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Comics Discussion => Flipside Discussion => Topic started by: SAGG on October 10, 2016, 07:06:44 am

Title: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: SAGG on October 10, 2016, 07:06:44 am
Who's this again? I know I've seen her before....
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: mittfh on October 11, 2016, 03:19:41 pm
Who's this again? I know I've seen her before....

Courtesy of the Chapter List, this one's "The Dark Cell's Third Phase, Pt.II", so she's Corona, Lehm's glamorous assistant and current Dark Cell Progress Record Holder...
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: SAGG on October 13, 2016, 06:15:36 am
Oh, okay, thank you....
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: mittfh on October 13, 2016, 01:06:04 pm
....and we're onto Page 1, with the incongruous sight of Lehm, Corona and Maytag having a nice cup of tea while leaning on a giant plush teddy bear wearing a very tall and thin top hat...
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: monimoni on October 14, 2016, 01:31:31 pm
And so it goes. Well, that's not too far from the truth now is it?
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: sunphoenix on October 14, 2016, 07:36:25 pm
Ouch! That's messed up! Poor Maytag!
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on October 16, 2016, 09:45:10 pm
And so it goes. Well, that's not too far from the truth now is it?

Hmmm, I'd say the opposite.

Bern has effectively cheated on her. I think she would understand where she is coming from, since she is not a huge hypocrite.
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: monimoni on October 17, 2016, 02:27:04 pm
Cant wait for the next page!
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on October 20, 2016, 03:50:48 pm
This feels like a good idea in theory, but a stupid idea in actual practice. There is something to be said for discipline. There is also something to be said for finding a method that actually works. If they brought May there to be a crabon copy, there was no point to it.

Also, seriously? Subjecting yourself to hell for five straight years? I know she's into Lehm, but he doesn't even seem to care about her.

I think the actual secret to this something more along the lines of substitution. As in, she knows that Bern wouldn't tell her that, so anyone else's disapproval wouldn't matter. So she simply changes the nightmare to something she can shrug off.
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: monimoni on October 21, 2016, 12:08:58 pm
^ Agreed. This lady is nuts. Just the thought that you have to go through phase 2 again and again ...
So in theory you could accept the reality that the third phase gives you, say in advance? Say she could somehow replace her current "reality" with the one where she's been already dumped. Is that where you're pointing at? That could be something, since I don't know what else besides losing Bernadette could be a nightmare for Maytag.
Another thing I'm curious about is what happens after you're "beaten" by dark cell, i mean, how do you get out of there? At what point does dark cell "decide" it's time to go? Do you magically wake up outside?
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on October 23, 2016, 01:10:45 pm
Well, crazy lady has a sort of grappling weapon to fish people out in the earlier stages, but phase 3 and beyond? I think the the thing just boots you out. I think the dream idea they mentioned earlier is accurate. The pain doesn't last, the fear goes away, and anything you carry becomes part of the reality.

If you get defeated, you probably panic and the thing fades out.

If this is the case, then having a better dream than getting rejected all of the time should eventually make a difference. Crazy Woman (that's Corona's name now) is thinking of "getting used" to the bad. What she should be doing is like this Joel Osteen says. Dream Bigger. To be more positive, to fight the fear that tells her that she'll be rejected with what she knows about Bern.

Once again, I apologize for Joel Osteen.

Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: monimoni on October 24, 2016, 01:33:22 pm
The problem with that, if I get it right, is that you can't, under any circumstances, remember anything from before entering dark cell. However it seems to have a "rejection" theme. I'm wondering if it would change anything if you were to convince yourself that what happened in phase 3 is real, and instead of visualizing it over and over and walking, just let it go, accept it and move on. For crazy lady this might be difficult since she has to see Lehm everyday, but Maytag has no contact with Bernadette. You would have to be cold, with incredible control over your emotions, and slightly crazy, so Maytag seems like the right person. I mean, she's been chopping bodyparts like it's no big deal, resisting all kinds of magic effects, and once she's even threatened to kill Bernadette which was being used as a human shield by a rapist, if I remember correctly. I guess it depends how badly she wants to go through with it.

Also, this just came to mind: so Lehm Rhodes said that they created a person with no feelings (Melter) specifically for phase 1, however later Maytag proved that it's actually a physical test rather than an emotional one, so Melter could just as well pass phase 1 with enough training. Then phase 2 is just.. sucking it up and moving forward. What would Melter see in phase 3?
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on October 24, 2016, 10:05:38 pm
It would have to not about remembering or knowing. It would be a sort of believing without having even the proof that you have inside. Sort of like if you have suddenly forgotten all the happy times during a breakup. In this situation, you actually have a similar thing going on, the depression overshadows the happy memories and you lose your head.

But you still believe in a chance for either other without remembering anything. Sort of "I wanted to be with her for a reason. I don't remember that now, but I believe this isn't her. She isn't this hateful person who wants me harm. I believe in her even if things feel tough now."

A sort of unconscious devotion. Reminding yourself doesn't work. Trying to convince yourself this is a dream doesn't work. Conditioning "works" but only by being completely stubborn and crazy (and I have a feeling this isn't how May works). It isn't about remembering, it's about her saying, "no matter how many tries, I won't give up on you." Despair is not defeated by memory, its opposite is hope. And love.

About this approach, this is an extremely bad idea. May is used to being alone, it wouldn't make her upset, not long term. She could cope. But May has Bern as her better half. She was cold and uncaring as a person, before she met Bern. This would be a regression, not a progression.

 Also, it wouldn't work. If she removed one fear, another would take its place, and another and another. If phase 3 was ignoring things and moving forward, phase 3 would be like phase 2. Corona says that they were able to move "halfway" through phase 3, after 5 years. I do not believe this is actually the case. She has no way of knowing this without crossing into the next phase, does she? In fact, if it is truly despair, the area actually has NO space. Meaning if you tried to bluster through like Corona, the illusion would likely reappear again and again. If you killed your emotions, the illusion would disappear and then you would walk and walk forever (replacing emotional despair with limitless space until you give up). This is not something you walk past at all, this is something you overcome.   

It may be hard without her memory, but she has to believe, even when she can't remember why.

Update: I guess if I had to imagine this I would look at it as two squares of paint next to each other. One is black, the other white. They can't turn the other one entirely black or white, but they can manage grey. The Dark Cell acting with despair on May is like black getting dumped on white. "The world sucks, politicians are evil, and there are people out there that want to hurt me. And I'll never be loved." This is usually how it plays out, because it is difficult to keep a positive attitude when you see depressing things all around you. But this is precisely what May has to do, to turn the black grey with her extreme whiteness. Kinda like this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuC9yxJ6_pY

Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: monimoni on October 26, 2016, 01:59:12 pm
Okay, I see. True, I forgot where she said she's halfway through.
Heh, May is on to something.
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: mittfh on October 26, 2016, 02:45:48 pm
Okay, I see. True, I forgot where she said she's halfway through.
Heh, May is on to something.

Heh, May can be quite devious - but given Corona's been at it for five years, she's probably stuck in a proverbial rut, so needs to be shaken out of what is now her comfort zone. So May getting under her skin (so to speak) is exactly what Corona needs if she's to get any further in The Dark Cell.
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: Stargoat on October 28, 2016, 09:17:33 am
I wonder if Maytag is being a big bluffer.
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on October 29, 2016, 07:54:59 am
I think May is going to use Corona as a guinea pig, set her up for completing the 3rd phase and then see what happens to her.
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: vintage on November 04, 2016, 07:17:34 am
On page 11 - does Maytag have a birthmark on her lip? I've never noticed before.
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on November 04, 2016, 11:30:00 am
She has what appears to be a benign mole on her lip.

I believe Maytag has the answer, given that she isn't completely freaking out here. But conditioning definitely isn't it. Getting used to bad stuff happening only works in the short term. I think the answer has something to do with what May said a page before about relying on the unconscious mind.
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: monimoni on November 06, 2016, 06:51:43 am
Maybe the "mole" is just a sparkle (implying her lips are shiny)?

Why is she helping out these freaks again?
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on November 06, 2016, 05:53:05 pm
Too much contrast.

Mostly money. But she's also on some level curious as to whether this can be done.
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: sunphoenix on November 07, 2016, 06:58:09 am
I can't tell honestly if Maytag is shocked at Lehm's statement or is she just getting moist thinking about how long his fingers are! :)

{I've got such a dirty little mind...}
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: mittfh on November 07, 2016, 02:15:41 pm
I can't tell honestly if Maytag is shocked at Lehm's statement or is she just getting moist thinking about how long his fingers are! :)

{I've got such a dirty little mind...}

Given May's figured out that Corona loves Lehm (hence the knife twisting on pp6-7), it shouldn't really be a surprise to her that the feelings are mutual.

Hmm... I wonder how far Lehm actually got within The Dark Cell - assuming he's actually had a go...
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: MaronaPossessed on November 09, 2016, 11:40:40 am
Hey Brion if you're going through something, take it easy alright?
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on November 09, 2016, 12:16:07 pm
Awwww, thanks Maytag!  :-* Funny that she has no idea what she's cheering us up about.

This election has screwed with alot of ppl. I don't mind the candidate (except that he can't even take power without answering court charges), but my friends are very upset.

Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: MaronaPossessed on November 09, 2016, 01:29:20 pm
Awwww, thanks Maytag!  :-* Funny that she has no idea what she's cheering us up about.

This election has screwed with alot of ppl. I don't mind the candidate (except that he can't even take power without answering court charges), but my friends are very upset.
I am upset to be honest but I ain't gonna let that change me or my thoughts about this country. People are already going crazy and moving out of the country. Really? It's only been one day. You guys have more anxiety problems than I do if that's the case.

