Author Topic: Rape or Consensual Sex?  (Read 30648 times)

CrystalDragonSpaceMarine

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Re: Rape or Consensual Sex?
« Reply #30 on: June 29, 2009, 08:55:47 am »
*meh* we might need a seperate topic on punishments, rehabilitation and deterrants if we keep at this.

Back to the question.  When is Sex Consensual and when is it Rape?

Heck, how about the good old one of a client not paying a sex worker for "services rendered" after the fact?  Can she claim rape against a guy who doesn't pay up?

Well, if prostitution is illegal, I'm not sure you'd want to report that.
But if it was, I'd say it's not technically rape, since you are consenting to it (in exchange for money), but that'd still be illegal under a different law.
I just hope your brothel keeps proof of customer engagement.

Quote
Not to mention Statutory rape when an adult man or woman has "consensual" sex with an underage TEEN.

I knew a guy that got screwed over with that in high school. Had sex with an underclassmen, and when she got upset with him she reported it to the police. So, yeah, he had to go to prison because some girl was a bitch.

I really think they need to alter the age range for this sort of thing. It's not pedophilia to have sex with a teenager. For Christ's sake, they have tits! It's like one of my friends used to say, "Old enough to bleed, old enough to breed."
But unfortunately our society will never have that level of freedom.

Quote
And can a man claim rape against a woman?

Yes. And even without forced penetration, it can still he considered sexual assault.

But i have to agree with Charles, we'd better stay on topic and not let our emotions go to the dark area they want to go.

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Valenthesial

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Re: Rape or Consensual Sex?
« Reply #31 on: June 29, 2009, 09:33:16 am »
A seperate topic about punishments and such will result in a gruesome and gory thread with punishments described in detail.
That actually sounds appetizing. let's open that thread?  ;D
Well, I actually think that the discussion about punishment / rehabilitation was quite an interesting one, even if it was a bit outside of the definition of rape.

Regardless:
Quote from: charles
Heck, how about the good old one of a client not paying a sex worker for "services rendered" after the fact?  Can she claim rape against a guy who doesn't pay up?
I doubt you'll find anyone around here who'll consider it a rape. If a person is considering the "sexual encounter" to be a paid service, failing to pay for it is obviously a crime of theft / failing to pay for a service, rather than rape.

However, let's turn the question a bit:
Let's say a said person is working as a prostitute, and had a sexual encounter so called outside of work.

The prostitute claims it was rape, while the accused claim it was a paid service or consensual.
A. How would the court / media be affected the victim's profession?
B. Who would they believe in a word against word situation?
C. Is it justified?

Quote from: charles
Statutory rape when an adult man or woman has "consensual" sex with an underage TEEN.

Alrighty! Now's the time to make some disputed arguments:

Claim #1: When there is a small age gap (say 2-3 years) between the under-aged and the adult, it should not be considered a statutory rape.
Reasoning: Think of an under aged couple, that one of them suddenly became an adult. What they are doing consensually for some time SUDDENLY becomes illegal once one of them becomes 18.

Claim #2: If the adult and the under-aged did not have any rank-based relationship (aka teacher-student, older family member etc) and the sexual encounter was consensual, charging ONLY the adult with full responsibility is completely unfair. Note that I do not claim the adult should not be charged.
Therefor, if we choose to consider the consensual sexual encounter a crime, it was performed by both parties and some of the crime belongs to the under-aged party. Depending on the under-aged age, either his legal guardians or himself should suffer charges as well (for child neglection in case of the guardians). Let's say for the argument's sake age that for children below age 14 the legal guardians are responsible.
Note that charges against minors have many limits in law and could not be punished by actual prison time, but rather closed institutions for children etc as the severest punishment.

