Comics Discussion => Flipside Discussion => Topic started by: Brion Foulke on December 09, 2011, 11:56:37 am
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This is the thread for discussing chapter 31.
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... Wow, I'm almost surprised the audience laughed at that last part. I know I'd be hard pressed to laugh after hearing over 30 min of someone's life story.
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Though my opinions about Maytag and her performance have not changed after the side story, we're less than 1 page into the next chapter, I don't think we need to start it with some hatin' guys.
What I am excited to see is how this latest cover will be coloured. I think the costume design in this comic is great, for both genders, so I always get a little excited to see cover art that features fully clothed full body artwork. ;D
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... Wow, I'm almost surprised the audience laughed at that last part. I know I'd be hard pressed to laugh after hearing over 30 min of someone's life story.
Yeah, same here, that part seemed a little forced.
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Though my opinions about Maytag and her performance have not changed after the side story, we're less than 1 page into the next chapter, I don't think we need to start it with some hatin' guys.
Legitimate criticism and 'hating' are not the same. And I agree it seems unlikely that an audience almost entirely comprised of strangers who came to be entertained would then sit and listen to an hour of a girl talking about her mental health problems.
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... Wow, I'm almost surprised the audience laughed at that last part. I know I'd be hard pressed to laugh after hearing over 30 min of someone's life story.
Maybe the other performers are REALLY bad? =/
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Yeah, it is terribly unbelievable, but I'm not so bothered. Kind of fits in with the comic's kinda-cheesy older anti-hero comics feel. In any other story it would really stand out, but I don't think it's so bad in this one.
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... Wow, I'm almost surprised the audience laughed at that last part. I know I'd be hard pressed to laugh after hearing over 30 min of someone's life story.
Maybe the other performers are REALLY bad? =/
Seems so...
Cause really listening to such life story we witnessed in chapter A is not something which would make me laugh in any way, that little sexual joke in the end may be just a little warm up for the rest of May's act here.
If that will be all then maybe May will win by doing the thing she did all the time, she established the connection with audience here through telling her life story, so they would remember her, and vote later, if all acts will be jokes, in the end you will remember than one rather serious story.
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I don't know if all the acts are jokes (and I know a lot of people have used the defense of "it's an entertainment competition not a comedy competition," but Maytag is a *jester* whose acts have always been about making people laugh), but either way, an hour of hearing her life story would make me want pretty much anyone else on stage.
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Let me say this... I've been thinking about this a lot lately. I am not a great comedy writer... there are other people who could probably write a much better comedy monologue for Maytag to recite than me. But, IMO, to write a comedy monologue for Maytag that would come across as funny is basically impossible in comic book form. Comedy monologues just don't translate to written form. There's too much nuance in the way a joke is told that just doesn't translate to written material.
Which is why I decided that the best thing to do with her act is to "cheat"... you'll see what I mean by "cheat" in a couple of pages, if you can't already guess.
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Brion,
I wouldn't worry about it. If you were a great comedy writer to match Maytag you'd have a nice side job :)
Like others I found the set up and detailing of her being on the verge of schizophrenic to be anything but 'funny material'. It goes back to what I said at the end of the last chapter at not getting her approach. (I know I'd be staring at her after such a reminiscence much as folk rubberneck at disasters. It attracts attention, but isn't something you want to get closer to.) However, I'm happy to suspend disbelief for the reasons you stated and because 'it is the way it is' :P
I certainly enjoy the comic as a whole. If this reveal comes off awkward or people critique it a bit, it is likely because you set high standards with your storytelling. Keep on keeping on
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Brion,
It's really reassuring, actually, to know that you are at least aware that it's something to keep in the back of your mind. I'm the worst person ever at trying to guess what's coming, so I am going to trust that you have a way to work it out without it seeming extraordinarily unreasonable. I hope you didn't think that the criticisms were too harsh, and I totally have loved this comic since I found it. I don't think I, or anyone, truly expected you to have some hilarious set for Maytag. Like I said, I'm just thankful that you are a strong enough writer that you are able to acknowledge what your limitations are and to find ways to compensate for them in the story world (ie, letting her 'cheat' at the competition). I look forward to seeing how you tie this up.
Thank you so much for this story you've posted online for us all to read.
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So she takes forever telling her life story in a contest that was supposed to be all about short performances and no one finally pulls her off the stage?
Ugh...
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So she takes forever telling her life story in a contest that was supposed to be all about short performances and no one finally pulls her off the stage?
Ugh...
The image of Maytag being pulled off stage with a hook, vaudeville style, is absolutely hilarious to me.
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"anything that moves"?
Have you been reading tvtropes again? ;)
Also, I don't think its possible to have sex with an asexual reproducer, like starfish and some mollusks.
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"anything that moves"?
Have you been reading tvtropes again? ;)
Also, I don't think its possible to have sex with an asexual reproducer, like starfish and some mollusks.
Well, not quite. She DID turn down Moss, TWICE, until he held her friends hostage.
However, that beings said. I LIKE the ending. It really has that "Maytag" feel to it, and provides an excellent, noble motive for wanting a show. It's not easy to form a relationship with the audience.
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Hmph. Who IS the pessimist that thinks Maytag won't go any farther? ??? Jerk... >:(
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Hmph. Who IS the pessimist that thinks Maytag won't go any farther? ??? Jerk... >:(
I'm getting a more ominous vibe, like he's gonna do something to remove her from contention because she is a threat to him.
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Hmph. Who IS the pessimist that thinks Maytag won't go any farther? ??? Jerk... >:(
I'm getting a more ominous vibe, like he's gonna do something to remove her from contention because she is a threat to him.
He's one of the organizers.
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Which is why I decided that the best thing to do with her act is to "cheat"... you'll see what I mean by "cheat" in a couple of pages, if you can't already guess.
If today's page is what you were referring to, it....didn't work. One of the golden rules of writing is 'show, don't tell' but in an instance like this - where you're writing about a comedy performer but admit you yourself cannot write comedy - the rule is really more 'show or tell'. In this case, if literally all we knew about this performance was Bob's feedback then fine, we all have an imagination, we can fill in the blanks. But after I've read some of Maytag's monologue - with samples ranging from the unfunny to the downright tragic - I simply can't suspend my disbelief that far. I can't think 'oh, well if this guy says it was funny then I guess it was?' It's kind of an insult to the reader's intelligence to expect them to accept a character's word, particularly the word of a new character they don't know yet, when there's already evidence to the contrary.
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Yep, this page is exactly what I meant by "cheat." I realized that with a comedy act it's better to tell than to show.
"the rule is really more 'show or tell'"
But I couldn't do that in this case. It had to be both. Even if you say that the scene as it is "doesn't work," the alternative is to skip from her clothes being torn away to the moment she walks off stage. I don't think I need to explain why this wouldn't work. You need to at least see a few scenes of her up there, get a sense of how the show went, what she talked about, and how it ended in order for the narrative to make sense.
"But after I've read some of Maytag's monologue - with samples ranging from the unfunny to the downright tragic"
Hmm, look I don't think I'm a great comedy writer either... but I honestly think you're exaggerating here. Think about it this way... if you were to take the monologue of any comedian, even someone as brilliant as George Carlin and write it down, a lot of the time it's not gonna seem very funny. I don't think you can emphatically say that her routine isn't funny based on what is written on the page... and furthermore, it's not like I've shown you her entire routine. In fact, you barely see any of it. You see the very beginning as she starts to go into it, and you see a short scene from the end. As that is the case, I don't think it's necessary for you to suspend any disbelief, as you don't have enough evidence to go on either way.
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Yeah, we saw her actual story, and not much of her performance.
Also, frankly, I gotta agree with the negative dude. Laughs or gtfo. Sorry Maytag.
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You need to at least see a few scenes of her up there, get a sense of how the show went, what she talked about, and how it ended in order for the narrative to make sense.
Not nearly as much as there was. I know you aim for 'print comic' pacing but even reading the whole lot in one go, it dragged.
What would have been more effective is to have a much quicker run-up from this page (http://flipside.keenspot.com/comic.php?i=1319) to the end of the chapter - most of Maytag's explanation as to why she has two personalities could have been cut while losing nothing, because it's explained in the side story and then reiterated at the beginning of the next chapter. We don't need to be told something three times; that ten pages could have been five. Remember, she's fighting to keep the audience at this stage. They don't know her, they have no reason to like her or sympathise with her, and by this point she's not even standing there naked any more. The best way to keep them on side is by initially supplying as little information as possible, so it's not 'So I pretend to have two different personalities because I want to be liked - want to know how that happened?', it's 'So I pretend to have two different personalities - want to know why?'
Then after the first three panels (http://flipside.keenspot.com/comic.php?i=1377) of the next chapter, Maytag wraps up with a completely ludicrous punchline - it doesn't matter what it is - and there's a reaction shot of the audience utterly wetting themselves with laughter (as opposed to sound effects). Then she can make a joke of the fact that nothing she's talked is inherently funny - maybe a deadpan 'I guess my scarring childhood trauma is pretty hilarious after all, it must be my delivery' (which also serves as a meta-joke for the reader, if you're into that sort of thing, since of course we don't know anything about her delivery). Then chop the next two pages into one - show's over now, she shouldn't want to overstay her welcome after a challenging routine but she definitely is - and then we're where we are now.
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What would have been more effective is to have a much quicker run-up from this page (http://flipside.keenspot.com/comic.php?i=1319) to the end of the chapter - most of Maytag's explanation as to why she has two personalities could have been cut while losing nothing, because it's explained in the side story and then reiterated at the beginning of the next chapter.
