Author Topic: Rape or Consensual Sex?  (Read 30683 times)

Emp_Dragon

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Re: Rape or Consensual Sex?
« Reply #60 on: January 21, 2010, 11:08:06 am »
If I caught any of my male friends trying to blackmail anyone for sex I'd sure be pulling a prank on that friend...

A .22 jacketed-hollow-point-in-the-nuts prank.

I'd just blackmail them into having sex with a diseased prostitute. Because I'm poetic like that.
I just don't know any prostitutes, much less any diseased ones. If I had I'd have tried to help them off the street if they wanted me to.

CrystalDragonSpaceMarine

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Re: Rape or Consensual Sex?
« Reply #61 on: January 21, 2010, 12:13:58 pm »
If I caught any of my male friends trying to blackmail anyone for sex I'd sure be pulling a prank on that friend...

A .22 jacketed-hollow-point-in-the-nuts prank.

I'd just blackmail them into having sex with a diseased prostitute. Because I'm poetic like that.
I just don't know any prostitutes, much less any diseased ones. If I had I'd have tried to help them off the street if they wanted me to.

Yes, help them off the street, and in return they can be used in your evil plot to infect jerks with STD's!

RoninAngel

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Re: Rape or Consensual Sex?
« Reply #62 on: January 21, 2010, 12:23:32 pm »
If I caught any of my male friends trying to blackmail anyone for sex I'd sure be pulling a prank on that friend...

A .22 jacketed-hollow-point-in-the-nuts prank.

It's a lot easier to blackmail someone if they are a closeted gay man.

Gary said the fellow who was blackmailed didn't really take it to hard. In Gary's words "he was a little whore".  :-\

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Emp_Dragon

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Re: Rape or Consensual Sex?
« Reply #63 on: January 21, 2010, 01:06:47 pm »
How it's recived doesn't excuse it.

RoninAngel

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Re: Rape or Consensual Sex?
« Reply #64 on: January 21, 2010, 01:26:06 pm »
Hold on. For some folks, blackmail might just be foreplay. I mean, S&M couples literally beat and torture each other and that's not abuse. I think how it's received is very much a factor in weather or not it's wrong. I don't believe in victim-less crimes. That's just society's arbitrary morality imposing itself into the lives of private citizens.
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Emp_Dragon

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Re: Rape or Consensual Sex?
« Reply #65 on: January 21, 2010, 01:33:55 pm »
S&M has nothing to do with true blackmail, there is a HUGE difference.
People entertaining themselves with s&m is no more liklely to respond positively to actual blackmail than any other persons. S&M is basically erotic (to the involved) full-contact theatre without a script.

Blackmailing always has a perp and a victim. Even so-called victim-less crimes always have victims, even though they aren't nessessarily in the same link on the chain of events.

RoninAngel

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Re: Rape or Consensual Sex?
« Reply #66 on: January 21, 2010, 01:40:50 pm »
What the heck are you talking about?
I am not trying to be antagonizing or facetious, I just really have no idea what you are saying.  ??? ??? ???
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Emp_Dragon

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Re: Rape or Consensual Sex?
« Reply #67 on: January 21, 2010, 01:46:57 pm »
I'm saying you need to differentiate between fake blackmail within a relationship of TOTAL mutual trust that is absolutely non-negotiable in BDSM circuits and Real, ugly blackmail that's among the most heinous things you could do to someone else short of turning them into slavery.

RoninAngel

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Re: Rape or Consensual Sex?
« Reply #68 on: January 21, 2010, 02:06:07 pm »
Okay, but between the 2 extremes there is a lot of other things that can happen. Someone can say that they are going to tell someone else's secrets and not really mean it. Some one could theoriticaly blackmail someone else and the victim could end up falling for or forgiving the person. It's possible right? I mean kidnap victims fall for their captors all the time.

