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Comics Discussion => Flipside Discussion => Topic started by: Brion Foulke on March 01, 2015, 12:47:56 pm

Title: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Brion Foulke on March 01, 2015, 12:47:56 pm
This is the thread for discussing chapter 43: The Indomitable Blades Part 2.  Because everyone voted on it!
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: sunphoenix on March 03, 2015, 04:36:37 am
OH YEah!!!!  SEXY REDHEAD'S GONNA KICK SOME ASS! :)
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: sunphoenix on March 04, 2015, 09:01:40 pm
WTF?  He swung a I-Beam at her?!?!  lol!  That's not a weapon... it a piece of Real Estate!!!
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Pinkk on March 05, 2015, 10:46:13 pm
First thought: That's no sword.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Azure Priest on March 06, 2015, 05:04:48 am
WTF?  He swung a I-Beam at her?!?!  lol!  That's not a weapon... it a piece of Real Estate!!!

QFT! When they said he was holding back, they weren't kidding. He's swinging that I-beam like a baseball bat! Bernadette's dodging isn't bad either. She's so fast, she's leaving after-images!
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Knite0 on March 06, 2015, 07:07:54 am
For some reason I keep thinking that  to motivate her Polly's gonna threaten to kill herself if Bern dies.  Not sure why.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: a_sticky_situation on March 06, 2015, 08:37:10 am
For some reason I keep thinking that  to motivate her Polly's gonna threaten to kill herself if Bern dies.  Not sure why.
That is horribly depressing, holy Christ.
This comic is sad enough already.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: 9_6 on March 07, 2015, 02:25:11 pm
You need to draw more action scenes so you get better at drawing action scenes.
Flipside has an explosion-shaped hole to fill.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: SAGG on March 09, 2015, 04:27:13 am
Okay, Brion, you're really building up the pessimistic tension here, and have gotten our attention.  ;D What are you aiming to do...?  ???
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: mittfh on March 09, 2015, 05:35:55 am
Given there are two other opponents in the arena, Bern's best bet would probably be to somehow goad them into attacking each other, so whoever's left after the infighting would be severely weakened both physically and mentally, thus evening out the odds somewhat.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Azure Priest on March 09, 2015, 05:55:50 am
Bern, this is a really good time to use another fighting style. Too bad you don't have one.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: sunphoenix on March 09, 2015, 08:00:31 am
Actually the way I see it... the problem with 'reach' weapons is.. well their reach!  What Bern needs to do is not stay out of reach... but get VERY close under his reach.  His grip is like 4 feet long ...step in get him to commit with a swing, feint and move up into his face!  Her swords may still block... but it like a lever.. a fulcrum.  The mass of that huge club its all the way out on the other end!  Up close where he is pivoting the weapon to swing it.. the mass is a lot less and as such not all that weight is falling upon her blades should she need to parry.  I say parry not block as she needs only to deflect his blows not really stop them.  A miss, is a miss!

The nasty thing is being that close.. he would have to decide... either move back to swing with some force or try to strike her with the haft of the weapon.. which works in her favor cause all the mass of his huge weapon~ I don't care how fast he moves; is on the other end of the fulcrum!  Bern is not going to have to block THAT mass and it will work against him!  Up that close.. sword-draw cuts can be particularly gruesome and damaging.

Of course this will mean Bern will have to slightly, 'step' out, of Split-Rose~ sort of, to be more aggressive...
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on March 11, 2015, 09:06:51 pm
She needs to do a Kenshin Himura and jump atop the blade.  ;D

Sunphoenix is right, also, the problem with a heavy weapon like that is that every swing fully commits you to following through so if he swings right, it moves all the way right. Bern doesn't really need to commit, she can bob and weave, feeling him out until she has a good sense of him.

Just hope he doesn't drive her into a corner.

She doesn't necessarily have to be aggressive, so much as face him in a way that isn't head on. Sidestep, and strike so force doesn't matter.

(From Chapter 42)


Going back to my point: How this will be achieved? What must Bern do to reach your point without the martial prowess? These people want blood. They're animals, basically, though the warden is at the least giving Bern a tiny chance. Bern has to win, or at least fight like mad to gain their so-called "respect"...