Reasoning: If we choose to consider this as a crime, the adult is not the only participant. Participating in a crime, even by a minor have consequences in law. This obviously does not deal with cases where it was NOT consensual. A minor having sexual relationships have in many cases negative effects on himself/herself (especially when done with adults) and should be deterred from doing so and educationally punished if performing an illegal act.
Other reasonings:
A. It will reduce the cases of "but I didn't know she was under-aged"
B. Reduce the chance minors will be taken advantage of (either by punishing neglecting parents, or deterring the minor from relatively dangerous activities).
C. Reduce the chance of "Revenge" trials where a minor decides retroactively to report just because of a broken relationship etc, or a parent decides to report it as a sort of vengeance/teaching a lesson.

Anyone feel like arguing against/for those claims?

Valenthesial

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Re: Rape or Consensual Sex?
« Reply #32 on: June 29, 2009, 09:41:26 am »
Quote from: CrystalDragonSpaceMarine
Not to mention Statutory rape when an adult man or woman has "consensual" sex with an underage TEEN.

I knew a guy that got screwed over with that in high school. Had sex with an underclassmen, and when she got upset with him she reported it to the police. So, yeah, he had to go to prison because some girl was a bitch.

I really think they need to alter the age range for this sort of thing. It's not pedophilia to have sex with a teenager. For Christ's sake, they have tits! It's like one of my friends used to say, "Old enough to bleed, old enough to breed."
But unfortunately our society will never have that level of freedom.

I didn't notice your post when I wrote mine, but I think I've addressed exactly this issue with claims #1 and #2.

And I fail to agree on "alter the age range for this sort of thing". Age gap should be a much better idea in my opinion. Legalizing a sexual encounter between a 50yo and a 13yo sounds like a bad idea to me.
You can claim: "no no, 13 is too young, I meant 16!" but then again, even if society is now so called advanced and people are exposed to sexuality from the media at an earlier age than in the past, it shouldn't be encouraged. It could only lead to decreasing the "legal age" further and further and causes far more harm than benefit to society. 18 is a constant number, and I know enough 19-20yo that I do not think are much more mature than teenagers in those subjects, so I do not believe 18 should be moved either way.

charles

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Re: Rape or Consensual Sex?
« Reply #33 on: June 29, 2009, 10:30:12 am »
@Valen: In A & B of the prostitution situation. Obviously if there's no evidence outside of he-said/she-said between two people, then the accuser's promiscuity comes into play and that probably leaves the police without enough evidence to go on.  Even if she were a good little virgin, Christian girl who said her prayers every night and was engaged to a good little christian boy, the police would find it difficul to prove rape over consensual with nore more evidence than conflicting statements. Again, I'm reminded of that innocent looking girl with the stars on her face who suddenly turned out to be lying.

On point C. Hell no rape is not justified or excusable just because the woman is a whore (in my opinion).  Granted, she may not feel the same level of trauma like a good little, virgin-christian victim might, but that doesn't change what the perpetrator has done and if there's enough evidence then hell yeah, prosecute.


On the Statutory Rape.  Australian laws are within 2 years age gap, or over the age of 16.  SO: Partner A=13 and Partner B=under15, all good. Partner A=15 and Partner B=over17, RAPE. Partner A=16 and Partner B=14-150, all good.

I think this is fairly good as it acknowledges those 16 and over (able to leave school and take apprenticeships, or even marry under certain conditions in Australia) as caple of choosing a sexual partner without manipulation while also accepting that within 2 years age difference, it's unlikely the older party will really hold significant sway or manipulation due to siniority.

My understanding is that although the older party is still found guilty in consensual cases, the older the consenting "victim" is the more her consent is taken into account and the less severe the jail sentence is for the perpetrator.  Obviously positions of power or trust such as that of a teacher or guardian attract higher sentences.  This is why Statutory rape exists even for consenting Teens, because even an unknown adult holds a certain level of power and authority over teenagers in Western society.

The cases I've heard of in Australia, often have a wide array of sentencing probably depending on the circumstances.  It wouldn't surprise me if a 17 year old who made it with a 15 year old only received community service and/or a suspended jain sentence.