I feel that that most things are really only wrong when they cause someone serious emotional or physical damage. Or sometimes when they take advantage of someone's rights or property.
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Emp_Dragon

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Re: Rape or Consensual Sex?
« Reply #69 on: January 21, 2010, 02:19:08 pm »
Bluffing is still blackmail and still a crime, regardless if you intend to follow through with the threat or not.
As soon as you state an intention to do something in an effort to limit anyone elses options to what you prefer them to do, then you are comitting a crime.
Simple as that provided a previous agreement is not making the whole situation part of a game where all involved are fully aware of the rules and have ultimate retreat options that cause no detrimental side effects.

charles

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Re: Rape or Consensual Sex?
« Reply #70 on: January 21, 2010, 03:54:31 pm »
I put a gun to a girls head and tell her to have sex with me or I'll blow her brains out and she complies.  But hey, thats alright 'cos I was bluffing about blowing her brains out *LOL* ::)

My understanding of the law is that the rape/blackmail victim must report the incident and force the complaint.  As far as I know if they don't wish to press charges then there's little the police can do.

Theoretically I suppose, it is still considered a crime and if the victim still went through with reporting the sex as non-consensual or rape then the perpetrator would be convicted despite any relationship or legitimate sex which took place between the victim and perpetrator after the incident.
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CrystalDragonSpaceMarine

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Re: Rape or Consensual Sex?
« Reply #71 on: January 21, 2010, 04:34:41 pm »
Hold on. For some folks, blackmail might just be foreplay. I mean, S&M couples literally beat and torture each other and that's not abuse. I think how it's received is very much a factor in weather or not it's wrong. I don't believe in victim-less crimes. That's just society's arbitrary morality imposing itself into the lives of private citizens.

The main difference between BDSM and reality is that reality doesn't have safewords.


Okay, but between the 2 extremes there is a lot of other things that can happen.

Uh, no. This is one of those situations where it either is, or it isn't.

Quote
Someone can say that they are going to tell someone else's secrets and not really mean it. Some one could theoriticaly blackmail someone else and the victim could end up falling for or forgiving the person. It's possible right? I mean kidnap victims fall for their captors all the time.

I honestly don't know what you are getting at here. Are you saying blackmail and kidnapping is okay because they might end up being okay with it? I mean, I'm sure someone out there has fallen in love with their rapist, but that still doesn't make it okay.


charles

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Re: Rape or Consensual Sex?
« Reply #72 on: January 21, 2010, 05:00:52 pm »
I guess the idea of bluffed blackmail takes it back to the example of Moss and Maytag right now.  If Moss is bluffing and there's really no great threat to Maytag and her friends or if he was there to let her out regardless then is it still alright to force the sex?

To the best of my knowledge it's not acceptable in the law.  Regardless of the perpetrator's intent to go through with whatever they're blackmailing the victim with the fact is that the victim feels threatened to obey the perpetrator or suffer whatever consequences the perpetrator is threatening.  The one thing that might make such a bluff OK is if the perpetrator admits the blackmail is actually a bluff before the victim complies with any demands.

As before, it's likely that if a victim does somehow fall for their blackmailer, captor, rapist that the perpetrator would not be charged.  Not because their act is no longer considered criminal but because the victim would simply refuse to press charges and probably assist the perpetrator in fabricating some lie or excuse.  You can't really call this a victimless crime because at the time of the criminal act there certainly was a victim who did not wish to be captured, raped or blackmailed.  Presuming that because the victim forgives the perpetrator at a later date suddenly makes it a victimless crime is much the same as the victim dying of an unrelated cause within an hour would make it victimless.

Even then attempted murder is essentially a victimless crime so I'd have to disagree that there's no such thing as a victimless crime.  Hell, the recent bomber on an aircraft headed for the U.S. didn't manage to kill or injure anyone before he was taken down.  The argument in these cases is that the perpetrator intended to commit a crime which would result in victim/s much like a rape would result in a rape victim despite any forgiveness the victim might apply at a later date.
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CrystalDragonSpaceMarine

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Re: Rape or Consensual Sex?
« Reply #73 on: January 21, 2010, 05:05:04 pm »
Attempted murder is still...kind of assault.

