Author Topic: The Truth Thread  (Read 4641 times)

Oddball

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The Truth Thread
« on: May 28, 2009, 12:26:02 am »
The truth is only what you want to belive. (sorry for that extremly tired from night shift)




I hacked this post! Bwuahahahahaaa..... Anyway, these post came from the big bad religion thread and made it into their very own thread. YAY!
« Last Edit: June 12, 2009, 08:22:25 am by Selan »
What good is dreaming it if you don't actually do it?.

CrystalDragonSpaceMarine

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The Big Bad Religion Thread
« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2009, 10:05:24 am »
The truth is only what you want to belive. (sorry for that extremly tired from night shift)

Or what you can believe.

RoninAngel

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« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2009, 11:28:28 am »
I don't really like the word "belief" in the first place.
Reality is so subjective, "belief" is what people are always doing, regardless of whether or not they aknowelge it.
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charles

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« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2009, 04:50:50 pm »
Actually the word 'belief' or 'believe' seems so much better than the word 'truth'

I'd rather hear someone say "I believe that..." or "My belief is..." than "The truth is..."

The word "belief" carries much more of a suggestive tone than the absolute one that the word "Truth" holds.
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RoninAngel

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« Reply #4 on: May 29, 2009, 12:55:06 pm »
I don't really even "belive" in absolute "truth", so there.  ::)
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CrystalDragonSpaceMarine

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The Big Bad Religion Thread
« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2009, 10:39:36 am »
I don't really even "belive" in absolute "truth", so there.  ::)

I think people mysticize the word "truth" too much.

There is such a thing as absolute truth. It's just the simple facts.

It's claiming one knows what is that makes one look ridiculous.

RoninAngel

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« Reply #6 on: May 30, 2009, 12:29:18 pm »
"Facts" are subjective. Their details change depending upon who witnessed them. Memories are faulty. Everyone has a different perspective. What pepople choose to report depends upon their indevidual motivations.
In order to function in society, we make certain conciets. "History books are correct", "Science is something we can trust",  "The rule of law good for our collective intrests as citezens", ect, but that is just what they are, conceits. You would have a hard time proving one example of any one of those conciets in your own life experiance. It would take effort and time and money that many of us don't want to expend. So instead we leave "Truth" up to "Experts" that may or may not have our collective best intrest at heart. 
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CrystalDragonSpaceMarine

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« Reply #7 on: May 30, 2009, 01:31:03 pm »
"Facts" are subjective. Their details change depending upon who witnessed them. Memories are faulty. Everyone has a different perspective. What pepople choose to report depends upon their indevidual motivations.
In order to function in society, we make certain conciets. "History books are correct", "Science is something we can trust",  "The rule of law good for our collective intrests as citezens", ect, but that is just what they are, conceits. You would have a hard time proving one example of any one of those conciets in your own life experiance. It would take effort and time and money that many of us don't want to expend. So instead we leave "Truth" up to "Experts" that may or may not have our collective best intrest at heart. 

But that's only through human perception. Even if we can't tell what happened, doesn't change the fact that it happened.
Only human perception is subjective. Reality itself is not.

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« Reply #8 on: May 31, 2009, 01:15:10 pm »
How do you know?
Who the fuck can tell for sure?
If not human perception, what other kind of perception is there?
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CrystalDragonSpaceMarine

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« Reply #9 on: May 31, 2009, 03:32:30 pm »
How do you know?
Who the fuck can tell for sure?
If not human perception, what other kind of perception is there?

Let me clue you in. Say I punched you in the face.
Now, maybe your face was numb, and you didn't feel it. Maybe my fist was numb so I didn't feel it.
Maybe you weren't looking and didn't see it, or you were listening on headphones and didn't hear the smack.

Maybe all sorts of things could muddle our information gathering processes and create confusion as to what happened. But that doesn't change the fact that I punched you in the face.

RoninAngel

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« Reply #10 on: June 01, 2009, 12:32:50 pm »
But you didn't. You're too far away.  :P

But Seriously. You would have to actually punch me in the face first. And then I would have to remember it. And then I would have to make a concious descision on whether to be affected and aknowlege your douchebaggy action or not. Otherwise, the "fact" that you punched me in the face would be irelevent to both our lives and therefore meaningless.