I'm glad this election is over though. What better way to destroy the connection between your friends and your loved ones than politics? It's been stressful and I have to say the worst one ever.

http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sp9eoj (more thoughts)

But I don't respect Donald Trump. He has to earn it and I treat everyone equally, no matter the fame or position. You earn respect, not buy it.
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on November 11, 2016, 04:31:59 am
I honestly dont he "bought" anyones respect. If anything, for awhile we got letters from him explaining his stance and asking for contributions. He sold respect, not bought it. I know youve been told alot by the media and stuff about how this was a corrupt event. But he actually won to alot of minority votes vs other Republican types. As explain in Armageddon: How Trump Can Win, I think it was called, he is popular because he is an outsider candidate, and because  people are increasingly sick of the establishment. This is guy who made his own money through hotels and casinos, versus making it but taxes and corrupt politics.

If I may, I'm going to draw the comparison between this and It's A Wonderful Life. We see the protagonists cheap housing thing, and we see Potts with his strip clubs and casinos. The world does need cheap houses. But the clean cut town they introduced doesnt work quite that way in real life. The real life equivalent is Habitat for Humanity, which is fine except it takes unspoiled forests and turns them into low rent housing. We need the idealistic SJW, but ultimately we also need a person like Potts to set up things people want to do, or we have plenty of housing but no industry, and poor ppl on govt assistance because there is no work.

Moving on...

May hit the nail on the head. The reason they know about the distance of the 3rd phase is because people walked past it. And died on the 4th phase. If I had to guess, they found a way of ignoring their despair and continued on. But if I had to venture a guess? I think the distance is actually a trap. You aren't supposed to bypass your despair. You are supposed to face it. And overcome it by proving it wrong or something. Not doing so, activates the trap.

The other reason they possibly died? The despair caused them to commit suicide. But I honestly can't imagine this happening, since the memories come back after you leave the Dark Cell.

Story Update: May, c'mon, it's obvious that the thing we don't know anything about is obviously an oppressive situation. We must prevent this injustice at all costs. Especially since we didn't bother to research the issue in full. Totally worth creating monsters for test subjects. Because, ummm the truth.  ;D Also, how do we know that Crazy Cook Lady isn't the cause of the Qualia?
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: sunphoenix on November 17, 2016, 05:45:11 am
If Lehm is concerned that humanity is someone's pawn.. he must be holding something back that he knows about the Qualia.  Yes, they were manufactured, yes they are totally.. or HE assumes they are 'totally' unknown to mankind in general especially the magicians that use them... but we have been shown storywise no proof someone is controlling them or using this knowledge to manipulate the world...

Or is that really true? Think about how Qtalda {coincidence in her name being derivative?}.. uses her Mortis spell... resemble a nano-disassembler swarm to anyone else?  And what are the Qualia.. about the size of a nanoswarm.. and if Lehm is correct~ all pervasive in the world's environment?  Maybe Qtalda IS that manipulator behind the scenes?  Did she make the Qualia... not likely.. but she may have an understanding of how to control them... SHE may not be the only one who can do that or is using the Qualia to control society!

No. Lehm IS holding something back he is not telling.. he's intentionally NOT being specific.. but I'm not so sure Lehm is the only one who has learned about the Qualia... someone MAY be using them to their advantage in ways that may have only been hinted at thus far in the story...
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: monimoni on November 17, 2016, 11:50:11 am
What bothers me about Mary is that he never really explained what was the point of the regeneration experiment. And if it was a failed one, why is she still alive? Am I missing something?
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: sunphoenix on November 17, 2016, 02:37:24 pm
Clearly...Mary is an attempt to breach stage 2: Pain.... but maytag learned it's not really injury you need to overcome. Just like melter is clearly and attempt to breach stage 1: fear.... by making someone emotionless... but again may tag figured out it not the emotional stress that is the problem but the physical stress of making your body obey when every emotion ration is to flee.
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: Brion Foulke on November 18, 2016, 01:11:26 pm
What bothers me about Mary is that he never really explained what was the point of the regeneration experiment. And if it was a failed one, why is she still alive? Am I missing something?

You're not missing anything.  All will be explained.
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: monimoni on November 18, 2016, 02:06:51 pm
Quote
Clearly...Mary is an attempt to breach stage 2: Pain.... but maytag learned it's not really injury you need to overcome. Just like melter is clearly and attempt to breach stage 1: fear....

Yes I have thought about that, but I'm not convinced. You could easily realize that all the stuff happening in phase 2 is not real, the same way Maytag realized it on her first try. Also, I am sure Mary does in fact feel pain, we have seen her reacting to pain many chapters ago. Also, Mary is invincible as long as she eats human flesh.. if phase 2 were real she would probably be just as useless as any other human. Plus why all the effort to make someone immortal when all you have to do is just step back and realize that it is not real, as Maytag put it?
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on November 18, 2016, 02:16:01 pm
What bothers me about Mary is that he never really explained what was the point of the regeneration experiment. And if it was a failed one, why is she still alive? Am I missing something?

"How does healing work?"

Either prior to discovering Qualia, or as part of proving them, he wanted to know:
1. How healing and offense magic worked.
2. How people are imbued with magic.
3. How specialist magic like flight or teleportation works.

Btw, the cannibalistic hunger she has? Part of the spell. To keep her healing all the time, the spell requires energy. The wounds that won't heal is a kill switch (she probably can be destroyed with her own effect by someone like Bern).

Quote
Yes I have thought about that, but I'm not convinced. You could easily realize that all the stuff happening in phase 2 is not real, the same way Maytag realized it on her first try. Also, I am sure Mary does in fact feel pain, we have seen her reacting to pain many chapters ago. Also, Mary is invincible as long as she eats human flesh.. if phase 2 were real she would probably be just as useless as any other human. Plus why all the effort to make someone immortal when all you have to do is just step back and realize that it is not real, as Maytag put it?

Lehm may not have had firsthand intel on the phases, so it is conceivable that he wasn't clear on the whole "not real" thing. We don't know he far he personally got.

Update: Hmmmm, a gambler criticizing another for making too much of a gamble. May's an idealist, but despite deaths from Bloody Mary and like, consider this. Suspiria's parents were quietly killed and replaced when they questioned the decision to enroll her (oh wait, you think any of that story is true? Look at how easily everyone's minds were messed with at that battle. Basically, everyone in the group was led into a slaughter, and Suspiria was going to be executed for a relatively minor thing, she bullied someone who bullied her, nobody was killed). The main country has crazy high taxes and some of the other hallmarks of a fascist country. One of those is that if people question too much or don't pay taxes, they disappear. The other one has an ostensibly anarchic system that feeds criminals into dueling matches to entertain until they die. To say nothing of magic made monsters like that liquid metal thing in book zero, or the tattooed woman Clairen. Dont you think maybe it would be good to shed a light on what is really running these countries?
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: mittfh on November 23, 2016, 01:16:39 pm
I wonder if Lehm's regretting his decision to recruit May as a test subject yet? :)
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on November 23, 2016, 09:25:23 pm
Nah...  ;D

Because May is also brilliant and probably knows the answer to phase 3 (she certainly knows conditioning doesn't work).

What we're describing here is part of cognitive therapy, dealing with issues using the mind.

http://www.helpguide.org/articles/anxiety/therapy-for-anxiety-disorders.htm#therapies

Conditioning is also known as exposure. But there are a number of other approaches.

Honestly, I see no problems with wanting to expose the truth, I do however see a problem with some of the people Lehm trusts. These experiments being sponsored by a sketchy person, I think he could come up with these answers a better way. That is, the end actually is good, but the means isn't justified. He needs to do this right, so there are no more regrets. If he seeks the truth, but is not forward with his subjects, this doesn't work.

In fact, seeking the truth can be advantageous. An alternative to conditioning is called "Challenging Negative Thoughts."

http://www.helpguide.org/articles/anxiety/therapy-for-anxiety-disorders.htm#therapies

Challenging negative thoughts operates by looking at an unrealistic idea, one by one, and stating a more real one. Here's an example for passing out on the subway.

Quote
Negative thought #1: What if I pass out on the subway?

Cognitive distortion: Predicting the worst

More realistic thought: Iíve never passed out before, so itís unlikely that I will on the subway.

Negative thought #2: If I pass out, it will be terrible!

Cognitive distortion: Blowing things out of proportion

More realistic thought: If I faint, Iíll come to in a few moments. Thatís not so terrible.

Negative thought #3: People will think Iím crazy.

Cognitive distortion: Jumping to conclusions

More realistic thought: People are more likely to be concerned if Iím okay.

It's simple. The Dark Cell shows a negative reality and replaces everything with a false image. Even if she can't remember, she has an analytical mind, which can poke a hole at such ideas and show her the real image. Where Bern loves her.
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: sunphoenix on November 23, 2016, 10:35:32 pm
Yeah.  I too beleive ...someone in this world .. or perhaps someones {plural}.. know the source of magic and are using it to their advantage and control over societies from behind the scenes. 

But if that is the case... just WHAT is the Dark Cell and what is its location that is significant to the answer of what the Qualia are?  WHY is the Dark Cell important? Why does Lehm believe that penetrating it will yield answers upon the purpose and origin of the Qualia?  Perhaps I have missed this explanation that has already been made known but I cannot remember anywhere telling us WHY the Dark Cell is important to the mystery of the Qualia-Nanite magic?

Those ALL being supplemental questions to the one I'm getting at~ IF there are people or organizations in this world aware of the Qualia and using that knowledge to their advantage... if the Dark Cell is important to understanding the Qualia.. shouldn't THEY know about the Dark Cell as well? If not.. why don't they know about it?  If the Dark Cell is important... why have THEY not secured it from investigation by the curious.. who might gain knowledge or access to the Qualia and thus potentially Threaten their monopoly on manipulating such knowlegde to their advantage?

... basically a SHIT-TON of Questions about the ENTIRE PREMISE... that has NOT been even hinted at answers for? 

tl;dr version - WTF?!?

