Author Topic: Sex roles and the double standard.  (Read 30326 times)

RoninAngel

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Sex roles and the double standard.
« on: July 06, 2009, 02:05:57 pm »
Are there things related to the treatment of different genders that you find unfair or inconvenient discuss them here!
« Last Edit: July 06, 2009, 10:55:03 pm by RoninAngel »
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CrystalDragonSpaceMarine

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Re: Sex roles and the double standard.
« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2009, 04:11:54 pm »
I think it's unfair that women can hate men all they want, but if a man hates a woman he's all of a sudden an evil chauvinist.

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Re: Sex roles and the double standard.
« Reply #2 on: July 06, 2009, 04:40:36 pm »
I think it's unfair that women can hate men all they want, but if a man hates a woman he's all of a sudden an evil chauvinist.
And By extension, how it's acceptable to portray men as whatever horrible thing you like, but if the female is less than perfect, Everyone's up in arms.

Also, I know this one has been covered to death everywhere, but how if a woman has a lot of sex, most people look at her like she's dirty or nasty, like she's doing something Wrong, but if I man does it, people think that he's a legend, that he's obviously got "the right stuff" and that he's some sort of suave, charming superman.

CrystalDragonSpaceMarine

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Re: Sex roles and the double standard.
« Reply #3 on: July 06, 2009, 04:46:25 pm »

I think it's unfair that women can hate men all they want, but if a man hates a woman he's all of a sudden an evil chauvinist.
And By extension, how it's acceptable to portray men as whatever horrible thing you like, but if the female is less than perfect, Everyone's up in arms.[/quote]

Which, frankly, should be itself insulting to women. Affirmative action means your kind is inferior and needs extra help to be worth anything.


Quote
Also, I know this one has been covered to death everywhere, but how if a woman has a lot of sex, most people look at her like she's dirty or nasty, like she's doing something Wrong, but if I man does it, people think that he's a legend, that he's obviously got "the right stuff" and that he's some sort of suave, charming superman.

Sometimes I question if this stereotype even exists. Because I've never actually encountered it.

charles

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Re: Sex roles and the double standard.
« Reply #4 on: July 06, 2009, 08:30:38 pm »
Depends on the extreme.  If the guy is really bad, then he's regarded as someone who "can't keep it in his pants"  while the girl would be seen as loose.

However in moderation I think a girl can be frivolous now a days without appearing loose, as can a man do the same.

It's a matter of if they are viewed as having no self-control over their sexual urges.

I'm sick and tired of guys only getting the geek roles.  We need more female geeks dammit!
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CrystalDragonSpaceMarine

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Re: Sex roles and the double standard.
« Reply #5 on: July 06, 2009, 08:47:15 pm »
Depends on the extreme.  If the guy is really bad, then he's regarded as someone who "can't keep it in his pants"  while the girl would be seen as loose.

It has to do with the type of person who's viewing them. A guy that sleeps around is a "stud" to his buddies...a girl that's easy might be called a "slut" by those same guys, but their viewpoint is positive and approving on her promiscuity (after all, it increases their own chance of conquest with her).

But the girls peers might call her a "slut" in a negative sense, out of a variety of reasons, and they might also think negatively of Mr. Stud as a guy who is unfaithful, can't stay to one woman, is obsessed with sex over emotions, etc.

I've met a lot of those people, but no one who would think "that guy had sex with ten thousand women, he rocks" AND "that girl slept with ten thousand guys, she's horrible".

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Re: Sex roles and the double standard.
« Reply #6 on: July 06, 2009, 08:50:28 pm »
I've met a lot of those people, but no one who would think "that guy had sex with ten thousand women, he rocks" AND "that girl slept with ten thousand guys, she's horrible".

Except I've seen just that happen in real life, several times all the same.

RoninAngel

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Re: Sex roles and the double standard.
« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2009, 10:35:43 pm »
I've met a lot of those people, but no one who would think "that guy had sex with ten thousand women, he rocks" AND "that girl slept with ten thousand guys, she's horrible".

Except I've seen just that happen in real life, several times all the same.