Also, the nature of reality is not so finite. See What the Bleep Do We Know. The way matter, space, and time actually function is changed depending on how we percieve it.

http://www.whatthebleep.com/
 

« Last Edit: June 01, 2009, 01:36:37 pm by RoninAngel »
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Xshu

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The Big Bad Religion Thread
« Reply #11 on: June 01, 2009, 02:17:39 pm »
Quote
And then I would have to remember it.
No you wouldn't. Maybe you were asleep and the punch didn't wake you up. Even if you both got amnesia, that wouldn't change the fact that you got punched.

Quote
Otherwise, the "fact" that you punched me in the face would be irelevent to both our lives and therefore meaningless.
You imply that truth must have meaning. If a tree falls in the woods and nobody is around to hear it, it would produce the vibrations that would be perceived as sound if anyone were around to hear it, and just because nobody knows it fell doesn't mean it won't be on the ground next time someone sees it.

Yes, we are currently beyond perfect understanding physics, but simple facts do still exist. I think, therefore I am. Note that I didn't say that I am human or that I am on the Earth. Technically my whole life could be a lie for all I know, but even then the fact is that I do exist and the simple fact that I could think otherwise automatically disproves my nonexistence.

charles

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The Big Bad Religion Thread
« Reply #12 on: June 01, 2009, 04:22:57 pm »
"If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?"

heh, the whole discussion on perception is an old one, althought the question of the tree falling in the forest wasn't actually ment to be one which boggled the mind but one to prove or note a point about perception.  Good old George Berkeley's theory of Immaterialisim which he said "To be is to be perceived".  He believed that if things ceased to be perceived by anyone or anything, then they ceased to be.

So working on the theory of Immaterialisim, if both CDSM and Ronin were, somehow, unable to perceive the punch and no-one else was able to perceive it, then it never occured.  :P

Of course, it also gets into a whole debate on subjective matter and terms.  One might ask "what does constitute a punch?" to which the vast majority of us would believe "a closed hand extended or swung by the arm with reasonable force, in an effort to transfer the force through the knuckles to anything with which it connects" Others could argue more or less speed, that it must connect and not simply "punch the air", that it much connect with a living creature as opposed to an inanimate object or that the closed state of the hand is irrelevant. So the "fact" of the punch occuring is twisted even more as we are the ones who define what a punch is.

...But yeah... Those religious guys hu?  ;D
« Last Edit: June 01, 2009, 04:24:31 pm by charles »
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CrystalDragonSpaceMarine

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« Reply #13 on: June 01, 2009, 04:46:08 pm »
So working on the theory of Immaterialisim, if both CDSM and Ronin were, somehow, unable to perceive the punch and no-one else was able to perceive it, then it never occured.  :P

There was a cat nearby. He witnessed it.
But we'd never know, because cats can't talk.
Or at least don't want to talk to us.

RoninAngel

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« Reply #14 on: June 02, 2009, 12:14:05 pm »
Quote
And then I would have to remember it.
No you wouldn't. Maybe you were asleep and the punch didn't wake you up. Even if you both got amnesia, that wouldn't change the fact that you got punched.

Quote
Otherwise, the "fact" that you punched me in the face would be irelevent to both our lives and therefore meaningless.
You imply that truth must have meaning. If a tree falls in the woods and nobody is around to hear it, it would produce the vibrations that would be perceived as sound if anyone were around to hear it, and just because nobody knows it fell doesn't mean it won't be on the ground next time someone sees it.

Yes, we are currently beyond perfect understanding physics, but simple facts do still exist. I think, therefore I am. Note that I didn't say that I am human or that I am on the Earth. Technically my whole life could be a lie for all I know, but even then the fact is that I do exist and the simple fact that I could think otherwise automatically disproves my nonexistence.

prove it.
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Xshu

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« Reply #15 on: June 02, 2009, 06:14:49 pm »
Quote
prove it.
I think therefore I am. By virtue of my ability to experience, I must exist. Something or someone in a state on non-existence is by nature incapable of experience. Furthermore: you think, therefore you are. The simple act of thinking up a counterpoint proves that you do think, which automatically proves that you are.

Another point: things I experience through my senses are all related and constant. For example: if I see a wood fire I can smell it and it always smells like a wood fire, I can feel it and it always feels warm (or very painful), I can hear it and it always makes the same cracking and popping sounds, I can see it and it's always roughly the same orange, blue, yellow, and red, and I can taste the smoke in the air and it always tastes gross. As my senses all relate to one-another and are constant, and as the simplest explanation should always be assumed correct (Occam's Razor), I assume that my senses are not lying. If my senses are not lying, the simplest explanation is that they are in fact experiencing what they tell me they are experiencing, which means that reality must exists so that they too exist.