And yes I do believe Maytag has figured out how to pass Stage 3... she is now fishing for information and trying to discover, if what Lehm is saying is true, is it in the world's best interests for her to even do this?  "Just because you can do a thing.. does not mean you should!" Money is not really May's motivator anymore.. SHE IS thinking seriously about this and is not sure the answer reveled~ is necessarily in everyone's {or her} best interests!  I don't think she feels people not knowing the truth about magic is necessarily a bad thing. Not knowing has not hurt people thus far and magic IS useful.  Magic is not broke.. so why bother trying to figure out how or why it works and potentially risk screwing things up for EVERYONE somehow?

Plus, she HAS NO idea what breaching the third phase will do to her.. and she can see someone went through a Hella lot of effort to keep anyone from breaching this mystery... her life could VERY WELL be in danger.. and she CERTAINLY wants to see Bernadette again!  No secret~ no matter HOW profound it might potentially prove to be, is worth loosing her love for Bern or risking May's chance at living a life with Bernadette in it!
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on November 24, 2016, 05:11:40 am
Yeah.  I too beleive ...someone in this world .. or perhaps someones {plural}.. know the source of magic and are using it to their advantage and control over societies from behind the scenes. 

But if that is the case... just WHAT is the Dark Cell and what is its location that is significant to the answer of what the Qualia are?  WHY is the Dark Cell important? Why does Lehm believe that penetrating it will yield answers upon the purpose and origin of the Qualia?  Perhaps I have missed this explanation that has already been made known but I cannot remember anywhere telling us WHY the Dark Cell is important to the mystery of the Qualia-Nanite magic?

Those ALL being supplemental questions to the one I'm getting at~ IF there are people or organizations in this world aware of the Qualia and using that knowledge to their advantage... if the Dark Cell is important to understanding the Qualia.. shouldn't THEY know about the Dark Cell as well? If not.. why don't they know about it?  If the Dark Cell is important... why have THEY not secured it from investigation by the curious.. who might gain knowledge or access to the Qualia and thus potentially Threaten their monopoly on manipulating such knowlegde to their advantage?

... basically a SHIT-TON of Questions about the ENTIRE PREMISE... that has NOT been even hinted at answers for? 

tl;dr version - WTF?!?

And yes I do believe Maytag has figured out how to pass Stage 3... she is now fishing for information and trying to discover, if what Lehm is saying is true, is it in the world's best interests for her to even do this?  "Just because you can do a thing.. does not mean you should!" Money is not really May's motivator anymore.. SHE IS thinking seriously about this and is not sure the answer reveled~ is necessarily in everyone's {or her} best interests!  I don't think she feels people not knowing the truth about magic is necessarily a bad thing. Not knowing has not hurt people thus far and magic IS useful.  Magic is not broke.. so why bother trying to figure out how or why it works and potentially risk screwing things up for EVERYONE somehow?

Plus, she HAS NO idea what breaching the third phase will do to her.. and she can see someone went through a Hella lot of effort to keep anyone from breaching this mystery... her life could VERY WELL be in danger.. and she CERTAINLY wants to see Bernadette again!  No secret~ no matter HOW profound it might potentially prove to be, is worth loosing her love for Bern or risking May's chance at living a life with Bernadette in it!

From what I can gather, reading btwn the lines, asking about who created the qualia caused the stylus to suddenly stop. While the Dark Cell may not have caused such a reaction, I'm sure you can understand the difficulty of finding out anything trying to paint an area of perfect darkness. He probably asked "Is there any area that I could go to in order to find the answers that you cannot tell me?" And it showed the entrance to the Dark Cell.

Mmmmm. And this is indeed true. I had a conversation about science and ethics yesterday. Given sufficient drive we could develop Skynet in real life, but that not in humanity's best interest. You do have to consider the ethics of a decision.

On the other hand, well since Lehm mentioned oppression lets consider a government. In a government where its incompetence and active hostility to its citizens is NOT exposed, you can have some serious abuse to the citizens. We could talk about Cold War Russia or China.
But we have a better example of secrecy than that, and yes it does matter that people know. I watched a film called The Big Uneasy. It was about how there was a complete denial about the Hurrican Katrina failure. Basicallty, three things went wrong. They cut a canal that fiunneled water into the city, and they hoired one construction team that was basoically govt employed(the army corps of engineers) to put a particular damming system. Now the Corps is great for overseas military actions, but many of its original engineers are long since retired and the dams they built failed in test, so rather than telling them that, they hid thre results sand lowered the test until it passed. Before this canal, it was bad because of crappy pipingbut not to the point where water slid in through the pipelines and wiped out whole streets. Then there was also the matter of building on marshland, which drains much of the floodwater. If people had lknown stuff like this, rather than continuing to call it a "natural disaster", people from landscaping and construction would show up at the doorstep to plant natural systems, and to build cheaper and better dams.

Back to Maytag. While there are useful things about magic, humans can conceivably work with other systems. And you have to remember there are a great number of magical attrocities that have been happening quietly. Bloody Mary for instance is a result of healing magic. Even though Lehm did create her, he used the same regeneration system that regrew May's arm.  That is, Lehm created a regenerating person, and the result was that her body became parasitic requiring people to sustain itself. The fail wasnt with Lehm good intentions so much with his methods, the magical system being used. In Book 0, we also see monsters. These are misuse of such tech. And what about the dissolving test? Its a VR system that convinces people they are more powerful. But we saw the effect of this system in Suspiria. She basically had such distorted mental state that she wasnt sure whether her parents were real or not and was clearly emotionally unstable. In other words, this system basically fries your brain. It is closer to having various helmets installed that can call qualia. With each upgrade, the load on your brain is that much higher, until ypou are almost frying synapses to maintain a delusion of power. Yes, magic is broken. Knowing what magic is means that people may be able to invent other means of carrying stuff out using items... rather than plugging their brains in. It does seem to need doing.

So this brings the last worry, that she may die. Honestly, if there were so many good candidates, I think this is the one remaining deal, because they probably did find a (wrong) way to conquer the system. Which just means rather than quit because of the risk, she needs to expose the truth, and hold herself together for her love. To bring the truth back with her. Since making it to the end is not a success if nobody knows the truth (it's not like The Giver where crossing the threshold unerases everyone's mind).
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: MaronaPossessed on November 25, 2016, 01:36:03 pm
"Hey Bern, ready to stuff the bird? ;)"
"I forgot she makes a dirty joke out of everything..."
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on November 28, 2016, 09:31:52 pm
Ohhhh...

The cheerleader in Heroes.

And that's all I'll say.
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: monimoni on November 30, 2016, 03:13:06 pm
May has solid arguments. So in this universe they can grow body parts like it's no big deal. For Mary it doesn't seem to matter which part she is eating, it just has to be human. The main disadvantage would be that you need a bunch of high level healers or something to do this consistently, which requires a lot of resources, which Lehm obviously has. Or, from a more real-world point of view, a high level sorcerer/scientist dude such as Lehm could easily find out what it is that makes the flesh "human" and try to make animals or whatever with "human" flesh.
I'm guessing this is not only about regeneration itself, the psychological aspect might also have had a role in her "development", to get rid of her humanity.. like they intended to create what you would call a monster, with no feelings or mercy or such. That, or he just doesn't care.
However, Maytag had a huge impact on Mary, I think. As we've last seen of her, she decided to eat bad people instead, which Lehm knows nothing about. I like where this is going.
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: Keneto on November 30, 2016, 05:35:16 pm
Dear Maytag

I realize you've defeated Dark Cell and are only toying with the thin man before your majestic reveal, however please remember he can vaporize you if you get him angry enough.
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on December 01, 2016, 07:05:48 pm
You tell 'em, Lehm. The truth is out there.

Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: sunphoenix on December 01, 2016, 10:11:18 pm
Lehm - "And number three...  How do I put this... This whole Moral discussion is a moot point."

Uhm.. you just proved her point.  EVERYTHING a person does is a Moral point.. if it is moot you are in-fact admitting that Moral choice is not... NOT relevant to you~ Which I fear is WHY she was asking the questions int he first place!  ARE YOU Lehm a Moral person?  If not why should she EVER Trust your intentions!?!? And if that is so. Why should she Entrust YOU with what you will do with the answers you get from this quest for magic?!?  WHY should she Help you at all?!?!?

Why do I have the sickening feeling a 'cosmic' "other shoe" is about to fall...?
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on December 02, 2016, 04:29:15 am
I think he means that while it is morally wrong there is something worse at stake.

In a situation, where it is "is it right to steal to save a life?" valuing a law over human life is not moral. But neither is demanding an exception at any point just because a life "might" be in danger.

In a morally mixed situation similar to this, morality becomes moot, because there is something equally important.
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: monimoni on December 03, 2016, 07:18:58 am
It would've been nice if he could stop being so vague and start giving some actual answers. This is a guy responsible for the lives of hundreds of people. How can you trust him at all if he just gives vague bullshit answers around your questions? She has the right to know every single detail about his research. There is no guarantee that they will even let her go (at least with all her memory intact) once they are "done with her". 

And this whole morality talk... I'm most confused about Mary. She has to eat human flesh to regenerate herself. It does not have to be from an actual person, most probably. In a universe where they grow limbs in a jar out of nothing, it would probably not be hard to provide human flesh without actually killing anyone.
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on December 04, 2016, 08:32:00 pm
Maybe limbs aren't enough? What if it's a sort of cellular fusion where she needs real people, because the goal is to become one body from many different people.
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: monimoni on December 08, 2016, 03:08:45 pm
Oo, getting interesting.
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on December 09, 2016, 12:13:03 pm
A thought. Does the Dark Cell undo other magic? As in, could they cast an illusion on Maytag before entering of Bernadette being like "Keep going! I'm here for you" and have her chase after it?
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: monimoni on December 09, 2016, 04:08:18 pm
No, Maytag, nooo! I hope you're not thinking what I think youre thinking.
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: mittfh on December 10, 2016, 03:06:19 am
So perhaps something like a hood that's locked on, with someone outside The Dark Cell holding the key?