(Backtracking a bit from the fight proper, but as there's only so much you can say about a giant beam of metal) While we're talking about proving herself... why does she need to prove anything to these jerks? She doesn't know them, she doesn't identify with them (dyed-in-the-wool pacifist, and the "fans" are all bloodcrazed), and couldn't care less if they are impressed with her, she just wants to get out of here alive.

She went out with the intention of saving a loved one. Got no help (on the contrary everywhere she went, people demanded money and resources she didn't have) until finally frustrated she's like "look, do it or else", so she got jailed.

Someone criticized her for letting Polly take 10x. Ummm, yea, not much she could do to stop her. She was emotionally pushed into a wall. She had three or four monstrous choices, and by the time she got around to choosing, her friend takes that away from her. And if she tried to take responsibility, her friend basically told her "nuh huh, whatever you do, I'll outbid you, so you're just hurting me." So yea, she's in a situation, where she can't seem to push out, and now she's in a battle where she doesn't see an opening.  That she's even in this battle and doesn't say "forget it, keep me in here forever, I'm not fighting" takes some nerve. But unless she can find some gap in her enemies or in this situation, she's pretty screwed. It was good that she managed to get those swords, even if it wasn't her doing.

Basically, she needs breathing room what she can just look at the issue of how to counter this fighter, and bounce back from all of this.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Silverdrake on March 11, 2015, 10:37:29 pm
Ok, this is going in a direction I feared.

Polly took away all options Bernadette had to get a grimmer look on fate, one she needs in really close, serious situations. Something that makes Bernadette notice she cannot fix eveything with being nice, something that makes her see that as a fighter, the world can be really brutal. Something that hurts her, but does not maims and kills her. Polly took that away. This was discussed.

Right now there is only one thing left Polly can do so Bernadette learns what the Warden offered her. She can die.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Azure Priest on March 12, 2015, 05:59:04 am
And the warden has (perhaps wisely) chained up Polly so she doesn't interfere.

So it looks like Bern doesn't even get to have these guys trip each other up as she's forced to fight them one at a time.

Oh boy, she's in serious trouble. This is even worse than her fight in the castle, because her opponent's advantage there was a magic stick. This guy is that strong, if not stronger, and there's no magic for her to break.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: sunphoenix on March 12, 2015, 06:36:55 am
LOLS! You think he is solely swinging that I-Beam Without magic? :)
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Silverdrake on March 13, 2015, 11:30:24 am
Warden is going to kick Polly in at the right moment.

Warden knows Bernadette is very srong but thinks she can get out without taking risks - in body as well as in morals. This is what this is about: Bernadette has to learn she will not make it out whole, body as well as her conscience are going to be tarnished, a warrior cannot be "nice". Polly took away that lesson from Bernadette and now her death (clubbed to death) will need to teach Bernadette the lesson she needs to survive this.

Go forward. Risk. Risk your body. Riks your conscience. You will not make it intact. If you want to fight - you will get your hands and soul bloody. You cannot stand there, be nice, be passive, pretend you are better. Maybe you are better - but this is not a normal job. This job costs at the high end. So far Bernadette did not face this, her whole fighting style reflects this lack of facting the nasty truth that the life of a fighter is not one of happiniess and innocence.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Chnmmr on March 13, 2015, 03:11:12 pm
You might have something there, maybe the Warden has an inkling as to what the swords can do and wants to force Bern into a position where she -must- block or Polly gets squished?  Would also be a situation where Bern could discover what the swords do together as a pair.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: mittfh on March 13, 2015, 04:17:12 pm
Just thought: getting up close and personal to him not only would render him unable to use his huge swords but severely limit the ability of her to use her swords, thus reducing them to fisticuffs - where he'd probably have an advantage. However, if she kept her swords and angled down, if she got close enough she could potentially give him an orchidectomy and/or a penectomy...

