Author Topic: Athiest Magical Realism  (Read 4657 times)

RoninAngel

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Athiest Magical Realism
« on: July 15, 2009, 01:41:38 pm »
So appently some of you consiter yourselves athiests but believe in the supernatural.

I don't think this makes any sense.

Feel free to make your case.
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Re: Athiest Magical Realism
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2009, 01:53:32 pm »
Alright, I'll reply to your arguments/questions from the End of the World-thread here. Let's see...

Souls: There is absolutely no proof that souls exist. Personalities and emotions have been proven to be the work of the brain and nothing else, and so I doubt there are souls. Don't jump to conclusions, as none of us claimed we believed in souls.

Ghosts: So why do you believe in ghosts, you ask? A ghost doesn't have to be a soul. It could just be a memory, and imprint of something left from a person long gone. Ever heard of the Poltergeist-phenomenon? It is caused, usually, by troubled teenagers who cause things to move and crash from pure energy. There's much in this world we can't explain yet, but I'd imagine ghosts to be something similar.
They are not the person, but a memory/imprint of the person. Kinf of like a footprint, you know?


Witches:
I'm going to have to correct you here. All witches most certainly do not rely on the power of a god. The witches of my culture, that weren't even called witches before the the idiocy that followed Christianity arrived, relied on -natural- powers. Natural healing with herbs and potions and the like. Of course there was talk of spirits, but a spirit is not a god, nor is it necessarily a soul.

Everything supernatural doesn't have something to do with god.
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Re: Athiest Magical Realism
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2009, 01:54:53 pm »
Ah just because I dont belong to any set religion instantly does not make me belive in the supernatural. As I have said in another thread I have seen and heard ghosts and spirits up close. I belive in a lot of things while to me any religion is pure propaganda even though i have read a lot of littature about them does not want me to go out and join them. just because the after life is associated with religion does not mean I have to belive in god in his many forms when I have seen it with my own eyes.

SEEING IS BELIVING!! and I dont see god around here. If you are not happy with this fine because i have trouble expressing myself at times.
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leana

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Re: Athiest Magical Realism
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2009, 01:58:01 pm »
yes, what's supernatural?
I believe that there are things we people are not smart enough for to understand...Like ghosts and other stuff...There is proof we have a lot of energy around us and within us, some people know how to use this in a better way then others...some even think they can heal people with their own energy...maybe they are right, maybe they are wrong....
Science might come up with a perfectly good explanation in the end...or maybe not...
I don't think we should make a big deal out of how you call yourself...

Churba

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Re: Athiest Magical Realism
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2009, 02:18:20 pm »
So appently some of you consiter yourselves athiests but believe in the supernatural.

I don't think this makes any sense.

Feel free to make your case.
I don't. I occasionally chatter to "The boss" (aka, Shouting at the sky to make myself feel better) claim that my irish blood gives me incredible luck when I know no such thing exists(Luck, not Irish blood.), and I perform little rituals before I do things, for no good reason, when I know they have little effect on anything supernatural, but instead, help me focus by calming me.

charles

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Re: Athiest Magical Realism
« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2009, 06:28:17 pm »
I guess it may not be a case of the supernatural needing a link to a God but simply the fact that if you can believe in something unproven such as ghosts and magick, etc, then why the certainty that deities do not exist despite lack of undeniable proof?

We have thousands of people across the world all claiming to have seen or experienced this or that supernatural event, but we also have thousands of people across the world claiming to experience divine intervention.

There's this talk of power all around us while others see it as a deity all around us or some level of consciousness in that power.
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CrystalDragonSpaceMarine

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Re: Athiest Magical Realism
« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2009, 09:15:29 pm »
So appently some of you consiter yourselves athiests but believe in the supernatural.

I don't think this makes any sense.

Feel free to make your case.

Well, strictly speaking "atheism" only refers to a lack of belief in "gods". Course, some of the pagan religions get fuzzy, since they don't have God with a Capital G, but may revere nature or spirits or animals or whatever in the manner of gods.

Still,  I suppose it is possible for someone to believe in the supernatural without believing in a god, as far as "evidence" goes there seems to be what I consider for trustworthy eyewitness accounts of ghosts and things than the workings of the Christian God.

