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1

Flipside Discussion / Re: Chapter 43: Discussion

« on: May 27, 2015, 07:16:11 am »

He is defenseless now. He grabs with his left arm and is static due to holding her, Bernadette has her right arm free, she can also move her sword sticking in his stomach up, down, slice away.

Unless he crushes her throat right away (he should given his strength) Bernadette can now decide his fate: Chop off the arm, stab him wherever she wants to. This is a very bad situation he has moved himself into. He probably can use his right to smash in Bernadette's face or something, if he is fast enough.

This is a situation where we probably see Bernadette's slit-second-gut reaction (what a lame pun...gut reaction...) how she treats him now. One way or the other the fight is going to end.

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Flipside Discussion / Re: Chapter 43: Discussion

« on: May 18, 2015, 07:45:36 am »

I see his "pride" in the most negative form: His pride he has won so far. His pride in his skill which lets him win. His pride not to admit to defeat and weakness.

He is not understanding he has to compromise or should surrender or even take a less aggressive approach in fighting Bernadette because his pride won't let him, it forces him to attack to win.

Bernadette has a much more modest pride, I'd call it more "respect for others" and "self respect" than the "pride" her current foe shows.

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Flipside Discussion / Re: Chapter 43: Discussion

« on: May 16, 2015, 10:54:13 am »

The way the fight now develops makes clear this is not a Deus Ex Machina-Weapon. As I put forward somewhere earlier Bernadette with her weapons was a too big threat to the current foes - and as such they lost easily (and due to surprise; they expected her to be a push-over when facing three A-rank (or S-rank) enemies). Bernadette would have to face stronger enemies later in the story against whom she'd not as easily win due to her eqiupment being superious and she'd have to fight and adapt.

We got too see how powerful the swords comnined with her fighting style are, now the real show starts: one of the foes *did* survive the initial surprise and he's now showing what it takes to "could fight S-ranked matches". He is strong and has a powerful weapon, but he is an adapting fighter.

He does just that, he adapts to Bernadette and forcing her to rely on something else but her +5 Swords of Defense (or whatever you want to call those things). This fight is going to be interesting, probably with both involved characters.

As for "why" is he still fighting to the last breath: I can very well imagine two reasons.
A) he does have a warriors honor or at least resolve, he wants to surive. At least he does not want to be at the mercy of a foe he does not know and as such attempts to go through with it, as much as he can. HE does not know her, does not know how far she would go, he only knows she "needs the credit, as everyone else around here". Going on as long as he can is not a stupid decision.

B) we know the people running the arena can be quite mean when it comes to putting pressure on people (and Warden does that as well, as we have seen). It is not impossible they told those fighters "You're in for a fun-fight. You'll easily win against this women, smash her good for entertainment. But in case you lose... well, you better. not. lose. You'd get downranked/your credit will get voided if you lose!" and as such they had all the incentive to pressure. If Warden judged Bernadette right (which she probably did) she knew that Bernadette would try to negotiate her way out or let everyone go who surrenders are talks about a draw, so she made sure from the beginning the intended foes would press her as much as possible and not talk to her, not take any deals and mercy from her.

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Flipside Discussion / Re: Chapter 43: Discussion

« on: May 13, 2015, 05:46:34 am »

(Fair enough. I don't really want to talk to him anyway, even to apologize) [...]

That is your right but I want to point out that Brion is developing the story just as I think it would based on my interpretation what I saw. What I outlined is what the current arc is is about, no matter if you want to see it or not. Does that make Brion the same degradory term you used on me as well in your eyes? Stating that Bernadette is not perfect and that she runs into issues due to her specific way of not being perfect? That she has to adapt in some way to get through this?

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Flipside Discussion / Re: Chapter 43: Discussion

« on: May 02, 2015, 03:16:10 am »

Ignore this troll. Supposedly Bern is a leech for having friends.

I already stated this was unworthy of an answer.

Now I'm gonna talk about change and growth. Bern has clearly been developing and growing through this entire battle. But because she hasn't adapted to this fighting you are unhappy. Not all change is desirable. You think it would be awesome to see her go all bloodthirsty but this isn't who she is, and this place is sick.

Not my assessment is what is the issue here, it is your interpretation of what I want. This is not what I want and I never stated so. You form quick opinions on what people want based on your assumptions what they want without seeing you've went too far down the road and are plain wrong. The rest of your post falls in the same category.