...that is, assuming him holding his weapon above his head isn't a trigger for some other type of attack...
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Silverdrake on March 14, 2015, 12:56:24 am
You might have something there, maybe the Warden has an inkling as to what the swords can do and wants to force Bern into a position where she -must- block or Polly gets squished?  Would also be a situation where Bern could discover what the swords do together as a pair.

My theory is that the Warden recognised Bernadettes ability, but also her weakness: Innocence.

Bernadette lives the live of a fighter, but has found a way to maintain her innocence in it. She has a code that goes way beyond a usual Knight's Code of Honor, she is basically a pacifist with swords.
Her entire fighting technique reflects that. Be passive. Be evasive. Do not risk. Do not become guilty.

But if you are against a foe you cannot win othervise, you must risk. You must seize a moment. In the right moment, in that split second, you do not need to be innocent, passive, concerned, you must act, dash forward, take the price. Shut out the thoughts and the concerns, shut out passivity. It is impossible for Bernadette to do that, she rests in herself - this is good, but not for a fighter.

But as I said it goes beyond this: with her style Bernadette also does not risk to become "guilty" in any way. She does not risk having to kill a feo. She fights, but the killing? That do others, people who fight with her and are more rash. She does not risk doing something morally questionable, does the other person deserve death, no matter this fight? Maybe, maybe not. Bernadette has no problem, she stays back.
To use something visual: In her profession she might get literally her hands bloody but her whole fighting style is there to minimise the chance to metaphorically get her hands bloody (funny inversion of how it usually goes).

If Bernadette wants to unlock her maximum potential - and thus her ability to survive as much as she can; something she needs here in this arena - she somehow has to lose a part of that innocence. She has to understand she won't make it with her full conscience intact, that while she is a good person, she has to do bad things if her profession is a fighter and if she wants to survive.

Warden offers her that before she puts her in a fight where she a) needs to use it for b) the price to have a perspective to get out of the arena.
Polly takes away all offers from Warden. The offers all have one thing in common (as was pointed out already): they make Bernadette suffer through unfair hardship without killing her. In short: They take a part of innocence and leave a black mark where it was, so Bernadette must come to peace with that black mark. This can then fuel the power she needs for her chosen profession.
Polly gets Bernadette into the arena without all that.

What is left here where Bernadette can "suffer, but not death. Lose something that leaves a black mark on her soul". There is only one thing left. Polly.

I think this is at least what Warden thinks and I find it possible that when Warden starts talking next she will make Polly understand, which leads to Polly "doing all she has to do protect Bernadette". She'll dash in a sacrifice herself. Being killed in those cirumstances? Yes, totally is on par with the options that were offered to Bernadette.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: 9_6 on March 14, 2015, 03:29:44 am
Did we establish that bern "can't be beat" in a duel outside of book 0 where she was kind of a mary sue?
All I remember is her constantly getting her teeth kicked in by slashy mc crazypants, bloody mary, pokey stick man and the warden.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on March 14, 2015, 05:09:31 am
You might have something there, maybe the Warden has an inkling as to what the swords can do and wants to force Bern into a position where she -must- block or Polly gets squished?  Would also be a situation where Bern could discover what the swords do together as a pair.

My theory is that the Warden recognised Bernadettes ability, but also her weakness: Innocence.

Bernadette lives the live of a fighter, but has found a way to maintain her innocence in it. She has a code that goes way beyond a usual Knight's Code of Honor, she is basically a pacifist with swords.
Her entire fighting technique reflects that. Be passive. Be evasive. Do not risk. Do not become guilty.

But if you are against a foe you cannot win othervise, you must risk. You must seize a moment. In the right moment, in that split second, you do not need to be innocent, passive, concerned, you must act, dash forward, take the price. Shut out the thoughts and the concerns, shut out passivity. It is impossible for Bernadette to do that, she rests in herself - this is good, but not for a fighter.

But as I said it goes beyond this: with her style Bernadette also does not risk to become "guilty" in any way. She does not risk having to kill a feo. She fights, but the killing? That do others, people who fight with her and are more rash. She does not risk doing something morally questionable, does the other person deserve death, no matter this fight? Maybe, maybe not. Bernadette has no problem, she stays back.
To use something visual: In her profession she might get literally her hands bloody but her whole fighting style is there to minimise the chance to metaphorically get her hands bloody (funny inversion of how it usually goes).

