Author Topic: Rape or Consensual Sex?  (Read 30713 times)

Emp_Dragon

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Re: Rape or Consensual Sex?
« Reply #90 on: January 24, 2010, 08:52:14 am »
As I said, the age of consent in the US is ridiculously high.
In Sweden it's 15.

charles

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Re: Rape or Consensual Sex?
« Reply #91 on: February 03, 2010, 05:45:02 pm »
To an extent, the problem with teenagers is that any adult are seen to hold a certain level of authority over them which is true to an extent, even with a 16 year old.  At that age and below I can also see how an adult might be far more capable of easily manipulating or fooling a teenager into granting consent.  Make them believe its love and such.

Granted, though, there are legitimate cases where the adult is genuine.  I'm not sure about the U.S. but it is my understanding that certain concessions are made in these cases where the age gap is not so great, a relationship has existed between the individuals for some time before it became sexual or the teenager is well experienced sexually and instigated or pushed for the sex.  There needs to be a line drawn somewhere and there will always be debate about where but the line thats there has a good bit of grey in and behind it which will lead to harsher or lesser punishments (if any) depending on circumstances.

On those with mental disabilities, I believe also that there's a good amount of judgment used to determine if legitimate consent was granted or if manipulation was used by the party with unimpaired mental capacity to obtain consent.

On the topic of requiring consent from someone that you have authority over.  The real problem here is that consent may have been given but the victim can argue that it was only granted because they felt pressured to grant it.  This is the problem that exists in employee/employer situations where there COULD be an implied threat.  But usually if the case is true it's proven by multiple employees or previous employees under the employer who all claim the same.  Heck I work with a couple who got into the employee/employer relationship and are now married.
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dg86

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Re: Rape or Consensual Sex?
« Reply #92 on: May 06, 2010, 10:13:05 pm »
As I said, the age of consent in the US is ridiculously high.
In Sweden it's 15.

Ah, so Lawrence Taylor might be innocent there!  :-X

charles

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Re: Rape or Consensual Sex?
« Reply #93 on: May 07, 2010, 12:07:32 am »
Well I think it's still illegal to BUY sex in Sweden so he'd get charged on that instead.  Might be even more trouble with soliciting someone under the age of 18 for sex depending on Sweden's laws in regards to age on the prostitution front.
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Emp_Dragon

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Re: Rape or Consensual Sex?
« Reply #94 on: May 07, 2010, 08:24:09 am »
He'd only be charged on buying, and the penalties are a joke for that anyway. And, the Swedish court system doesn't use consecutive sentencing. Plus, due to a couple of prejudicating supreme court cases getting a rapist convicted has become nigh impossible due to the way the courts interpret the 'beyond reasonable doubt' clause. In effect you need a witness to a crime that by definition won't have witnesses in 9 of 10 cases, in addition to humiliation of the victim during hearings and trial, often incompetent handling by the police during the investigation and then the final injustice that a perp is likely to walk despite a less coherent and reliable story than the victim, and significant circumstantial forensic evidence when a victim reported the crime right away.

The Swedish judicial system isn't working for the people even on the few occations that the legislative power in Stockholm does.

RoninAngel

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Re: Rape or Consensual Sex?
« Reply #95 on: August 21, 2010, 12:43:20 pm »
As far as laws go, I believe rape/sexual assault should only apply when:

1) Someone forces someone else into a sexual act against their will, through physical force. Also, this should count under duress, like someone holding a gun to your head, or to someone else's.

2) Someone performs sexual acts with an unconscious person.




But I do not think it should apply to trickery/deception that doesn't involve outright blackmail. To do such is wrong, no doubt, but there is no possible way you can legislate it, as fun as it would be to live in a society where any man who promises a girl he'll stay with her and then leaves after a one-night-stand can be executed.

This is well thought out.

And yes a man can be raped by a woman. Even if he gets a boner it can still be rape.
I got 99 problems but a nymphomaniac jester girl ain't one.

CrystalDragonSpaceMarine

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Re: Rape or Consensual Sex?
« Reply #96 on: August 21, 2010, 01:57:05 pm »
It's not like arousal or orgasm are exactly things under your control anyway...so the idea that "You felt pleasure/you came from it" means you wanted it.

Kilravok

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Re: Rape or Consensual Sex?
« Reply #97 on: June 01, 2011, 11:13:43 am »
Ok...just my two pence, I hope I don't offend too many people....
Also, I haven't read every single post here, only the first few, especially the first one.


