Author Topic: Chapter 21: Discussion  (Read 165484 times)

lightandmagic

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Re: Chapter 21: Discussion
« Reply #510 on: June 18, 2009, 05:47:08 am »
Alright everyone! Brion has said that there's nothing out of character about the last page and that we will obviously get what's going on soon! I think we all need to just calm down and wait for the next couple of pages before we all start walking out. This may be more about establishing what kind of character Glyph is and what he's truly capable of, more than it is about May and Bern. I really doubt that Brion would have his girls act so completely out of character without good reason. Even without magical influence, there's no way May would let this situation go ahead (especially with such an out-and-out pervert like Glyph, who she knows Bern doesn't trust or even like) without at least talking to Bern to see how she felt about it first.

Still to the posters that are wondering why people are getting upset, I do understand where they're coming from. I have several lesbian friends who get extremely upset by tv programs and stories that establish characters as being lesbian (not bi, lesbian), then have said character flippantly and rather casually sleep with a man/men. I've had conversations about it with them and the main gripe seems to be that it just adds to the very generalised and very wrong opinion that all lesbians simply can't resist a good man when he's there in front of them, all sexy and what-not. They find it offensive and demeaning. Many gay people struggle for a long time with their sexuality and it's something they've been through a lot to come to terms with as well as coming out of the closest to friends and family afterwards. It often takes a lot more thought for a gay person to establish their identity than a straight person and to cast that all aside without an extremely strong and solid reason/plot behind it... well, that's just... disrespectful, I suppose is the word.

No one is denying that sexual experimentation happens sometimes, but to casually throw a character's established sexuality to the wind in, what appears to be, such a blasé male fan service type situation... I think that is why so many people are angry.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2009, 05:57:20 am by lightandmagic »

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Re: Chapter 21: Discussion
« Reply #511 on: June 18, 2009, 07:41:37 am »
Can't the girl just be horny for once?  :-*

Kiran

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Re: Chapter 21: Discussion
« Reply #512 on: June 18, 2009, 07:56:22 am »
I agree with lightandmagic on this.
This just feel so out of character for Bern and even for May.
Bern is not a lesbian who is looking for her sexual identity,she knows what she wants,she knows she only prefers girls,at least that's my opinion by reading this comic from start,we don't get even one hint that Bern could be interested in guys or that she would be damaged and she would hate guys by some kind past incident which changed her into lesbian,I always though her sexuality was just like a straight guy,liking only girls and even not bothering by looking at guys.
I must admit that it would be a total shock for me if what happened so far would be done without binding Bern and May free will,not influenced by any magic.
Making a lesbian straight in two pages is just somehow very wrong in my eyes,like author is violating Bern character to please some horny male readers who would prefer Bern to be just like May,and that's what is bothering me,this whole chapter just looks like a cheap porn flick.
Can't the girl just be horny for once?  :-*
Well so far we learned that only May gets Bern horny not a guy she can't stand,it's just look so unnatural,first Bern is looking surprised but after seeing it's Glyph she get's even more horny and kiss him,if it was real Bern who would get horny by making out with May,Glyph would be dead by now :P

It's just some my personal ranting,cause beside this comic I read frequently,few other things(comics and mangas) I follow dissapointed me lately.
But I'm curious to see with few next pages what Brion planned as conclusion for this chapter.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2009, 07:57:57 am by Kiran »

LonestarF1

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Re: Chapter 21: Discussion
« Reply #513 on: June 18, 2009, 08:29:08 am »
Personally I believe that one or more people in that scene aren't who they appear to be.  Who knows, I could be wrong, that's just what seems to be the case.

peace,
CR

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Re: Chapter 21: Discussion
« Reply #514 on: June 18, 2009, 10:26:03 am »
Agree with a previous poster... this update really brought some of us out of the woodwork. X3

Outrage and wonder (and for some, disgust) were obviously the emotions that were to be evoked by the most recent update.
Well done, Brion. You have succeeded. :)

Can't wait for tomorrow's update!

lightandmagic

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Re: Chapter 21: Discussion
« Reply #515 on: June 18, 2009, 11:07:58 am »
Can't the girl just be horny for once?  :-*

I agree with Kiran. Yes, Bern can be horny, clearly she's horny for May. But she is an established lesbian. Lesbian's do not just randomly jump in the sack with men simply because they're 'horny'.