As for punishing the teen.  I'd worry about the Teen reporting it as a non-consensual incident to avoid the punishments themselves when caught.  But having said that, I do believe that the minors are often forced to undergo counciling and in extreme cases of neglect from the parents to deal with the matter, are even removed from home.
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Valenthesial

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Re: Rape or Consensual Sex?
« Reply #34 on: July 01, 2009, 12:31:13 pm »
Ummm. Is this discussion completely dead, or did I just scare off people with my walls of text?

Charles seems to be the only one interested in arguing against my completely questionable Claim #2, and that was barely in 1 line...
I thought it might make this discussion alive again, but to no avail.

Emp_Dragon

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Re: Rape or Consensual Sex?
« Reply #35 on: July 01, 2009, 12:39:00 pm »
well, the limit for statuatory rape in Sweden is 15, 18 if the younger part has any kind of student or dependant professional relationship with the older one.

charles

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Re: Rape or Consensual Sex?
« Reply #36 on: July 01, 2009, 05:36:46 pm »
*shrug* These debates come and go depending on arguments, people and the comic sparking up more stuff.  Check out some of the older ones if you think you have stuff to add or put in a new one that you'd like to discuss.

And hey! I thought I put a good few paragraphs into responding to Claim #2. what about this line: "This is why Statutory rape exists even for consenting Teens, because even an unknown adult holds a certain level of power and authority over teenagers in Western society." Or this one "As for punishing the teen.  I'd worry about the Teen reporting it as a non-consensual incident to avoid the punishments themselves when caught."
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Etain

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Re: Rape or Consensual Sex?
« Reply #37 on: July 03, 2009, 10:41:44 pm »
But on the impulse side, the rapist is usually someone in the fringe of the victim's social circle and that's where it's least likely to be reported since the victim tends to just want to forget or is blaming him/herself for not seeing it coming and not beeing clear enough or hinking they sent mixed signals and so on.

Do you mean that if rape is committed upon impulse that the perpetrator is likely to be someone the victim doesn't know very well? As opposed to pre-meditated?

Either way, if you read the statistics and/or talk with people who are rape survivors, you'll actually find the vast majority of perpetrators are someone the victim knows well. It could be a friend, family member, someone they're dating, etc.

Valenthesial

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Re: Rape or Consensual Sex?
« Reply #38 on: July 04, 2009, 09:56:59 am »
But on the impulse side, the rapist is usually someone in the fringe of the victim's social circle and that's where it's least likely to be reported since the victim tends to just want to forget or is blaming him/herself for not seeing it coming and not beeing clear enough or hinking they sent mixed signals and so on.

Do you mean that if rape is committed upon impulse that the perpetrator is likely to be someone the victim doesn't know very well? As opposed to pre-meditated?

Either way, if you read the statistics and/or talk with people who are rape survivors, you'll actually find the vast majority of perpetrators are someone the victim knows well. It could be a friend, family member, someone they're dating, etc.
I would believe that's exactly what Emp_Dragon meant.

"This is why Statutory rape exists even for consenting Teens, because even an unknown adult holds a certain level of power and authority over teenagers in Western society."
Depending on the age of the teenager I suppose. Around here, the law for statuary rape claim that consensual sex below the age of 18 is a statuary rape. So I tend to disagree on the amount of authority one has over a 17.5 aged teenager, but when it comes to lower aged such as 15, it might make more sense.

"As for punishing the teen.  I'd worry about the Teen reporting it as a non-consensual incident to avoid the punishments themselves when caught."
Well... I can't argue against it, since I fully agree. I never actually agreed with Claim #2 and suggested it mostly to heat the argument (which didn't really seem to work  ;))

On a related subject to statuary rape, I've recently heard of a case where a couple (18yo guy and a 17yo girl) broke up, however the offended guy decided to to take "revenge" on the girl by posting her nude photos on the web (facebook).
Needless to say such an act entitles being sued on slander and most likely paying large sums of money on the anguish caused.