If Bernadette wants to unlock her maximum potential - and thus her ability to survive as much as she can; something she needs here in this arena - she somehow has to lose a part of that innocence. She has to understand she won't make it with her full conscience intact, that while she is a good person, she has to do bad things if her profession is a fighter and if she wants to survive.

Warden offers her that before she puts her in a fight where she a) needs to use it for b) the price to have a perspective to get out of the arena.
Polly takes away all offers from Warden. The offers all have one thing in common (as was pointed out already): they make Bernadette suffer through unfair hardship without killing her. In short: They take a part of innocence and leave a black mark where it was, so Bernadette must come to peace with that black mark. This can then fuel the power she needs for her chosen profession.
Polly gets Bernadette into the arena without all that.

What is left here where Bernadette can "suffer, but not death. Lose something that leaves a black mark on her soul". There is only one thing left. Polly.

I think this is at least what Warden thinks and I find it possible that when Warden starts talking next she will make Polly understand, which leads to Polly "doing all she has to do protect Bernadette". She'll dash in a sacrifice herself. Being killed in those cirumstances? Yes, totally is on par with the options that were offered to Bernadette.

I can't read all of this because I'm on a touchphone and the superbig keyboard and supersmall lettering is eating the page.

You guys all agree that innocence is a weakness. Okay, story time.

This reminds me of something my dad told me about his father in law. Much like the song Rude, he wanted the daddy's blessings. Her dad however dismissed him as someone who was a "dreamer" who didn't know about how life could be cruel (my mom basically worked herself through college, probably because he was a jerk and wouldn't pay). Trust me, he knew, he even told me as much.  I know. All of us know. But... unlike this (ahem, a-hole) he seemed to know that life could be better. He wanted to be a priest because he wanted to work for a better world. A world where people Didn't Have to bloody their hands on a regular basis.

Bern didn't just choose  this path because it was easy. In fact, she was willing to break even her vow of fidelity (yes, reread the comic, bern and may swore they wouldn't cheat on each other, meaning the one option that she could pick was B, not A). She willingly gave up her dream as a knight btw, so the whole safety and innocence bit is not really valid (I dunno if you mentioned safety, but you seem to be under the impression that her life until now has been soft choices). Bern would want a world where Polly doesn't have to go through what she's about to. But she does. The one thing she can do for Polly is keep her request to not sink to the level of these people. She doesn't need a lesson in brutality, in fact she'd rather die a hundred times over than become the sort of crazed person the crowd and her target seems to be. If you think she's weak for that, well... can't say much to you.

Bern has not given up, she is still fighting, as a knight, not a common fighter. She's studying her opponents, and if she can win, she will. That said, this big overhead swing looks a bit ominous.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Azure Priest on March 14, 2015, 05:21:44 am
And the narration confirms it. Going in during an opening NORMALLY is the right course of action, but this lug was luring Bern into close combat. Hanging back and waiting for him to get tired swinging that I-beam would be ideal, however....

HE'S GOING TO THROW THAT THING!

Or worse, he calls in his two buddies, and they don't give Bern room to maneuver.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Silverdrake on March 14, 2015, 02:55:35 pm
You might have something there, maybe the Warden has an inkling as to what the swords can do and wants to force Bern into a position where she -must- block or Polly gets squished?  Would also be a situation where Bern could discover what the swords do together as a pair.

My theory is that the Warden recognised Bernadettes ability, but also her weakness: Innocence.

Bernadette lives the live of a fighter, but has found a way to maintain her innocence in it. She has a code that goes way beyond a usual Knight's Code of Honor, she is basically a pacifist with swords.
Her entire fighting technique reflects that. Be passive. Be evasive. Do not risk. Do not become guilty.

But if you are against a foe you cannot win othervise, you must risk. You must seize a moment. In the right moment, in that split second, you do not need to be innocent, passive, concerned, you must act, dash forward, take the price. Shut out the thoughts and the concerns, shut out passivity. It is impossible for Bernadette to do that, she rests in herself - this is good, but not for a fighter.