I would not consider the insanity 'get out of jail' card valid at any point, for legal and psychological reasons.
Legal: No matter if you are aware wether or not you have comitted a crime, you commited a crime. What do you think why it is of vital importance to inform yourself about the general legal situation of other countries when you go abroad for a vacation? Ignorance is no protection from consequence. This goes as well if you are just too deranged to comprehend.
Psychological: Most of those allegedly 'mad' criminals know they did wrong, even if they got some compulsive behavor disorder and can't 'help themselves' when they steal, kill or rape. They can only be declared 'not entirely guilty' (not 'not guilty') if they after the deed imediately go to the police to confess and/or if they take all thinkable precautiuons, including voluntary psychotherapy, if neccessary in closed institutes.  If they in any way tried to hide the deed or hide any evidence to their guilt or in any other form try to avoid punishment (including the claim of being insane), then that is sufficiant proof that they are aware of right and wrong and thus are responsible for their doing.


Using Human Rights to get out of jail does not work for Historical and Philosophical reasons

Historical:  The Human Rights act was written for one purpose only: to impose death sentence upon the functionares of the Nazi regime even though they were by Genever Convention not punishable for their attrocities.  By genever convention, you could not be punished for anyhting that at the time and place you did it was not against the law. In Nazi Germany the disowning, getthoisation and execution of Jews and minorities was not illegal at the time of the regime's period of power and within German borders, if conducted by authorities of the militares or govermental office (such as SS or Stapo).  The human rights were writted up and retrospectively enforced to still try and punnish the regime authorities for the crimes against humanity, which up to that time didn't have any legal standing (unless you want to give political power back to the church).  Now, somehow, those same laws are being used to protect dangerous criminals (and politicians) from the just and legal consequence of their actions.
Philosophical: One of the base aspects that ethically, philosophicall, spiritually and metaphoricly define us as Human, as opposed to Animal/Beast, is the ability of rational thought and definition as sapent/sentient being, of having a mind, a sense of ethics and justice and moral and a sense of right and wrong and of the self.  Someone who lacks those qualities can not be considered Human, except in the purely zoological/biological sense of being Homo Sapiens.  Since Laws are in their entirety based on the prevailing sense of culture, moral, ethics and justice (all of which are subjective and not scientific), the zoological definition has to be in the face of law valued as inferior to the ethical definition of what a Human is.  Thurther more, there is a whole list of deeds that are declared and widely accepted as Inhuman Deeds. Rape is on that list. Such deeds are called Inhuman for the pure fact that one who is a Human could not possibly comit such, and since no human can comit inhuman deeds, anybody who comits an inhuman deed, such as rape, would be by defninition of the matter, not a Human, therefor has no claim on human rights or any other law that protects Human.



As to drug induced consent/lack of disconsent, If the drugs are taken knowingly and willingly, then the outcome of the evening is within one's own responsibility. if you drink beyong your limits of consciousnes, then it is your fault alone if you consent to something or are subjected to something you later regret. It would take witnesses to vouch that you have been forced while in stupor, to make a rape case, just not remembering having consented and declaring that in sober mind you wouldn't have, is not good enough.

Declaring that the accused has to prove his innocence would result in many of the people I know being burned publicly for being witches and heretics. Even with our present 'innocent until proven guilty' the stain on one's reputation comes up as soon as one is accused, thanks to the efficiancy of our 'freedom of the press'.  It goes into the papers and even if the court establishes that one is innocent, the people around one will still think one is a rapist, even if not in that specific case.  It should be set that anybody who knowingly falsely accuses another for any crime, that accuser should take the punishment the accused would have been subjected to.  It happens often enough that women, as a form of revenge, claim to have been raped.  I know of one case where a high school girl violated herself with the handle of a hammer and accused her teacher of having raped her because he refused to have sex with her. And that is just one case.

Sex with Underaged/Statuory Rape is nonsense. By legal definition of the term, rape is unconsented sex. if an underaged consents, it is not rape, statuory or otherwise. The claim that underaged youths are mentally not able to make decissions and give consent is not only adult arogance, its total brainless nonsense. 
1: Kids have a much better grasp of what they want and what thye don't want than adults. Sure, Kids can be easily manipulated into wanting something, but just as fast does the manipulation fail as soon as a) another thing takes their attention or b) they discover that its not as fancy as they thought.
2: Kids at pre-pubescent age are not interested in sex, commonly they even find any form of physical affection to be 'gross'. Sure, one can bribe or lie a kid into consenting, but c'mon.....Point of the matter being, if a youth consents to or initiates sex, its because they want it. If you argue that they can't know if they want it because they don't know what it is, then EVERY taking of someone's virginity, regardless of age or gender, is statuory rape. Do you know how great or disgusting sex with another person is (sex with other than your own hand)?  Was your first time sex 'statuory rape' even though you were already 35 and living in your parent's basement?
3: To deny youths the right to have sex is age discrimination. Youths are humans too and have rights to make their own decissions.
4:  For all legal matters, the parents are responsible for their underaged children. If a youth consents to sex with an adult (or other youth), its not the adult, nor the kid, its the Parents who are to take the legal punishment. That concept is binding to any parent who ever played the Pater Potestas card (using being the parent as base for authority over the child)