However, since his ex-girlfriend is a minor and he is an adult (they have about half a year age difference), he is also being charged of posting pedophile pictures and faces 10 years in jail as well as a criminal record as a pedophile (which will makes him appear on the public black list along all the dangerous pedophile rapists and prevent him from ever being hired for any decent job).

charles

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Re: Rape or Consensual Sex?
« Reply #39 on: July 04, 2009, 02:26:37 pm »
Well, I think they do have "levels" for those offenders, so they understand who is and isn't a real liability to the community on that list.

Heck, I find the posting of the photos pretty awful anyway but my guess is that although he FACES 10 years in jail for the underage offence, he'll get a lot less than that (if anything at all).  In the mean time the girl has to put up with nude photos of her circulating the internet for the rest of her life.

It's hard to tell if they can prove criminal intent for posting the photos or not *shrug*
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Valenthesial

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Re: Rape or Consensual Sex?
« Reply #40 on: July 04, 2009, 03:29:41 pm »
Well, I think they do have "levels" for those offenders, so they understand who is and isn't a real liability to the community on that list.

Heck, I find the posting of the photos pretty awful anyway but my guess is that although he FACES 10 years in jail for the underage offence, he'll get a lot less than that (if anything at all).  In the mean time the girl has to put up with nude photos of her circulating the internet for the rest of her life.

It's hard to tell if they can prove criminal intent for posting the photos or not *shrug*

The girl suffered quite a bit from this for certain and the bastard deserves punishment, no doubt. I'm not claiming otherwise.
However, if she was 5 month older, he wouldn't have faced ANY charges that can lead to being thrown to jail. Is that logical?

"he'll get a lot less than that (if anything at all)"
The minimum punishment if he'll be convicted is 3 years or so. I somehow doubt he'll get away without jail at all, as he confessed to have uploaded pictures of a girl he knew was a minor. This alone goes against the anti-pedophile rules, that prohibits having such images stored on the computer and obviously uploading/distributing such photos.

"In the mean time the girl has to put up with nude photos of her circulating the internet for the rest of her life."
True. it doesn't sound nice in the slightest for the girl. however, she can (and probably already did) sue him for the agony caused, and regardless of whether the prosecution will send him to jail, he'll most likely have to pay her 15,000$-25,000$ (At least that was the verdict in normal cases when only adults were involved). You can argue about whether this punishment is enough, but it is the common punishment for the crime of publishing someone's nude photos without his/her consent.

"Well, I think they do have "levels" for those offenders, so they understand who is and isn't a real liability to the community on that list."
The list does not have "levels". it simply lists alphabetically, with a link to the full sentence+verdict details.
If one have time, he can read through the sentence. but I think most employers won't do more than Ctrl+F to check if a person is on the list. Same goes for policemen that uses a mobile terminal to find out if the person they are speaking with have previous criminal offenses, they easily monitor such a person as a "previously convicted pedophile" and will doubtly browse through the fine details.


Emp_Dragon

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Re: Rape or Consensual Sex?
« Reply #41 on: July 04, 2009, 11:55:30 pm »
In my book, I'd say 3+ years in prison IS in proportion to the crime due to the fact that anything that's uploaded onto the web is permanently there. Even if data is deleted from all public/known sources, the same data will re-appear on the web within a given time span due to people having copied the original data, keeping it on their personal computers and uploading it again.

Publishing sensitive material as 'revenge' on the internet is the same as mailing that material to maybe a third of the people in the entire 1st and 2nd world who happens to have a mailbox. And that, I think warrants a hell of a lot more severe consequences than for example putting up that same material on one's school's public announcement board.

Valenthesial

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Re: Rape or Consensual Sex?
« Reply #42 on: July 05, 2009, 02:31:47 am »
In my book, I'd say 3+ years in prison IS in proportion to the crime due to the fact that anything that's uploaded onto the web is permanently there. Even if data is deleted from all public/known sources, the same data will re-appear on the web within a given time span due to people having copied the original data, keeping it on their personal computers and uploading it again.

Publishing sensitive material as 'revenge' on the internet is the same as mailing that material to maybe a third of the people in the entire 1st and 2nd world who happens to have a mailbox. And that, I think warrants a hell of a lot more severe consequences than for example putting up that same material on one's school's public announcement board.