I very much doubt May's thinking of invoking permanent blindness and deafness, e.g. by gouging out eyes and somehow blocking up ear canals.
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: monimoni on December 10, 2016, 09:19:07 am
If you couldn't see and hear anymore, wouldn't Dark Cell just make you hallucinate? It is magic, after all. Or, if it doesn't work that way, maybe you would just get stuck inside, confused? I don't know how being blind/deaf would be any different than having a person without feelings in phase 3.
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on December 10, 2016, 08:17:05 pm
No, Maytag, nooo! I hope you're not thinking what I think youre thinking.

May won't do it. May is a cool and calculating type. Bern and Corona are zealot types. She did sacrifice limbs, but mainly to save the one she loves. She has already gained most of what she wanted here, and she needs to observe the effects of this. Corona would do anything for the sake of the experiment.

Quote
If you couldn't see and hear anymore, wouldn't Dark Cell just make you hallucinate? It is magic, after all. Or, if it doesn't work that way, maybe you would just get stuck inside, confused? I don't know how being blind/deaf would be any different than having a person without feelings in phase 3.

I'm not sure how well this would work, as I doubt the blind and deaf have any distinct advantage. I read up on it, though. The visual cortex makes replacement imagery based on spatial dimensions (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blindsight). This is more pronounced for people who used to be sighted, as they know what things used to look like. Basically, you are memorizing things like distance and touch so that you know where things are, or at least to guess. Also, we all must watch Ice Castles.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjHRC5iO7fE

Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: monimoni on December 13, 2016, 01:31:09 pm
Couldn't they just send in Corona :P?
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on December 14, 2016, 11:02:07 am
Couldn't they just send in Corona :P?

Good point. Corona cannot see or hear, and suddenly remembers... Lehm wants her to do the Dark Cell, Lehm wants her to do the Dark Cell, Lehm wants her to do the Dark Cell (remember, conditioning)...
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: mittfh on December 15, 2016, 12:25:16 am
Given what happened to May wearing the helmet, I'd imagine Corona's experience would be:

She "remembered" that she was in a dangerous place, and that she needed to leave immediately. She also remembered that Lehm was in grave danger and that she needed to help him immediately. Corona somehow felt that she needed to turn around, and go back the way she came.
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on December 15, 2016, 08:03:11 pm
Nuh uh. Corona, like Bern, is primarily driven by duty.

She would disregard that it was a dangerous place entirely. She would "remember" that Lehm was in danger. But she would also remember that Lehm cares more about the truth than his life and wouldn't want her dropping anything she was doing to save him. Because of two conflicting drives, she would probably enter and instead stand blankly until the Dark Cell spits her out. She might even be able to move to the conditioned area before being paralyzed.
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: SAGG on December 16, 2016, 02:06:06 pm
I wonder by the way Maytag looked there at the end of the latest entry that she suspects Rhodes of doing something to the helmet so she wouldn't succeed...
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: sunphoenix on December 20, 2016, 04:08:04 pm
OH HO...

"It doesn't control the subconscious..."
"Perhaps there is a way to make the conditioning stronger..."

I find this a disturbing train of thought to persue... all sorts of BAD...really, Really BAD things can happen if you start probing into the manipulation of the subconscious... with conditioning!  THAT is a ravenous can of worms that Can/Will bite you~ repeatedly if you dare open it!

Such a thing can fundamentally change WHO you are... bad juju!
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on December 23, 2016, 07:27:07 pm
Bern has the right idea. I was just thinking about hot cocoa.
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: sunphoenix on December 24, 2016, 03:08:17 am
I don't know... I could get behind that free sex part of Sexy Xmas! :)
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: Brion Foulke on December 28, 2016, 12:23:43 pm
You can vote here in this thread!  Which do you like better?  Sexy Xmas, or Relaxing Xmas?
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: Kiran on December 28, 2016, 02:26:26 pm
Relaxing Xmas ::)
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: SAGG on December 28, 2016, 03:13:37 pm
Relaxing. (Sorry, Maytag!) :)
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: Puyon on December 28, 2016, 04:37:16 pm
Relaxing has my vote. I sorta just wanna see everyone calm and happy with no worries weighing them down for once. Just a cute Christmas scene that'll trick me into thinking that nothing is wrong yeah
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on December 28, 2016, 05:03:18 pm
Relaxing. Cocoa!  :-*
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: Dragoonseal on December 28, 2016, 05:07:08 pm
Relaxing Xmas.

Now I want some hot cocoa.
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: Daris on December 28, 2016, 05:16:19 pm
Relaxing, in sexy outfits.  Why not have both.
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: NeKaan on December 28, 2016, 06:03:26 pm
Relaxing Xmas!
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: PriorKnowledge on December 28, 2016, 07:05:19 pm
Relaxing. I have enough of the other kind elsewhere.
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: Sabio on December 29, 2016, 01:07:27 am
Sexy!
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: sunphoenix on December 29, 2016, 02:00:44 am
Wow.  What a bunch of wet blankets! lol! Sexy!
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: Hans on December 29, 2016, 02:40:22 am
That's not exclusive.
Relax with your sexy dressed partner in your arms.
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: XannMagus on December 29, 2016, 08:35:34 am
Relaxing FTW, sorry Maytag ;)
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: Ratty on December 30, 2016, 05:59:11 am
sexy and relaxing for me. Go Maytag
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: MaronaPossessed on December 30, 2016, 06:13:20 am
Relaxing (but it can have a bit of sexy to it)...but mostly relaxing.
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: GhostlyYorick on December 30, 2016, 09:46:53 am
Relaxing Christmas, sexy new year's eve  ;)
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: Wulf on December 30, 2016, 03:35:33 pm
I shall go for sexy cocoa.
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: CapnBlaze on December 30, 2016, 09:56:22 pm
I would have to go with sexy.  :)
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: UmberIsSexy on December 31, 2016, 01:27:53 am
SEXY!!!
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: phillip1882 on December 31, 2016, 07:32:36 am
I've always had relaxing x-masses so a sexy one would be a nice change of pace. unfortunately i have no one to do it with.
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: SAGG on January 03, 2017, 05:51:54 am
Maytag's got your number, jack. I'm sure of it. That look she gave you confirms it to me. She suspects something...
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: sunphoenix on January 05, 2017, 04:17:24 pm
Yeah... this is one twisted sick bitch! She likes hurting people, oh she calls it experimenting... but the real truth is she likes to make people as twisted as she is and enjoys the anguish it causes them.
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on January 06, 2017, 12:15:03 pm
I don't get it. She heard that this is a deathwish, she does want to see Bern again, and she got money to fund her dream. Why bring a knife? Unless, maybe she intends to kill fake Bern?
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: sunphoenix on January 08, 2017, 07:34:03 am
One must try to remember... Maytag, is if not clinically at least by her own admission a border - line sociopath'?'... I'm not sure if that is the proper term in our medical diagnosis... but she does not relate to others and does not empathize with them... but she has become very proficient at acting like she does. Hence, Crest ' s issues in trusting her.  So I've felt for a while that Maytag if not aware of something about the dark room that know one else has suspected she has a working theory that she had always considered trying knowing it would likely work.... but has been reluctant to do so as she must 'lower' her mask of empathy to do so.  Which is why I suspect she just recently started questioning Lehm... because she is very close to solving the dark room and she was fishing to try to discern if Lehm was 'appropriate/worthy ~ perhaps' for her to give him what he wants.

Bottom line is Maytag is not truly mentally opporating on the same social perception of most sane poeple.  That is not to say she is insane... but that our definitions of 'sane rational' behavior do not apply to her.  Maytag is a highly functioning perhaps EXTREME case of Ausberker ' s  (sp?) autism.  She is dangerous... as any reasoning being can be, but she is not irrational or unpredictability dangerous which IS the thing society needs to be watchful for in the case of dangerous sociopaths. 
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on January 09, 2017, 07:32:57 am
The problem with her analysis is that it is based on her deepest fears.

Lemme put it this way. There are about three or four conditions that have "lack of empathy" as a key component.


I think I answered my own question. Maytag is testing herself. She knows she isn't depressed enough, even in despair, to kill herself. But the deeper despair, below the one consciously tested by Bern's rejection, is "am I the sort of person who would hurt my loved ones? Is this why Bern hates me?"

I think this is actually key. Realizing that what Crazy Psycho Lady said (http://flipside.keenspot.com/comic.php?i=2249) is definitely not true, means she isn't the person she fears. Which is the real fear (this has both a conscious and subconscious fear, the latter gives bite to the former, making it impossible to pass). 

She is probably an Aspie or a Schizoid, not a Sociopath or Borderline.
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: monimoni on January 10, 2017, 06:37:32 am
I highly doubt she has Asperger's. She seems to be an expert at reading people's feelings and motives. Someone on the spectrum, even high functioning, would probably be unable to master such skills (hell even for normal people it's difficult). I dont think shes a psychopath either, she was confronted by phase 3 like everyone else, the feelings she has for Bern are real, and plus she is not malevolent, seems to be the contrary. I had a different feeling about what she's doing, like she sensed something fishy is going on (hopefully) and the idea is to be rescued.. idk
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on January 11, 2017, 02:24:33 pm
I was mainly listing available disorders that had a chance. Of these:


Honestly, I don't think she would go this far in, wanting to be rescued. This is an experiment. She wants to find out who she is.

http://flipside.keenspot.com/comic.php?i=2239
http://flipside.keenspot.com/comic.php?i=2241
http://flipside.keenspot.com/comic.php?i=2245
http://flipside.keenspot.com/comic.php?i=2247
http://flipside.keenspot.com/comic.php?i=2249
http://flipside.keenspot.com/comic.php?i=2251

The one time we legitimately see May lose her cool. This is key to her subconsciousness. And it looks like she's figured this out. She's gonna have to introduce herself, ummmm, to herself.
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: monimoni on January 11, 2017, 03:10:39 pm
I like this. I just hope she can escape somehow before whatsherface can do anything.
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on January 13, 2017, 02:10:48 pm
What's her face, indeed.

http://www.truenorthpartnering.com/sites/default/files/The%20face%20of%20reality.pdf

Quote
There is a Zen koan, or saying, that says: "Show me your original face before you were born." A variation of this koan says, "Without thinking of good or evil, show me your original face before your mother and father were born."