But as I said it goes beyond this: with her style Bernadette also does not risk to become "guilty" in any way. She does not risk having to kill a feo. She fights, but the killing? That do others, people who fight with her and are more rash. She does not risk doing something morally questionable, does the other person deserve death, no matter this fight? Maybe, maybe not. Bernadette has no problem, she stays back.
To use something visual: In her profession she might get literally her hands bloody but her whole fighting style is there to minimise the chance to metaphorically get her hands bloody (funny inversion of how it usually goes).

If Bernadette wants to unlock her maximum potential - and thus her ability to survive as much as she can; something she needs here in this arena - she somehow has to lose a part of that innocence. She has to understand she won't make it with her full conscience intact, that while she is a good person, she has to do bad things if her profession is a fighter and if she wants to survive.

Warden offers her that before she puts her in a fight where she a) needs to use it for b) the price to have a perspective to get out of the arena.
Polly takes away all offers from Warden. The offers all have one thing in common (as was pointed out already): they make Bernadette suffer through unfair hardship without killing her. In short: They take a part of innocence and leave a black mark where it was, so Bernadette must come to peace with that black mark. This can then fuel the power she needs for her chosen profession.
Polly gets Bernadette into the arena without all that.

What is left here where Bernadette can "suffer, but not death. Lose something that leaves a black mark on her soul". There is only one thing left. Polly.

I think this is at least what Warden thinks and I find it possible that when Warden starts talking next she will make Polly understand, which leads to Polly "doing all she has to do protect Bernadette". She'll dash in a sacrifice herself. Being killed in those cirumstances? Yes, totally is on par with the options that were offered to Bernadette.

I can't read all of this because I'm on a touchphone and the superbig keyboard and supersmall lettering is eating the page.

You guys all agree that innocence is a weakness. Okay, story time.

This reminds me of something my dad told me about his father in law. Much like the song Rude, he wanted the daddy's blessings. Her dad however dismissed him as someone who was a "dreamer" who didn't know about how life could be cruel (my mom basically worked herself through college, probably because he was a jerk and wouldn't pay). Trust me, he knew, he even told me as much.  I know. All of us know. But... unlike this (ahem, a-hole) he seemed to know that life could be better. He wanted to be a priest because he wanted to work for a better world. A world where people Didn't Have to bloody their hands on a regular basis.

Bern didn't just choose  this path because it was easy. In fact, she was willing to break even her vow of fidelity (yes, reread the comic, bern and may swore they wouldn't cheat on each other, meaning the one option that she could pick was B, not A). She willingly gave up her dream as a knight btw, so the whole safety and innocence bit is not really valid (I dunno if you mentioned safety, but you seem to be under the impression that her life until now has been soft choices). Bern would want a world where Polly doesn't have to go through what she's about to. But she does. The one thing she can do for Polly is keep her request to not sink to the level of these people. She doesn't need a lesson in brutality, in fact she'd rather die a hundred times over than become the sort of crazed person the crowd and her target seems to be. If you think she's weak for that, well... can't say much to you.

Bern has not given up, she is still fighting, as a knight, not a common fighter. She's studying her opponents, and if she can win, she will. That said, this big overhead swing looks a bit ominous.

You are wrong if you think that we consider "innocence" to be a "weakness". You are dead wrong. It is not.

But if you want to be a warrior - it is. To pick up your example: Bernadette did not become a priest. She become a warrior. She did not become a farmer, living a normal life. She became a warrior.

She chose a bloody profession but is not able to admit that. It is not about innocence in general, it is about her not getting what life she chose and what that might take from her. She beliefs she can "get through" and she is right - unless she ends up in a really, really bad situation. An exceptional one with no way out but to fight with her whole being, at all costs. Such a situation is just where she ended up and she better starts to realise that that if she wanted to maintain her innocence and not be forced to do "bad things" she has picked the wrong life.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: 9_6 on March 14, 2015, 10:41:24 pm
On another note, what on earth does, say, a baker get for minor transgressions?
Cause if you can't fight, there only seems to be death by torture for which the bar is set as low as threatening someone.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on March 15, 2015, 09:12:00 pm
Oh my.  :o Thanks for pointing that out (well, there's also imprisonment).
And remember, Polly decided that only violent insane people would choose torture.