It's redundant for a reason. You're forgetting that the side story is a book exclusive... it'll be taken down from the website. Reread it with that in mind and tell me if you still think it drags.
Then after the first three panels (http://flipside.keenspot.com/comic.php?i=1377) of the next chapter, Maytag wraps up with a completely ludicrous punchline - it doesn't matter what it is - and there's a reaction shot of the audience utterly wetting themselves with laughter (as opposed to sound effects). Then she can make a joke of the fact that nothing she's talked is inherently funny - maybe a deadpan 'I guess my scarring childhood trauma is pretty hilarious after all, it must be my delivery' (which also serves as a meta-joke for the reader, if you're into that sort of thing, since of course we don't know anything about her delivery). Then chop the next two pages into one - show's over now, she shouldn't want to overstay her welcome after a challenging routine but she definitely is - and then we're where we are now.
Sorry, but that doesn't really work for me. First, in your version it's implied that the audience is laughing *at* Maytag... that's the *opposite* of what this scene is supposed to accomplish. Second, if she acts clueless as to what they're laughing about, it implies that she's been telling her story in an overly serious manner. That actually *does* undermine the credibility of the judges when they claim she did a good job of keeping humor through-out the act, much more than anything I wrote. It also makes her seem like she's not really in control of the audience. Third, to cut those two pages into one is to rush the scene too much, in my opinion. It plays better the way it is with a little page long speech by Maytag wrapping up the scene. If you rush this scene too much it will lose any of the impact it was supposed to have.
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To be fair if we would cut the extra chapter A story out, and just concentrate on last page of chapter 30 and then first pages of 31 it makes sense, since we didn't witness her telling the story just we got a narration of the scene where the judge says that May managed to sneak humor into it, and who knows it was funny, if in last part May uses her standard sexual jokes, then she could use it for whole time in the story, and by telling her personal story she got the real connection with the audience at what she aimed for, who aside of laughing at her jokes, had to be captivated by the story itself a little.
But I would agree with Bob here, it's a comedy club, so who makes the audience laugh more and longer wins, so in my understanding if there were performers who beaten May in this field, she shouldn't win, but it looks the story in form of Clay will turn this around about something grasping real connection with audience and not cheap laughs so May will win/get into another round.
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I agree, without the side story this whole "But it's NOT entertaining" discussion could be moot because it would be easier to suspend disbelief.
That being said, I waited a few days, came back and read the developments, and feel my initial assessment was fairly right: wait a little for more than 1 page, and the author will justify the story somewhat. Whatever you think about Maytag as a character, I think how her show is being dealt with by the judges is fair. Thanks for "saving" it back into believablity, Bryon. :)
Edit: this opinion will change if the last guy on the judge panel overrules the other critic by saying "well, even though it's a comedy club, this was more entertaining, so let's let her stay in"
I would believe that this performance could earn her an independent supporter for her show, or have the winner of the show give over the title (and cash) for her instead. I would not believe this performance could allow her to win the contest itself. That would relate more to my main critique, "everybody loves Maytag! Maybe a little too much!" :P
Still waiting eagerly to see what Bernadette is doing, though. And what Crest and Suspira are up to. And Moss and Fata Morgana. And even Bloody Mary! All of these people are keeping me much more engaged that Maytag is. *hops from foot to foot eagerly*
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There is going be three winners, so May doesn't necessarily need to win first place to get her own show.
I think it should be pointed out that they are performing at a theater and not a comedy club. Not saying this isn't a comedy competition, since the few other participates we've seen have been comedy acts, but nothing presented in the story says that is the only thing acts have to be.
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Can't believe I missed them calling it a comedy club in the latest strip. I assumed from the Chapter 29, Page 7 strip that it was a more multipurpose theater.
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I agree, without the side story this whole "But it's NOT entertaining" discussion could be moot because it would be easier to suspend disbelief.
That being said, I waited a few days, came back and read the developments, and feel my initial assessment was fairly right: wait a little for more than 1 page, and the author will justify the story somewhat. Whatever you think about Maytag as a character, I think how her show is being dealt with by the judges is fair. Thanks for "saving" it back into believablity, Bryon. :)
Edit: this opinion will change if the last guy on the judge panel overrules the other critic by saying "well, even though it's a comedy club, this was more entertaining, so let's let her stay in"
I would believe that this performance could earn her an independent supporter for her show, or have the winner of the show give over the title (and cash) for her instead. I would not believe this performance could allow her to win the contest itself. That would relate more to my main critique, "everybody loves Maytag! Maybe a little too much!" :P
Still waiting eagerly to see what Bernadette is doing, though. And what Crest and Suspira are up to. And Moss and Fata Morgana. And even Bloody Mary! All of these people are keeping me much more engaged that Maytag is. *hops from foot to foot eagerly*
Crest and Suspira are in the audience actually. Moss and Fata Morgana are getting "free" lodging and meals by stealing Maytag's identity and paying for their purchases with illusory coins. Bloody Mary was last seen hunting bandits and eating them. She may still be doing so, at least until the phalanx finally catches her. Bernadette, well she's done going down memory lane with an old flame (we hope). Actually, I'd like to see what MELTER is up to. He promised "thin man" to capture Maytag. He can't just be sitting around idly.
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There are important things to cover, how other(Crest,Suspiria,Regina) will react to May confession, we can assume May will be given that position so she would need to stay here for a while, also Bern should have some important resolution of finding her father and also the whole deal with Polly, maybe some move in Crest/Suspiria situation, and of course there's also the guy who need to kidnap May for Thin Man, and Fata with Moss playing up May reputation here and there.
Not mentioning Bloody Mary and maybe some other deadly Thin Man creations showing up...
There's so many interesting things to cover.
Also Christmas strip update:
A) orgy
B) no orgy
C) become Saiyan (lol Crest)
:D
Can I hope that next update/s we will get other characters Christmas wishes in similiar maneer?
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There are important things to cover, how other(Crest,Suspiria,Regina) will react to May confession, we can assume May will be given that position so she would need to stay here for a while, also Bern should have some important resolution of finding her father and also the whole deal with Polly, maybe some move in Crest/Suspiria situation, and of course there's also the guy who need to kidnap May for Thin Man, and Fata with Moss playing up May reputation here and there.
Not mentioning Bloody Mary and maybe some other deadly Thin Man creations showing up...
There's so many interesting things to cover.
Also Christmas strip update:
A) orgy
B) no orgy
C) become Saiyan (lol Crest)
:D
Can I hope that next update/s we will get other characters Christmas wishes in similiar maneer?
Yes! You are all MY FOOD!
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Well, Mr. Cigar does have a point. Many people look to entertainment to escape their lives, even for a little while.
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I gotta agree with Regina here, even for me as a reader who followed this comic for years, this May true nature revelation made her a stranger for me, more than I would want or expect.
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Definitely had a profound impact, perhaps not the one May would have liked, however.
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I'm interested in how Maytag's mentor's will respond to her little revelation. After all, they unwittingly started this... ???
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Oh, boy. Crest is in for a major adjustment here. Yeah, he's angry. Understandably so. This is going to be a lot of work. May, you're going to have to let him cool off for a while.
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I'm more affected by the situation why Suspiria is so tired now where she needs sleep...
Some delayed effect of her being tampered by that Thin Man assistant?
And knowing Crest he will get used to this new-old May quickly, we saw that May is good at befriending people knowing how she should act and what points press around different ones to maximise the effect.
If current May personality is a constant thing where she acts like she acts as a result of mixing all personalities into one depending on situation naturally, not doing it on purpose herself, then I think other will understand.
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"I want to talk to the May that comes out when you get serious." Good one, Crest.
Suspira could be tired for many reasons. It could be that Melter did something to her, it could be all the bottled up grief about her dead boyfriend, or it could be that she's doing too much too quickly to keep from feeling the pain. Or any combination of the above.
Crest is doing real well riding this emotional roller coaster.
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The way crest has dealt with suspira has made me warm to his character a lot, i mean, i never disliked him, but i never really connected with him as a major character till now. Especially because of his absense in chapter 0. Oh well, no matter how he grows may and bern will always be the main characters to me.
And in my head i viewed may's speech and her backstory as seperate, simply told to allow, us, the reader, to learn about maytag as her friends did, while not actually being true to her speech as her speech would be filled with a lot more annecdotes and jokes, while the story was cleaned up for reader's sake.
Also, kudos brion, it's hard to write a character like maytags and have it feel realistic, or, at the other end of the spectrum, have the reader feel like her back-story dosen't fit with her character. You have managed to avoid oth those problems, so well done! Loving it
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'S a funny thing... we do this thing Maytag is currently defending (ie wear an identity-mask in front of most people IRL, though for protection rather than likeability) and can't agree with her on the "it's not lying" front. It is lying, but she's got so good at the lie that she's fooled herself.
'Course, we also don't use the word "personality" quite the same way she does, so it's all a bit wibbly really.
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No, maytag has been acting that way so long that it's second nature to her, she would have to actually TRY to act diferently, that to me is your personality, the way you act when not delibrately trying to act in a specific way. Yes, at first she was lying about who she was, but eventually she pretended for so long that she became the person (read people) she was pretending to be. Meaning she is no longer lying.
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Love the glaring contest, and May with her serious emotionless face looks kinda scary.
So the change is portrayed with different iris style(for reader's conveniance)?
Looking at previous page we didn't get to see May looking like that during contest, so May can switch off at will her other personalities traits returning to her original emotionless one?
It is handy.
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I actually think her "ability" to be like *close eyes real hard, ok, new personality!* is pretty damning. If it was really "natural" and not being faked then I would be surprised if she could switch that easily without real provocation.
