WHY someone would want to be a prostitute. If you look at Selan's facts, you see that MANY have been abused as a child. Not good, willing or not.)
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CrystalDragonSpaceMarine

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Re: Sex Industry Discussion
« Reply #22 on: August 28, 2009, 11:23:09 am »
I also note that I find it unlikely that "good, caring people" would be in charge of a prostitution business.

If I was a pimp, sure, I'd treat my girls with kindness and respect.

But I wouldn't be one in the first place, because of the negative image.


Despite my opinion that it should be legal, I think the land of stress-free, emotional-turmoil-free, respectable and happy brothels run by pimps with hearts of gold is very much a thing of a certain kind of speculative fiction, and will remain so.

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Re: Sex Industry Discussion
« Reply #23 on: August 28, 2009, 03:22:13 pm »
It's called critical thinking, dear.
Have you actually met a prositute that wasn't forced into it? Who did your study? What is their agenda? What is their survey population? How do they define "prostitute"? Who is their target audience?

Please don't call me dear.

I know what you are saying, i believe the survey was taken by somebody that had a neutral stance and basicly interviewed prostitutes and these are the results.

I have never met an ex-prostitute that wasn't forced unfortunatly. I know 4 women that have been lured into my country with false promises of a great future and a career. As soon as they got here the where taken to some backplace where they where raped several times and mentaly broken. After that they where forced to prostitute, if they didn't listen their families would be murdered and they would be imprisoned because they where illigal immigrants. (and the girls believed this)
I know that there are prostitutes that like their job and enjoy the payment. But that percentage is by far outweighed by the girls that are in severe mental distress and are depressed and unhappy.
Fact is.. That if you go to a prostitute there is a very big chance that she has been raped or abused in her past. And every day she puts her life at risk and faces chance of rape end being beaten by a customer.
And yes, a prostitute can be raped even when she is on duty.



L The Detective

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Re: Sex Industry Discussion
« Reply #24 on: August 28, 2009, 04:01:34 pm »
Here are some facts about prostitutes, and what i have said about abusive pasts etc.
The dark side:

This is misleading.  The reason why prostitution is run by bad people is the same reason why the drug market is run by bad people.  Because it's illegal.  When something is a black market, it means that naturally the people who run it will be the criminal type.  It also means that conditions are going to be bad for all those involved.

Make no mistake.  It is possible for prostitution to be a professionally run, healthy business for all those involved.  In certain parts of the world, it is.  And everyone is different; although some people might find the lifestyle of a prostitute to be "unhealthy," there are others to whom it is a natural and healthy profession.  The issue here is should the government decide what is healthy for an individual; it absolutely shouldn't.  As far as I'm concerned, criminalizing prostitution is absolutely immoral.

Selan

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Re: Sex Industry Discussion
« Reply #25 on: August 28, 2009, 04:17:32 pm »
This is misleading.  The reason why prostitution is run by bad people is the same reason why the drug market is run by bad people.  Because it's illegal. 

Where i come from, prostitution is legal.

What i am trying to say is that the majority of the prostitutes have had a bad childhood. Wich made their view about sex and sexual relations with men warped.
Wether you like it or not, it's a fact that the vast majority of prostitutes didn't have a normal upbringing and have been exposed to rape and violence from a very young age.

The world of prostitution is shady and filled with crime, illegal or not it doesn't make a difference.
The only difference it makes is that the women that work as prostitutes legaly have the same rights as any other person that has a job for a living. (healthcare, payment when sick, unemployment insurance etc etc)


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Re: Sex Industry Discussion
« Reply #26 on: August 28, 2009, 09:00:13 pm »
Here are some facts about prostitutes, and what i have said about abusive pasts etc.
The dark side:

This is misleading.  The reason why prostitution is run by bad people is the same reason why the drug market is run by bad people.  Because it's illegal.  When something is a black market, it means that naturally the people who run it will be the criminal type.  It also means that conditions are going to be bad for all those involved.

