Author Topic: Chapter 21: Discussion  (Read 165401 times)

Tropico

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Re: Chapter 21: Discussion
« Reply #90 on: April 29, 2009, 04:55:53 pm »
It's probably only been like a day, maybe two.

Are you kidding me... She's not being emo then... she's pretty much the only one on the page who's acting halfway normal  :o

And yet!! I'm aware that this kind of stuff works differently in comics, so yeah, either way :)

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Re: Chapter 21: Discussion
« Reply #91 on: April 29, 2009, 05:46:53 pm »
Okay, Maytag. You made a promise to permanently go cold turkey on the hanky-panky to Bern. I'd shutter on thinking what would happen if you broke your promise...

charles

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Re: Chapter 21: Discussion
« Reply #92 on: April 29, 2009, 06:04:50 pm »
It's probably only been like a day, maybe two.

Are you kidding me... She's not being emo then... she's pretty much the only one on the page who's acting halfway normal  :o
It's been about 4 days since Kin died.
3 DAYS LATER

But yeah. It'll still be quite fresh in her memory.  But Heck, she started this thing with her Nagelring.  Can't help it if her actions just brought Bern and Maytag closer together rather than further apart as she was aiming for.
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erana

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Re: Chapter 21: Discussion
« Reply #93 on: April 30, 2009, 01:42:35 pm »
Charles said:
Quote
But yeah. It'll still be quite fresh in her memory.  But Heck, she started this thing with her Nagelring.  Can't help it if her actions just brought Bern and Maytag closer together rather than further apart as she was aiming for.

That's exactly what I had in mind when I said she just outemoed Crest. Everyone has the right to be devastated when a close one dies (I should know), but choosing to lash out against the ones who actually tried to help you deal with the grief is maybe not the most mature thing to do.

Please note that doing such thing in the anger of the moment while they are trying to comfort you is actually quite common, but doing that a few days later, in cold blood, out of petty jealousy, is not something that... everyone... would do. No, Suspiria is NOT being the one behaving "normally" in the car. Personally, I feel Crest -of all people!- is the only one doing so.

Also, crying "not fair" when one's actions have undesired consequences, instead of taking responsability for/dealing with one's said actions, is SOOO emo it's just a few "call for atention" wrist cuts away from Nessy dressing in black, wearing too much black eyeliner, and writting depressingly bad poetry. The pretentious nickname she already got covered.

So I don't like Suspiria. So what? I use the screen name of a good sorceress, disliking petty, selfish ones is a given ;-)

akashayi

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Re: Chapter 21: Discussion
« Reply #94 on: April 30, 2009, 03:17:52 pm »
There are plenty of stages to the grieving process, and being emo is only part of it.

Oh, and Bandage Face is still == Bandage Face

Qtalda nothing :P

akashayi

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Re: Chapter 21: Discussion
« Reply #95 on: April 30, 2009, 03:49:56 pm »
Not to be confused with griefing.

BRB SHOOTING MY TEAMMATES.

Xshu

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Re: Chapter 21: Discussion
« Reply #96 on: April 30, 2009, 05:55:58 pm »
Quote
For a free bird to be caged in the spirit of "love", which is really just another word for "need" or at least codependency, seems more like a tragedy to me.
The act of sacrificing yourself for those you love, or letting them go without a fight because you want them to be happy, seems to say otherwise. Love is entirely too complicated to be summed up as simple "need". People have been trying and failing to describe love for thousands of years.

erana

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Re: Chapter 21: Discussion
« Reply #97 on: May 01, 2009, 04:09:26 am »
Quote
For a free bird to be caged in the spirit of "love", which is really just another word for "need" or at least codependency, seems more like a tragedy to me.
The act of sacrificing yourself for those you love, or letting them go without a fight because you want them to be happy, seems to say otherwise. Love is entirely too complicated to be summed up as simple "need". People have been trying and failing to describe love for thousands of years.

I could crack a half-hidden reference about sacrifying in behalf of the one you love, but that would be too obvious, given my name. So I won't. Let's just say that Xshu is right and Umber is not, renouncing to things in behalf of your loved one is not codependency, *IS* love.