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Maytag, sweetie, I hate to tell you this, I mean I REALLY don't want to, but wearing personalities like masks IS lying. It's arguably the worst form of lie there is. You may not be INTENDING to deceive people, but when you wear different personalities for different occasions and switch them around like that, you ARE being very deceptive.
It's a major impediment to true intimacy. People can't be intimate with one another if they can't figure out what the other person is really like.
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It looks kinda funny how May seems to not being able to comprehend what Crest problem here is with her, after all she tells him now the truth and acts like he wanted, and he is still unhappy.
We see Bern on the central spot on the cover, so I wonder if we wil shift to her finding father adventure soon, or maybe will get her talk with May about this.
Or maybe Bern explaining May condition to Polly later how she sees it from her side.
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I still agree with may more than crest, maybe because i see a lot of parelels with myself.
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I kinda like how Crest is getting so emotional over May's act. but i really want to see Suspira's reaction. lolz.
Cant wait to see what happens next.
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Haha. I thought cheating was the worst kind of lying.
I can relate to May. So I sympathize. Something about who we are deep down inside drives us to be the way they are. If there is a hidden self, then it is meant to be protected, and shared only with those who deserve full trust. It's an honor to really know someone, and I think that's why some people are upset with May. But it's up to her to do what's best for herself. She may try changing, but I do believe that most of us have some things about ourselves that just won't change, or are very difficult to change. And I feel those things will help us see the truth of who she really is.
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Haha. I thought cheating was the worst kind of lying.
I can relate to May. So I sympathize. Something about who we are deep down inside drives us to be the way they are. If there is a hidden self, then it is meant to be protected, and shared only with those who deserve full trust. It's an honor to really know someone, and I think that's why some people are upset with May. But it's up to her to do what's best for herself. She may try changing, but I do believe that most of us have some things about ourselves that just won't change, or are very difficult to change. And I feel those things will help us see the truth of who she really is.
Cheating ALSO involves putting on other personalities as masks. There's the "faithful spouse" mask, the "single guy" mask, the "compassionate lover" mask, and so on.
I really can't blame Crest here. It's rapidly becoming a case of "the more I know, the less I like." It's not easy finding out the person you know and love was all just "an act" to get people to like her. Granted, it's one thing to realize the persona ON STAGE is an act, it's quite another to find out the personality you've met in more intimate settings is.
Crest is absolutely correct. You can't tell if your moral compass is compatible with someone else, if you can't tell what kind of compass the other person has, or even if she has a compass at all.
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I have to say that I really GET this. As someone who started out as basically an unsocialized, clueless robot, choosing a personality I liked and then becoming that person was how I first started to come out of my private world. At first it was an act I put on, but gradually it did become the real me. If I hadn't strove to become a different person, I'd still be a cave-dwelling sociopath and not ROSSTIN MURPHY, GENTLEMAN ADVENTURER! But, you know, if I need to I can put on an effort of will and become that robot again. (Which can be really useful sometimes.)
I'd have to say a) Maytag probably underestimates how much of this "mask" thing has become who she really is.
b) I'm surprised that she would think it was a good idea to reveal this in the way she did. Making a careful study of human nature was one of the things that made her decide to put on this act. She should have predicted that people would be repulsed and just never mentioned this fact. Or at least told the story in a different way.
Anyway, I'm 100% in defense of Maytag. She was depressed and felt unlikeable. She found something she wanted to be. And she became it, and people loved her. Any bullshit you have to say about "be yourself" or "putting on an act is a lie"... you probably just don't know what it's like to feel alienated in that am-I-a-human-being way.
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It's interesting that the discussion moved specifically onto talking about different personalities as masks. Intentionally or not Goffman's theories have been stumbled into. Azure Priest particularly with their talk of the different masks a cheater will wear. However I think what has been overlooked is that we all wear different masks to some extent. For instance you might have an "Internet mask", or a "Work mask", "Family mask", "Romantic mask". The idea is that underneath all these masks there's a real, innate, personality. A personality which can only come out at certain times and will be identified as real. Yet rather than being innate, perhaps it's actually yet another mask - a mask we've crafted for ourselves. Our "Real self mask".
The point is, having different personalities for different things isn't an uncomfortable concept. We do change our personalities so that we can try and get the best reactions out of people (even if that best reaction is no reaction at all). Further those personalities do become "us" over time, even if we don't view them as the "real us". The upset with May seems to be her ability to do this consciously and seamlessly, and her reluctance to ever return to putting on her "Real self mask". The problem for her I feel is that she hasn't really crafted this mask. It has bits and bobs on it, but she can't really describe it as being 'her' as there's no personality connected with it. I wonder if part of the next few chapters will be May constructing this mask for herself.
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I have to say that I really GET this. As someone who started out as basically an unsocialized, clueless robot, choosing a personality I liked and then becoming that person was how I first started to come out of my private world. At first it was an act I put on, but gradually it did become the real me. If I hadn't strove to become a different person, I'd still be a cave-dwelling sociopath and not ROSSTIN MURPHY, GENTLEMAN ADVENTURER! But, you know, if I need to I can put on an effort of will and become that robot again. (Which can be really useful sometimes.)
I'd have to say a) Maytag probably underestimates how much of this "mask" thing has become who she really is.
b) I'm surprised that she would think it was a good idea to reveal this in the way she did. Making a careful study of human nature was one of the things that made her decide to put on this act. She should have predicted that people would be repulsed and just never mentioned this fact. Or at least told the story in a different way.
Anyway, I'm 100% in defense of Maytag. She was depressed and felt unlikeable. She found something she wanted to be. And she became it, and people loved her. Any bullshit you have to say about "be yourself" or "putting on an act is a lie"... you probably just don't know what it's like to feel alienated in that am-I-a-human-being way.
THIS
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I am reminded of an American Indian story I heard as a child. If I could remember the tribe it came from, I'd put that in, but my memory is jack for how long its been.
A lowly thief fell in love with the tribe's princess, but he was too ugly and his heart too greedy for her to ever love him. He crafted a mask of a handsome man who was virtuous. He wore the mask in meeting her and her father. He did great deeds, anything for the princess to love him. Finally, she fell in love with him. It was all he ever wanted. They were to marry and he stayed true to being the man she fell in love with. She wanted to see him for who he was and demanded he remove his mask or she would not marry him. He said he did not want to take it off, he was ugly inside and out and she would not love an ugly man. She demanded again. He took off the mask. She accused him of lying which he couldn't understand why. She said he was not ugly in and out. He looked the same without the mask as he did with it on. He had worn the mask so long and acted as a good man for so long that he had become the mask he wore. The lowly thief was no more.
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Just a short pop in after a while. I agree with Crest, though I think he is being a little cruel in that last panel. May and Crest are very similar in that they are both excellent readers of people. Crest however seems to get into more trouble but also has more "likability" to me as a reader because his reactions to people - and situations - are genuine, not studied to produce the best results as May does. At least I like to think this of him - this is why he seemed a useless putz at the beginning of the story and now a likable kid at this point. Great character development, and nice to see May's own people reading skills being turned on herself.
I think Suspira is sleeping a lot because she is still depressed over Kin. Depression can make you do that. I am hoping she doesn't decide to off heeself at some point, actually, because those are the signs I read in her behaviour.
I still am not really a big fan of Maytag anymore due to what I see as the slightly over idealized heroine character portrayal. She will cry, she will be hurt by her friends and possibly her lover, they will all be mad at her, she will be kidnapped and put in extreme danger during this time of estrangement, everyone will have the big revelation about how much they like her when she's gone, and then she will come back (or perhaps be brought back by a collective rescue attempt) and there will be tears of joy and begging for forgiveness... that is my prediction. Oh, except for Moss, who will be a cool kat. His girlfriend will go apeshit, though.
If this does not happen, I will be very happy. :-)
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Anyway, I'm 100% in defense of Maytag. She was depressed and felt unlikeable. She found something she wanted to be. And she became it, and people loved her. Any bullshit you have to say about "be yourself" or "putting on an act is a lie"... you probably just don't know what it's like to feel alienated in that am-I-a-human-being way.
"Be yourself" is certainly bullshit, but "putting on an act is a lie" is, by definition, true. We'd be far, far more likely to get murdered - legally killed, even - as ourselves than as the lie. But that doesn't make it any less a lie. It might not even make the lie right. Kinda undecided on that one, heh. It doesn't mean we recognise the man in the mirror, or remember any but the barest details of what his life was like. It doesn't stop me from feeling guilty every time we look at his mother, and wondering how we could ever possibly break the truth to her. And none of us can figure out what a human being is supposed to feel like. Don't s'pose you have any clues?
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Todays page just made me realise exactly what bugs me about crest, he's so wrapped up in what he thinks, and how he feels, that he dosen't consider others, and as a result makes my favorite character cry!
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Not sure she can be believed, even with the waterworks.
She could well mean 'I promise I'll never let you in on any more of my deceptions' ;)
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Whether or not tears were a part of Maytag's 'true' personality in her youth, I would suggest she is very much capable of genuine tears now. She alludes to it during internal monologue - where one would assume there's no reason to perform.
http://flipside.keenspot.com/comic.php?i=594
(There's also an interesting line on the prior page: "Well... I guess I can't blame Bern for having emotions... It's not her fault she has em!" [sic])
So at the moment I'm inclined to believe May when she says her tears are real. Other than that I'm a little confused by how to interpret the current page. She stops crying, but then seems to start yelling an apology in what looks like anger?