This person started out as glowing eyes.
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: monimoni on January 13, 2017, 06:19:47 pm
Indeed. I can't help but notice how Bern's hair changed. It seems like the "illusion" is actually real and created on the spot, for as long as she is in there. Freaky. Go Maytag
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on January 13, 2017, 07:41:20 pm
Interesting fact.  :'(

Look at the eyes when she appears first (http://flipside.keenspot.com/comic.php?i=3075). Then look closer. They aren't actually eyes at all.

They're two Qualia. We have the main body, and the squidlike tentacles at the edges.
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: SirBananaPie on January 16, 2017, 05:40:19 am
I wonder if "The Dark Cell's Third Phase, Pt.II" means that phase 3 has a second part or if it merely means that this is part 2 of the phase 3 storyline.

Also, I'm fairly new, so I haven't read most of the discussions here, but I was wondering what has been discussed already regarding trying to use mechanical objects for help? What if two persons enter dark cell, but only one goes to phase 3 and the other one has the task of shoving that person further by using a long broom? The person in phase 3 could be on wheels.

Does the Flipside world have any kind of device like our cars that could go on and on regardless of what kind of illusions the persons inside are being put under?

Or maybe they could create a really long conveyor belt, shove it inside so that only the part with the crank sticks out and have someone ride it while other persons (or even some magic) turn the crank.

Was any of this discussed somewhere already? Because it's really difficult to find since chapter discussions are always about all kinds of things happening there.

And why are the beings controlling dark cell using only illusions anyway? Wouldn't it be smarter to just disintegrate anyone who gets too far? Or are they just playing around with their prey and phase 10 is actually really deadly?
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on January 16, 2017, 05:33:04 pm
I think you should do a quick read-through to get up to speed. You should really start with Book 0, as it explains how magic works.

Uhhh yea it was discussed. The inner parts of the Dark Cell had a slight slope, so a ramp or catapult is out. They also tried stuff like spelunking from above. Didn't work.

From what I can gather, the Dark Cell is not a weapon, but a sort of simulation. The simulation basically prevents escape from itself by impeding progress. It doesn't really have any capacity to disintegrate (this takes high energy). That said, I have a feeling things are going to get very strange if May passes the boundary of the Third Phase.

Remember May. "Courage to strengthen, fire to blind, music to dazzle,  and iron to bind."

Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: SirBananaPie on January 17, 2017, 06:57:44 am
Yeah, I know about the slope, but it's just a slight one, so there shouldn't be a problem walking all the way to Phase 3 and have someone push you into it with a broom while you're on wheels, because the broom will push you regardless of a tiny slope.

Also a conveyor belt doesn't care about a small slope. Unless the belt has no friction whatsoever, but it would just be stupid to use a material like that.

But I will read book 0 next, thanks for hinting at it. I don't remember May's quote though.

Regarding the current page:
I wonder if Maytag took the knife in there because her girlfriend has super-strong subconscious reflexes to do perfect counters. Maybe she will counter May's attempt to stab herself. Yes, the Split Rose is a style to prevent yourself from getting hurt, but maybe the fact that it's a pacifist style is enough to have Bern act.
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: sunphoenix on January 17, 2017, 04:57:26 pm
I'm not sure what Maytag is trying to learn about herself by taking a weapon with her.... though as a side note ~ did Lehm and his cronies leave her actual jester suit back where she was? Cause her magical jester suit has NO LACK of weapons... if I recall correctly her suit has like 100 stilettos and various potions! So why would she even need a table knife?

But besides that is she going to give the knife to fake Bern and ask her to end her life if she is going to abandon her... she would rather be dead than be without her Bern... or is she going to shank the fakes Bern to prove to herself this reality is Not real?

I'm totally in the dark on what her intentions are....!!!
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on January 17, 2017, 09:12:26 pm
I have a feeling she'll do nothing (it's complicated). Because the knife is not a weapon. 

Stumped? Reread the long string of links I left earlier. There is something specific weighing on her mind, and the knife is basically there to reveal to herself what kind of person she is. It's basically the Sword of Shannara.

http://flipside.keenspot.com/comic.php?i=3053

This. "If only there was a way to make conditioning stronger." Conditioning becomes stronger when the subconscious becomes aware that what is given to it is at odds. "I will ignore this and keep walking" is marginally effective. "(I know this is untrue, so I have no reason to pay attention)" is super effective.

 
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: Kiran on January 19, 2017, 12:11:01 am
So a small quiz?

What body part May cut or injured with that knife?

Eyes?
Ears?
Or a finger she cut earlier in the comic to save Bern as a reminder?
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: SirBananaPie on January 19, 2017, 02:04:52 am
Okaaayy.... could it be that Phase 2 conditioned her to move forward while being in pain? And Phase 1 conditioned her to move forward while being afraid? Huh. Interesting.
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on January 19, 2017, 07:08:55 am
I think Corona used pain before. This is different.

Bern would care.

This sets up a Morton's Fork (a situation where two events lead to the same result or conclusion) when either the program knows this and gets her to act like Bern, invalidating the challenge by making her stop talking about breaking up. Or she doesn't say anything different because mercy isn't programmed in, invalidating the challenge because this is not the real Bern.

In fact, the more she goes, the more her subconscious realizes that Bern loves her. Either this clone reflects this, or she knows that she can walk on past.
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: phillip1882 on January 19, 2017, 08:09:48 am
oh geez i think she removed her own eyes. gross! and painful!
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: monimoni on January 19, 2017, 03:42:09 pm
oh geez i think she removed her own eyes. gross! and painful!

Why would she though? Wouldn't it be like with the helmet, but permanent? In any case, is May really so determined to do this for Lehm?
I'm confuses as to how she cut herself, looks like it happened just before phase 3. Is it some different conditioning that makes her walk?
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on January 19, 2017, 06:34:50 pm
oh geez i think she removed her own eyes. gross! and painful!

I don't think she removed anything. But I do think she slashed at her face.

Quote
Is it some different conditioning that makes her walk?

It's not conditioning. As I've been saying (you guys don't listen), there are other approaches to despair than simply getting used to it (conditioning).

One of them is distracting yourself (arguably what May is doing). Another is changing your negative filter to a positive one (basically, seeing a bright side of a situation). Another is to basically expose the lie of negative thoughts (looking for proof from one's past that, no you haven't "never been loved"). Another is solving the actual problems causing the despair (this one can be difficult if you are stuck, it typically requires the person be fairly healthy).
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: weirdguy on January 20, 2017, 10:19:32 am
Seriously? The Vash the Stampede gambit?
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: Kiran on January 20, 2017, 12:04:07 pm
So the eyes got out...
Ouch, May looks so much creepy...
Seeing May smile I think her goal here is something else completely than moving forward with the injury and earplugs, trying to force this qualia being into acting its role as Bern who still dumps her while not giving a damn about her injury which she should, could really make May's subconcious realise this is all fake?
I don't think so.
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on January 20, 2017, 03:35:59 pm
Quote
Seeing May smile I think her goal here is something else completely than moving forward with the injury and earplugs, trying to force this qualia being into acting its role as Bern who still dumps her while not giving a damn about her injury which she should, could really make May's subconcious realise this is all fake?

There is something more to this plan, yes.

Also, I hope she gets her eyes back (or a substitute) when this is all done. Because this is kinda pointless if she doesn't actually know what's beyond this. It might be pointless anyway.
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: monimoni on January 20, 2017, 05:10:20 pm
What the..? So May is completely crazy, confirmed. I dont get it still, how is this different from wearing the helmet? Guess we shall find out.

oh geez i think she removed her own eyes. gross! and painful!

I don't think she removed anything. But I do think she slashed at her face.

Quote
Is it some different conditioning that makes her walk?

It's not conditioning. As I've been saying (you guys don't listen), there are other approaches to despair than simply getting used to it (conditioning).

One of them is distracting yourself (arguably what May is doing). Another is changing your negative filter to a positive one (basically, seeing a bright side of a situation). Another is to basically expose the lie of negative thoughts (looking for proof from one's past that, no you haven't "never been loved"). Another is solving the actual problems causing the despair (this one can be difficult if you are stuck, it typically requires the person be fairly healthy).
It's more about not getting it than not listening.
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: SirBananaPie on January 20, 2017, 11:00:51 pm
Quote
Seeing May smile I think her goal here is something else completely than moving forward with the injury and earplugs, trying to force this qualia being into acting its role as Bern who still dumps her while not giving a damn about her injury which she should, could really make May's subconcious realise this is all fake?

There is something more to this plan, yes.

Also, I hope she gets her eyes back (or a substitute) when this is all done. Because this is kinda pointless if she doesn't actually know what's beyond this. It might be pointless anyway.
Well, this is a world where even resurrection is possible. Also she already got her arm healed after letting Mary eat it, so getting her eyes back should be easy.

Still.... so creepy, they way she looks. >_<
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: sunphoenix on January 21, 2017, 12:16:32 am
hmmm... no.  I think Maytag has found a deeper truth... and is relying on this.

I'll explain.. does anyone remember the novel and movie called "Sphere"?

In the story earth undersea miners discover a spaceship of supposedly alien origin embedded in millions of years of sea coral.  Having been there longer than the dinosaurs, funny thing is its controls and accommodations are all written in modern English and clearly made for human usage!  For all purposes the ship seems to be made with earth technology.. albeit centuries in advance of modern technology... even the processor chips are stamped with Texas Instruments logo.  Clearly its from some distant future possibly.. a time machine of some sort, but the crew is missing and all evidence of what happened to them is gone as well.  The only out of the ordinary anomaly ~ besides the ship's presence at all, is in the hold... a large 20'ft sphere of some mirrored shimmering unknown metal.  It has no seams and does not appear to have been formed by any tool known to man and seems totally out of place in the riveted clearly constructed hull of the human space/time ship.  But one of the researchers makes an astute and creepy observation.  The sphere is resting in the metal hold its mirrored surface reflecting the surrounding of the vessel... EXCEPT the reflections of the the living humans in the room observing the sphere.  Light reflects off its metallic surface.. but none of the researchers reflections appear on the surface of the metallic sphere.  The researcher comments... 'its as if the sphere chooses not to show our reflections... that denotes choice and a controlling  intelligence.'