In terms of change being bad, we routinely think being at the top of a corporate ladder is the  ideal of success. Is it?

I don't. You're assumption to be able to and eagerness to lecture me on this is what drives you into the wall in regards to this debate.

Bern is not a vampire or a leech. She is a decent person trying to remain a decent person in a climate that is void of decent people (like a person who believes in justice being surrounded by crooked lawyers).

She is a very decent person, but as I wrote above she is not seeing the reality of what profession she took on. She thinks she can get through with this by staying unbent, but that is a wrong assumption and only leads to others fetching the coals from her fire (without her having asked for that, though). Do I want her to be brutal, merciless, a crazy killer? I already said what I think of that.
Bernadette is ready to die for her believes and this is what she is aiming for here. It is commendable she is willing to go this far but my impression is not that she made that conscious decision.
My impression is that her stance is she'd rather die than to adapt to the arena (which is fine and the moral high ground) but this has not reached her conscious thoughts and she still maintains the illusion that "staying unbent" is a path that leads her through the arena (or her life). She is wrong in regards to that and it is others around her who enable her to maintain this high ground.
If she'd actively life "I rather die than adept, Polly, please, let me do this" it was different.
But she's willing to die - and pull everyone with her. Not because she is a bad person or does it on purpose, but because she has not realised that, in effect, that is what she is doing.

Now, come on, call me a troll and hater... only because I disagree on what to make of Bernadettes stance here.

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Flipside Discussion / Re: Chapter 43: Discussion

« on: May 02, 2015, 03:06:12 am »

You people are unbelievable. There's a disagreement between us how to see the character Bernadette and because it's disagreement it's down to "trolling" and "haters gonna hate". There seems to be an excessive assumption the world works in "Black and White": I don't dislike the character Bernadette, I don't hate her. She is a great character, she is just doing things here where I disagree to what you think. Reducing what I wrote to "she is a leech because she has friends" is something I consider unworthy to answer.

So, as long as you agree Bernadette is "awesome in all regards" you can even bluntly state it is "because she is a female, red-headed hottie" besides any actual reasons or psycological interpretations or character interpretations within the scope of the story. You have your stance because all the wrong reasons, which, to me, invalidates this stances completely.

Yeah, think of me as trolling or hating. I thought this was a smart forum but apparently it's just the same male "Hot Chicks are awesome because they are hot chicks" you're finding everywhere on the internet. I'll go on enjoying Flipside (as well as Bernadette and her character arc)... you are free to drool because she's drawn scantly clothed and dismiss any disagreement with your assessment as "trolling"... Flipside is smarter than that and I had hoped the readers drawn to it would be as well. I admit I was wrong in at least a few cases.

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Flipside Discussion / Re: Chapter 43: Discussion

« on: April 30, 2015, 07:16:19 am »

Aaand again, as always, Bernadette is rescued by another person.

She does not grow.
She does not adapt.
She does not face reality.

Someone else is again getting the coals from the fire for her (in the latest round it's first Warden who offers the "chance" without Bernadette doing anything to get (not even speaking of "earn" it), then it's Polly who pledges to pay the price for the "chance", now this time her father who shows up with the Deus-Ex-Machina-Sword).

I'm very interested in where this plot arc is going, so far I have no clue. The message so far merely is "Bernadette is carried through everything by other people".

You seem to have a very narrow idea of what reality is, then.

This is where I abandoned the idea I might want to reply to your post.

Life is about change and adaption. The question is according to what values do you do that and this is where it gets really tricky. The problem is that Bernadette refuses to acknowledge that life is about adaption, not according to the values the arena wants or to Pollys or to Warden's or whatever, she refused to acknowledge that at all.

And her strategy is not successful, life destroys Bernadette due to this. Or, it does not destroy it because there are always external sources that pay the prices for her stance. In this way and very meanly formulated: Bernadette is a leech, she is a vampire that lives of the sacrifice of others.

No one demands she debases herself but she maintains her values at the cost of others covering her ass. Over and over again. She's like a child who thinks her way of living is working and ok but neglects that is only because her parents are constantly cleaning up behind her.

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Flipside Discussion / Re: Chapter 43: Discussion

« on: April 27, 2015, 10:39:18 am »

Aaand again, as always, Bernadette is rescued by another person.

She does not grow.
She does not adapt.
She does not face reality.