Like, attempted rape. If you don't succeed, is it a "victimless crime"? No, because unsuccessful rape is still sexual assault.

charles

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Re: Rape or Consensual Sex?
« Reply #74 on: January 21, 2010, 05:20:43 pm »
Depends on how the attempted murder is conducted.  If you poison someone's drink but they never drink it then there's essentially no harm done other than the attempt on their life.  Certainly if you shoot someone with the intent to kill them but they survive then there's harm done as well as the attempt on their life.  But there could be various attempts on a person's life which either don't cause any harm or which the victim isn't even aware of at the time.

I'm not sure how you could attempt rape without causing some sort of harm.  Closest I can think is that they spike a drink with a date rape drug but the victim doesn't drink it, but I'm not sure what they'd be charged with under those circumstances.  Even if we presume they confessed their entire plans to rape the victim to people or wrote the whole plan out in their diary, I don't know what they'd be charged with.
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CrystalDragonSpaceMarine

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Re: Rape or Consensual Sex?
« Reply #75 on: January 21, 2010, 05:22:44 pm »
I'm sure there's some kind of "conspiracy to harm" law you could tag them with.

Presuming that they find out your were planning stuff like that, though, could be psychologically damaging, still.

charles

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Re: Rape or Consensual Sex?
« Reply #76 on: January 21, 2010, 06:52:22 pm »
I think a lot of the old victimless crime debate tends to be around euthanasia, drugs, public nudity and such.

Some of the old ones which are dead across most of the globe are laws forbidding homosexuality or even punishing extra-marital sex all the way over to laws forbidding public affection.

Another good example of a victimless crime is someone getting charged for not having some sort of compulsory insurance (3rd party car insurance or some insurance for your business, etc).  In this case, no-one has been harmed but they've created a potential for harm where someone could be killed or injured, or property damaged and the person or company responsible doesn't have an insurance who can compensate the victim.  Making it a crime is an easy way to force compliance since without it you'd get companies/people who decide to skip the insurance and take the risk, then they can only be charged when there's already a victim who can't be compensated.
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CrystalDragonSpaceMarine

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Re: Rape or Consensual Sex?
« Reply #77 on: January 21, 2010, 07:00:06 pm »
I suppose it also depends on how hypersensitive you want to be about "destructive effects".

charles

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Re: Rape or Consensual Sex?
« Reply #78 on: January 21, 2010, 08:23:34 pm »
Which is a tough one.  Lets take public decency for example.  Public sex is illegal almost everywhere, public nudity has most modern nations at least permitting it in certain areas (mostly beaches and some parks).  Women going topless seems to still be illegal but mostly ignored in regards to actually enforcing the law.  Revealing clothing appears to be acceptable across most of the modern world and covering of the face, arms, legs and other part less sexualised in the western world are only restricted in a few countries.

In a lot of these cases it's more that the majority of people in the particular nation have agreed to the law because they don't want to see those things in public.  Heck, on the reverse side I've been hearing of some moves in western nations to banish the Muslim head-dresses which I half equate with some tribal African group banishing women from wearing bras and tops *lol*

I suppose the big deal to be made here by most is that people should be allowed to choose what they do and don't wear or what parts of their body they do and don't show.  Some might say that people should be able to go around without having to see certain things in public and while we're not going to banish dogs or clowns because a minority have a fear of them there's no doubt that it's a vast majority who don't want people publicly exposing their entire bodies outside of select areas.

In the case of the few people hypersensitive to clowns and dogs, we'd tell them to see a psychiatrist and learn to deal with it, but in the case of a majority of people who don't want public nudity to be commonplace we tell the few people who want to be more revealing to deal with it and create a law to enforce it.  Thats the right of democracy I guess, but considering it was an outrage for women to show their ankles early last century, we've certainly come a long way with the public as a whole becoming gradually more comfortable with it and the laws getting governing them being either removed or relaxed significantly.