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Just because someone dosen't feel emotion most of the time, dosen't mean they are incapable of it. While may may not be very emotional, i'm sure that she can still feel pain when someone she cares about speaks to her harshly, and the way crest is treating her right now is far from kind, and to have your friend treat you like that is going to hurt someone, especially someone who used to struggle to make friends and therefore would feel a lot closer to those she does have.
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It's now Maytag's turn to be patient. She just dropped a big freaking bombshell on everybody and expected them to be A-OK with it. SURPRISE! Doesn't work that way.
Changing your personality just so "everyone" likes you doesn't work. Sorry, it just doesn't. As we've just seen, even Maytag doesn't know who she is anymore.
Is Crest being deliberately cruel? I would think not. He's always been clumsy socially. In fact, that's one of the first reasons why he started hanging out with Maytag in the first place. So he could improve his social skills.
Fact is, he feels betrayed. We know he does NOT handle that well. Waterworks or no, Crest is going to need time to adjust to this "new" Maytag he just learned about.
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Just because someone dosen't feel emotion most of the time, dosen't mean they are incapable of it. While may may not be very emotional, i'm sure that she can still feel pain when someone she cares about speaks to her harshly, and the way crest is treating her right now is far from kind, and to have your friend treat you like that is going to hurt someone, especially someone who used to struggle to make friends and therefore would feel a lot closer to those she does have.
Having your friend lie to you about themselves is also very painful.
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Today's update basically summarise all of this into this clear trust argument, which for sure many readers, like me too were affected by.
I still can't understand at all why May thought it would be a good idea to tell her life story on this contest and reveal the truth behind her character/personalities like that, instead of some private talk just between friends, where also maybe Bern too would be included to soften the blow(I assume Bern knows about this in most part).
She is not an inexperienced kid, she should expect that people, especially closest to her, would react with negative attitude for such declaration.
It is indeed like it is, if once you tell all you are wearing many masks and try to fit your personality to people you meet so they would like you, and then show that your true self is some kind of emotionless entity, then she should not be surprised about this.
All of us wear different masks daily and act a bit differently if we deal with people from work, friends or family, for us and I assume other Flipside characters that's natural ability to do which we all learned through socialisation process, while May seems to be a person who simply couldn't achieve this naturally, just had to use such method as she used to get similia results as normal people which she brought to extreme.
The time mends all so I think in current situation that's the only solution to this, nothing which May will do will convince Crest, since he can easily turn every of her honest action into pretending made specially for him so he would start liking her again.
This kind of events will be harder for May to resolve than escaping from Bloody mary hideout.
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Other than that I'm a little confused by how to interpret the current page. She stops crying, but then seems to start yelling an apology in what looks like anger?
Yeah, I made a mistake when inking this page, she's supposed to still be crying in those bottom two panels. (Afterall she's still crying on the next page.) I fixed it now, so hopefully it makes more sense.
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Now would be a good time for Crest to say "give me time, May. It's not going to be easy to adjust to this" or "you once told me to be patient because someone has been through a lot. Now I'm going to have to ask you to be patient because this is a lot to take in."
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So we shift to Bern now.
In such situation I expect that Bern will first meet her father new family, maybe she will have a little sister and/or brother now, than meeting her father first...
I can't wait to see how this will develop, and I wodner if she will try to contact May so she would be with her on this event through the ring.
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I'm curious as to how Bern will explain away Polly. The point of the rings and portals was for May to be with Bern when she meets her father for the first time. So either Bern will have to have an explanation for who Polly is; she'll have to hide Polly; or she'll have to not tell May that she's meeting her father for the first time and perhaps bring her along for another meeting. Any of the solutions could have interesting implications for the plot.
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Well, my view on Maytags behavior is this, she's always been an emotionally different person. She learned to emulate emotions. Sure, she's learned to have some of her own now but, that doesn't make her an expert on people. Ever see the show The Big Bang Theory? Think of Sheldon. Highly intelligent, always observant of how other people interact, and he tries to fit in as best he can. Does it work? Hardly.
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The fact that you're comparing Maytag to a character from The Big Bang Theory kind of makes me feel like I've failed as a writer...
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The fact that you're comparing Maytag to a character from The Big Bang Theory kind of makes me feel like I've failed as a writer...
I can't blame you.
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I pretty much know I'm not the first to mention this (I'll read through the thread later I swear) but this chapter is obviously one about temptation and trust and for the first time we're seeing Bern being tempted when no spell is involved (enchantments and possessed people in baths do not count). I think it will be interesting. She has turned Blackbird away so far but I think we're getting a sense now that maybe her crush on Blackbird was stronger than we originally knew and is a little more than her "what if" girl to Bern. Perhaps Bern does fall into temptation. On the other side, May has run into Regina. It's not as surprising there as May goes through a will she cheat moment almost every chapter. What could be interesting is if May resists temptation and turns Regina away at the end of the chapter and Bern falls into temptation.
As far as Crest and Suspiria. I'm glad that suspiria's more down to earth now. Her character's really becoming more likeable. I just hope she doesn't completely lose that over confident edge she had at the beginning. I'm also glad that Crest has a possible relationship interest beyond May. THey're getting closer but I don't think Suspiria's quite ready for a committed relationship.
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... Headache? Recurring, debilitating headache!? Not good. Seems Melter DID leave her a present after all, especially considering Crest's expression in the last frame.
Suspira, sweetie. Headaches of that magnitude do NOT "go away on their own." You need a scan and fast. If the healers can't help you, then you find someone who can.
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yeah I was thinking something similar. It will be interesting to see how far Melter got in his process. Another question is the Thin Man the main one who alters the people? OR is he just their leader and Melter the specialist in what they are able to do to the people they kidnap.
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While I'm not taking back my opinion that the build-up and revelation of Maytag's 'split personality' were badly written and numbingly paced (even taking into account the presence/absence of the bonus chapter), I will say that I....genuinely loved the conversation between Maytag and Crest. (See guys, I don't indiscriminately hate everything Brion produces.) I did not anticipate reading the most emotive kind of scene - the kind where nobody is 'in the right' exactly but you sympathise with both of them anyway - but here we are.
What I'm seeing in Maytag here - rather, what I'm hoping I'm seeing - is someone almost Dexter Morgan-like. Not a perfect comparison, but by that I mean an extremely high-functioning sociopath. Someone with enough empathy to know exactly what people like to see but not quite enough to realise that those people will feel betrayed and frustrated when they realise that whatever her 'real' self might have been, it's become suppressed under layers of chameleonic assumed traits. After all, she's just been giving them what they want, right? The fourth panel right here (http://flipside.keenspot.com/comic.php?i=1447) hit me like a punch in the gut. If this is honestly the thesis statement for her entire life then I've found a reservoir of sympathy for this character I thought had completely dried up.
She doesn't understand people thoroughly enough to 'get' that what close friends really want is to know the 'real her', distinct from the show she puts on for everyone else - but variations on that show are all she has to offer. And she seems not to understand why Crest, Regina et al wouldn't see that as being enough.
If this is what Maytag is, if this is who she is, then I feel comfortable saying you've won back a reader - as in, someone who's reading out of genuine interest rather than morbid curiosity and nostalgic fondness for Book Zero. I'm just hoping this gets played to the fore.
Also, I'm enjoying Suspiria's 'ill person' hair although her follicular magic does emphasise the fact that if you shaved and washed most of the female cast you wouldn't be able to tell them apart.
(However, since I can't make a completely uncritical post, one small complaint is from this page (http://flipside.keenspot.com/comic.php?i=1441), sixth panel. 'Why are you pretending to have tears now'? Nobody talks like this. 'Why are you pretending to cry?' or 'Why are you crying? I know it's an act' - fine, but 'to have tears' sounds like a phrase from someone whose first language isn't English. Distractingly stilted. Try reading your dialogue out loud, or better yet, get someone to act it out with you.)
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Love the Dexter reference. I would agree that Maytag's act is more pronounced than others but it's basically what most of us do in public anyways. We don't wear our true selves. We put on a performance. I've been getting a feeling that Maytag was meant to represent that in people as I was reading through but I think this chapter gives a lot of credence to it. To call May a sociopath is a bit harsh but not entirely inaccurate. From what I've seen, it does not appear that May puts on the act with Bern at least to the extent as she does with others and a lot of it is how long has she really known Crest? She's opened up to Crest before this but while not knowing the complete time line it still seems a bit soon for her to start opening up to Crest.
As far as the multiple personas...that's not that abnormal either. We have different phases of our personality that we bring out based on who we are around as well. Again it's more designed as an exaggeration of that once again as to serve to show this. It's unfair to say the "act" she puts on when she's a jester is the true self more so then the "act" she plays when she's without that costume as it's probably more accurate to say that both can represent different portions of her personality. Being of high intelligence she has been able to meld them exactly how she wants them more than many.
It was actually kind of a Meh moment for me when she revealed it. Not because it was poorly written (I don't think it was) but more because I kind of already was again getting that impression and really I side more with May than Crest in this argument. I get that he thinks it's a violation of trust but you also can't expect someone to reveal their true selves at a pace they aren't comfortable with. I do understand why Crest was upset and I guess it's a bit unfair to say I really fault him as no one likes to feel that they've been lied to.
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That's a pretty good point. Anyone that's been to a formal dinner party with the family and a drinking party on Saturday night with friends should be able to grasp the extent that a personality can change, while still having the core similarities that make that person them. As for the life story vs humor question, I sorta gave it the benefit of the doubt. Some of the comments are very "maytagish" that were at least in character, and offscreen (during the actual life story comic) remarks might have been funnier. I mean granted that could be considered a weak explanation, but its the same an artist would use if he couldn't draw hands, just use a pose the hides the damn things. I'd rather go with that assumption if Brion is bad with humor than side through a slew of bad jokes and expect the reader to think them funny cause a character said so, now that would be insulting. At least in this scenario there's enough open that there can be benefit to the doubt, at least considering Maytag's background and character.