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Re: Chapter 21: Discussion
« Reply #516 on: June 18, 2009, 11:44:48 am »
I don't think that having sex with a man, when you're lesbian should mean that you're straight.
Same thing for a straight person having sex with a gay person.

I always thought of sexual orientation as a general preference really.
I have a boner...*plays a song*

Darkhand

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Re: Chapter 21: Discussion
« Reply #517 on: June 18, 2009, 11:49:30 am »
I know Brion can be very sensitive when it comes to the comments on his forum, so let me say this:

"Brion!  Don't let people scare you away from writing the story you intended!  If someone stops reading a story because of a simple twist, they didn't care much about the story anyway."

Besides, I doubt they'll stop anyway.  It's like the story of the radio host...  An old lady called in and said that she absolutely hates the show.  She listens every day and couldn't find a single thing good to say about it.  She was disgusted.

The host was absolutely delighted and thanked her for listening in every day. :D

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Re: Chapter 21: Discussion
« Reply #518 on: June 18, 2009, 12:02:29 pm »
I don't think that having sex with a man, when you're lesbian should mean that you're straight.
Same thing for a straight person having sex with a gay person.

I always thought of sexual orientation as a general preference really.

Indeed. If a lesbian has sex with a man it doesn't mean she's straight. It means she's bi. Or pan.

What's with people not understanding what the word "lesbian" means?
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Re: Chapter 21: Discussion
« Reply #519 on: June 18, 2009, 12:07:29 pm »
<nitpicking>Another proof for the water being magical is Maytags left hand on Berns shoulder....</nitpicking>

This.  THIS!!!!

No really, just pointing it out again for Brion to future-correct, since yet another big mistake-o is getting lost in the RAGING FIRES OF DEBATE.  Good catch Belhalhar.  :-)

Also to the pages and pages of debate:  sheesh.  Wait for page 26 before postulating?  Yes, yes, that takes all the fun out of it, I know.
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Valenthesial

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Re: Chapter 21: Discussion
« Reply #520 on: June 18, 2009, 12:17:23 pm »
Quote from: hunterxemyn
I know I'm beating a dead horse here, but I had to comment on this page. XD
I'm hoping to god that this is a daydream of Glyph or it's not really happening and if it is.. there's a spell or something. I don't know. I don't mean to be petty, but I think the writer is better than to apparently just throw this complete.. twist in Bern's personality there. XD I trust the writer!
Haha, he's probably laughing at all of us losing our heads over this..

Couldn't agree more.

When I first read the page I was disgusted.
It seems to me at first, that Bern has made a sudden 180 degrees turn: instead of characteristically punching the pervert in the face, she kisses him.
The apparent reason for that extremely odd behavior being "talking with May about becoming a little bit more open minded".

Knowing Berns character, that reason alone is way too weak for such a change of heart - she have such strong beliefs on that subject (disgusted with men, wanted monogamous relationship, interested in May only and last being rather uptight and hard to change her beliefs).
It is to be expected that Bern will make a very long change of character and eventually become just A BIT less uptight for May's sake, but such changes cannot occur overnight, and definitely not over 1 minute!

After rereading the page and a bit of thinking, I decided that my sudden urge to vomit was most likely misplaced  ;D
First of all, Brion handle his characters really well during the entire series, which is probably why we're all here reading this comic :P a sudden and unreasonable change of character has never happened before.
Secondly, there are many factors here that might be at work.

- The weird owner that at least to me seems like he WANTS them to use the bathroom, possible to peep or perhaps something different. I was halfway expecting to see him or his slave peeping on them if nothing else. It also wouldn't surprise me if there was something fishy in the water, so to speak.

- Moss who didn't reveal himself to May when he saw her. Last we saw him he was on really good terms with her, but he also was a potential suitor who desired her.

- Glyph actually BEING in the bathroom, which is LOCKED FROM THE INSIDE according to Bern. Magics or other sort of illusions are at work here, even if it's just him turning invisible to wait in that room.