Codependency is something much more extreme, it ammounts, once all is said and done, to not having a life of your own and expecting the other also not to have it. I know because I had someone being codependent about me (and I'm not talking about the character I'm roleplaying, I'm talking real world) and it was pretty hard. As opossed to that someone loving me (and vice-versa), for whom I agreed to things I formerly thought never would agree (and you all get your minds out of the gutter! I'm not talking dirty here!).

erana

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Re: Chapter 21: Discussion
« Reply #98 on: May 01, 2009, 04:13:47 am »
Not to be confused with griefing.

BRB SHOOTING MY TEAMMATES.

Only valid answer to that being,

LOL (DUST PLZ)

UmberIsSexy

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Re: Chapter 21: Discussion
« Reply #99 on: May 01, 2009, 07:57:55 am »
Well I still say that what we usually call love is a trade, which I would say is on the same continuum as codependency.  Perhaps it's not necessarily what we think of as an unhealthy level of codependency, but it's still along the same lines. 

I have X and Y that I need, emotionally, physically, etc.  You have A, B, and C that you need.  We are compatible if we can fill most of the other's needs fairly well, so we partner up.  However it usually ends up that there are also needs LMNOP which one or the other has that are not entirely met.  Perhaps those can only be met by other people, or perhaps one or the other person is more needy than the other can fulfill, or they have like, unfulfillable needs due to emotional problems (which might result in what we call unhealthy codependency).

I still say it's a trade, more than some mystical superawesome unexplainable thing. 

There's also 1) infatuation, the stage of love where you lose your mind and can't stop thinking of someone, which I suspect is a result of a procreationally-directed instinct and 2) don't know the word but there's something psychologically that happens when you care about something over a period of time, that it becomes entertwined with the sense of self, which definitely happens in long-term relationships, so those two components are added in there, making "love" appear to be something more than what it is. 

But the truth is, if you're not terribly needy, you're not going to feel a whole lot of what people talk about as being "Love", especially after the infatuation phase is over.  This is why a lot of relationships involving people who are not thinking people fail or become unnecessarily dramatic, as people try to get back to the feeling of intense attraction for the other..  it's pretty impossible to maintain a relationship based on emotion alone.  Putting your intention and care into it brings out a whole nother set of emotions, which we also lump in with "love".

Spiritual teachings indicate that the highest attainment for humans is not a monogamous relationship, even a "soul mate" relationship, though it is possible to get very high through that route, if done with the right mindset.  This rings true to me.  At higher levels, the person does not experience emotional need which must be met by another person.  They are able to only give.  Their heart overflows with love that they can only give to others.

I don't have all the answers, and I'm not really explaining myself fully enough.  Maybe people will differ with my opinion, but please forgive me if I don't debate a whole lot more.  It's not that I don't want to, it's just a lot of typing! :)  edit: sorry, that's a butthead thing to say.  It's almost just like "I think I'm right, so I'm not gonna talk about it anymore".  I mean, tell me I'm wrong if you want, when I find the time I will probably rebut. /edit

then again, maybe I'll neglect what I should be doing some more and keep debating!
« Last Edit: May 01, 2009, 11:44:06 am by UmberIsSexy »

Emp_Dragon

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Re: Chapter 21: Discussion
« Reply #100 on: May 01, 2009, 11:35:42 am »
Well, Umber, you've got one more with similiar ideas over here ;D

Abstract Vagabond

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Re: Chapter 21: Discussion
« Reply #101 on: May 01, 2009, 12:50:20 pm »
Hey, look. The chapter title.  :D

contreras

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Re: Chapter 21: Discussion
« Reply #102 on: May 01, 2009, 02:03:48 pm »
Hey, look. The chapter title.  :D

he said it! he said it! :family guy:

akashayi

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Re: Chapter 21: Discussion
« Reply #103 on: May 01, 2009, 02:14:53 pm »
My prediction for the future: Poor Suspiria, who's completely passed out from all that magic, will suddenly wake up naked in a bed with twins.

erana

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Re: Chapter 21: Discussion
« Reply #104 on: May 01, 2009, 03:05:16 pm »
I can certainly picture Maytag having a popcorn moment on that...
http://www.menagea3.net/d/20080624.html


akashayi

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Re: Chapter 21: Discussion
« Reply #105 on: May 01, 2009, 03:11:13 pm »
Hahahaha.... That's super funny, Erana. Though I think Maytag seems more the type to join the fun.

erana

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Re: Chapter 21: Discussion
« Reply #106 on: May 01, 2009, 03:51:51 pm »
Well, the whole point can be resumed in "not anymore"... so Bern, dear, now it's up to you the whole task of providing us with random Maytag nudes and  sex scenes. I know it's a hard job, but someone has to do it!

charles

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Re: Chapter 21: Discussion
« Reply #107 on: May 01, 2009, 05:20:53 pm »
Well, thats day 1/3 travel over... Considering the last 9 chapters took about 2 days, this carriage ride could take a while before we're finally in Eschelon and beginning to resolve Bern's quest for Grant and the 2nd sword.
CLAN OF THE CATS IS MAKING A COMEBACK! JUNE 8th.  BE THERE!