I can agree on that.
Do you think that the fact that she is 17.5yo and not 18yo is relevant for the punishment in this case though?
What if they would have broken up 5 month later and only THEN he would do that?

I'm not saying he doesn't deserve punishment or even jail, but he's getting the jail sentence for the wrong reason here, at least imo.

Emp_Dragon

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Re: Rape or Consensual Sex?
« Reply #43 on: July 05, 2009, 06:02:28 am »
I'd say the age in this case should be irrellevant, and yes I agree that the punishment is dealt for the wrong crime.

Valenthesial

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Re: Rape or Consensual Sex?
« Reply #44 on: July 05, 2009, 07:58:11 am »
I'd say the age in this case should be irrellevant, and yes I agree that the punishment is dealt for the wrong crime.

Ok, I can easily agree on that as well.
Anyone got a suggestion to how to improve this law? Note that if you apply the "age gap" rule similarly to the laws on statuary offense, you could end up with a law that  indirectly supports/allows teens to be suppliers of online pedophile pornography, just because they are similar in age.

charles

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Re: Rape or Consensual Sex?
« Reply #45 on: July 05, 2009, 08:07:14 am »
What I'd really like to know is what happens if you're an adult and you post nude photos taken of YOURSELF as a child?  Probably nothing.

*meh* I'm probably getting a bit off the thread topic sorry.
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Valenthesial

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Re: Rape or Consensual Sex?
« Reply #46 on: July 05, 2009, 09:05:23 am »
What I'd really like to know is what happens if you're an adult and you post nude photos taken of YOURSELF as a child?  Probably nothing.

*meh* I'm probably getting a bit off the thread topic sorry.

rofl!
I really wonder if there was such a case ^^ I would have said that I doubt anyone would be crazy/stupid/weird enough to do something like that, but somehow I doubt it. There ARE some really strange folks in the world  ;D

Dunno, technically if it is illegal material according to the anti-pedophile laws, I suppose one can be charged with that? never heard of such a case...

"*meh* I'm probably getting a bit off the thread topic sorry."
Even if you are, we're in the debate room forums, so it's not too bad :P

Emp_Dragon

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Re: Rape or Consensual Sex?
« Reply #47 on: July 05, 2009, 09:19:50 am »
Well, as far as sensitive pictures posted by others on the web as some sick vengeance should carry a prison sentence, and a relatively long one at that. The penalty for slander of any kind should reflect the spread and longevity of how it affects the victim, not template standards set well before radio transmissions even existed as a concept.

RoninAngel

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Re: Rape or Consensual Sex?
« Reply #48 on: July 05, 2009, 12:58:04 pm »
I perfer consentual sex, most of the time. :P

Wait, what was the question?
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Valenthesial

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Re: Rape or Consensual Sex?
« Reply #49 on: July 06, 2009, 09:51:54 am »
I perfer consentual sex, most of the time. :P

Wait, what was the question?

lol!
Yeah, we *might* have been carried slightly away from the original discussion, but hey - as long as it remains interesting  ;)

akashayi

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Re: Rape or Consensual Sex?
« Reply #50 on: July 06, 2009, 06:39:01 pm »
I really tried my hardest to stay away from this thread.

I think the fuzzy ground between rape and consensual sex aside, there are still a hell of a lot more actual rapes that don't get prosecuted let alone even reported than rapes that are faked for money/revenge... and that says something about where we are legally.

So, blah.

charles

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Re: Rape or Consensual Sex?
« Reply #51 on: July 06, 2009, 07:49:14 pm »
Oh hell yeah I agree, there are far more rapists and even unreported rapes than fakers.  But I find the few fakers that are out there, almost as bad as the rapists themselves.  It's thanks to them that we do have to be careful in these cases and we can't just go around believing that no woman would do such a thing.  It's thanks to the fakers that the real victims can have their personal lives dragged out in court, before their very own rapist and family members, to ensure that they aren't a faker themselves.