My point...

I think Maytag has considered why the Dark Chamber-stage three seems to change to always; no matter what they do, reflect a reality of despair and hopelessness.  If it only reacted one way to a person entering.. they should technically be able to find a way around it.. the mask should have worked.. but it didn't because the chamber modified how it  forced its reality upon the person entering.  To change to adjust denotes.. some intelligence behind the effects of the third stage!  Meaning someone is perhaps controlling it or directing it!  If that is the case... then THEY are who one has to be outwited.. not the chamber! 

So why is her being 'seemingly' blind any different from the helmet... because the intelligence directing the chamber will observe she is blind.. and think that route may be ignored to try something else ~ when in truth she is not blind.. she is bluffing the intelligence controlling the room to reveal itself and its true nature.. which is why she is smiling she is gambling and has made a bluff... and is trying to see if the intelligence controlling the chamber will ante up and unwittingly reveal itself...!
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: SAGG on January 21, 2017, 11:49:26 am
This...is an excellent observation. Maytag's faking it...
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: phillip1882 on January 21, 2017, 12:52:44 pm
i don't think she's faking it, look at the blood. i do believe she has a  plan beyond just removing her senses.
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on January 22, 2017, 12:11:00 pm
Phillip, the fact that she has ear plugs makes me skeptical. I think she could have cut her eardrums, if she had a knife like this handy. The earplugs and the knife strike me as props to fit the narrative. 

The reason she is able to take a step here while a man-made mask didn't do the trick is because she is maintaining this with her own willpower. Otherwise, even while blind, I think the Storm would make her see the event. Of course, that might also be a trick (convincing her subconscious that it is a trick by being able to see without eyes).   

Today at church, I actually started thinking about this (one of the songs choked me up, and tears started running my mascara). I started fixating on Mays smile and the blood reminded me of tears. All of this made for an interesting sermon, as I was holding back an urge to smile. Basically, unlike the person who suicided himself, May is able to keep herself happy (defending from despair) and either naturally or purely mentally, is inducing pain and sadness to shut out the other crap from the room.

The only question remains whether May did this with her knife or her mind, but we shall figure that out.   

Update: Base on what fake Bern said, we can conclude that it is not in fact as simple as cutting out her eyes.

Which means that yeah, either the Sphere mind-shifting theory is the case (she's faking), or May has some other secret, and really did cut her eyes out but only to distract from her real trick.
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: SirBananaPie on January 26, 2017, 04:26:11 am
Go Go Go Maytag! ^^ God, I can't wait for this to resolve! Part of me wants to stop coming here for every update, so I can read it all in one go, because of course this scene has to happen in slow motion, but on the other hand I can't stop myself. Oh well, when I was a kid I watched some cartoon series that continued once per week for half a year, so I should be able to endure the tension for a couple of pages. :-)
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on January 26, 2017, 05:45:34 am
[SuperSeriousReporterMode]
Mr Pie, you're new here. Care to give a statement on what you believe May is doing? How is it she is calmly walking past in a system designed to cause her to despair? What are your thoughts on this matter?
[/SuperSeriousReporterMode]

Inquiring minds deserve to know. :D
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: sunphoenix on January 26, 2017, 05:11:05 pm
Hmmmm.... Now... I'm not sold on the sphere theory I proposed. I think 'crazy-spice' the psychopath girl who wants to hurt/experiment on Maytag... (can't remember the crazy bitches name ) hit on something with Maytag. She mentioned Maytag not letting her mask slip.  She intimates that Maytag in truth underneath the 'masks' she wears she is coldly unemotional without empathy or emotion not that she can't feel ~like Melter, but she can choose not to feel as THAT is her natural state. I think Maytag is using her psychological 'abnormality' to her advantage here.... the eyes and earplugs are merely distractions.... for the force I think she believes is controlling the dark cell.
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on January 27, 2017, 01:52:27 am
So its her true self. It think of this as a sorta of wall she is making, using her own reality. Kinda a power of sortapositivethinkingonlyitsinsane. Also, pretty sure most people in "too much pain to think straight" do not have that kind of grin. Like, ever. Sorry fake Bern, whatever the answer, that's not it.
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: monimoni on January 29, 2017, 01:25:13 pm
That, and a normal person would be on the floor screaming. May is getting some kind of pleasure out of this, just like phase 2. Should it be stated again what a freak she is?
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: MaronaPossessed on January 30, 2017, 10:56:23 am
Ah...I see! She did mention the pain in Phase 2 felt very real :)

Edit: I smell a Flipside Creepypasta...
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: monimoni on February 01, 2017, 03:49:48 pm
Well,  I hope she gets her eyes back shortly after that. Otherwise, it's just not worth it, Maytag, damn. Cool idea, though.
 I'm surprised they haven't thought of anything to make conditioning stronger before, or even to block your senses (i.e. that you dont have to be blind to not be able to see!). Granted, only Maytag could probably pull this off, but Corona was also able to go through phase 2 for 7 (!) years..
Also, I hope she wont need eyesight for the great revealead truth.
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: MaronaPossessed on February 01, 2017, 05:48:42 pm
Well,  I hope she gets her eyes back shortly after that. Otherwise, it's just not worth it, Maytag, damn. Cool idea, though.
 I'm surprised they haven't thought of anything to make conditioning stronger before, or even to block your senses (i.e. that you dont have to be blind to not be able to see!). Granted, only Maytag could probably pull this off, but Corona was also able to go through phase 2 for 7 (!) years..
Also, I hope she wont need eyesight for the great revealead truth.

I think there's a good chance she can get her eyes back. 1. Crest's mom was blind but thanks to sorcery, she is no longer blind. 2. Again, thanks to sorcery, they were able to regenerate a new arm for Maytag when it was eaten by Bloody Mary.
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on February 02, 2017, 06:38:03 am
Read that last line. She didnt just condition, she substituted a stronger feeling. So this means if she comes again, this time with eyes, she will be able to see and still walk past, so long as whatever feeling (say love or rage or happiness) is able to completely overwhelm the despair.
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: SirBananaPie on February 03, 2017, 01:07:05 am
Read that last line. She didnt just condition, she substituted a stronger feeling. So this means if she comes again, this time with eyes, she will be able to see and still walk past, so long as whatever feeling (say love or rage or happiness) is able to completely overwhelm the despair.
Yeah, why not use happy feelings? Drugs, maybe? I mean, the world is magical enough that side-effects should be curable, since they're even able to revive people (see book 0).
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: monimoni on February 03, 2017, 05:32:45 am
Great stuff, Brion.

^ The answer to that I guess would be that magic doesnt work in dark cell. As you said this  society relies heavily on magic, so there was never a point to invent drugs or medicine?
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on February 03, 2017, 07:45:18 pm
In the world of Flipside, magic isn't real. That is, supposedly Bern's sword was supposed to be antimagic, but it instead behaves as a sort of two-way tunnel for force and energy. They have always had medicine, it's just been either biotech or nanotech, in the form of drinkable potions. The problem being that most of these potions involve indirect aid from Qualia to convert inert water into potion using ambient elements. So it would turn back. But I'm pretty sure they have some stuff people know about here, maybe some mushrooms or something.

Update: It sounds like Little Miss WhatsHerFace is about to try to kill May. "Looks like I may have to go through with it."
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: MaronaPossessed on February 06, 2017, 04:02:08 pm
I CAN'T WAIT FOR THIS SECRET!!!
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: monimoni on February 07, 2017, 11:18:08 am
I don't think VortexHead and WhatsHerFace are the same people. Looks like May is waking up, so to speak. Doesn't really look like she's choking.
What if... the whole dark cell thing is set up to select people with specific characteristics (to do what May just did takes some good amount and specific type of crazy) for some obscure purpose :o? I mean, if dark cell didn't want people in there, it would just directly kill everybody entering, right, why bother with all the phases?

Also, could somebody remind me how they found out about dark cell in the first place? I know about Lehm's "painting" ability, but I mean, it's like asking, "where do i find the answer to who made the qualia?" and then the painting points to some door in your house that you never noticed? Or was it that they built the place around dark cell?
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: SAGG on February 07, 2017, 02:30:51 pm
Now, open your eyes, Maytag....  :-\
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on February 07, 2017, 02:59:47 pm
I think I see the Dark Cell as a sort of treasure keep or storehouse. Where rather than a testing place, the ordeal is apparently set up as impossible for anyone but the Master.

Whatever treasure is inside, the Master has access due to a keycard or somesuch. The rest of the poor yokels are typically forced off the property with a patented reverse vaccuum (Phase 1). If they don't scram from that, there comes the illusory razor wire (Phase 2). If they make it past that, the last test is impossible, basically a brick wall preventing passage (Phase 3). Beyond Phase 3, isn't a real phase, because you aren't actually supposed to pass here. Looked in this way, yes, it would definitely make sense to try to kill someone who actually made it somewhere they shouldn't, but before that, it would be overkill to kill people who discovered it by accident, and if was pretty much impossible to get in, no other security would normally be needed. Anyway, that's my take on this. We will have to see.

Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: sunphoenix on February 08, 2017, 01:36:16 am
"I have such wonderful WONDERFUL things to show you... but where we're going.. we don't need any Eyes!"