Xshu

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Re: Chapter 21: Discussion
« Reply #108 on: May 02, 2009, 02:56:16 am »
zlol xshu is on a rant again surprise surprise

Quote
Well I still say that what we usually call love is a trade, which I would say is on the same continuum as codependency.  Perhaps it's not necessarily what we think of as an unhealthy level of codependency, but it's still along the same lines. 


Well sure, in the same sense that a hobby is somewhere along the same lines as an addiction, or a knife is somewhere along the same lines as a sword. It should be fairly obvious that comparing love to codependency would set off some bells in peoples' heads.

Quote
I have X and Y that I need, emotionally, physically, etc.  You have A, B, and C that you need.  We are compatible if we can fill most of the other's needs fairly well, so we partner up.
 

That sounds like dating to me. That doesn't sound anything like love. Anyone who "decides" to fall in love like that is really not getting the concept of love.

Quote
However it usually ends up that there are also needs LMNOP which one or the other has that are not entirely met.

Yes, dating is a pain in the ass.

Quote
Perhaps those can only be met by other people, or perhaps one or the other person is more needy than the other can fulfill, or they have like, unfulfillable needs due to emotional problems (which might result in what we call unhealthy codependency).


Seeing multiple people seems to me like it would be ultimately unsatisfying; especially if they were also seeing other people. You're trying to fill all of your needs, but you're doing it with multiple people. Now if you need M you have to go to one person, and if you need B you have to leave and seek out another. And what if person with B and N is busy with one of her other lovers? Well, now you're shit out of luck. It seems to me like it would be easier to just find one person who you want to spend the rest of your life with and stick it out with them, and just accept that maybe M and N are just not going to happen. Love does require work, and compromise is part of that work.

Quote
I still say it's a trade, more than some mystical superawesome unexplainable thing. 

The two are not mutually exclusive. Love can easily be described as a trade while retaining all of its ineffable properties.

Quote
There's also 1) infatuation, the stage of love where you lose your mind and can't stop thinking of someone, which I suspect is a result of a procreationally-directed instinct and 2) don't know the word but there's something psychologically that happens when you care about something over a period of time, that it becomes entertwined with the sense of self, which definitely happens in long-term relationships, so those two components are added in there, making "love" appear to be something more than what it is.

How does that make it "appear" to be more than what it is? I believe it simply is what it is, without need of appearing any greater. You make it sound as though an emotional attachment so powerful that it becomes integrated into your sense of self is somehow being blown out of proportion. I argue that this in and of itself is remarkable. The only other emotion capable of doing that is hate, which occurs much less frequently.
 
Quote
But the truth is, if you're not terribly needy, you're not going to feel a whole lot of what people talk about as being "Love", especially after the infatuation phase is over.

I somehow get the feeling that your definition of "terribly needy" is not that of the general public. Neither of my parents are needy people, and they maintain a relationship based on their love for one-another. The same can be said for my grandparents, and the parents of all of my friends whose parents are still together. You seem to be grouping love and crushes into the same category. That's silly. Love is something beautiful that's nurtured for a long period of time. Infatuation that doesn't lead anywhere is a crush or "puppy love".

Quote
This is why a lot of relationships involving people who are not thinking people fail or become unnecessarily dramatic, as people try to get back to the feeling of intense attraction for the other..

A lot of relationships fail because the people in those relationships aren't compatible. That's what dating is: you spend time with prospective mates until you find someone you don't ever want to leave your life, and then you foster that relationship. Staying with one and trying to force it, or not even really paying attention to who you're with and "falling in love with love" is what causes divorce.

Quote
it's pretty impossible to maintain a relationship based on emotion alone.
 

That's only true in the Romeo and Juliet sense of "if people are gunning for you, love is not going to pull your ass out of the fire". Every happy marriage on Earth is evidence contrary to your claim, and I personally have seen my share of happy marriages.