And of course, the "supernatural" could just be something "science" doesn't understand yet (I use scare quotes because those terms are so dubious...many people tend to put them at odds with each other for no good reason). I personally don't see the concept of ghosts as any more supernatural than electromagnetism, save for that the former may not exist.

Alright, I'll reply to your arguments/questions from the End of the World-thread here. Let's see...

Souls: There is absolutely no proof that souls exist. Personalities and emotions have been proven to be the work of the brain and nothing else, and so I doubt there are souls. Don't jump to conclusions, as none of us claimed we believed in souls.

Souls are so ill-defined anyway. Just what is a soul, anyway?

Quote

Witches:
I'm going to have to correct you here. All witches most certainly do not rely on the power of a god. The witches of my culture, that weren't even called witches before the the idiocy that followed Christianity arrived, relied on -natural- powers. Natural healing with herbs and potions and the like. Of course there was talk of spirits, but a spirit is not a god, nor is it necessarily a soul.

Everything supernatural doesn't have something to do with god.

Funny how Christians tended to label anyone who knew something about the natural world they didn't as a "witch" or "heretic".



edit: Reading the 2012 thread, I think you were a bit out of line there RoninAngel, to criticize Selan's perceived atheism as accepting the supernatural (and indeed, generalizing all atheism as being vehemently denying the supernatural). There are many shades of atheism, some coming close to agnosticism (it's just some people would rather identify as atheist, not agnostic). Also, there's no "standard" for atheism to follow, where "oh, you believe in a little non-hardcore-logic thing, you're not a true atheist!" It's not like a Christian being hypocritical concerning their established religious doctrine, as atheism has no doctrine, and doesn't even have to be "logical". I'm sure you could be an atheist and deny basic science as much as any Christian.



further edit: Also, to address a few more things.
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Seems to me that just believing in ghosts makes somekind of a god or goddess or afterlife a foregone conclusion.

Not necessarily. Ghosts could just stick around in this world because they can't move on to oblivion (as opposed to afterlife).
Just because it's not nice doesn't mean you can't believe in it.

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I mean, you can choose to defy God, or choose not to worship them kind of like a conciencious objector in a war, but I don't think that makes you an atheist. I think that makes you an agnostic.

Technically, agnostics "don't know" or "think it can't be known". What you describe is someone who believes in God and disagrees with them. Something of an anti-Christian, or something. Course, those positions never do get labels.

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I think that denying that God (or some other big amourphous deity like thing or things) exsists and then turning around and believing in the supernatural is just dumb.

And how so? Is it automatically, "If Jesus, then Aliens"? Automaticall, "If not Jesus, then not Ghosts". Does believing in one thing mean we must believe in everything, and does disbelieving one thing mean we must disbelieve everything?

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Souls have to come from somewhere and they have to go somewhere.
Do they? Can't they come from the same place as matter? Could the Big Bang have created souls? Why can't the world just "be"? Do we really need a "first cause"?

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Witches worship deities to get their power. Ghosts stick around becuase they can't or don't go on to the afterlife. The afterlife assumes the existance of some deity or another. I didn't make this shit up.

No, but someone else might've.

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It's in books. It's in eye witness accounts.

Oh jeez, here we go.

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You can either think those books and those people are full of baloney or you can decide not to. If you have an experiance with a ghost, you can believe 1 of 2 things. 1 is that you were hallucinating. 2 is that your own experiance lends creedance to the afterlife and thence, somekind of diety or... something. anything else is a simple case of you "did not do the research."

I'll just finish by reiterating that ghosts do not automatically mean there is an afterlife or god, or that gods always have afterlives or that afterlives always have gods. You could have a god that rules a universe where people just die and fade away, or you could have a world with no god to manage things, but the dead still go to an afterlife (either they go to the same, or they might go to a heaven/hell based on some impersonal, unthinking "karma" like effect). Then there's the possibility of reincarnation.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2009, 09:42:13 pm by CrystalDragonSpaceMarine »

akashayi

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Re: Athiest Magical Realism
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2009, 03:15:33 am »
"any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science!"

dianoga

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Re: Athiest Magical Realism
« Reply #8 on: June 08, 2011, 06:25:06 pm »
"any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science!"
As akashayi said for all we know there could quite easily be a scientific explanation behind many of the Supernatural things. For all we know they could be aliens, true spirits or even mole people. Just because we can't prove or disprove its existence  doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't exist. Such as people 150 years ago would say that flight is at best tomfoolery or at worst heresy (in some religious cases) 150 years from now there could be a perfectly reasonable explanation.