{Shudder!}

...now Maytag... pull out your healing potions from your sexy jester's outfit to heal those eyes... your really gonna need them.. and PLEASE don't GO MAD!!!!
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: Trennicus on February 08, 2017, 01:40:11 pm
I bet Marzia has made it to the end of the Dark Cell.
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: MaronaPossessed on February 08, 2017, 03:32:51 pm
I bet Marzia has made it to the end of the Dark Cell.
WHAT A TWEEST
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: sunphoenix on February 09, 2017, 05:17:06 pm
What? All this to meet 'The Child--Like Empress'? Maytag... though a adult young woman... is on the petite size... so that reaching hand is certainly smaller... 'child-like'...?
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on February 09, 2017, 10:55:23 pm
Women as a whole tend to have slim arms. And there are other explanations, such as malnourishment. Remember, she hasn't had anything to eat in like... ever.
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: Andrea on February 09, 2017, 11:16:29 pm
It's been a long time since my last post.

I have to say this dark cell thing is very exciting! Can't wait to read the following pages.

Let's hope Brion doesn't leave us with this cliffhanger to follow some other character's story.
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on February 10, 2017, 06:13:10 am
Women as a whole tend to have slim arms. And there are other explanations, such as malnourishment. Remember, she hasn't had anything to eat in like... ever.

Scratch that. I looked again. The arm size is not much smaller than May, but the hand is that of a little kid.

We might get a backstory chapter, Andrea. If not, next one is probably Crest, since both May and Bern have done some sort of ordeal, and Crest hasn't really done much aside from determine some information that can't even be proven.
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: monimoni on February 13, 2017, 10:10:17 am
D'aww, how nice of her. I had a feeling this would happen.
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: MaronaPossessed on February 13, 2017, 10:25:09 am
HER EYES
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: SAGG on February 13, 2017, 01:26:22 pm
There ya go! Called it!  :P Maytag pulled it off!
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on February 14, 2017, 03:59:11 am
May didn't do that. This little girl did with her whack to the head. No eyes->blind eyes->working eyes.

Anyone wanna lay odds on what she looks like? My theory? Magic isn't real, but that idea of demons that we heard about from Bloody Mary is actually true. There are other beings with tech and powers other than humans. The powers arent really magic so much as a sort of touch applied effect system (when she bopped her on the head, she rewired her brain to start cellular regeneration). This is why Marzia looks so creepy, shes one of the Moon Children (to reference Majora's Mask). So my theory is that she looks like Marzia's younger sister.
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: SAGG on February 14, 2017, 03:15:45 pm
May didn't do that. This little girl did with her whack to the head. No eyes->blind eyes->working eyes.

Anyone wanna lay odds on what she looks like? My theory? Magic isn't real, but that idea of demons that we heard about from Bloody Mary is actually true. There are other beings with tech and powers other than humans. The powers arent really magic so much as a sort of touch applied effect system (when she bopped her on the head, she rewired her brain to start cellular regeneration). This is why Marzia looks so creepy, shes one of the Moon Children (to reference Majora's Mask). So my theory is that she looks like Marzia's younger sister.

Waitasec. You're thinking Maytag was REALLY blind?! That doesn't make any sense! She'd cut her eyes out just to see what the final barrier was for the Dark Cell? I find that hard to believe, since for all she'd know it was nothing but a lark, and she cut her eyes out for nothing....
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on February 14, 2017, 05:15:03 pm
http://flipside.keenspot.com/comic.php?i=3101

I thought so too, but then I read this one.

"I won't get my sight back from this, but it should dull the pain."

http://flipside.keenspot.com/comic.php?i=3107

First four panels have her with no eyes or blank eyes (https://userscontent2.emaze.com/images/e2667d19-c017-44de-a61f-9fb30e9e86ab/a5f3a761-ede1-48af-a8ed-de39a1859a8e.jpg) (what you would get if you had eyes but were blind). It isn't clear from the black and white, but it is clear that she is blind.

Her sight was legitimately restored.

I thought it was mind over matter, but when she didn't restore herself afterwards, and used a potion, I was like "nah..."

Turns out she doesnt look like much. I wonder if this is because she has no set physical form, or just that maytag's eyes aren't up to seeing someone like her. Looks like a girl with a hat and a cat.
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: SAGG on February 15, 2017, 05:07:05 am
Hm. Then Maytag's a bigger fool than I thought, taking a chance like that.....  :o :'(
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on February 15, 2017, 04:32:49 pm
It was a calculated risk. If she failed, what money she has now would grow her new eyes if Thin Man wouldn't himself. And there's always the possibility Little Miss Psycho Maid might decide to give her "special" eyes. Heat vision!  ;D

Maytag is a bit crazy, remember? This was a girl who was willing to cut off her own fingers to rescue Bern.
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: Brion Foulke on February 15, 2017, 08:15:33 pm
Hm. Then Maytag's a bigger fool than I thought, taking a chance like that.....  :o :'(

Well thats apropos considering she's a jester!  But seriously, yeah its a bit crazy, but also they live in a world where basically any injury can be healed, so I think its not quite as crazy as it might seem for us.
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: weirdguy on February 15, 2017, 10:51:26 pm
[ten more pages of stalling]

i think the situation where she submitted her arm as a snack was probably worse than the fingers thing
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: monimoni on February 17, 2017, 03:24:42 am
Uh, okay. I like her cat.
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on February 17, 2017, 04:08:24 am
I think May and Bern could pass her off as a kid. What with May's jester motif just "she dyed her hair that way."

She definitely could stand to get out of this place. Just one issue though. The Dark Cell, is obviously a cell. The fact that is holding her, means she probably can't get out on her own. How does may take another person back? The first two phases were no sweat but the third she cut her eyes out last time. And that wasn't involving another person and a cat. It might also be a sort of fox, chicken, and seed deal when she has to go back and forth but certain combinations don't work well.

Also, can other people see her? She looked blurry at first.

Also, this video is somehow fitting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2XX1ZvT8aHg

Void Kitten sucks you in when you rub its whiskers.
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: MaronaPossessed on February 17, 2017, 04:36:57 am
*looks at girl* ....*runs away* I ALWAYS HAVE BAD LUCK WITH CREEPY KIDS
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: sunphoenix on February 17, 2017, 06:30:27 am
"Ummm.. there's a hole in that pussy..."

Sorry... I'm a bad Bad BAD boy.. had to say it. :)
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: phillip1882 on February 17, 2017, 12:44:25 pm
you don't think shes matag's inner child, do you?
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: badmunky64 on February 17, 2017, 02:17:36 pm
Good to finally be in the forums.

I'm not 100% that she's trapped in the dark cell as that's just what the Thin Man called it.  He has no idea that a "person" was in there.

Soooo the cat has a hole for a face.  It must be whatever the sentient creature in phase 3 is since it had a hole for a face after Maytag passed it.

One question that has been on my mind since we were shown the Dark Cell is how does the Thin Man know the answer to his questions relating to the Qualia are inside the Dark Cell?  How did he even find it?   
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on February 17, 2017, 06:46:40 pm
I'm not sure if this is some kinda final trick. But I guess, let's trust this for now.

Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: Seikojin on February 17, 2017, 08:31:10 pm
you don't think shes matag's inner child, do you?

Ya know, that is a good idea.  I don't think it may be a real duplicate of her though.  From what I an remember, she looked a bit different as a kid.

I love the left hook direction this is all going.
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on February 19, 2017, 04:12:21 am
She was all blond as a child and had May's cold eyes.

In some sense, Yin Yang Goth Girl (I enjoy naming ppl) does represent a mirror of May's past. But typically this sort of highly individualized character represents either the author (the non-lobster aspect of this kinda rules it out) or the audience. Given that I personally own a cat, and do identify with light/dark color scheme, I'm gonna go with the idea that she is supposed to represent a generalized picture of the viewer. Ideally, she would look different for all readers, but I'm not sure than is possible short of W (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W_(TV_series)) level art.

I kind of suspect this is supposed to represent another dimension. No discernible qualia, different rules and stuff.

And this is how you do introductions. Give an assumed name for yourself "and this is my friend" with no explanation of who or what your friend is.
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: monimoni on February 20, 2017, 04:50:08 am
Creepy. I also have the feeling that the "cat" is the same as the person/thing we saw earlier in dark cell. What if she's like a prisoner of the cat thing, like she is what is being guarded, in a 5th element sort of way?
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on February 20, 2017, 05:04:52 am
From this conversation we have established (1) they don't appear to have names, (2) they haven't actually told much useful, and (3) so far they aren't very trustworthy.

It's not clear whether this is still part of the Dark Cell, but she can probably treat it like it is.  Since there is nowhere to go from here, either she has to set about proving this part is false to get to the real end of Dark Cell, or if this is real we are to assume that May has to assume whether its a good idea to try to bring them back.

It's entirely possible that this "introduction" is some kind of riddle. Like, she introduced herself as Eye because May can see thanks to her.
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: sunphoenix on February 21, 2017, 04:49:06 am
Why am I fearing someone in this scene will eventually spontaneously sprout tentacles?