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Putting your intention and care into it brings out a whole nother set of emotions, which we also lump in with "love".


Wait, what? No, the fact that love is an amalgamation of different emotions is part of what makes it special to begin with. That's what makes it so ineffable. There are entirely too many things one feels while in love to properly describe what's happening.

Quote
Spiritual teachings indicate that the highest attainment for humans is not a monogamous relationship, even a "soul mate" relationship, though it is possible to get very high through that route, if done with the right mindset.

"Spiritual teachings"? What teachings are these, exactly? Buddhism is the only religion I've ever heard of that treated romantic love like an obstacle. Well, Buddhism and Jedi. By contrast, Christianity goes as far as to claim that whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. Every polytheistic religion I can think of has at least one god dedicated to love. I'm not sure there are many religions that don't glorify love in some way or another.

Quote
This rings true to me.  At higher levels, the person does not experience emotional need which must be met by another person.  They are able to only give.  Their heart overflows with love that they can only give to others.

Buddhism, then?
« Last Edit: May 02, 2009, 02:59:28 am by Xshu »

CrystalDragonSpaceMarine

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Re: Chapter 21: Discussion
« Reply #109 on: May 02, 2009, 09:30:23 am »
Christianity doesn't like romantic love either. It's all about "unconditional" love, which is basically just compassion.
There's a couple verses saying it's better not to get married because then you'll love your wife more than God, or something.

Xshu

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Re: Chapter 21: Discussion
« Reply #110 on: May 02, 2009, 01:46:55 pm »

CrystalDragonSpaceMarine

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Re: Chapter 21: Discussion
« Reply #111 on: May 02, 2009, 02:24:32 pm »
I disagree.

Aside from the Song of Solomon ones, and a couple others, those aren't about romantic love.

What I referenced was 1st Corinthians 7:
Verse 32: But I would have you without carefulness. He that is unmarried careth for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please the Lord:
Verse 33: But he that is married careth for the things that are of the world, how he may please his wife.

charles

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Re: Chapter 21: Discussion
« Reply #112 on: May 02, 2009, 04:22:25 pm »
Might I suggest we take the debate on LOVE to the debate area.

TOPIC CAN BE FOUND HERE
CLAN OF THE CATS IS MAKING A COMEBACK! JUNE 8th.  BE THERE!

Brion Foulke

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Re: Chapter 21: Discussion
« Reply #113 on: May 02, 2009, 10:13:50 pm »
Good idea, thanks Charles.

Xshu

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Re: Chapter 21: Discussion
« Reply #114 on: May 03, 2009, 02:42:34 am »
Oh god I'm a topic derailer. I need help.

RoninAngel

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Re: Chapter 21: Discussion
« Reply #115 on: May 03, 2009, 12:19:47 pm »
I can certainly picture Maytag having a popcorn moment on that...
http://www.menagea3.net/d/20080624.html


Yeah. I am going to check that comic out. Looks entertaining. Thank you erana!  :-*
I got 99 problems but a nymphomaniac jester girl ain't one.

charles

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Re: Chapter 21: Discussion
« Reply #116 on: May 03, 2009, 06:11:21 pm »
@Ronin: yeah I read it and its a good laugh.

ON TOPIC: Hey! I just noticed that the Bed & Breakfast sign appears to be floating.  Its not posted in the ground there, its held down to the ground with a chain.
CLAN OF THE CATS IS MAKING A COMEBACK! JUNE 8th.  BE THERE!

CrystalDragonSpaceMarine

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Re: Chapter 21: Discussion
« Reply #117 on: May 04, 2009, 11:16:42 am »
Oh no you don't, Glyph. You don't get Nessie all to yourself.

Furcas

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Re: Chapter 21: Discussion
« Reply #118 on: May 04, 2009, 01:01:54 pm »
WHAT, WILL, CREST, DO?

On one hand, Glyph and Suspiria are probably colleagues, while Crest and Suspiria barely know each other, so it would be a little weird to insist on holding her.

On the other hand, Suspiria's shown pretty clearly that she's grossed out by Glyph.


Hmmmmm!


RoninAngel

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Re: Chapter 21: Discussion
« Reply #119 on: May 04, 2009, 01:18:46 pm »
Hmmm.... Glyph seems like he is being nice and taking care of Suspira.


I wonder if we should trust him?   ??? :-\ >:(
I got 99 problems but a nymphomaniac jester girl ain't one.