So basically, I just expect a good continuation that will explain what happened in the bathroom, whether it's a dream sequence, hallucination, love-potion in the water, mind affecting magic or something better that I just didn't think about! :P

P.S.
Enough with boring characters like Glyph... Nessy should wake up already  :-*

RoninAngel

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Re: Chapter 21: Discussion
« Reply #521 on: June 18, 2009, 12:19:42 pm »
So yeah.

I Think this is the thought that Glyph is having while he's wanking.

I am not convinced that Bernedette would just let a semi random guy fuck her.

I mean his approach is pretty rad though (No words, just action and complete confidence.)

Also I would like to highlight the fact that the artist very conspiciously doesn't show his penis, so Glyph might actually be a female in drag.


@Razzly. In the United States, people seem to think that bisexuals don't exsit. If you're into chicks and you shag a dude, all your previous sexual experiances are rendered meaningless. This flies in the face of actaully imperiacal knowedge that says that someone may identify as homosexual or heterosexaul and have occasional lovers of thier nonprefered gender or identify as bisexual but only ever have sex with one gender for whatever reason. I blame the media.
see "no bisexuals" @ www.tvtropes.org


« Last Edit: June 18, 2009, 01:52:51 pm by RoninAngel »
I got 99 problems but a nymphomaniac jester girl ain't one.

lightandmagic

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Re: Chapter 21: Discussion
« Reply #522 on: June 18, 2009, 01:15:42 pm »
I don't think that having sex with a man, when you're lesbian should mean that you're straight.
Same thing for a straight person having sex with a gay person.

I always thought of sexual orientation as a general preference really.

*nods to Razzly* I think my gay and lesbian friends would strongly disagree with you there (particularly my more feminist lesbian friends). The battle cry for gay people has always been that sexuality is not a simply choice or a casual 'preference' subject to change whenever.
People with with more fluid sexuality like Maytag do not identify themselves as 'lesbian', because they aren't. Lesbian's do NOT flippantly or randomly sleep around with men. Sleeping with men would mean that the girl is either bisexual or pansexual.
So yes, lesbian? In the words of Mel from Queer as Folk: "Not if you're f*cking men you're not!"
(That's not to say that sometimes something might happen with a member of the opposite gender... be it a drunken thing or a gay person happening to fall for someone of the opposite gender. Sometimes it does happen.)

But this is completely off topic. I don't think Bern's sexuality is the issue as much as the out of character-ness of the situation (which I'm sure will have a reasonable answer!). I think it would be almost as out of character for Bern had a random woman snuck into the bath given her shy and possesive personality!
Quite simply, Bern would not be so easily turned on by a naked man, particularly one whom she had only moments ago raged at for being a pervert invading her privacy. She was horrified at the idea of him seeing her naked in the carriage, so it would be a complete contradiction for her to enjoy it in the bath! That's why there must be something funny afoot.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2009, 01:57:25 pm by lightandmagic »

RoninAngel

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Re: Chapter 21: Discussion
« Reply #523 on: June 18, 2009, 01:29:14 pm »
And We don't even know that Glyph really has a penis.
Or testicals.

I mean it'd have to be really tiny to be completly obscured by his thigh like that.

And if he has a micropenis, that's almost the same as shagging a girl, AMIRIGHT! ;)
« Last Edit: June 18, 2009, 01:31:04 pm by RoninAngel »
I got 99 problems but a nymphomaniac jester girl ain't one.

Tyris

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Re: Chapter 21: Discussion
« Reply #524 on: June 18, 2009, 01:41:12 pm »
*facepalm*
You can't look dignified when you're having fun.

RoninAngel

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Re: Chapter 21: Discussion
« Reply #525 on: June 18, 2009, 01:43:27 pm »
OOOOH YEAH!
You know what I'm talkin' about!  ;)
I got 99 problems but a nymphomaniac jester girl ain't one.

Dragonizer

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Re: Chapter 21: Discussion
« Reply #526 on: June 18, 2009, 01:46:15 pm »



@Razzly. In the United States, people seem to think that bisexuals don't exsit. If you're into chicks and you shag a dude, all your previous sexual experiance are rendered meaningless. This flies in the face of actaully imperiacal knowedge that says that someone may identify as homosexual or heterosexaul and have occasional lovers of thier nonprefered gender or identify as bisexual but only ever have sex with one gender for whatever reason. I blame the media.
see "no bisexuals" @ www.tvtropes.org

Tell that to the idiotic girls in my school who say they're bisexual "just to be cool".