"dOn't fEaR uS..mAYtaG! wE sEeK PeaCefuL cOoeXiSTaNCEsSss!!!"
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on February 21, 2017, 08:02:30 am




W̪͉̳̠̳͙̗ͯ̇ͦͬe̗̪͔͎̳̱̯̠ͥ̊̊ͅ'͎̯̥͚̟̤̺͈͇̈́̓ͯ̇͑̐̾̉̽̐r̙̣̳̫̜̮͙͕͕̳̤̺̬͕̟̳͇̒̈́͛͛ͭͮ̂͂̎ͮͪ̉͗̅ͤͫ̌̓̾e̬̰̜͕̺͕͎̥̻̗̳̪͓̠̯͖͈͆̑̾̇̉ͅ ̘̮̻̤͕̯̺͎̰ͫ̏͗͐ͮ͑ͩͨ͌̈́ͨͫ̾ͤ̓̌̌ͪ̈f̭͖̝̙̥̞̱͇̱͉͖͖͍̖͇͂ͮ̀̒́ͪ̃̽ͯ͑̚r̬̝̺͇̗͔̬͕̲̠̯͍ͫ̎̂̓̃i̤͙͖̰̜ͭ̈́̈̃͑͒ͥ̂ͣͅḛ̯̳͍͈ͤ̏̓ͩ̑́̐ͦ̈ͩ̀ͪ͆n̮̝̗̱̼͉̪̱̠͉͙̠ͬ̐̊̉͑ͭͧ̎ͧ̔̋ͯd̠͍̳̱̻̯͍̻̫͎̯̻̲ͫ̊́̓́ͪ̈́ͮͦ̅͑ͯ̽̋̑̚l̹̳̠̣͓͉̫͖̲͙̦̗̍̑̄̈͋̒ͫ̽͛̎͒̽̏̆͊̍y̘̝̘͎̣̱̩̖̎̉̿̅̋ͫ̈́͊̅̊ͭ́ͦ̐͗!̥͓͓̱̬̰̻̤̭̗̼͙̞͓̱̙͓͚̟͂ͬͥ̍͛ͧ̅̾ͩ ̠̜̗̟̺̭̥̹̰̙̭̺͉̹̣̦͍͓͖̐͐̊̚H͈̣̱̰̖͖̘̪̲̓̉ͭ̃̑̐̒ö̫̠̮͓̘̼͖̮̯̺̞̠͎͖́ͤͦ̋̉̚̚ne̦̯͇̘͇̺͍̠̖̥͖̩̪̫̼̭ͩͦ̇ͤ̿ͨ̐̄͑̈̋ͨ̄̊s͇̭̠̠̝̱̯̔͊̆̌ͣͦ̒̋̇̾̊ͬ̀̈͒ͅt͙̲͎̗̞͎͈̯͎̖̦̜̳̟̯̣̠̲ͧͮ̋́ͯ̏͋̈͂̏͐̈́ͣ̿̌̃ͫ̾̚ͅ!̙̣̹̰͚͚̟̦̩̜̦̻̭̹̙̘̑ͯ͊̓̅̂̓̅ͅ





Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: MaronaPossessed on February 24, 2017, 09:46:25 am
Why am I fearing someone in this scene will eventually spontaneously sprout tentacles?

"dOn't fEaR uS..mAYtaG! wE sEeK PeaCefuL cOoeXiSTaNCEsSss!!!"
Wonder if she's into tentacle sex...knowing how kinky she is XD
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: weirdguy on February 24, 2017, 01:26:18 pm
I mean, this looks like a cozy room, and they're adorable, so I don't think anything is wrong with this situation at all nope nosirree
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: sunphoenix on February 25, 2017, 12:53:11 am
Why am I fearing someone in this scene will eventually spontaneously sprout tentacles?

"dOn't fEaR uS..mAYtaG! wE sEeK PeaCefuL cOoeXiSTaNCEsSss!!!"
Wonder if she's into tentacle sex...knowing how kinky she is XD

Hmmmm... honestly?  I think I'd rather see Maytag... naked and sweaty in an intimate embrace with either Crest or an equally sweaty and naked Bern and Polly~ hehe! Neo-pollyberntag or maybe RBY {snicker}?  Maytag IS blonde.. so RBY {Red-Bern}, {Black-Polly}, {Yellow-Maytag}...?

Sometimes Maytag is so 'wide-eyed' cute.. one longs to just hold her down and ravish her thoroughly until she squeals joyfully! {snicker}! :)
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on February 27, 2017, 07:47:32 pm
But but, it's their home! Think about the sentimental value. And stuff.
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: SAGG on February 28, 2017, 01:39:47 am
I don't like the sound of this. I wonder if the cat will try to switch the girl and Maytag's places?
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: MaronaPossessed on March 01, 2017, 03:33:20 pm
Oookay this is unexpected...
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: mnmrn on March 01, 2017, 06:01:36 pm
I look forward to Flipside updates more than any other.  I wish I could read the next 50 pages of their conversation immediately!
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on March 01, 2017, 08:23:02 pm
I don't like the sound of this. I wonder if the cat will try to switch the girl and Maytag's places?

Still may, this reads too weird to be taken seriously.

On the other hand, these two may actually be that weird.
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: monimoni on March 02, 2017, 09:50:37 am
Looks like she is a prisoner basically. Wonder what it is about her that requires such protection. She certainly doesn't seem like an ordinary kid.
However, has it ever been mentioned how Lehm actually found out about dark cell and how exactly it is linked to the qualia and such? Did the paintings point it out to him?
I think the dark cell/thin man story line is my favorite so far.
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on March 02, 2017, 04:12:44 pm
monimoni, she's probably a witch. As in, in this universe where the magic is fake, she's probably one of the few ppl (aside from CS3) who can use real magic.

It sounds like there is a back entrance.

Quote from: Oracle of Tao
Nevras: The back entrance...

 Sorry, inside joke. ;D
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: MaronaPossessed on March 02, 2017, 06:34:59 pm
WHY DIDN'T YOU WALK OUT EARLIER?!

UGH QUESTION AFTER QUESTION ON EACH PAGE XD
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on March 03, 2017, 11:59:29 am
 :o So she's basically a creepy perky child?

To answer your question Marona, there was probably a barrier around the exit. Not the path itself. Meaning, remember how May had to build her physical strength? The fear thing was Eye's doing, as was the pain, and the despair. But the unseen barrier that May had to scoot past in Phase 1? This was probably kitty.
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: monimoni on March 03, 2017, 01:46:58 pm
:o So she's basically a creepy perky child?

To answer your question Marona, there was probably a barrier around the exit. Not the path itself. Meaning, remember how May had to build her physical strength? The fear thing was Eye's doing, as was the pain, and the despair. But the unseen barrier that May had to scoot past in Phase 1? This was probably kitty.

Unseen barrier? I thought she had to build strength because being under intense fear for a period of time is physically exhausting. That is because dark cell forces you to feel. So, it somewhat makes sense that the more physicallly fit you are, the farther you can go. Im not really sure if this has to do with strength though, but more like stamina.
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on March 03, 2017, 04:48:50 pm
Read that passage again. The intense fear was a distraction. While you do need determination to get past the fear, the actual issue is a sort of palpable strain on the body. She got through by building physical strength through walking around.

I find it interesting that Thin Man's qualia theory appears to be a dead end.
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: Caffinator on March 04, 2017, 10:46:10 am
I don't like the sound of this. I wonder if the cat will try to switch the girl and Maytag's places?

I wondered the same thing and it way that the cat-thing said "current carrier" leads me to believe that Eye will be able to leave because she's no longer the "current carrier". I'm sure you can follow where that line of thinking leads...
That will certainly make things difficult for May to report back to Thin Man not to mention ever see Bern again. I'm really eager now to see how she gets out of this situation. Perhaps when Eye leaves, Thin Man will be able to ask her the right questions to figure out how to get May back out again. Maybe the other girl (I forget the name) will follow May's lead (now that there is a working method to penetrate Dark Cell) and take her place as the permanent carrier of the storm.
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on March 04, 2017, 11:57:20 am
Good point. Of course, May being May, will probably refuse and just leave, walking back through the Storm anyway.
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: monimoni on March 04, 2017, 12:15:37 pm
Read that passage again. The intense fear was a distraction. While you do need determination to get past the fear, the actual issue is a sort of palpable strain on the body. She got through by building physical strength through walking around.

I found the page in question: http://flipside.keenspot.com/comic.php?i=2647 "the stress is what makes it so difficult to move in dark cell".
Maybe I missed the part where they mentioned a physical barrier. I guess that the kind of fear in phase 1 is something of the extreme, even impossible to imagine. It should probably have more to do with general fitness and heart condition than body type. Anyways, I don't think it's that.

Quote
I find it interesting that Thin Man's qualia theory appears to be a dead end.
Indeed, or maybe May hasn't asked the right questions yet. It's all too freaky still.
Title: Re: Chapter 47: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on March 04, 2017, 02:46:08 pm
Read that passage again. The intense fear was a distraction. While you do need determination to get past the fear, the actual issue is a sort of palpable strain on the body. She got through by building physical strength through walking around.

I found the page in question: http://flipside.keenspot.com/comic.php?i=2647 "the stress is what makes it so difficult to move in dark cell".
Maybe I missed the part where they mentioned a physical barrier. I guess that the kind of fear in phase 1 is something of the extreme, even impossible to imagine. It should probably have more to do with general fitness and heart condition than body type. Anyways, I don't think it's that.

Quote
I find it interesting that Thin Man's qualia theory appears to be a dead end.
Indeed, or maybe May hasn't asked the right questions yet. It's all too freaky still.

A few things.

Basically, I think I would put it like this. It's basically like agoraphobia. When you go outside with such a condition after being a shut-in for months/years, the stress creates a physical sensation (high blood pressure, actual muscle strain, etc). But now that I see the other comments, I have a different theory about everything.

The qualia aren't something known to the two inside. This tells me Eye, at least, is innocent. And possibly that that term was something coined by Lehm and not their proper name. If she showed the painting CS3, she would like be like "Oh yeah, that's a..."

 Back to the barrier. I suspect that not everyone enters the Dark Cell the same way. As in, probably when the original carrier dies, the Dark Cell opens up somewhere and random people enter, only to become the new host. The space closes around them, giving them despair, which they can't overcome, and they are trapped inside the cell with CS3. They can't of course leave unless someone switches off with them.
 
Which brings us to our side note. Cybele Surrogate Three. I suspect, surrogate as in, a replacement for the original Cybele. If I had to guess, I would say that Cybele (whatever her full name is) is likely the creator of the qualia, and there are three (at least) synthetic lifeforms made as substitutes (surrogates) to house her knowledge set and act as company for the one trapped in the Dark Cell. The interesting part is, CS3 is probably also jailer. She gave her back her eyes, hoping that it will trap her. So yeah, more likely Phase 3.

So basically, it isn't so much that she is trapped so much as the black aura surrounding her makes it unthinkable for her to leave (she'd be taking a huge zone of negativity with her. Usually, that makes it a "stay until you die, or find someone worthy to replace you" issue. However, all of this changes if May is able to somehow suppress or subdue the negative energy.