She's not a warrior though. She's a would-be knight.

The D&D equivalent of what this group is, would be closer in terms of code of conduct to paladins (you saw how her superiors basically flipped out about her being lesbian). Rigorous moral standard, and so on, and so on. Let's say she did get it together, and plowed through doing whatever would let her win at all costs. What would someone with her temperament do? Commit suicide. Immediately. Forget being a lesbian, doing something that would disgrace who she was, yeah pretty much be unable to handle the day to day if she did keep alive. You think she's bad right now? Let's say she ummm went crazy berserk and tore them apart? Would she trust herself to get near another soul again? Nah, more likely she'd just stick herself in a corner and talk to herself or something, being frightened literally of her shadow.

(This movie preview (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=seMwpP0yeu4) from about 1:10 onward)

At the end of the day, Bern needs to be able to live with herself.

She needs to fight, yes. But she needs to fight cleaner and better than her opponents, to fight as she is. Basically, make them look like complete chumps without killing them. Which, as hard as this situation is, is even harder. That doesn't mean she can't do some "disarming" though.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Azure Priest on March 16, 2015, 06:11:29 am
On another note, what on earth does, say, a baker get for minor transgressions?
Cause if you can't fight, there only seems to be death by torture for which the bar is set as low as threatening someone.

There are, in fact, three options for your penance.

1.) Gladiatorial combat, as seen here. IDEALLY, it's the quickest way to pay off big "marks." Although there are hidden rules that may make it longer, and more dangerous than the others.

2.) Flogging. One mark removed per mark of the lash. Normally reserved for those who are both exceptionally stupid and exceptionally violent to remove them from the gene pool, and eliminate their menace to society.

3.) Dungeon. You get thrown into a cell and get one mark removed per week's stay. Usually the best option for non-combatants, or those with low marks. You'd think this would be the longest, and most dreadful, but if you're in Bern's situation, where you've not only got a high number of marks, but have pissed off the entire arena, audience, gladiators, warden, and manager, have a low rank, and have gotten to the point that even penalties assigned to prevent you from being killed are removed, the dungeon starts looking pretty good. Especially if you're denied fights which is what allows you to remove marks in the gladiatorial combat option.

Edit for new update: Holy crap, as if swinging an I-beam around like a swashbuckler wasn't enough, it's an ENCHANTED I-beam too?! Sheesh! There's overbearing, and then there's freaking ridiculous. This is entering Freaking Ridiculous territory, and even if Bern somehow beats this guy, she's STILL got to face two others that are likely just as hard if not worse, AND in completely different ways.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: sunphoenix on March 18, 2015, 06:15:38 pm
Did somewhere it get mentioned that Bern's swords together are anti-magical?

If so.. what do you think will happen to his arms if she we to parry  'not block' on of those swings in mid-swing to suddenly make his I-Beam.. non-magical?  The weapon is still the mass it is.. and when it suddenly an effectively inertialess weapon... has its full inertia restored in an instant...

Normally big-guy does not have the strength...hell no mortal has the strength to swing the I-Beam that fast; but picture pushing a car into a person with your own strength... cars are heavy so it only likely going to bump them.. because you can't get the mass of it moving or swinging in the 'big-guys' case so fast with your own muscles.  But what if you could get it moving say 60mph on your own cause its inertia was negated.. yeah it would hit with devastating impact!

My point is what would happen to your arms if suddenly You swinging a 5 ton vehicle at 60 mph ... an impossible feat of strength as the vehicle's mass is weightless for you..but suddenly that was negated in mid-push/swing?  All that inertia would Energy = Mass x C{Squared}... on your arms...