Someone else is again getting the coals from the fire for her (in the latest round it's first Warden who offers the "chance" without Bernadette doing anything to get (not even speaking of "earn" it), then it's Polly who pledges to pay the price for the "chance", now this time her father who shows up with the Deus-Ex-Machina-Sword).

I'm very interested in where this plot arc is going, so far I have no clue. The message so far merely is "Bernadette is carried through everything by other people".

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Flipside Discussion / Re: Chapter 43: Discussion

« on: April 18, 2015, 12:12:29 pm »

Why is the old dude not butt naked like everyone else?
If we're doing this, we might as well go all the way and have wrinkly old man nutsack scrape all over the floor.

Thank you for that completely horrifying image. I will have nightmares forever.

Well this is silly, the swords are doing all the work for her. All she has to do is block.

I suppose you'd still say that if you were in a cage match with three trained killers. Blocking is rather tough to do when you're outnumbered. I'm an amateur blunt weapon (usually staff) user. I know a few quarterstaff moves from watching people, and some sword skills, so I can technically fight "two sworded" with bamboo. I was at a farm and we were goofing off, and I could beat most of the other people fighting with bamboo in single combat, and block effectively. However, as soon as they came at me from two sides, dividing my concentration was pretty difficult, and I routinely got clobbered. This by the way was against kids less than half my age, meaning when it was just one, I could block and counter without hurting them seriously. From two directions, I lost to kids.

There is actually way more skill involved in blocking than attacking. Most people can win at chess by being hyperaggressive, but winning a game of the same where you simply counter all advances, and then "oh, checkmate" yea that's a bit harder.

Also, I think there is a learning curve to these swords. They do in fact operate on repulsion (yay, I was right!) but initially all they did was halt the force of the attack. What she's doing now is effectively pushing the attacks back with her own strength.

In all likelihood, the limit to the swords is her limit. As in, if someone were to use a continuous energy pulse (think force lightning from Star Wars), and keep solid pressure going, Bern might have trouble pushing back the attack. No, the swords aren't absorbing the energy, they are pushing stuff back.

These swords probably couldn't smash a wall. They are a defensive not offensive sword.  The reason these swords smashed, the reason the spells reflected?

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AttackReflector

The sword smashed because its own magically enhanced force rebounded.

The spells turned back because of the same.

Because of this, her enemies rather than being "high-level" (it wouldn't make a difference) either use nonmagical tricks (the extending staff may have been just a retractable staff with a taser attached) or have real weapon skill. It's like Inuyasha's Backlash Wave, it probably has a stronger effect the more powerful magic the attack, so ironicallly "high-level" attacks are precisely what opponents will avoid using.

Also, btw, these weren't unrecognizable effects. Bolo Girl used a razor wind effect, the old guy used a flame sphere.

No one cares about "mid level" or "high level", it's just to compare skill and power. Bernadette now easily defeats foes presented as strong. She'll meet much stronger foes lateron. Note this fight was basically S-categorized. What does that tell us about foes that Bernadette will have to actually fight lateron?

And in regards to level: Brian started the thing in this comic with his "class 3 casters" and whatnot to grade magical power. We can talk in regards to abstract concepts.

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Flipside Discussion / Re: Chapter 43: Discussion

« on: April 17, 2015, 01:53:00 pm »

Well this is silly, the swords are doing all the work for her. All she has to do is block.

You've made the swords too powerful, Brion. At most they should absorb a fraction of the magical energy depending on how well the attack is blocked, which would then increase the sword's attack power, or something, so Bern would have to actually strike her foes.

I somewhat do agree. I did not expect her to easily defeat those guys - and surely not due to the swords alone. But if we look at this from a greater point of view: those three guys here were among the biggest fish in this tank - but Bernadette is going to fight much more dangerous and capable foes later.
If you want it this way: the foes here are like lower midlevel or even midlevel and we're getting to see just how powerful Bernadette with these swords is. And then, when she's back in the story, she'll *need* this kind of power when she faces really powerful enemies. This fight here is just so she and we can get used to it. The shock will come when some foes resist her newly found superpowers - and when something really is at stake (not just her life that she would give willingly if it has to happen).
Imagine the world or Maytag being at risk at the hands of some really high-level foes.

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Flipside Discussion / Re: Chapter 43: Discussion

« on: March 14, 2015, 02:55:35 pm »

You might have something there, maybe the Warden has an inkling as to what the swords can do and wants to force Bern into a position where she -must- block or Polly gets squished?  Would also be a situation where Bern could discover what the swords do together as a pair.