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Re: Athiest Magical Realism
« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2011, 11:58:19 pm »
I don't believe in anything supernatural, Ronin.  But I think you should be careful about making blanket assumptions about what atheists believe... being an atheist simply means you lack a certain supernatural belief, not all of them.  There are some atheists who disregard all the supernatural and only believe in what can be proved... but others may have different reasons for being an atheist.  It depends on the person... everyone's different.

Churba

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Re: Athiest Magical Realism
« Reply #10 on: June 10, 2011, 05:57:46 am »
I don't believe in anything supernatural, Ronin.  But I think you should be careful about making blanket assumptions about what atheists believe... being an atheist simply means you lack a certain supernatural belief, not all of them.  There are some atheists who disregard all the supernatural and only believe in what can be proved... but others may have different reasons for being an atheist.  It depends on the person... everyone's different.
Ditto that - Thus why, if asked about my general view of the supernatural, I describe myself as an "Atheist and Skeptic" instead of just one or the other. I know a guy who is both a christian, and a skeptic, and I know atheists who believe in all sorts of Woo-Woo.

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Re: Athiest Magical Realism
« Reply #11 on: June 10, 2011, 06:10:57 pm »
Quote from: Wikipedia
Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities.[1] In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities.[2] Most inclusively, atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist.[3] Atheism is contrasted with theism,[4][5] which in its most general form is the belief that at least one deity exists.[5][6]

The term atheism originated from the Greek ἄθεος (atheos), meaning "without god", which was applied with a negative connotation to those thought to reject the gods worshipped by the larger society. With the spread of freethought, skeptical inquiry, and subsequent increase in criticism of religion, application of the term narrowed in scope. The first individuals to identify themselves as "atheist" appeared in the 18th century.[7]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism

So, technically, atheism does not have anything to do with supernatural or ghosts, souls, spooks, afterlifes, hells, heavens or similar. It is rejection of deities. Meaning, they reject gods.

Personally, being an atheist, I do not believe in the supernatural. However, I do believe there are aliens. Mostly because it would be arrogant to believe we are absolutely unique in this ridiculously massive universe. Many of the things we claim to be supernatural could well be aliens or just a natural event we have yet to explain. Some stuff is just too rare to study properly. It might even be random.

charles

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Re: Athiest Magical Realism
« Reply #12 on: June 11, 2011, 07:28:53 am »
I'm probably Agnostic but leaning towards Absurdism.

I guess if you were not to believe in the supernatural then you'd have to believe that all strange events not yet scientifically explained, have a scientific explanation that hasn't been discovered yet which does not involve any kind of unknown energies/forces with any kind of intelligence... I think thats about right.

Take the Sailing Rocks of Death valley.  They've got some pretty good scientific theories but they're yet to prove any of them and some of the best (such as the notion of ice sheets which catch more surface area and wind force) have been disproven.  There's no doubt by anyone that the rocks are moving but the means by which they move is yet to be determined, or at least verified.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2011, 07:30:55 am by charles »
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Re: Athiest Magical Realism
« Reply #13 on: June 11, 2011, 10:52:52 am »
Take the Sailing Rocks of Death valley.  They've got some pretty good scientific theories but they're yet to prove any of them and some of the best (such as the notion of ice sheets which catch more surface area and wind force) have been disproven.  There's no doubt by anyone that the rocks are moving but the means by which they move is yet to be determined, or at least verified.
Nope, we pretty much know exactly why that's happening now. Here's a good Explanation by Skeptoid's Brian Dunning.

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Re: Athiest Magical Realism
« Reply #14 on: June 11, 2011, 05:59:37 pm »
I guess if you were not to believe in the supernatural then you'd have to believe that all strange events not yet scientifically explained, have a scientific explanation that hasn't been discovered yet which does not involve any kind of unknown energies/forces with any kind of intelligence... I think thats about right.