In addition, your claim that the reality and facts do not exist is counter to all scientific and philosophical evidence to the contrary. The burden of proof, thus, is on you.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2009, 06:19:28 pm by Xshu »

RoninAngel

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« Reply #16 on: June 04, 2009, 12:25:36 pm »
Quote
prove it.
I think therefore I am. By virtue of my ability to experience, I must exist. Something or someone in a state on non-existence is by nature incapable of experience. Furthermore: you think, therefore you are. The simple act of thinking up a counterpoint proves that you do think, which automatically proves that you are.

Another point: things I experience through my senses are all related and constant. For example: if I see a wood fire I can smell it and it always smells like a wood fire, I can feel it and it always feels warm (or very painful), I can hear it and it always makes the same cracking and popping sounds, I can see it and it's always roughly the same orange, blue, yellow, and red, and I can taste the smoke in the air and it always tastes gross. As my senses all relate to one-another and are constant, and as the simplest explanation should always be assumed correct (Occam's Razor), I assume that my senses are not lying. If my senses are not lying, the simplest explanation is that they are in fact experiencing what they tell me they are experiencing, which means that reality must exists so that they too exist.

In addition, your claim that the reality and facts do not exist is counter to all scientific and philosophical evidence to the contrary. The burden of proof, thus, is on you.

Look, there is no way to prove that I'm not a brain in a jar and you're not just a figment of my imagination. Your like, "I think therefore I am" but that's just what a character in a dream would say. I have also never even seen your face, so until I meet you in person, there is no way to know your not just a very sophisticated computer program. Regardless of how improbable it may be, there is always the possibilty that none of this is real. If I want to function in society I may take day to day "facts" for granted, but that's on me. There will aways be a shadow of a doubt. If you think about it, that's exactly how it is for any person. No one can see inside your head so no one can ever really know what you're thinking, and ultimently if your not a just robot programed to act in a galacticly large The Truman Show. I may think I am real, (assert as much) but only I know for sure, and there is no real way to prove it to you. Inside our own heads, we remain completly isolated. I also might be a robot and not even know it.
Ultimently, we must accept the reality we are presented with, but we cannot expunge the lingering doubt that none of this is real.   
« Last Edit: June 04, 2009, 12:28:57 pm by RoninAngel »
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charles

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The Big Bad Religion Thread
« Reply #17 on: June 04, 2009, 03:37:34 pm »
I have also never even seen your face, so until I meet you in person, there is no way to know your not just a very sophisticated computer program.   
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EDIT: Alright so they weren't computer programs or even robots. I know, don't hit me with facts when we're questioning if the world is even real.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2009, 03:39:44 pm by charles »
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Xshu

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« Reply #18 on: June 05, 2009, 09:53:08 am »
Quote
I may think I am real, (assert as much) but only I know for sure, and there is no real way to prove it to you.
That was really my whole point. The "I think, therefore I am" argument means that even if nothing else is real, at least you know that you are, and that if you exist then some kind of reality must exist for you to be real in.

Quote
Ultimently, we must accept the reality we are presented with, but we cannot expunge the lingering doubt that none of this is real.
The outside chance that something is maybe possible doesn't mean facts aren't facts. Just because there's a statistically impossible chance that the moon is made of cheese doesn't mean the fact that it isn't is any less valid. The fact that we've managed to invent anything at all means that the laws of reality are at least vaguely constant with what we think they are.

Ged

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« Reply #19 on: June 05, 2009, 12:14:32 pm »
Let me clue you in. Say I punched you in the face.
Now, maybe your face was numb, and you didn't feel it. Maybe my fist was numb so I didn't feel it.
Maybe you weren't looking and didn't see it, or you were listening on headphones and didn't hear the smack.

Maybe all sorts of things could muddle our information gathering processes and create confusion as to what happened. But that doesn't change the fact that I punched you in the face.

Your example only works because we all know that you punched him in the face and because you've assumed that's what happened. It looks rather like you're going,

'How do you know there are facts of the matter even when we can't verify them?'
'Well assume that I actually...'
And then you've just assumed the conclusion to your argument.

While it's consistent that there may be a fact of the matter out there, equally there may not; and as long as our experiences remain ultimately subjective any claim we make to the fact of the matter can be 'true' only by virtue of coincidence.

Personally I much prefer the term consistent. Things aren't 'true,' they're simply consistent with everything else within a certain world view. It seems more easily supportable.