RoninAngel

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Re: Chapter 21: Discussion
« Reply #527 on: June 18, 2009, 01:49:51 pm »
I myself identify as bi, even though i've only ever had sex with other men. But not for lack trying let me tell you. :(

And it sounds like the girls at your shcool are too young to be anything.
I got 99 problems but a nymphomaniac jester girl ain't one.

Dragonizer

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Re: Chapter 21: Discussion
« Reply #528 on: June 18, 2009, 02:04:37 pm »
I'm in high school, and I'm sure there's plenty of girls who, uh, get around. It's still rather stupid at this age, really. All those idiots aside, I think I know only two people who are "truly bi" and not just claiming to be because "it sounds cool" or whatever.

And I wouldn't define being any way as having sex with whatever gender (not by itself, anyhow). It's just what appeals to you, I guess.

krid

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Re: Chapter 21: Discussion
« Reply #529 on: June 18, 2009, 02:08:03 pm »
When I saw this page of the comic, my initial thought was "wtf?". Not a shocked "WTF?", but the head cocking befuddlement kind.
When I saw this page of the forum, my initial thought was *facepalm*.

First: Drawing conclusions with a dearth of evidence is laughably myopic. We know what's happening, but we don't know why or how. I can think of a half dozen or so reasons off the top of my head that would explain this without requiring character breaking.

Second: It saddens me that people are getting all in a huff over how a lesbian might not actually be a lesbian. In real life it is quite common for non-heterosexuals to "be in the closet" and identify as heterosexual, no matter where on the Kinsey scale they fall. There's no reason to do some author bashing because you think that they might have a bisexual identifying themselves as a lesbian. I would have to say it's actually fairly offensive to take such a stance, as double standards are one of the worst problems faced by gender and sexuality issues.

That said, I'm just going to list a few possible explanations which are not mutually exclusive:
1: The bath is enchanted or tainted.
2: Bern wants to change as much to make Maytag happy as Maytag wants to change to make Bern happy.
3: Bern is not strictly a lesbian, but represses heterosexual thoughts and desires.
4: This is not a depiction of physical events.
5: One of the compatriots of Moss is interfering with the situation
6: Glyph is not male.

Some of these are more likely than others, some of them are more socially acceptable than others. 1, 4, 5, and 6 have all been discussed here, and 3 has been touched on, so I'd like to go into a bit more detail on 2 and 3.
3: We don't know much about Bern's past, and she's not one to talk about her feelings and beliefs. It's not unreasonable for her stated sexuality to not match her actual sexuality. She's almost certainly primarily homosexual, but we don't know beyond that.
She might have some past trauma that made her repress heterosexual urges. If that's the case, then the most likely cause would have been growing up in a brothel and gaining her understanding of male+female relationships from the workers and customers. Then there's the possibility of a failed romance or a betrayal.
There are countless possible causes, but if it turns out to be a cliche like rape then I'm going to have to pull out a sock full of dimes and beat the plot back into shape via retcon-by-force.

2: Bern was willing to give up her lifelong dream so that she could honestly and openly in an honest relationship with Maytag instead of treating it like a shameful secret. Maytag was willing to give up her sexual ideals for Bern's comfort. It's not unreasonable for Bern would be willing to push herself to do things that are outside her nature in order to meet Maytag halfway. It wouldn't be the first time that somebody was willing to put their own sexuality aside for the sake of their partner, after all.
If number 3 has some merit, then this would be more her overcoming her issues than trying to change how she feels.

@Razzly. In the United States, people seem to think that bisexuals don't exsit. If you're into chicks and you shag a dude, all your previous sexual experiance are rendered meaningless. This flies in the face of actaully imperiacal knowedge that says that someone may identify as homosexual or heterosexaul and have occasional lovers of thier nonprefered gender or identify as bisexual but only ever have sex with one gender for whatever reason. I blame the media.
see "no bisexuals" @ www.tvtropes.org

Here's the link to that: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NoBisexuals

RoninAngel

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Re: Chapter 21: Discussion
« Reply #530 on: June 18, 2009, 02:13:14 pm »
Well yeah. That's the age where folks are figuring stuff out. Plus being "bisexual" may be yet another way to rebel from their parents/distiguish them from thier peers.