My theory is that the Warden recognised Bernadettes ability, but also her weakness: Innocence.

Bernadette lives the live of a fighter, but has found a way to maintain her innocence in it. She has a code that goes way beyond a usual Knight's Code of Honor, she is basically a pacifist with swords.
Her entire fighting technique reflects that. Be passive. Be evasive. Do not risk. Do not become guilty.

But if you are against a foe you cannot win othervise, you must risk. You must seize a moment. In the right moment, in that split second, you do not need to be innocent, passive, concerned, you must act, dash forward, take the price. Shut out the thoughts and the concerns, shut out passivity. It is impossible for Bernadette to do that, she rests in herself - this is good, but not for a fighter.

But as I said it goes beyond this: with her style Bernadette also does not risk to become "guilty" in any way. She does not risk having to kill a feo. She fights, but the killing? That do others, people who fight with her and are more rash. She does not risk doing something morally questionable, does the other person deserve death, no matter this fight? Maybe, maybe not. Bernadette has no problem, she stays back.
To use something visual: In her profession she might get literally her hands bloody but her whole fighting style is there to minimise the chance to metaphorically get her hands bloody (funny inversion of how it usually goes).

If Bernadette wants to unlock her maximum potential - and thus her ability to survive as much as she can; something she needs here in this arena - she somehow has to lose a part of that innocence. She has to understand she won't make it with her full conscience intact, that while she is a good person, she has to do bad things if her profession is a fighter and if she wants to survive.

Warden offers her that before she puts her in a fight where she a) needs to use it for b) the price to have a perspective to get out of the arena.
Polly takes away all offers from Warden. The offers all have one thing in common (as was pointed out already): they make Bernadette suffer through unfair hardship without killing her. In short: They take a part of innocence and leave a black mark where it was, so Bernadette must come to peace with that black mark. This can then fuel the power she needs for her chosen profession.
Polly gets Bernadette into the arena without all that.

What is left here where Bernadette can "suffer, but not death. Lose something that leaves a black mark on her soul". There is only one thing left. Polly.

I think this is at least what Warden thinks and I find it possible that when Warden starts talking next she will make Polly understand, which leads to Polly "doing all she has to do protect Bernadette". She'll dash in a sacrifice herself. Being killed in those cirumstances? Yes, totally is on par with the options that were offered to Bernadette.

I can't read all of this because I'm on a touchphone and the superbig keyboard and supersmall lettering is eating the page.

You guys all agree that innocence is a weakness. Okay, story time.

This reminds me of something my dad told me about his father in law. Much like the song Rude, he wanted the daddy's blessings. Her dad however dismissed him as someone who was a "dreamer" who didn't know about how life could be cruel (my mom basically worked herself through college, probably because he was a jerk and wouldn't pay). Trust me, he knew, he even told me as much.  I know. All of us know. But... unlike this (ahem, a-hole) he seemed to know that life could be better. He wanted to be a priest because he wanted to work for a better world. A world where people Didn't Have to bloody their hands on a regular basis.

Bern didn't just choose  this path because it was easy. In fact, she was willing to break even her vow of fidelity (yes, reread the comic, bern and may swore they wouldn't cheat on each other, meaning the one option that she could pick was B, not A). She willingly gave up her dream as a knight btw, so the whole safety and innocence bit is not really valid (I dunno if you mentioned safety, but you seem to be under the impression that her life until now has been soft choices). Bern would want a world where Polly doesn't have to go through what she's about to. But she does. The one thing she can do for Polly is keep her request to not sink to the level of these people. She doesn't need a lesson in brutality, in fact she'd rather die a hundred times over than become the sort of crazed person the crowd and her target seems to be. If you think she's weak for that, well... can't say much to you.

Bern has not given up, she is still fighting, as a knight, not a common fighter. She's studying her opponents, and if she can win, she will. That said, this big overhead swing looks a bit ominous.

You are wrong if you think that we consider "innocence" to be a "weakness". You are dead wrong. It is not.

But if you want to be a warrior - it is. To pick up your example: Bernadette did not become a priest. She become a warrior. She did not become a farmer, living a normal life. She became a warrior.