She's right. Possibly the reason that it is outside your experiance is becuase the most critical people to women is often other women.

As for my own issues, I have 3 words: The Rape Card.
It is a particularly soft spot for your's truly. Yes I know that's kinda vauge, but I don't want to elaborate suffice it to say it's the male equivelent of white guilt and it's the reason I didn't add anything to the rape and concentuality discussion.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2009, 10:58:52 pm by RoninAngel »
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charles

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Re: Sex roles and the double standard.
« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2009, 11:08:14 pm »
I have known a girl who was truly addicted.  She would organize lunchtime hookups with guys on the internet (a special Australian adult site).  I recall once she didn't even bother to leave the building and I happened upon her in the stairwell (others said they'd heard her in the toilets at times). I pitied her because I believe sex controlled her life.  It was an addiction to the level of detriment where she risked her job with trying to pick up some of the guys at work and with even bringing her online hookups into the building.

But then I've known another girl who, while being sexually casual, wasn't addicted.  She could put other things in her life first and sexual freedom was just an enjoyment on the side.  I've known few guys like her as well but never a guy who was really addicted to sex and getting girls... Unless you count one mate from high-school who was totally addicted to porn to the detriment of his school and life where he would stay up all night downloading and watching it.


BUT on topic, why should I be the one to dolt over my wife, buying her flowers, giving her back massages, rubbing her feet, letting her put her feet up on me, sit on my lap or lie in it?  Why can't I expect to get flowers or back massages, or have my feet rubbed?  Why is it too uncomfortable for me to put my feet up on her, sit on her lap or even lie in it when we're sitting on the couch and watching a movie?  Shouldn't guys get to be romanced?
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Razzly

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Re: Sex roles and the double standard.
« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2009, 04:34:58 am »

I've met a lot of those people, but no one who would think "that guy had sex with ten thousand women, he rocks" AND "that girl slept with ten thousand guys, she's horrible".

I've seen this happen all the time.

Last year at school, we saw a movie about a woman whose boyfriend went into a coma, and she fell in love with his doctor - who was also married.
After the movie we were to discuss the morals of the movie. One of the guys stated that: "The woman was a total slut, since she couldn't keep herself in control and went with her boyfriend's doctor."

In reply, I said: "But what about the doctor? He had a wife at home too. Shouldn't he have controlled himself as well?"

The guy's reply to this was: "But he's a MAN!"

Yeah... No double standards at all.

Oh.  A woman can punch a man, but he can't punch back.

Yes he can.
If I start a fight with a guy, he has every right to fight back. I've never met a woman who's been of the opinion that men shouldn't be allowed to hit her back. It's always the men who say they'd never hit a woman, which is sexism in itself.


BUT on topic, why should I be the one to dolt over my wife, buying her flowers, giving her back massages, rubbing her feet, letting her put her feet up on me, sit on my lap or lie in it?  Why can't I expect to get flowers or back massages, or have my feet rubbed?  Why is it too uncomfortable for me to put my feet up on her, sit on her lap or even lie in it when we're sitting on the couch and watching a movie?  Shouldn't guys get to be romanced?

Indeed. To quote Emilie Simone: "I want to buy you flowers, it's such a shame you're a boy... Because  when you are not a girl, nobody buys you flowers."  ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_1MR2XOjz4 )

But then again, I don't think many men apart from you Charles, would even -like- that. To receive flowers/have your chair pulled out for you/paying for dinner are remains of chivalry, where the belief was that women were like children and couldn't do anything themselves. They HAD to be pampered and treated like delicate flowers.

These days it's just a polite and romantic thing to do, and I've given massages to male friends many times, without them minding at all. However, there is still a tiny part in their head that tells them that receiving flowers is a feminine and somewhat weak thing. They, I've been told, feel like they'd be looked down upon and treated as 'sissies.'

I think that's kind of terrible. If so many young men wouldn't be so afraid of being "gay" or "sissies" then it would be easier to change this.
But I swear Charles, if I were your girlfriend I'd buy you three red roses every weekend, and get you a heart-shaped box of chocolates on Valentine's day.