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What I'm seeing in Maytag here - rather, what I'm hoping I'm seeing - is someone almost Dexter Morgan-like.
Well I am a big fan of Dexter. Of course, it would feel cheap to copy his character.
Nobody talks like this. 'Why are you pretending to cry?' or 'Why are you crying? I know it's an act' - fine, but 'to have tears' sounds like a phrase from someone whose first language isn't English. Distractingly stilted. Try reading your dialogue out loud, or better yet, get someone to act it out with you.)
That doesn't really work, in my experience. What works better for me is to read over it again and think about it. But perhaps in some cases I don't take as much time to do that as I should. I think my dialogue is overall a lot better than it used to be, though. In any case, I think you're right that it would sound better with the word cry.
I mean granted that could be considered a weak explanation, but its the same an artist would use if he couldn't draw hands, just use a pose the hides the damn things. I'd rather go with that assumption if Brion is bad with humor than side through a slew of bad jokes and expect the reader to think them funny cause a character said so, now that would be insulting. At least in this scenario there's enough open that there can be benefit to the doubt, at least considering Maytag's background and character.
I still think that a "stand up comedy routine" is something that is virtually impossible to write and have it come across as "funny" on the written page. So it's not that I'm bad with humor, I'm think I'm okay with it, but just in the way that most comic writers are, by having funny reactions and infusing comedy into situations, etc. But honestly, I think that the path I'm taking by just telling the reader that her act was funny rather than showing it is the only effective path any comics writer could take.
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I noticed that Moby and the guy with the scouter (His name escapes me at the moment) are re-hashing what we've been discussing in the forums. CLEVER, Brion.
;D
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I noticed that Moby and the guy with the scouter (His name escapes me at the moment) are re-hashing what we've been discussing in the forums. CLEVER, Brion.
;D
His name is Glyph and yeah I noticed that.
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Is it bad that I'm slightly unsettled that Glyph is the one expressing my side of the argument?
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Don't see any reason why you should be unsettled
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Don't see any reason why you should be unsettled
Neither do I which is weird. I mean I guess he didn't give the best first impression but it wasn't that big of a deal for me and he's been fairly cool since. Maybe I just think he's supposed to represent the wrong side of the argument.
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(Sigh) May, there ARE some things that are just "private."
Yes, your "personality is an act" thing is something that people won't understand.
It might be a good idea to ask Glyph to use his scouter on Suspira's head. Headaches that can cripple you like that are NOT normal, and if sorcery was used on her, he can, at least see the trail, if not determine the spell. (He showed this ability when Bern was fighting the two sorcerers in the tower.)
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(Sigh) May, there ARE some things that are just "private."
Yes, your "personality is an act" thing is something that people won't understand.
It might be a good idea to ask Glyph to use his scouter on Suspira's head. Headaches that can cripple you like that are NOT normal, and if sorcery was used on her, he can, at least see the trail, if not determine the spell. (He showed this ability when Bern was fighting the two sorcerers in the tower.)
Actually this is true I was thinking of how The Thin Man doesn't leave any traces but this was Melter so there's a possibility something was left behind.
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Oh we finally get to see the big evil Thin Man himself!
Long hair and kinda big lips?
I wonder if he reminds anyone we saw already in the comic.
Also seems Melter planted some magical tracking device in Inverness head to check somehow on May, or maybe he through it will control Inverness to bring some distraction.
I wonder what he would do if May suddenly would disappear in the portal going to where Bern is, or maybe that situation would give him a possibility to try to capture her.
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I imagine it will lead to an opportunity to try to capture May. I don't think it's tracking so much in suspiria. She's been involved in a comedy performance that seems fairly big so it wouldn't have been difficult to find her without aid of Suspiria.
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Headaches that can cripple you like that are NOT normal
You mean a migraine? =U
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Hmm I wonder what will Bern see...
The title of the chapter is Anticlimax so no father/father is dead already scenario too could be plausible.
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May's being all logical when Bern probably wants her to be there when she knocks on the door so she can meet them together.
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Headaches that can cripple you like that are NOT normal
You mean a migraine? =U
Migraines often have triggers like bright lights or loud sounds (sometimes even drinking alcohol.) They also have a well-defined history.
Suspira's headaches have a "cause unknown," manifest at random, are of prolonged duration, and have NO well-defined history.
Is it just me, or does Melter look a bit more effeminate now than during the "Bloddy Mary" and "Tower" arcs?
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Headaches that can cripple you like that are NOT normal
You mean a migraine? =U
Migraines often have triggers like bright lights or loud sounds (sometimes even drinking alcohol.) They also have a well-defined history.
Suspira's headaches have a "cause unknown," manifest at random, are of prolonged duration, and have NO well-defined history.
Is it just me, or does Melter look a bit more effeminate now than during the "Bloddy Mary" and "Tower" arcs?
He does though that may just be that we're getting a better look at his face right now.
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Oh god, this so fits the chapter name...
So Bern father became a dirty drinking hobo?
Totally anticlimax.
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Oh god, this so fits the chapter name...
So Bern father became a dirty drinking hobo?
Totally anticlimax.
No. Bern's father is the KING of dirty drinking hobos. It's Frank Zappa (http://google.com/search?tbm=isch&hl=en&source=hp&biw=1400&bih=943&q=Frank+Zappa&gbv=2&oq=Frank+Zappa&aq=f&aqi=g10&aql=&gs_sm=3&gs_upl=3286l4694l0l4830l11l11l0l2l2l0l147l841l5.4l9l0)!
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I'll admit I didn't see this coming.
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Oh god, this so fits the chapter name...
So Bern father became a dirty drinking hobo?
Totally anticlimax.
No. Bern's father is the KING of dirty drinking hobos. It's Frank Zappa (http://google.com/search?tbm=isch&hl=en&source=hp&biw=1400&bih=943&q=Frank+Zappa&gbv=2&oq=Frank+Zappa&aq=f&aqi=g10&aql=&gs_sm=3&gs_upl=3286l4694l0l4830l11l11l0l2l2l0l147l841l5.4l9l0)!
I went a step further and thought of him as Frank Zappa in The Beatles' Yellow Submarine cartoon.
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I would have to think Bern's look is pretty recognizable with a bunch of red hair and as Blackbird would say a "Snow patch" but it almost looks like her father has her mistaken with someone else.
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Seems so, or he is so drunk he doesn't know what is he saying anymore...
Saying to your own daughter "Make yourself at home, babe" is rather insulting, and if I knew no better maybe he thinks Bern is a prostitute he ordered...
If she looks like her mother, and maybe the guy has some drink trauma about her and is ordering girls looking like her to use from time to time would explaing quite a bit.
Bern should be rather glad she didn't get May to see this, I got the feeling that Polly will be the one this time who will comfort Bern after this first encounter with the father.
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Bern: You... You know who I am?
Dad: Wut? No, I just think you're hot. Wanna get wasted and do it on the floor?
^ What I was thinking happens next :P
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Poor Bern never ever seems to catch a break in this comic, does she? Basically anytime something bad happens, she's not far away from it.
Sheesh.
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So my assumption that he would think Bern is some prostitute is true?
Hearing all that from her own father, who even doesn't recognise you in his kinda drunken state, damn, indeed, Bern happiness in the comic is a lacking thing.
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AWWW, he actually does think she's a prostitute! :sadface:
P.S. He can't be a hobo because he owns a house. Only homeless people can be hobos. ;P
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AWWW, he actually does think she's a prostitute! :sadface:
P.S. He can't be a hobo because he owns a house. Only homeless people can be hobos. ;P
Unless that's not really "his" house and he's just squatting there. Hobos squat.
Oh man, this is probably going to get real messy, real quick.
Yeah, May can't see it, but she can sure hear it, and she does not like what she hears.
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It's probably that he thinks she's a prostitute but what are the chances that Alver is actually his landlord or something and he thinks he sent her to collect rent? It's unlikely but if he caught a glimpse of her having a sword or something he may have thought that...the hitting on her could be a drunken ploy to get her to forget about collecting on the rent which he probably doesn't have in this scenario.
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Nope, just a guy disillusioned with life losing himself in the bottle and the whore of the day.
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Memory wiped? Or something else?
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Memory wiped? Or something else?
Well, to be totally fair, we can't 100% guarantee that this guy is Grant Lashoar. We also don't know for sure that Grant is Bernadette's father. All she's going on is the statement of a guy who claims he used to know Grant. It's also totally possible that her father got her mother pregnant and the mother didn't tell him. He might know who Bernadette is but not realize he's her father.
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Wasn't Bernadette raised in a brothel? Could it be that she was simply the result of a one-night stand, and her mother remembered that certain client, but not vice versa?
In any case, it seems misery enjoys company.
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Well, his surprise certainly sounds genuine.
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I hope the guy won't say something in style "I like them young! And I wanted to do you in time so I visited" or something like that :o
But really the guy seems to be surprised too, so maybe Bern's mother didn't tell him, and she told to Bern she had a great knight father while in reality he was just a failure who knocked a girl up by accident...
Would strip some delusions, not Grant the Geat Knight, but Grant the Nobody.
But then again that old knight seemed to know him, and his fighting style to suggest Bern to go after him for second sword...
A farce for Bern to learn the truth?