It's unfortunate as the system would be great if we could offer these victims/accusers all the comforts of anonymity and closed door testimony and cross-examinations.  I'm sure they'd feel a lot more comfortable in coming forward and putting these criminals away.

Personally I'd like to see a lot more education on this stuff for girls in high-school.  Just stuff that could help them to understand when they might be getting in a situation that could lead to rape.  Letting a boy they hardly know lead them away from a party to a private place, going to someone's house or bringing them to yours when you hardly know them, etc.  I think a lot of girls have it in their mind that they might just make-out or have a coffee and talk but these guys can get it in their heads that they're expecting sex and with a little booze they might be pretty upset when it doesn't lead to that.

I'm not suggesting that the guy is justified there, far from it, just that a lot of girls that age can be naive about what a guy they hardly know, might be like in private with some booze in him, no matter how charming he may have appeared before that.  It's better to avoid a potential situation than tempt fate sometimes.  Sort of like walking a zebra crossing when a big truck is coming.  Fair enough, you legally have right of way and if the truck doesn't stop, he'll be charged, but by then, you're already hit.

Same with the boys.  Just some education that no matter how many drinks, taxi rides, meals and other things they might pay for they should have no expectation of being rewarded with sex and that forcing a girl after she says no is noting going to make her change her mind (seriously, I can't believe some of those porn movies which show girls getting forced and suddenly getting horny once they are.)  These young boys need to know that it's not going to happen like that.
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Re: Rape or Consensual Sex?
« Reply #52 on: October 28, 2009, 12:18:26 pm »
Well, this just became relevant again.

An article on the front page of yesterday's Telegraph claims:
Quote
Widespread spiking of drinks with date-rape drugs such as Rohypnol and GHB is an "urban legend" fuelled by young women unwilling to accept they have simply consumed too much alcohol, academics believe.

A study of more than 200 students revealed many wrongly blamed the effects of a "bad night out" on date-rape drugs, when they had just drunk excessively.

Many are in "active denial" that drinking large amounts of alcohol can leave them "incoherent and incapacitated", the Kent University researchers concluded.

Young women's fears about date-rape drugs are so ingrained that students mistakenly think it is a more important factor in sexual assault than being drunk, taking drugs or walking alone at night.

The study, published in the British Journal of Criminology, found three-quarters of students identified drink spiking as an important risk – more than alcohol or drugs.

More than half said they knew someone whose drink had been spiked.

But despite popular beliefs, police have found no evidence that rape victims are commonly drugged with such substances, the researchers said.

Dr Adam Burgess from the university's School of Social Policy, Sociology and Social Research, said: "Young women appear to be displacing their anxieties about the consequences of consuming what is in the bottle on to rumours of what could be put there by someone else.

"The reason why fear of drink-spiking has become widespread seems to be a mix of it being more convenient to guard against than the effects of alcohol itself and the fact that such stories are exotic – like a more adult version of 'stranger danger'."

Rituals to protect drinks from contamination, such as taking drinks to the lavatory in clubs and bars and buying only bottled drinks, have become commonplace, the academics noted.

Among young people, drink spiking stories have attractive features that could "help explain" their disproportionate loss of control after drinking alcohol, the study found.

Dr Burgess said: "Our findings suggest guarding against drink spiking has also become a way for women to negotiate how to watch out for each other in an environment where they might well lose control from alcohol consumption."

Co-researcher Dr Sarah Moore said: "We would be very interested in finding out whether the urban myth of spiking is also the result of parents feeling unable to discuss with their adult daughters how to manage drinking and sex and representing their anxieties about this through discussion of drink spiking risks."

Nick Ross, chair of the Jill Dando Institute of Crime Science, commented: "There is no evidence of widespread use of hypnotics in sexual assault, let alone Rohypnol, despite many attempts to prove the contrary.

"During thousands of blood and alcohol tests lots of judgement-impairing compounds were discovered, but they were mostly street drugs or prescription pharmaceuticals taken by the victims themselves, and above all alcohol was the common theme.

"As Dr Burgess observes, it is not scientific evidence which keeps the drug rape myth alive but the fact that it serves so many useful functions."