She chose a bloody profession but is not able to admit that. It is not about innocence in general, it is about her not getting what life she chose and what that might take from her. She beliefs she can "get through" and she is right - unless she ends up in a really, really bad situation. An exceptional one with no way out but to fight with her whole being, at all costs. Such a situation is just where she ended up and she better starts to realise that that if she wanted to maintain her innocence and not be forced to do "bad things" she has picked the wrong life.

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Flipside Discussion / Re: Chapter 43: Discussion

« on: March 14, 2015, 12:56:24 am »

You might have something there, maybe the Warden has an inkling as to what the swords can do and wants to force Bern into a position where she -must- block or Polly gets squished?  Would also be a situation where Bern could discover what the swords do together as a pair.

My theory is that the Warden recognised Bernadettes ability, but also her weakness: Innocence.

Bernadette lives the live of a fighter, but has found a way to maintain her innocence in it. She has a code that goes way beyond a usual Knight's Code of Honor, she is basically a pacifist with swords.
Her entire fighting technique reflects that. Be passive. Be evasive. Do not risk. Do not become guilty.

But if you are against a foe you cannot win othervise, you must risk. You must seize a moment. In the right moment, in that split second, you do not need to be innocent, passive, concerned, you must act, dash forward, take the price. Shut out the thoughts and the concerns, shut out passivity. It is impossible for Bernadette to do that, she rests in herself - this is good, but not for a fighter.

But as I said it goes beyond this: with her style Bernadette also does not risk to become "guilty" in any way. She does not risk having to kill a feo. She fights, but the killing? That do others, people who fight with her and are more rash. She does not risk doing something morally questionable, does the other person deserve death, no matter this fight? Maybe, maybe not. Bernadette has no problem, she stays back.
To use something visual: In her profession she might get literally her hands bloody but her whole fighting style is there to minimise the chance to metaphorically get her hands bloody (funny inversion of how it usually goes).

If Bernadette wants to unlock her maximum potential - and thus her ability to survive as much as she can; something she needs here in this arena - she somehow has to lose a part of that innocence. She has to understand she won't make it with her full conscience intact, that while she is a good person, she has to do bad things if her profession is a fighter and if she wants to survive.

Warden offers her that before she puts her in a fight where she a) needs to use it for b) the price to have a perspective to get out of the arena.
Polly takes away all offers from Warden. The offers all have one thing in common (as was pointed out already): they make Bernadette suffer through unfair hardship without killing her. In short: They take a part of innocence and leave a black mark where it was, so Bernadette must come to peace with that black mark. This can then fuel the power she needs for her chosen profession.
Polly gets Bernadette into the arena without all that.

What is left here where Bernadette can "suffer, but not death. Lose something that leaves a black mark on her soul". There is only one thing left. Polly.

I think this is at least what Warden thinks and I find it possible that when Warden starts talking next she will make Polly understand, which leads to Polly "doing all she has to do protect Bernadette". She'll dash in a sacrifice herself. Being killed in those cirumstances? Yes, totally is on par with the options that were offered to Bernadette.

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Flipside Discussion / Re: Chapter 43: Discussion

« on: March 13, 2015, 11:30:24 am »

Warden is going to kick Polly in at the right moment.

Warden knows Bernadette is very srong but thinks she can get out without taking risks - in body as well as in morals. This is what this is about: Bernadette has to learn she will not make it out whole, body as well as her conscience are going to be tarnished, a warrior cannot be "nice". Polly took away that lesson from Bernadette and now her death (clubbed to death) will need to teach Bernadette the lesson she needs to survive this.

Go forward. Risk. Risk your body. Riks your conscience. You will not make it intact. If you want to fight - you will get your hands and soul bloody. You cannot stand there, be nice, be passive, pretend you are better. Maybe you are better - but this is not a normal job. This job costs at the high end. So far Bernadette did not face this, her whole fighting style reflects this lack of facting the nasty truth that the life of a fighter is not one of happiniess and innocence.

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Flipside Discussion / Re: Chapter 43: Discussion

« on: March 11, 2015, 10:37:29 pm »

Ok, this is going in a direction I feared.

Polly took away all options Bernadette had to get a grimmer look on fate, one she needs in really close, serious situations. Something that makes Bernadette notice she cannot fix eveything with being nice, something that makes her see that as a fighter, the world can be really brutal. Something that hurts her, but does not maims and kills her. Polly took that away. This was discussed.

Right now there is only one thing left Polly can do so Bernadette learns what the Warden offered her. She can die.