Make no mistake.  It is possible for prostitution to be a professionally run, healthy business for all those involved.  In certain parts of the world, it is.  And everyone is different; although some people might find the lifestyle of a prostitute to be "unhealthy," there are others to whom it is a natural and healthy profession.  The issue here is should the government decide what is healthy for an individual; it absolutely shouldn't.  As far as I'm concerned, criminalizing prostitution is absolutely immoral.

I think the motivation for banning prostitution isn't so much "it's unhealthy" as "it's not a good look" which is a holdover of older moral systems. And then these things build up over the years to where I suppose no one really cares enough to go through all the hard work of making it legal and convincing the public that it's a good idea (and personally, I don't blame them for this).

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Re: Sex Industry Discussion
« Reply #27 on: August 29, 2009, 12:40:34 am »
And still the myth of the 'happy whore' lives on and thrives...

L The Detective

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Re: Sex Industry Discussion
« Reply #28 on: August 30, 2009, 12:13:05 am »
Where i come from, prostitution is legal.

Do you mind if I ask what country you live in?  I'd be interested in hearing more about prostitution there if you'd care to talk about it.

Wether you like it or not, it's a fact that the vast majority of prostitutes didn't have a normal upbringing and have been exposed to rape and violence from a very young age.

I've heard that before too.  As far as I know, you're probably right about that.  I've also heard the same point made about homosexuality; that the majority of homosexuals are that way because of abuse.  Now, I have no idea how much truth there is to that, but supposing it were true, that doesn't really say anything about the morality of being a homosexual in and of itself, and I'd say the exact same thing about prostitution.  I'd say that what formed you into being the sort of person who would go down that road, and the road itself are two separate issues.

The world of prostitution is shady and filled with crime, illegal or not it doesn't make a difference.The only difference it makes is that the women that work as prostitutes legaly have the same rights as any other person that has a job for a living. (healthcare, payment when sick, unemployment insurance etc etc)

So, your argument is that you believe that a business that deals in sex is intrisically "filled with crime."  Obviously you base this on your observations, but let's get philosophical for a moment: what is it about sex and people that you believe makes this so?  And a separate question, have you ever observed or heard about prostitution that wasn't filled with crime?  Because I have, but only in passing; I don't know a whole lot about that world, I only know what I believe about human nature.  I believe it's easily possible to have a business in sex trafficking that is as healthy and crime free as any other business can be, which is to say reasonably so.

In your blurb about "prostitution facts," I notice that it says underneath one of them: "Men and Transgender people in 5 different countries."  The countries it lists are: South Africa, Thailand, USA, Turkey, Zambia.  That stands out to me; it makes me think that there could be some self selection in the results of this survey, which makes the results questionable.  It makes it sound like the results were only taken from these 5 countries... doesn't it seem odd that they would pick those 5?  Why not the Netherlands for example, which you'd think as prostitute central would be foremost on that list.  I don't know a lot about these countries but I do know that in the USA prostitution is illegal, and I know that in Thailand prostitutes are treated brutally.  I don't know what kind of regulation Zambia, Turkey, or South Africa have, but certainly it sounds like there isn't much.  Why aren't more civilized countries represented on that list?  (Or am I completely wrong and is Zambia a very civilized and progressive society?  I admit I know next to nothing about Zambia.)

You seem to be saying that prostitutes will be treated badly even if prostitution is legal; that just doesn't make sense to me.  It seems to me that the problem has nothing to do with prostitution and everything to do with lack of regulation and law enforcement in those places where prostitutes are mistreated.

And still the myth of the 'happy whore' lives on and thrives...

But do you believe it's a myth because there is something intrinsically about sex that selling it makes a woman unhappy?  Isn't it possible, as I believe, that society isn't progressive enough to allow those women to be happy?

« Last Edit: August 30, 2009, 12:20:50 am by L The Detective »

Emp_Dragon

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Re: Sex Industry Discussion
« Reply #29 on: August 30, 2009, 03:08:33 am »
I belive it's a myth because there is something undeniably unhealthy in anyone who can justify to themselves that it's ok to use any form of power to gain access to another individual's physical beeing. Regardless if that power takes the form of money or cohersion or other means.

Thus I belive that the way prostition is regulated here in Sweden is as close to a decent sollution as there is. That is it's legal to sell, but illegal to buy.