Dr Burgess and his team questioned more than 200 students at universities in London and south east England.

Earlier this year, Australian researchers found that not one of 97 young men and women admitted to hospital over 19 months to two Perth hospital claiming to have had their drinks spiked, had in fact been drugged.

It's kind of sad, really. Not only does this undermine the credibility of those unfortunate few who really have been drugged and then raped, it also showcases an incredible inability to take responsibility (or, in the more extreme cases, understand cause and effect).

That said, the sample is statistically tiny.
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charles

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Re: Rape or Consensual Sex?
« Reply #53 on: January 20, 2010, 06:31:29 pm »
Okay, for me this raises another question, IF Moss does have sex with Maytag, would he not then be a rapist? Here's a paste from a on-line dictionary at http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/rape to save looking:

rape,  noun, verb, raped, rap⋅ing
1. the unlawful compelling of a woman through physical force or duress to have sexual intercourse.
2. any act of sexual intercourse that is forced upon a person.

Moss is using duress to have Maytag have sex with him, if it happens its rape, Maytag would be a victim, and I would wonder just how she'll react to it afterwards. Maybe she'll be able to keep herself together when she's wearing her jester outfit, she can't wear it all the time, and I can she her more...timid personality having a very hard time.
You read it on the internet so it must be true... ::)

Moss is using blackmail to try to get Maytag to sleep with him. It's unquestionably evil, but whether it's rape is more subjective. Not to put too fine a point on it but in most states in the United States, for example, the duress being referred to is physical duress; i.e. threatening someone's life, not refusing to help them.  And even if it is rape Maytag doesn't seem like the type to take it like you seem to imply. She has dealt with this kind of thing before, the assault by Volger was unquestionably sexual, and Maytag turned out fine. Additionally, Maytag is used quite used to non-sexual violence.
Rape (and by extension, violence) is not really the issue here, it's the fact the Maytag is being forced to choose between breaking her promise to Bernadette, or to allow for Bernadette's gruesome and horribly painful demise.
In that light, her choice is obvious, but not in anyway pleasant.
I have to disagree with you, in my view, and as you said it can be views. Maytag has stated that she was not interested in sex with Moss, she's in a dangerous situation. She's being held against her will, by people she has nothing to do with. Her lover is missing and she has no idea about her safety. This is more than just about a broken promise. She's been forced into making a decision against her will. If not for her own safety, maybe for Bern's. I would call what Moss is doing rape.

If a mother is being held against her will, and her child is being held somewhere else, and someone told her she'll be released if she has sex with them, I would NOT call that consensual, that would be rape. Again, this is my view, you can hold a different one and not call it rape, if you don't, then we'll just have to agree that we disagree.
I would like to go along with your definition, but doing so muddies up the waters too much.

Say you took dirty pictures of me. And then you told me that you would send them to my dad if I didn't have sex with you. If I complied, would you be a rapist? No, you would not. Because rape requires violence. It the act of taking away someone's sexual freedom through violence or threat of violence. If you raped me, I would feel traumatized not just by your lack of my right to choose but likely more so by your violent attack. If you blackmailed me, I would still be hurt, but less so, because the act itself would likely not be a violent act, because I would likely be somewhat willing participant.

Also, don't forget that Moss is not threatening to do anything to Bernadette himself, just refusing to help Maytag without sex. He never implied that he would hurt Bernadette if May didn't sleep with him. This is an important distinction because unless he actively helped kill Bernadette, he would not be directly responsible for what the Thin Man/Melter did to her.

I would like to add that I respect your opinoin and that you bring up valid points, just not ones that I personally hold to. No matter what we choose to call what Moss is doing, I think both agree it is very very wrong and a likely sign that he has jumped off the deep end from morally ambiguous and distasteful action to unforgivable depravity. 
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charles

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Re: Rape or Consensual Sex?
« Reply #54 on: January 20, 2010, 07:01:09 pm »
I'm yet to do some serious research into the common definition of rape but I can see some points here.