We see in cover that the guy uses one sword, not two.
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Well obviously he's using the other sword, since Bern has one of the two in the set.
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But the cover looks for me like flashback of this guy's younger days, not current time, so he should be using two.
Edit:
Seeing the update, well the simpliest explenations seems to work the best than trying to find some crazy theories 8)
So the guy thought that in fire the mother and also little Bern lost their lives, so no wonder he gone from there, and become a drunk...
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Dawwwww, this is such a touching moment...maybe... ???
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Wow. Just. Wow. This explains so much.
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So, which kind of knight is our Frank Zappa doppelganger? Failure knight, or knight in sour armor? Maybe he quit because he didn't approve of how the knights did things by being so uptight? But it seems things went downhill with him from then on...some sort of disenchantment with...everything?
If that's the case, his backstory seems somewhat similar to Sol Badguy's from Guilty Gear. Unfortunately, he's nowhere near as badass.
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Can't really blame his assessment. Every knight we've met has been seriously lacking in one respect or another while flaunting his self-proclaimed superiority over everyone.
The rest of the story should be good. Can Melter track portals? Because if not, he/she is going to be waiting a long time at the mage city.
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Can Melter track portals? Because if not, he/she is going to be waiting a long time at the mage city.
I thought it was only an hour?
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So will Bern now change her class from 'knight' into something else?
So we will get flashbacks of this guy's past as a knight?
I hope that May will meet Polly too in this chapter.
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But the cover looks for me like flashback of this guy's younger days, not current time, so he should be using two.
Edit:
Seeing the update, well the simpliest explenations seems to work the best than trying to find some crazy theories 8)
So the guy thought that in fire the mother and also little Bern lost their lives, so no wonder he gone from there, and become a drunk...
Well he taught Bern a style that requires two swords so it's safe to assume that he himself is at least familiar with fighting with two swords.
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The transition from page 7 to page 8 seems very abrupt! One moment she's hugging her father teary-eyed, the next a portal has suddenly opened and Bernadette is all the way across the room, helping Maytag through it. Did I miss something? We don't even see her dad reacting to the confirmation that he's her father. I mean, not that every single moment needs to be shown, but it really seems like an entire page is missing. Did this confuse anyone else?
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GRAMMATICAL ERROR! Bernadette mentions that she has one of the two swords and Orransong told her her dad would have "it's counterpart" when it should be spelled "its counterpart".
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Wouldn't surprise me if he really did lose it but it would surprise me less if he had at some point thrown the sword in a ravine with disgust...or if he has it and just doesn't want Bern to follow in his bad footsteps.
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I rather think he simply sold it to some pawnbroker for cash for booze and the girls and maybe he seems to be a bit ashamed about it :D
Maybe Polly will help Ben here since she knows this land much better in current times than them.
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LOL. Maytag completely called him out on it. Maybe that portal wasn't such a good idea. Or maybe it was so Maytag can get to the bottom of this, ya know, Maytag being all Maytag-y and all.
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Yeah which should have been the most obvious option but I overlooked it.
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Nice, I guessed it correctly :)
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I rather think he simply sold it to some pawnbroker for cash for booze and the girls and maybe he seems to be a bit ashamed about it :D
Maybe Polly will help Ben here since she knows this land much better in current times than them.
Maytag agrees with you.
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Can't pull anything over on the MT. ;D
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Bern's reaction here really bothers me. Who is she to demand that her father do something or act a certain way. She "thought the swords were important"? She was handed them by some old guy who had just helped get her kicked out of the Knights and told "oh yeah that guy who gave you some training tons of years ago was your dad and has the matching sword." She's reading a LOT into this situation and is, frankly, behaving like a child. She had some ideal in her head of what she thought her father would be like and now that he's an actual person with his own troubles and life, she's upset that he didn't fit neatly into the way she expected him to be.
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Bern's reaction here really bothers me. Who is she to demand that her father do something or act a certain way. She "thought the swords were important"? She was handed them by some old guy who had just helped get her kicked out of the Knights and told "oh yeah that guy who gave you some training tons of years ago was your dad and has the matching sword." She's reading a LOT into this situation and is, frankly, behaving like a child. She had some ideal in her head of what she thought her father would be like and now that he's an actual person with his own troubles and life, she's upset that he didn't fit neatly into the way she expected him to be.
I understand this comment but I have trouble blaming her. She based her whole life around her vision of who he was and now it's being shattered around her. Considering that, she could be acting a lot worse right now.
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She based her whole life around her vision of who he was and now it's being shattered around her.
She based her entire life around what she assumed someone was like. Now she's learning that he's an actual person and not this crazy ideal she's built up. It's her own fault for building up someone she doesn't know at all into this paragon of what she wants to be.
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She based her whole life around her vision of who he was and now it's being shattered around her.
She based her entire life around what she assumed someone was like. Now she's learning that he's an actual person and not this crazy ideal she's built up. It's her own fault for building up someone she doesn't know at all into this paragon of what she wants to be.
Try to put yourself in her situation she's a little girl raised and living in a brothel where she sees all ugliness coming from people, since that's not a pretty place for sure to be for a little girl.
Now she is visited and trained by some guy who is acting decent enough for her to admire him as a father figure, then we can also assume that her mother too speak higly about the guy enforcing her daughters visions, wanting to give her daughter some kind of moral compas figure in life.
So Bern build her life upon this idealised version of perfect father knight wanting to follow in his footsteps, she already got a cold shower from the Knights where she had to rearrange her ideals in life, now to fully shatter the picture she meets her father who was not a perfect knight at all, who now is just a fallen knight, who drinks, and has everything in the ass, and now will tell her the real story.
Life changing much?
I can't blame Bern here, she is desperately holding to last good moments from her childhood, even if they were not real, they were real for her.
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If she handled it too well, I think it would ring false.
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For clarification, just because her reaction upsets or annoys me doesn't mean I think it should have been written differently. This is definitely how I can see someone reacting in real life, and I'd get just as annoyed with someone in real life for expecting someone they've never really met to live up to some idealistic standard in their head.
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"What's happened to you" suggests there to be some sort of grandiose event that instantly turned him this way.
You know just like atheists all have that shining epiphany that instantly turns them away from religion and you can precisely put your finger on when it happened.
I bet her father had an exact moment like this instead of it being gradual or actually there all along. We have no idea how he actually was years ago besides berns obvious idealizations.
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"What's happened to you" suggests there to be some sort of grandiose event that instantly turned him this way.
You know just like atheists all have that shining epiphany that instantly turns them away from religion and you can precisely put your finger on when it happened.
I bet her father had an exact moment like this instead of it being gradual or actually there all along. We have no idea how he actually was years ago besides berns obvious idealizations.
"What happened to you" can be one incident, many sequential occurrences, or a long ongoing process.
Spending decades trying to drown your sorrows with wine and whores (because you think your daughter and her mother died in a fire) qualifies.
Bern's reaction is quite realistic here. She IS human, after all. Plus her father, if that is who we're seeing, would tend to turn into... THIS, after a decade or two of trying to drown his sorrows with wine and whores happened to him.
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Yeah loosing Bern and her mother had to be the final impact, but maybe the guy gradually started to dislike knights much earlier(cause from inside he saw the true faces of some of knights), where that Bern plus lover loose simple pushed him into dropping everything and do what he does now...
Problem is that Bern needs the sword too to be able to fight with mages, so let's hope that this father after sleeping a bit will awake a bit more sober to talk properly or at least try to recall to who he sold it.
And also he would tell them his real story.
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He clearly liked whores from the beginning since Bern's mother was from a brothel... This might not necessarily be some huge personality change.
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She based her whole life around her vision of who he was and now it's being shattered around her.
She based her entire life around what she assumed someone was like. Now she's learning that he's an actual person and not this crazy ideal she's built up. It's her own fault for building up someone she doesn't know at all into this paragon of what she wants to be.
Well you certainly are a negative person. I'm sure you at one point had someone that you looked up to. Someone you thought was perfect or as close to perfect as a human being could get. You were probably lucky enough to see enough on this person either in the news or in your life that you eventually realized slowly that this person was not the perfect figure you once thought he was but put yourself in Bern's shoes where she had someone like that only instead of being able to slowly realize that he was not the person she thought he was it was all dropped on her all at once. I think you'd be more than just a little upset yourself.
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Problem is that Bern needs the sword too to be able to fight with mages
Yeah... what gives anyway?
Why would she need that? There is no sorcerer that urgently needs slaying.
Did she just, like, want the second sword "just in case" she needs to slaughter some mages or something?
That's weird for someone whose whole shtick is counterattacks only, isn't it. Why the hell does she want that sword at all?
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She based her whole life around her vision of who he was and now it's being shattered around her.
She based her entire life around what she assumed someone was like. Now she's learning that he's an actual person and not this crazy ideal she's built up. It's her own fault for building up someone she doesn't know at all into this paragon of what she wants to be.
Well you certainly are a negative person. I'm sure you at one point had someone that you looked up to. Someone you thought was perfect or as close to perfect as a human being could get. You were probably lucky enough to see enough on this person either in the news or in your life that you eventually realized slowly that this person was not the perfect figure you once thought he was but put yourself in Bern's shoes where she had someone like that only instead of being able to slowly realize that he was not the person she thought he was it was all dropped on her all at once. I think you'd be more than just a little upset yourself.
I'm getting really frustrated at people acting like I ever said this was an inappropriate or unrealistic response. Does the response make sense from Bern's perspective? Yes of course it does. Do I think she should be an adult and accept the fact that maybe her 5 year old (or whatever age) vision of a person was incorrect? Someone who clearly was already a person who visited brothels and whatnot since he, y'know, had a child with a woman who worked at a brothel (probably).