Heck, the same will eventually be the same for same-sex marriage.  Considering how far modern society has come from completely condemning it to leaving pretty much allowing all except that one right, it's only a matter of time before that last hurdle is overcome.
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RoninAngel

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Re: Rape or Consensual Sex?
« Reply #79 on: January 21, 2010, 09:10:17 pm »
yeah. Well argued. I guess it's kind of different.

But when do you cross the line of just lying to get sex and rape.
Where is the cut off point?
Seems there is a lot of gray area. Like your boss coming on to you. She might not threaten to fire you, but she doesn't really need to. The threat of "If you reject me, I'll fire you," is implicit.
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CrystalDragonSpaceMarine

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Re: Rape or Consensual Sex?
« Reply #80 on: January 21, 2010, 09:11:14 pm »
I do wish we weren't so sexualized about nudity. Not because I personally want to be nude or give hot women a chance to be nude in my view, but because I a) hate people being uptight about things that don't matter, and subsequently jostling me about them, and b) wish are culture wasn't so sexualized in general.

CrystalDragonSpaceMarine

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Re: Rape or Consensual Sex?
« Reply #81 on: January 21, 2010, 09:12:22 pm »
yeah. Well argued. I guess it's kind of different.

But when do you cross the line of just lying to get sex and rape.
Where is the cut off point?
Seems there is a lot of gray area. Like your boss coming on to you. She might not threaten to fire you, but she doesn't really need to. The threat of "If you reject me, I'll fire you," is implicit.

The difference is a threat.

"Fuck me or I will do X to you." is a threat.
"Fuck me and I'll love you forever." is not.

charles

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Re: Rape or Consensual Sex?
« Reply #82 on: January 21, 2010, 09:49:08 pm »
But what Ronin is pointing out is that sometimes the threat is implied, or not even implied but that you know the person is likely to take rejection badly and is in a position to punish you for it.  In that sense there is no "fuck me or I will do X to you." but rather the victim fears or believes that the perpetrator will do X to them if they refuse.

I don't know if there's so much a question of if it's wrong but more so, how do you prove it.  Even in a "he said, she said" scenario you have the victim/accuser saying "he/she threatened X" and the perpetrator/accused saying "I never said that" but with an implied or perceived threat you have the victim/accuser saying "he/she said/did Y which makes me believe they were threatening me with X if I didn't agree to sex" or "I believe he/she would do X if I refused".  Obviously there's a much bigger question on if a threat really existed or not and I guess the only way to really prove it is to somehow prove that the perpetrator knew that an unspoken or implied threat existed towards the victim and that the victim would be aware of the threat.  Of course if the perpetrator was truly not aware and didn't intend any threat towards the victim then they're simply not guilty.  The victim may still feel victimised but there's not much which can be done if there was truly no malicious intent from the accused.

Now if the perpetrator's advancements are rebuked and the perpetrator begins to take actions against the victim then that can only go to the company's HR department or other authorities who deal with workplace harassment and unfair treatment.  But proving that or even getting action in your favor is a bitch if you're the lesser employee.
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Azure Priest

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Re: Rape or Consensual Sex?
« Reply #83 on: January 22, 2010, 05:51:47 am »
It's Rape whenever one or more of the parties has the ability to consent or refuse consent removed, denied or ignored. It does NOT necessarily require violence or the threat of violence, real or implied.

Some situations (of the top of my head) where it's rape, but "violence" is not used.

1.) Sexual acts are performed on someone who is unconscious, drugged, or incapacitated in any way where consent can not be determined.