You arms would either be pulverized to a thin paste or ripped from your body by the inertia of the swing/push.  Like grabbing a firm grip on a car traveling 60mph with your hands while you yourself are stationary.. ouch.. lost fingers at the very minimum!

It will be interesting to see if the anti-magical bane weapons what effects they will have on all these uber-enchanted warriors?
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Brion Foulke on March 18, 2015, 08:46:53 pm
On another note, what on earth does, say, a baker get for minor transgressions?
Cause if you can't fight, there only seems to be death by torture for which the bar is set as low as threatening someone.

Keep in mind that Marvallo only has one law: no force.  This usually translates to no violence.  For minor transgressions, like say getting into a bar fight or something, you might get a small amount of marks.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: UmberIsSexy on March 18, 2015, 09:42:02 pm
You arms would either be pulverized to a thin paste or ripped from your body by the inertia of the swing/push.  Like grabbing a firm grip on a car traveling 60mph with your hands while you yourself are stationary.. ouch.. lost fingers at the very minimum!

Yeah it seems like you found the way to beat him! but I think if it suddenly became weightless it would just fly out of his hands, ie. his grip would give way before his flesh tore or anything...unless it's strapped to him somehow.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on March 18, 2015, 09:54:56 pm
But many things are force in a way that isn't readily apparent.

Violence is force because it forces people to die, or it forces (through threat) people to do as you want. A bar room brawl isn't inherently about force unless it can be proved something coercive about it was intended (i.e. "you take that back", "make me", brawl starts). Rape would technically also qualify (forcing sex).

Stealing might be fine (as long as it is slight of hand, and not armed robbery), because while someone is technically giving you something without their knowledge but you are not consciously attempting to force them to do anything. Taking a loaf of bread, a baker might need to count it as a loss because forcing them to pay would be a crime.  :'(

The statement about the force is interesting. Bern can't dodge anymore if this is true, and she hasn't nerve to fight right now, but maybe another tactic. If she could find the nerve even to block, these swords (if they're all they are cracked up to be) might cancel midswing, doing an Izuru Kira (Bleach) imitation.  That said, we have no idea how these things work. But if she does manage it, it might be interesting to see how things play out in all its gory detail.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Azure Priest on March 19, 2015, 05:09:51 am
His I-beam is fashioned out of Element Zero from Mass Effect! It can alter its mass at will. Lighter so it swings faster, heavier mass on impact. OUCH! Sir Isaac Newton is the meanest son-of-a-bitch in the universe!

To put it another way...

K=1/2*mv^2. So he wants to double his speed, he needs to reduce the I-beam's mass by a factor of four.

Yeah, if he loses his grip while he's doing swings at incredible speeds, the mass will suddenly increase by the square of the velocity multiplier. He's not just swinging an I-beam anymore. He's got a freaking mass driver!
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Shazam on March 20, 2015, 10:46:31 am
A very small nitpick,  since this world is one of magic as science.  He'd change the mass of his weapon,  not the weight.  Even in zero g a more massive weapon has greater momentum. Ie,  it would be rather hard to stop once you get it swinging at high velocity and would pull him from his feet as its mass is so much higher than his,  coupled with its velocity. Similarly,  accelerating to such speed is based on mass,  not weight.

So reduction of mass,  not weight :)
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: sunphoenix on March 20, 2015, 02:04:20 pm
Not a criticism Shazam.. but don't you mean it the other way around?  Weight is based upon the gravitic pull of the largest body acting on it.  But the Mass never changes... that's a constant; and my point.  "Magic" might be able to make the weapon feel weightless.. but it still retains its mass.. hence why getting hit with it would be fatally painful... for the few second one was still alive after such a devastating impact.

The magic does not really make the weapon inertialess... or it would have absolutely NO impact no matter how fast you swung it on contact.. its 'inertia-less'.  So the magic is twisting gravity fields in some way to make it 'seem' weightless but retain its mass. 

My point is if Bern's swords negate that magic~ when he swinging the I-Beam... at that speed the inertia of the mass of the I-Beam is WAAY HIGH.. and his tightly gripping hand will feel all that tidal effect of the inertia he has imparted to it with his swing!  Momentum is a bitch.. it will likely rip his fingers off if not pulverize every bone in his hands, as the grip violently flies out of his hands from the momentum of the swing... flesh & bone have their shear force limits... like everything else made of matter.