I'd only massage your feet if you washed them first, though.  :P
« Last Edit: July 07, 2009, 04:36:34 am by Razzly »
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CrystalDragonSpaceMarine

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Re: Sex roles and the double standard.
« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2009, 09:53:22 am »


The guy's reply to this was: "But he's a MAN!"

Yeah... No double standards at all.


Oh yeah, the old "men have needs" excuse.

charles

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Re: Sex roles and the double standard.
« Reply #11 on: July 07, 2009, 11:40:43 am »
Heh, I'm a romantic.  About 7-8 months after me and the Mrs. started dating, I gave her this little chest for her birthday.  Then she realised it was locked and I told her she'd have to wait for the key.

On our 1 year anniversary we agreed to give each other some little $5 gift.  I took her out to a casino and wined and dined her. Got her back home then gave her my gift which was self-made from $5 worth of little things.  She got a tiny basket with a lid. When she opened it up there were hundreds of small hearts in the bottom and a single, small fake rose.  Wrapped around the stem of the rose was a key.  She opened the box/chest and inside it smelt of strawberries, in the box were more of the small red hearts littering the bottom and in the centre was a giant fake rose who's stem was twisted to hold it upright in the box.  The rose opened up to reveal it's self as a ring box and inside... was an engagement ring.

Am I a sap or what? *lol*  But surely men shouldn't be the only ones expected to act romantic.
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RoninAngel

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Re: Sex roles and the double standard.
« Reply #12 on: July 07, 2009, 11:46:39 am »


Oh.  A woman can punch a man, but he can't punch back.

Yes he can.
If I start a fight with a guy, he has every right to fight back. I've never met a woman who's been of the opinion that men shouldn't be allowed to hit her back. It's always the men who say they'd never hit a woman, which is sexism in itself.



Um, it's not the attacking woman he's worried about. He's worried that if he punches her like he should, he will be seen as a "woman beater" for the rest of his life. Also, it isn't becuase he doesn't see her as a threat, he often just has a personal code that says: Don't Hit Girls No Matter What.  
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Re: Sex roles and the double standard.
« Reply #13 on: July 07, 2009, 11:47:03 am »
Charles, you are so sap, that a treeman would go green with envy...

RoninAngel

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Re: Sex roles and the double standard.
« Reply #14 on: July 07, 2009, 11:58:11 am »
Heh, I'm a romantic.  About 7-8 months after me and the Mrs. started dating, I gave her this little chest for her birthday.  Then she realised it was locked and I told her she'd have to wait for the key.

On our 1 year anniversary we agreed to give each other some little $5 gift.  I took her out to a casino and wined and dined her. Got her back home then gave her my gift which was self-made from $5 worth of little things.  She got a tiny basket with a lid. When she opened it up there were hundreds of small hearts in the bottom and a single, small fake rose.  Wrapped around the stem of the rose was a key.  She opened the box/chest and inside it smelt of strawberries, in the box were more of the small red hearts littering the bottom and in the centre was a giant fake rose who's stem was twisted to hold it upright in the box.  The rose opened up to reveal it's self as a ring box and inside... was an engagement ring.

Am I a sap or what? *lol*  But surely men shouldn't be the only ones expected to act romantic.

I used to be. That all ended in 4th grade when a girl I liked was dared to give me hug at a Valentines Day party, then she made fun of the fact that I had a boner.
I didn't like her after that.
I didn't like Valentines anymore either.  :(
« Last Edit: July 07, 2009, 12:03:30 pm by RoninAngel »
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Re: Sex roles and the double standard.
« Reply #15 on: July 07, 2009, 12:01:41 pm »
Heh, I'm a romantic.  About 7-8 months after me and the Mrs. started dating, I gave her this little chest for her birthday.  Then she realised it was locked and I told her she'd have to wait for the key.

On our 1 year anniversary we agreed to give each other some little $5 gift.  I took her out to a casino and wined and dined her. Got her back home then gave her my gift which was self-made from $5 worth of little things.  She got a tiny basket with a lid. When she opened it up there were hundreds of small hearts in the bottom and a single, small fake rose.  Wrapped around the stem of the rose was a key.  She opened the box/chest and inside it smelt of strawberries, in the box were more of the small red hearts littering the bottom and in the centre was a giant fake rose who's stem was twisted to hold it upright in the box.  The rose opened up to reveal it's self as a ring box and inside... was an engagement ring.