2.) Demanding or performing sexual acts on someone who is imprisoned or restrained. In the case where someone is restrained, outside of BDSM, it's a case where the victim can not defend him or herself if consent is refused. In the case of imprisonment, it's a case where consent can not be refused because the one doing the imprisonment has all the authority, and refusal can result in being denied, food, water, even maybe air. (Or in Maytag's case, the threat that harm will come to her lover, Bernadette. In this case, it's an act of desperation, not actual consent.)

3.) Performing sexual acts on or with someone who can not legally give consent. This doesn't just include "underage" persons. People who are severely retarded, insane, or mentally damaged by injury or disease, or in some way can not fully comprehend what is being asked of them, are included in this list.

4.) Sexual favors from those over whom you have authority. Violence, or threat of violence are not required as the threat of other "punishments" that are within the authority's influence are implied. Teachers/ professors and students, employers and employees, parent/step parent (or orphanage employee) and dependent child, etc. While in some cases, like employer/ employee, it is not LEGALLY rape, it is still wrong as there is no "correct" way to obtain consent.

It is always the "aggressor's" responsibility to receive consent before proceeding, and it is always the right of the other party to withdraw consent at any point. Once consent is withdrawn, sexual activity MUST stop.

Emp_Dragon

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Re: Rape or Consensual Sex?
« Reply #84 on: January 23, 2010, 06:51:01 am »
I am very much agreed with Azure here, with the addition that if sexual activity has been determined to have occured in a case reported as rape or similiar, then it should be the aggressor who has to prove consent during the entire act.

Often when I have stated this, I have been jumped at by people who claims that it would be used by women who just wasn't satisfied the morning after a heavy night out. To that I say: It's supposed to hurt to be stupid.

RoninAngel

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Re: Rape or Consensual Sex?
« Reply #85 on: January 24, 2010, 05:12:26 am »

What's wrong with having sex with willing teenagers?
You could make a similar argument for retarded people.
I think consent should mean "consent". Leave societies' arbitrary disapproval out if the law.
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Emp_Dragon

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Re: Rape or Consensual Sex?
« Reply #86 on: January 24, 2010, 06:50:34 am »
The disapproval of society with regards to the concept of statuatory rape is based on the fact that most people aren't able to make informed desicions before they have ammassed a certain ammount of experience, something that takes time.

Thus any 'consent' is deemed invalid until an age where people can be expected to have amassed the experience needed to factor in all possible consequences of such a desicion, thus making it an informed desicion of active consent.
As far as the definition of rape goes, as far as I see it, consent would have to be an actively expressed desicion, in word, or actions to be valid.

CrystalDragonSpaceMarine

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Re: Rape or Consensual Sex?
« Reply #87 on: January 24, 2010, 07:45:40 am »

What's wrong with having sex with willing teenagers?
You could make a similar argument for retarded people.
I think consent should mean "consent". Leave societies' arbitrary disapproval out if the law.

Teenagers, nothing.
But a seven-year-old? They can't possibly give consent.

I still say, though, it's ridiculous to not allow people who are probably having sex with each other to not have sex.
It's only creepy because it's illegal and has extra stigma attached to it.

Emp_Dragon

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Re: Rape or Consensual Sex?
« Reply #88 on: January 24, 2010, 08:04:36 am »
I can agree to the extent that the US has a ridiculously high age-limit of legal consent.

RoninAngel

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Re: Rape or Consensual Sex?
« Reply #89 on: January 24, 2010, 08:46:41 am »
That's nothing. In Law and Order Special Victims Unit, whenever a 16 year old has sex with someone, the teenaged character is always, "But I love him!" and the lawyers are all "You are a child, you can't know what love is." Nevermind that the age of consent in New York is 17. So you are magically an adult on your 17th birthday, but the day before, YOU ARE NOTHING BUT A CHILD! YOU CANNOT MAKE DECISIONS FOR YOUR SELF! I don't care if that's what the law says, you cannot tell me that the otherwise perfectly reasonable characters actually believe that.   ::)
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