So to sum up the same thing I've said in however many posts... yes, this is a realistic response, but it is still a frustrating response and a childish response. Bern needs to grow up and accept that people aren't perfect.
Edit to add the following:
First, you probably shouldn't make sweeping assumptions about the lives of people you've never met or even talked to. Second, I think it's untrue to call me a "negative person" because I believe Bern should accept her father for who he is and not for who she wants him to be.
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Problem is that Bern needs the sword too to be able to fight with mages
Yeah... what gives anyway?
Why would she need that? There is no sorcerer that urgently needs slaying.
Did she just, like, want the second sword "just in case" she needs to slaughter some mages or something?
That's weird for someone whose whole shtick is counterattacks only, isn't it. Why the hell does she want that sword at all?
Cause one sword doesn't work at all and it's need it's pair?
Also remember that the old guy said that this trip will help Bern to grow up but also she would need to learn some new style cause her current one is childish, and let's face it if Bern wants to be May knight then she needs some counter weapon against mages.
Or the whole sword thing is just a big fat lie which that old guy fabricated just to push Bern into looking for her father and learning the truth.
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Problem is that Bern needs the sword too to be able to fight with mages
Yeah... what gives anyway?
Why would she need that? There is no sorcerer that urgently needs slaying.
Did she just, like, want the second sword "just in case" she needs to slaughter some mages or something?
That's weird for someone whose whole shtick is counterattacks only, isn't it. Why the hell does she want that sword at all?
Cause one sword doesn't work at all and it's need it's pair?
Also remember that the old guy said that this trip will help Bern to grow up but also she would need to learn some new style cause her current one is childish, and let's face it if Bern wants to be May knight then she needs some counter weapon against mages.
Or the whole sword thing is just a big fat lie which that old guy fabricated just to push Bern into looking for her father and learning the truth.
In case you've forgotten, Bern very recently got OWNED because a couple of schmucks were using enchanted weapons on her and her friends, and their sorcerer companions could not cast spells or use enchanted items of their own because of Mr. Flower Power.
Besides, these swords are an important family heirloom and she KNOWS that the schmucks who the party JUST finished arresting worked for "the Thin Man," a rather nasty sorcerer who performs dangerous and illegal experiments on women (willingly or otherwise), which she just happens to be.
She NEEDS those swords badly. And doesn't look like May or Bern are going to stick around waiting for Mr. Drunk to wake up.
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In case you've forgotten, Bern very recently got OWNED because a couple of schmucks were using enchanted weapons on her and her friends, and their sorcerer companions could not cast spells or use enchanted items of their own because of Mr. Flower Power.
Besides, these swords are an important family heirloom and she KNOWS that the schmucks who the party JUST finished arresting worked for "the Thin Man," a rather nasty sorcerer who performs dangerous and illegal experiments on women (willingly or otherwise), which she just happens to be.
She NEEDS those swords badly. And doesn't look like May or Bern are going to stick around waiting for Mr. Drunk to wake up.
All that happened after she set out for her quest of the sword of greyskull because of it.
She didn't need enchanted swords at first at all. She didn't need enchanted swords for the entirety of book 0.
Just now the plot conveniently gravitated to a situation in which she just so happens to.
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Bernadette says herself that the trip was more about meeting her father than getting the sword.
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Blackbird: "I am your father." Dun-dun-DUNH!
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Well, Blackbird now knows who the "girlfriend" is. This could go bad very quickly.
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Well, Blackbird now knows who the "girlfriend" is. This could go bad very quickly.
Oh that was Blackbird...wow...for some reason I thought it was Melter. *Facedesk*
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Just DAAAWWWW seeing the scene...
So now Polly will enter the scene trying to help Bern?
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So she went back to "snoring drunk" ALONE.
Geesh, Bern. That is a dangerous level of stupid.
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I wonder if this is what Orransong meant in Ch.11, p.28 (http://flipside.keenspot.com/comic.php?i=418) about children's fighting style. That Grant hadn't grown up to what it takes to be a knight. That he thought being a knight meant just shiny armor and flashy swordfighting, and couldn't accept the reality.
I also happened to notice that May's drawing has become much better in last chapters, close face shots in particular - she looks actually pretty there. Probably due to detailed eyelashes.
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So Suspiria's acting a bit funny. It may be just that she doesn't want people worrying over her (simple solution) or it could be something more devious (complex solution).
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Oh yeah. Melter DID do something to her. He messed with her brain a bit, literally. Good job catching that scar, Crest. It certainly wasn't there when they first met Suspira, so it couldn't have been there "ever since she was a little girl."
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It makes you wonder what he did there, some kind of control device, bomb, a tracker, or a bug device to listen on their conversations?
At least we all know this won't end pretty.
And really, blushing Crest, he is a bit too girly, maybe he is the girliest character fromlast two pages, I hope he will man up a little and will stop doing that whenever May looks at him :P
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I have a feeling that "supposed romance going to shit" will be a very prevalent theme very soon.
Got 3 of those now, none look all too bright.
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It makes you wonder what he did there, some kind of control device, bomb, a tracker, or a bug device to listen on their conversations?
At least we all know this won't end pretty.
And really, blushing Crest, he is a bit too girly, maybe he is the girliest character fromlast two pages, I hope he will man up a little and will stop doing that whenever May looks at him :P
Probably all of the above.
As for Crest, he's young, innocent, and STILL not used to pretty girls actually being nice to him.
Guy like that gets looks from someone whose name equates with "SEXY" is going to blush.
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Replacement Kin incoming soon?
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Ah she sure would like herself a crest the way things are going. For dinner.
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It makes you wonder what he did there, some kind of control device, bomb, a tracker, or a bug device to listen on their conversations?
At least we all know this won't end pretty.
It's got to be a bit more than that, as Suspiria is lying about the scar. Maybe Crest will get to use that Genki Dama sooner than we imagined. Hopefully, Master White Bread has him prepared.
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First time poster, long time reader... decided to make an account because this is really interesting and for a change I want to contemplate on the situation in the open for a bit.
It doesn't feel like Suspiria is lying about her scar at the moment... and that worries me. If her only purpose were to downplay any significance she would just be dismissive about it (it's just a scar, probably just didn't notice when I got it). The last thing she would do is pretend right in front of Crest as if she always had it while last time we saw her she told him she never had a scar.
And she doesn't want to go to the bathhouse. I don't think it is out of shyness to be honest (I think her reaction would have been different then), nor out of time constraint or anything. She says she cannot bring Crest to a bathhouse, but when Maytag calls her out on that (I'm sure he wouldn't mind) she has no counter-argument, not even a little, and dismisses the topic entirely.
I think there are more scars...
Problem I am having right now is that my two theories don't go together. If some mental effect is downplaying the importance of the scars in her mind, possibly by altering her memories, then she would have no real reason for hiding another scar from Crest. Unless there are already so many that it is somewhat of a vanity thing that is.
One thing is for sure though... while there is something to be said about not wanting to worry others, I don't think it is natural for Suspiria to downplay this strange scar this much even in front of Crest and Maytag.
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They're bloody mary scars.
Surely, there are also mental effects in motion =P
That or she just represses the fact she has them.
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I think there are more scars...
Problem I am having right now is that my two theories don't go together. If some mental effect is downplaying the importance of the scars in her mind, possibly by altering her memories, then she would have no real reason for hiding another scar from Crest. Unless there are already so many that it is somewhat of a vanity thing that is.
She didn't seem to have any when she asked Crest to keep her company that night. It must be something else.
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And she doesn't want to go to the bathhouse. I don't think it is out of shyness to be honest (I think her reaction would have been different then), nor out of time constraint or anything. She says she cannot bring Crest to a bathhouse, but when Maytag calls her out on that (I'm sure he wouldn't mind) she has no counter-argument, not even a little, and dismisses the topic entirely.
I had gotten the impression her excuse there was that whilst Crest might not have any problem with the bathhouse with the three of them, she has a problem with Crest being there.
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And she doesn't want to go to the bathhouse. I don't think it is out of shyness to be honest (I think her reaction would have been different then), nor out of time constraint or anything. She says she cannot bring Crest to a bathhouse, but when Maytag calls her out on that (I'm sure he wouldn't mind) she has no counter-argument, not even a little, and dismisses the topic entirely.
I had gotten the impression her excuse there was that whilst Crest might not have any problem with the bathhouse with the three of them, she has a problem with Crest being there.
Well, her jealousy IS infamous. When Maytag was "modeling" for Kin, and Suspira asked about a threesome, Kin reminded her that she got so jealous that the other partner left screaming, shaved bald and magically painted blue.
It's not so much Crest being there, as Crest being present in front of other nude women that is causing Suspira problems.
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She didn't seem to have any when she asked Crest to keep her company that night. It must be something else.
She didn't have the scar on her forehead before either though, despite the fact that she insists otherwise now. We do not know when the scar actually appeared, but I am guessing it is rather recent and not an actual direct result of whatever was done with her. Keep in mind that overnight she also went from saying she never had a scar there to saying it has always been there.
I had gotten the impression her excuse there was that whilst Crest might not have any problem with the bathhouse with the three of them, she has a problem with Crest being there.
Well, her jealousy IS infamous. When Maytag was "modeling" for Kin, and Suspira asked about a threesome, Kin reminded her that she got so jealous that the other partner left screaming, shaved bald and magically painted blue.
It's not so much Crest being there, as Crest being present in front of other nude women that is causing Suspira problems.