Protip though: what you see on American TV in no way reflects the vast human experiance of actual sexuality. Just about everyone has some experments/experiances with their nonpreferd gender (Even if If all they'll admit to is "I once touched another kids balls in Hebrew Shcool"  ::) or "They where really drunk"  ::) ).  

« Last Edit: June 18, 2009, 02:18:44 pm by RoninAngel »
I got 99 problems but a nymphomaniac jester girl ain't one.

Foof

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Re: Chapter 21: Discussion
« Reply #531 on: June 18, 2009, 02:57:50 pm »
You could take notice of Glyph's face.  I mean, I'm sure he thinks hes one bad ass sex machine, but his expression is very stoic.  This could very well be an illusion.  I'm almost wondering if this is going to be like the scene in Vampire Hunter D with all the illusions, everyone sees something different.  It would definately be smart to assume there is some sort of Magick involved.  There's definately something odd about this hotel...
In any case, I know Brion's got some sort of scheme planned out. >D

CrystalDragonSpaceMarine

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Re: Chapter 21: Discussion
« Reply #532 on: June 18, 2009, 03:10:54 pm »
And We don't even know that Glyph really has a penis.
Or testicals.

I mean it'd have to be really tiny to be completly obscured by his thigh like that.

And if he has a micropenis, that's almost the same as shagging a girl, AMIRIGHT! ;)


Maybe he's hard already and it's just following his leg. For all you know it goes all the way to his knee.

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Re: Chapter 21: Discussion
« Reply #533 on: June 18, 2009, 03:19:21 pm »
it's kind of interesting that, when deplorable acts of violence and cannabalism are committed in Flipside, it doesn't incite nearly as much as an outrage as something sexual in nature.

also eocene, hello from SA.  ;)

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Re: Chapter 21: Discussion
« Reply #534 on: June 18, 2009, 03:23:40 pm »
@CDSM:
Yeah but his balls would hang down. Like, mine always flop around whenever I'm naked. I have pretty big balls though. My boyfriend balls are smaller then mine, but they hang down at all times anyway. It could be a Peekaboo trope, but i perfer to think that glyph is a really a woman.

 :P
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PeekaBoo
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akashayi

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Re: Chapter 21: Discussion
« Reply #535 on: June 18, 2009, 03:25:11 pm »
Oh Glyph, I have to say you pass really well. XD

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Re: Chapter 21: Discussion
« Reply #536 on: June 18, 2009, 03:26:41 pm »
@CDSM:
Yeah but his balls would hang down. Like, mine always flop around whenever I'm naked. I have pretty big balls though. My boyfriend balls are smaller then mine, but they hang down at all times anyway. It could be a Peekaboo trope, but i perfer to think that glyph is a really a woman.

 :P
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PeekaBoo

Maybe he's cold.

Foof

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Re: Chapter 21: Discussion
« Reply #537 on: June 18, 2009, 03:36:30 pm »
Hm...who knows.  Though it didn't really seem like Bern was looking down below.

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Re: Chapter 21: Discussion
« Reply #538 on: June 18, 2009, 03:47:34 pm »
@CDSM:
Yeah but his balls would hang down. Like, mine always flop around whenever I'm naked. I have pretty big balls though. My boyfriend balls are smaller then mine, but they hang down at all times anyway. It could be a Peekaboo trope, but i perfer to think that glyph is a really a woman.

 :P
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PeekaBoo

Maybe he's cold.

Or Maybe he is just a really tall elven year old.  :P
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Testicals#Pubertal
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Re: Chapter 21: Discussion
« Reply #539 on: June 18, 2009, 03:50:31 pm »
it's kind of interesting that, when deplorable acts of violence and cannabalism are committed in Flipside, it doesn't incite nearly as much as an outrage as something sexual in nature.

also eocene, hello from SA.  ;)

Kind of like real life, huh?


Or Maybe he is just a really tall elven year old.  :P
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Testicals#Pubertal


That explains a lot, actually.