Man you were sure you of your relationship weren't you...
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Re: Sex roles and the double standard.
« Reply #16 on: July 07, 2009, 12:11:16 pm »
was a bit like charles, I say WAS, proposed to my ex in front of every one in a shopping centre in Dundee once we got the second  ring at the top of my voice I asked her to marry me embarrased the hell out of her HEHEHEHE, bought her the first one in Russia the first time i went over turned out she was allergic to it, Damn forgot she still has that one  >:(
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Re: Sex roles and the double standard.
« Reply #17 on: July 07, 2009, 12:24:19 pm »
@Oddball: forgot she still had it or CONVENIENTLY left your ex with the ring SHE'S ALLERGIC TO? *lol* :P

@Pozf: *meh* I was young and stupid and now I'm paying for it ;D ;)  :o

@RoninAngel: and then you discovered flipside forums and learnt that boners = AWSOME
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Re: Sex roles and the double standard.
« Reply #18 on: July 07, 2009, 12:30:55 pm »
honestly forgot she had it, got the other one back, but saying that the Russian one was not cheap.
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RoninAngel

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Re: Sex roles and the double standard.
« Reply #19 on: July 07, 2009, 01:47:16 pm »
So what I was alluding to earlier was The Rape Card.

If your a slightly narotic and slightly conciencious male who likes women like myself, you can't help but think occasionally "What if the Straw Feminests are right? What if any male - female sex actually is rape? I want to have sex with women. Hmmm.  OHMYGODIMARAPIST!" Yes it's irrational. ::) But I'll tell you, with all the guilty subconsiousness floating around in there you can't help but feel a little guilty and akward and predatory around women some times. And I'll tell you when a girl want me to shut up and agree with whatever she says, all's she gotta do is pull The Rape Card. :(

And Goddamn I fucking hate it.  >:( 
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Re: Sex roles and the double standard.
« Reply #20 on: July 07, 2009, 02:39:21 pm »
@Ronin: But that "personal code" is exactly what I'm talking about. Sexism. If a man didn't think women were weaker, why would he be so reluctant to defend himself against a vicious one? And you're not a wife-beater if you hit a brawling chick back. The one who claims that is even more sexist.
As for the rape-issue... I'm sorry mate, but that sounds more like a personal issue than the fault of gender-roles.

@Charles: My goodness! To be quite honest with you, I don't think I could handle that much sappyness. I'd feel uncomfortable. But I bet your mrs loved it.

Also - boners? Good?
I suppose, at the right moment.
But I've been forcefully "hugged" by someone with a boner, and that was one of the most unpleasant and anxiety-inducing moments of my life. It was like he was saying "Feel that? I'mma hold you here and rape you in a second."
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charles

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Re: Sex roles and the double standard.
« Reply #21 on: July 07, 2009, 03:12:50 pm »
Woman assults man. Man returns fire in defence woman. Police come, woman screams she was assulted, man goes to jail 'cos no-one could imagine why a woman would start and provoke a physical fight with a guy.

@Razzly: Well, try to imagine that much sappiness after you've been dating a guy for some time and maybe it makes more sense and it wouldn't feel so full on.  Plus it was a proposal so thats always gotta be the sappiest moment in your life.  Heck, how much sappiness do you expect the man of your dreams to apply when he proposes to you?

Better yet, considering the thread, let's not be sexist.  How sappy would you be, proposing to the man (or woman if you roll that way) of your dreams?
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Re: Sex roles and the double standard.
« Reply #22 on: July 07, 2009, 03:17:48 pm »
Well, Charles...