While there is something to be said for her jealousy, there is also something to be said for her rashness. Keep in mind that she did come with the idea for the threesome herself and probably would have gone through with it if not for Maytag's rejection and/or Kin's intervention. She also didn't mind Kin drawing Maytag nude, this too was her own idea. Her jealousy seems not to be a thing that inhibits her outgoingness... rather it tends to lead to disastrous conflicts afterwards.
Though she has been undergoing some big changes lately. She has been rather timid after Kin's death, compared to her outgoing personality when we first met her. This is of course understandable.
Yet I have a feeling her rejection to go to the bathhouse is not unrelated to her condition.
For now though we're following Bern. Less mystery in this part of the story, but I wonder what this conversation will bring. It seems her father is not quite the lowlife he seemed to be at first now that he is sober. Maybe he made some bad judgements in the past. He could have returned to the knights with the news about the swords being reproducible and the associated cost. He may not have had the swords, but at least it's a result. And the knights would probably have been able to find investors or even invest in it themselves. But pride is a tricky vice and I do have to agree that it is not very hard to grow bitter with the knights...
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BRION Y U NO POST COMIC :'(
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Sorry, things were really busy after Anime Central. I'll post a make-up page tommorow, which will not count as the extra page.
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Looking at previous pages, just poor Bern...
Her philosophy, fighting style, idealistic father figure got literally destroyed completely in this chapter, plus now also the father looks to be dead sick...
And she needs to find that sword too and try to learn an adult fighting style.
She never gets a brake :P
I like the father backstory, not full jerk figure as he looked at start but rather just a broken realistic pessimist who just tried to deal with his current life in a way he can cope.
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I kinda felt this response coming from the moment Bern mentioned the Split Rose. Of course, this was hinted at earlier by another character, but that was not within earshot of Bern.
It makes one wonder though... if the style is so ineffective, then how was Bern able to dominate several rather powerful fighters with it? From what we have seen so far, the Split Rose is a very effective fighting style, so what her father is saying right now contradicts our story so far in a way.
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Maybe it happened like that cause everyone is using "adult" more agessive style of fightning totally forgetting about defensive basics which Bern simply mastered as Split Rose into her own style?
I kinda would want to see Bern fightining her father with her current style to see the result.
It's still a bit silly that Bern style is considered childish while all other knights couldn't deal with that guy in beginning chapters where Bern defeated him in instant.
Bern at most is using her opponents attacks in her own favour which is all what self-defense is about, her strenght is to provoke enemies into attacking her(like she did with Mary), while her style vs opponents who don't attack her in blind rage is much less effective where she has to impovise outside of her comfort zone.
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I kinda felt this response coming from the moment Bern mentioned the Split Rose. Of course, this was hinted at earlier by another character, but that was not within earshot of Bern.
It makes one wonder though... if the style is so ineffective, then how was Bern able to dominate several rather powerful fighters with it? From what we have seen so far, the Split Rose is a very effective fighting style, so what her father is saying right now contradicts our story so far in a way.
Her style didn't work very well when she was assaulted in that bar by the misogynistic knight.
It ALSO doesn't work very well when she's attacked by someone who isn't charging at her like a drunken rhino, overconfident to the extreme, or against someone who uses magic.
When going against a sorcerer, you need to take the initiative, or have your will up to date.
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Yay Captain Beefheart, I mean Beefsides! :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D :
We the fans demand more of Captain Beefsides, including drawings of Captain Beefsides standing astride piles of corpses with a nude and supple Maytag clutching his manly manly leg!
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Apparently no one in this world has developed an equivalent of Akido.
The aggressor does not, in fact, always have the advantage.
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Aikido is a martial art, though. That's a little different.
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It's kinda depressing that Bern's dad has the same sort of outlook on life that I do. u__u
As a side note, I love their conversation about the Split Rose so far. Bern's reactions are making it, haha.
Also... I know he's a parody character, but...
Beefitz Dezorga is hot. I want a comic about him.
*huff huff*
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Split Rose is a martial art as well. Martial means military, any type of military technique quantified into a form (such as a sword technique) is by definition a martial art. Unarmed and armed are different in execution and in terms of reach and what kind of damage can be done. The underlying principles of combat do not change.
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Sir drunk knight: Hold on let me just get all your hopes and dreams. Ah there we go *tramples them* Hmmm let's see *pours gasoline and burns whatever's left*
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I wonder how much Bern's father's behavior is due to the alcohol, and how much is due to true disillusionment. I'm looking forward to learn more of his backstory now, and am bummed that Bern has to see her father like this after being away from him so long. I'm also looking forward to finally knowing what's going on with Suspiria, since she's still acting strange (especially about the scar on her forehead). Overall, the story has been excellent recently. Great job, Brion!
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Depending on how long he was out. He could just be hungover...really badly hung over...which wouldn't really help his attitude anyways...if anything it makes him crankier while the headache keeps him from thinking clearly.
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I have to agree with kahoshi. Martial arts is martial arts, whether it is hand to hand or with a weapon. I know you are basing part of this arc around Bernadette's fighting style, but her father's words in the first panel of chapter 30, page 30 are just wrong. Several prominent fighting styles have developed with a primary defensive stance(not footwork stance but mindset). Also, in sword combat often the attacker is placing themselves in a vulnerable position to make an attack and the defender can have a distinct advantage on the counter-attack.
Regardless of all that. I have been reading the comic for several years now and actually have a couple of the books in print. So please keep up the good work and I'll be waiting to see where this arc leads.
ps. the above is not opinion but fact based on years of martial arts and historic sword work
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Well, there's also the possibility that Grant was just wrong. Afterall he's just stating his opinion.
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Well, there's also the possibility that Grant was just wrong. Afterall he's just stating his opinion.
I never said there wasn't ;)
In fact that's more what I assumed, and fully expected Bern to prove him wrong by kicking ass. I miss her handing out good ass kickings.
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I think the greater significance of Grant's statement is that Bern thought he was seriously teaching/training her and has built much of her life, views and dreams around Grant's lessons. But Grant has just informed her that it was only a game as far as he was concerned and he did not intend for her to take the lessons seriously into adult-hood. Quite possibly, he even held the same views against female knights at the time but Bern believed he seriously gave her the hope and goal to overcome that and one-day join the knights.
I always thought that Grant was supposed to have the same streak of white hair which is why Orransong spoke of the resemblance between the two here: http://flipside.keenspot.com/comic.php?i=394
AHHH! Now I recall, it was a response from Brion to a question I made about it. guess he's changed his mind since *shrug*. There still seems to be a certain level of resemblance in build and hair structure.
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And Maytag once again proves that she is capable of sage wisdom. In this case, she can speak about it with first hand knowledge. :D
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I think the greater significance of Grant's statement is that Bern thought he was seriously teaching/training her and has built much of her life, views and dreams around Grant's lessons. But Grant has just informed her that it was only a game as far as he was concerned and he did not intend for her to take the lessons seriously into adult-hood. Quite possibly, he even held the same views against female knights at the time but Bern believed he seriously gave her the hope and goal to overcome that and one-day join the knights.
I always thought that Grant was supposed to have the same streak of white hair which is why Orransong spoke of the resemblance between the two here: http://flipside.keenspot.com/comic.php?i=394
AHHH! Now I recall, it was a response from Brion to a question I made about it. guess he's changed his mind since *shrug*. There still seems to be a certain level of resemblance in build and hair structure.
I'm not sure it was neccesaraly a game to him, its just that he only taught the split-rose technique as Bern was only a child at the time.
It might well be that Grant did intend to teach Bern some adult fighting styles as she got older, but then the brothel burnt down and he believed she died in the fire.
Ofc that does not mean that he intended for Bern to join the knights when she was older, it is possible that Grant shared the belief that only men could join the knights, and was slimply teaching Bern some swordfighting skills so she would be able to defend herself if needed.
RE: Bern's white patch of hair.
Since there has been no mention of her mother having a smilar patch of white, and Grant has no white patch, it's possible that Bern didn't have it growing up and it turned white as a result of the shock of the brothel burning down and killing nearly everyone she knew (i'm sure there was a page which showed Grant training Bern as a child, but i cannot remember if she was shown having a whitespot at the time ). That might explain why Grant didn't recognise her when he opened the door.
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He describes the Split Rose a page or two later as a simple way to teach kids some simple defensive techniques and discourage aggressive behaviour. Its considered by him to be more of an educational lesson for children than something to really prep them for knight training or any serious fighting in the adult world. He describes it as useless.
Obviously, refined to the extreme, its not useless as Bern demonstrates. But really its the intention behind his actions back then. Bern's just finished telling him that he's inspired her and helped her form much of her outlook on life while teaching her the all important split-rose which turned out to not be all so important as far as Grant was concerned.
He's told her he failed in everything at life, she's tried to tell him he succeeded in her, he's informed her that he never really tried. Strong speculation with this next point but I think she's believed all her life that her father passed on the elements of a grand style passed down the LaShoar family. Something she holds sacred and dear to her and counts herself significant in his eyes for having being taught it. Like a sacred family sword being passed down, she thought he'd passed on a significant legacy in teaching the technique but now there's nothing sacred or significant about it.
I only had the information on Grant having a white patch from an old "ask Maytag" or "ask Brion" post when I either queried what Orransong meant by that or what their similarities are. Its easily likely that Brion has long since changed his mind and either she inherited it from her mother, its a sort of scar of some kind of birth defect/mark (birthmarks are actually the most common cause from my understanding).
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Re: Bernadette's hair stripe, I was playing around with the idea of Grant having one, but to be honest I just decided it would look silly with his design, so I decided against it.