The beginning of this is true. However, for all we know, intelligence can be the cause of these events. I know it sounds absurd, but aliens can cause them. Say all the ghosts we have seen are "aliens in cloaking devices". Now, of course, I don't believe so. However, it is just as likely as any of the other explanations. The only common factor is that we have no idea how or what these phenomenons come from.

charles

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Re: Athiest Magical Realism
« Reply #15 on: June 11, 2011, 06:18:28 pm »
Well, if it was aliens that'd be more of a biological/technological cause as opposed to some unknown energie or force (maybe I should say spiritual energy or force).  Same as if it were a human or animal doing it.  We just don't know they are doing it but once we did it'd be a phenomenon that isn't really supernatural.

I don't actually tend to categorise aliens or unknown/future/advanced technology as supernatural.  Maybe they could do supernatural things such as levitate stuff with their minds or communicate telepathically without the aid of technology, but a biological entity that originates from a planet other than Earth is just really only distinguished by that point of origin from the many other biological entities we already know to be on Earth.
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Re: Athiest Magical Realism
« Reply #16 on: September 04, 2015, 10:25:27 am »
Alright, I'll reply to your arguments/questions from the End of the World-thread here. Let's see...

Souls: There is absolutely no proof that souls exist. Personalities and emotions have been proven to be the work of the brain and nothing else, and so I doubt there are souls. Don't jump to conclusions, as none of us claimed we believed in souls.

Ghosts: So why do you believe in ghosts, you ask? A ghost doesn't have to be a soul. It could just be a memory, and imprint of something left from a person long gone. Ever heard of the Poltergeist-phenomenon? It is caused, usually, by troubled teenagers who cause things to move and crash from pure energy. There's much in this world we can't explain yet, but I'd imagine ghosts to be something similar.
They are not the person, but a memory/imprint of the person. Kind of like a footprint, you know?


Witches:
I'm going to have to correct you here. All witches most certainly do not rely on the power of a god. The witches of my culture, that weren't even called witches before the the idiocy that followed Christianity arrived, relied on -natural- powers. Natural healing with herbs and potions and the like. Of course there was talk of spirits, but a spirit is not a god, nor is it necessarily a soul.

Everything supernatural doesn't have something to do with god.

Quote
Warning: this topic has not been posted in for at least 120 days.
Unless you're sure you want to reply, please consider starting a new topic.

I'm sure I want to reply. I've just not been involved in this section before now.

Regarding souls, the typical atheist stance is that they don't exist. But this is based on a false assumption.

Quote
soul ‎(plural souls)

(religion, folklore) 1. The spirit or essence of a person usually thought to consist of one's thoughts and personality. Often believed to live on after the person's death.  [quotations ▼]
2. The spirit or essence of anything.  [quotations ▼]
3. Life, energy, vigor.  [quotations ▼]
4. (music) Soul music.
5. A person, especially as one among many.
6. An individual life.
Fifty souls were lost when the ship sank.

Forget 1-4. Souls exist because people exist. Souls exist because consciousness exists. That is, the assumption is some creepy fluffy notion tied to afterlife. Okay, so maybe you don't believe in God, or ghosts, or the other stuff. But consciousness and soul are two words for identical phenomenon. Whether you believe consciousness is in the brain or not, this is essentially what the nearby priest is describing, the ability (or lack thereof) for consciousness to persist after death.

So, you're not cool with souls, but cool with ghosts and witches? It sounds like you've traded off the notion of belief in a God for superstition. In order to use magic, one must have a soul. It's the consciousness  that allows one to exert their will on the physical plane. You don't need to believe in God for that. A ghost is a persistent consciousness.

The supernatural does in fact exist, but belief in it would make you Wiccan, not atheist (which btw, do have atheist members, as they believe in Nature, not deities). Likewise, you can have atheist leanings but the trappings or Taoism or Buddhism or even Shintoism, no problem.

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SEEING IS BELIVING!! and I dont see god around here. If you are not happy with this fine because i have trouble expressing myself at times.

I'm a pantheist. I see God everywhere.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2015, 10:33:07 am by bulmabriefs144 »
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