Domestic Violence:
Yes, it happens. It is illegal and it still happens. It has always happened and it will always happen.
BUT: in the majority of cases where the abused partner (wife or husband, traditionally but not always the wife) doesn't go to the police, it is NOT because of fear or shame but indeed, against all propaganda and public miss-opinion, out of genuine love, devotion and loyalty.  This can have several reasons, some of which can be related to the nonsense that do-gooders and carebears consider 'abuse' (frind of mine got the cops called on him for having bitch-slapped his wife after she has hit him with intend to provoke him).  Also it is mostly NOT some pseudo-humanitarianly conceived lack of confidence or pride in the abused one. In fact the abused one often has got a lot of pride and strength.  Its the media that blows the exception cases where the abuse is indeed abusive and where the abused one is too scared or unconfident to leave out of proportion and declares them standart.
Furthermore, One may not forget the concept of Consented Disconsent.  Unless if the alegedly abused one complains at court or to friends or whatever, nobody can tell if it is really abuse or just BDSM Edge-Play, noone except the involved ones.

Women raping Men:
It happens. Errection might be a sign of readines, but not of consent or willingnes. It is a proven fact that high levels of adrenaline (through fear, panic, excitement, pain, etc...) can cause men to have an errection, and if there is a sexual subtext to the abusive situation, they WILL have an errection.  To say a male errection and/or ejaculation is enough proof that the man wanted and enjoyed it, then a woman being wet and/or getting orgasmus is proof that she wanted and enjoyed it.

Mental damage through Rape:
The gravity of the damage is a symptom our sociaty.  There have been centuries, even though they were in primeval and medieval times, when a woman would not have needed psycho-therapy to cope, where a woman would not have played with the thoughts of suicide, where a woman would not have tried to lock herself up in a room and fear all physical contact. A woman would have coped, she would have accepted it as happened and after washing herself got on with her life. She might have no longer been able to find pleasure in sex, but she would not be so horrendously scarred that she'd be unable to function without professional help.  The reason was simply, they knew rape to be a reality of the world, not just something that 'only happens in movies and to others', but a real and ever-pending risk. If one is lucky one doesn't get raped at all in one's life, but one didn't count on it.  Being mentally and emotionally able to accept a trauma reduces the possible damage when it happens.
Furthermore, I have talked to several women about this subject and 9 out of 10 have admitted to me that the worst part of the rape was not the fear or pain or the indignity or injury. It was the shame of the Orgasm. They all knew they did no wrong, that they were the victims, that they have no need to feel ashamed for anyhting, but they still felt guilty because the severity (and quality) of the orgasm. They felt ashamed because there was something (to their understanding) sick and unspeakable in their mind that actually liked it.  It is mostly that shame that caused them thoughts of suicide.  I am not saying here that women secretly like being raped, they don't. But the severity and quality of the female orgasm, wanted or not, is directly influence by the adrenalin levels, and in situations of terror and panic, there is more adrenalin than in most euphoric or ecstatic situations.  It is an observed fact that women have a stronger orgasm if they are scared and men have stronger orgasm if they are aggravated. There are evolutionary reasons to that, which I might indulge in a different thread.


Thanks for reading, You were a sexy audience.

charles

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Re: Rape or Consensual Sex?
« Reply #98 on: June 01, 2011, 07:29:02 pm »
*CRY* I had a complete response to the above post and then I bluescreened  :(

"I would not consider the insanity 'get out of jail' card valid at any point, for legal and psychological reasons."

Probably needs it's own thread by this stage.  You're covering insanity pleas in general rather than specific to rape or consensual sex.

"Using Human Rights to get out of jail does not work for Historical and Philosophical reasons"

Needs its own thread.  You're covering punishment or rapists or treatment of them, not the question of when sex is rape or consensual.

"Sex with Underaged/Statuory Rape is nonsense"

While that is covered here a bit, you probably want to use the thread AGE OF REASON which discusses this in detail.

"Domestic Violence"

Needs it's own thread for the most part.  You're discussing domestic violence in the much more broad sense as opposed to the specific point of rape.  If you're after the question of if rape can occur between a married couple then the answer is yes.  Marriage is not a certificate that automatically means you've been granted consent for sex by the partner forever after.  Any man or woman has the right to refuse sex with another despite how many times they may have had sex together previously.  If they are forced against their will, it is considered rape.


I'll edit this to address the other points rather than loose this to another bluescreen *lol*
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