If someone simply overpowers and forces themselves sexually onto another person who resists the entire time then this is obviously rape since there is never any consenting move from the victim.  But if someone puts a gun to a victim's head, tells them to undress, lie down and let the gunman have sex with them then there's a technical argument that there was some consent or choice since the victim choose to follow the instructions and allow the sex to occur rather than be killed.  Of course it's easily argued that the choice between following someone's instructions or being killed by them isn't much of a choice but at a VERY raw technical level with emotions and morals completely removed it can be argued there's a level of consent.

Obviously the law and commonsense takes it to still be rape but at what point do we say it isn't rape when the sex is only consented to under the duress of a more difficult choice or option?  The threat of death, violence and other abuse to gain consent can probably mark the sex as rape with relative ease.  A woman agreeing to have sex with someone to pay off some debt or make money probably wouldn't fall into rape (presuming the consequences of not paying the debt are only financially threatening).  Imprisoning someone until they agree to have sex with you is probably put into the rape category with relative ease.

However I think RoninAngel is comparing the situation between Moss and Maytag as more like a man refusing to rescue a woman and her family from a burning house unless she agrees to sex with him.  Its hard to say if we can argue that Moss helped light the house on fire or if he just sat back and watched someone else light it, but I can see how this might make it a bit more of a grey area.

I think he'd probably still get charged in some way if we're talking Western courts of law.  Jury members would apply emotion to the pure logic and convict him.  If we're talking just a judge with a wicked conviction to logic then he's probably come to the conclusion that Moss was an accessory to the crime and effectively a part of it, thus close enough to the man holding a gun against a victim's head to call his actions rape.  They'd drag Maytag's sexual history through the thing and point out that she's unlikely to be emotionally scared or heavily effected by the rape... But that might be a falsehood depending on how traumatic it is for her to break her commitment to Bern.
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CrystalDragonSpaceMarine

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Re: Rape or Consensual Sex?
« Reply #55 on: January 20, 2010, 08:56:04 pm »
I, personally, would prefer "rape" be termed solely to physical force, and that forms of coercion have a specific term pertaining to them.

But I consider either to be equivalent. That's a Hobson's choice, and for certain circumstances (including Maytag's circumstance, or any in which a person or loved one's are threatened) should be treated as the same as rape ((a slight tangent, I'd also consider this grounds for mitigation in case they are pressured into doing something illegal)).

For things that aren't real threats, is where it starts getting a little grayer.

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Re: Rape or Consensual Sex?
« Reply #56 on: January 21, 2010, 08:23:01 am »
I still say people that subjects others to those kind of choises need to be purged from society. (though not nessessarily by incineration while alive)

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Re: Rape or Consensual Sex?
« Reply #57 on: January 21, 2010, 09:00:38 am »
You'd be surprised how often the plot of a porn film revolves around blackmail. It seems a lot of guys think this is a legitimate way to get sex. Also, Gary told me a story about a fellow he knew that did this in real life. Gary pulled a prank on him, but it wasn't taken at all seriously.
I got 99 problems but a nymphomaniac jester girl ain't one.

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Re: Rape or Consensual Sex?
« Reply #58 on: January 21, 2010, 10:18:05 am »
If I caught any of my male friends trying to blackmail anyone for sex I'd sure be pulling a prank on that friend...

A .22 jacketed-hollow-point-in-the-nuts prank.

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Re: Rape or Consensual Sex?
« Reply #59 on: January 21, 2010, 10:37:37 am »
You'd be surprised how often the plot of a porn film revolves around blackmail. It seems a lot of guys think this is a legitimate way to get sex. Also, Gary told me a story about a fellow he knew that did this in real life. Gary pulled a prank on him, but it wasn't taken at all seriously.

A lot of guys probably watch way too much porn.


If I caught any of my male friends trying to blackmail anyone for sex I'd sure be pulling a prank on that friend...

A .22 jacketed-hollow-point-in-the-nuts prank.

I'd just blackmail them into having sex with a diseased prostitute. Because I'm poetic like that.