I'm not planning to ever marry, so I haven't really thought about how I'd propose to a future man. I do think I'd do it in a cute/funny way, less than sappy, though, just because I'd feel silly with all the cheesyness. :D Ironic, considering that Titanic makes me cry.
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Re: Sex roles and the double standard.
« Reply #23 on: July 07, 2009, 03:19:29 pm »
Dont tell me what happens at the end of it...have not seen that film yet.
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charles

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Re: Sex roles and the double standard.
« Reply #24 on: July 07, 2009, 03:21:44 pm »
The main male character challenges society's way of thinking by killing the girl and riding her body to the mainland like a surfboard.
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Re: Sex roles and the double standard.
« Reply #25 on: July 07, 2009, 03:27:14 pm »
hmm does not sound like a good film then Charles
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Re: Sex roles and the double standard.
« Reply #26 on: July 07, 2009, 03:46:46 pm »
@Ronin: But that "personal code" is exactly what I'm talking about. Sexism. If a man didn't think women were weaker, why would he be so reluctant to defend himself against a vicious one? And you're not a wife-beater if you hit a brawling chick back. The one who claims that is even more sexist.
As for the rape-issue... I'm sorry mate, but that sounds more like a personal issue than the fault of gender-roles.

@Charles: My goodness! To be quite honest with you, I don't think I could handle that much sappyness. I'd feel uncomfortable. But I bet your mrs loved it.

Also - boners? Good?
I suppose, at the right moment.
But I've been forcefully "hugged" by someone with a boner, and that was one of the most unpleasant and anxiety-inducing moments of my life. It was like he was saying "Feel that? I'mma hold you here and rape you in a second."


Well it might be a personal issue, but I think more guys should be paranoid about it. I head somewhere that a large percentage of sex offenders in prision are guys who had charges pressed by their ex wives only after thier devorces. You know some of those guys are just there becuase the devorce was messy and their ex wives made up stories to get back at them. Seriously, society can make you scared of commiting rape to the point were you think you are when you're not. Not to mention that if someone makes up a story about you and it gets out, your life is over.

The girl in my story never hugged me. She saw that I had a boner and then made a nasty comment and walked away instead. Needless to say, I was sad.
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Re: Sex roles and the double standard.
« Reply #27 on: July 07, 2009, 05:22:09 pm »
@Ronin: But that "personal code" is exactly what I'm talking about. Sexism. If a man didn't think women were weaker, why would he be so reluctant to defend himself against a vicious one?

If I were to walk down a street and look at the women I doubt there'd be a single one that could take me in a contest of strength against strength and I'm not particularly heavy set. I mean I like to keep fit but I'm not some muscle bound troll. Most women are weaker than the average man, at least in the areas I've lived; the image of beauty for women to aspire to is this kinda slender thing you can snap in half with one or two good punches. The image of manliness is a reasonably broad shouldered muscular guy.

Woman attacks man, man responds to woman. Both parties claim they were acting in self defence, court believes woman, man goes to jail.

I've no moral qualms about hitting a woman. Do any act of violence often enough it's just like stepping on a bug; when it gets down to it and you really need to hit someone, man or woman, young or old, doesn’t really matter that much. You just need to get rid of the threat. But as a matter of pragmatism it's not wise to do it in most of middle class suburbia. Ironically one of the main problems a lot of girls have when they come out to play where the wild things live, I.E. outside of that middle class area, is they're used to that protection meaning something and don't realise when they've pissed on the wrong person.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2009, 05:23:49 pm by Ged »

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Re: Sex roles and the double standard.
« Reply #28 on: July 07, 2009, 07:00:21 pm »
I remember a comedy radio announcer here in australia deciding to take on a female boxer for some fun.  After discussion they set him up with a lightweight female.  She was tiny compared to him.... and she beat 9 colours of crap out of him.
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Re: Sex roles and the double standard.
« Reply #29 on: July 07, 2009, 07:20:50 pm »
They could have set him up with a lightweight male too and much the same would have happened. Just because you're stronger doesn't mean you're going to win against someone who actually knows what they're doing. When most people throw a punch they lose a lot of the power from poor body structure, bad muscle use, and misjudging the range. Boxers spend thousands of hours working out a range and a certain set of reactions that are suited to their sport, when it comes to what they do they're very good at it. It's not the entirety of fighting by any measure but it's not smart to stand there and box with one. Pick a sportsperson and put them up against your average guy in their sport and the sportsperson is going to win.