I pick up a bullet and throw it at you and it bounces off your shirt... no biggie, it's not very heavy at all.  Now I do it again.. but this time I add several thousands of meters of velocity on it and it blows a hole through your chest and the brick wall behind you!  It didn't get heavier.. but its inertia made the impact Much more devastating.  Now do that same with the I-Beam.  Its already damned heavy... so getting hit with it will... hurt {to say the least}.  But, try holding onto it with it moving several hundred feet per second while your standing still...  Good-bye hand!  'nuff said.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on March 20, 2015, 03:39:04 pm
Welp, her legs are pinned. She's dead now.  ;D

Okay, I'm trolling a bit. She's got a few things left to try. Tricky old man, though.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: SAGG on March 21, 2015, 12:39:35 am
Welp, her legs are pinned. She's dead now.  ;D

Okay, I'm trolling a bit. She's got a few things left to try. Tricky old man, though.
Hit the guy's hand and arm with her sword, if she has the time...
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Azure Priest on March 21, 2015, 05:53:16 am
Oh, now it's a sand mage. As if the disadvantage wasn't ridiculously overwhelming enough already! How anyone can consider this "fight" entertaining is beyond me.

An entertaining fight requires the opponent to actually stand a chance.

This is no better than standing back and watching a bunch of schoolyard bullies beat up on the new kid. Anyone who cheers at this needs mental therapy with a two by four to the head.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: sunphoenix on March 22, 2015, 04:47:40 am
Anyone who cheers at this needs mental therapy with a two by four to the head.

Got a chuckle out of this.. thanks! :)
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Enkida on March 22, 2015, 05:26:50 am

My point is if Bern's swords negate that magic~ when he swinging the I-Beam... at that speed the inertia of the mass of the I-Beam is WAAY HIGH.. and his tightly gripping hand will feel all that tidal effect of the inertia he has imparted to it with his swing!  Momentum is a bitch.. it will likely rip his fingers off if not pulverize every bone in his hands, as the grip violently flies out of his hands from the momentum of the swing... flesh & bone have their shear force limits... like everything else made of matter.


I am actually hoping to see this happen now.   >:D
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Brion Foulke on March 22, 2015, 09:28:20 pm
Stealing might be fine (as long as it is slight of hand, and not armed robbery), because while someone is technically giving you something without their knowledge but you are not consciously attempting to force them to do anything. Taking a loaf of bread, a baker might need to count it as a loss because forcing them to pay would be a crime.  :'(

Stealing is still a type of force, because you're taking something from someone against their will.



Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Azure Priest on March 24, 2015, 05:54:01 am
"violence" includes all forms of theft, pickpocketing, shoplifting, etc.

It does not include certain forms of fraud, as you voluntarily parted with your money or possession, even under a false pretense.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Shazam on March 24, 2015, 10:59:03 am
Not a criticism Shazam.. but don't you mean it the other way around?  Weight is based upon the gravitic pull of the largest body acting on it.  But the Mass never changes... that's a constant; and my point.  "Magic" might be able to make the weapon feel weightless.. but it still retains its mass.. hence why getting hit with it would be fatally painful... for the few second one was still alive after such a devastating impact.

The magic does not really make the weapon inertialess... or it would have absolutely NO impact no matter how fast you swung it on contact.. its 'inertia-less'.  So the magic is twisting gravity fields in some way to make it 'seem' weightless but retain its mass. 

My point is if Bern's swords negate that magic~ when he swinging the I-Beam... at that speed the inertia of the mass of the I-Beam is WAAY HIGH.. and his tightly gripping hand will feel all that tidal effect of the inertia he has imparted to it with his swing!  Momentum is a bitch.. it will likely rip his fingers off if not pulverize every bone in his hands, as the grip violently flies out of his hands from the momentum of the swing... flesh & bone have their shear force limits... like everything else made of matter.

I pick up a bullet and throw it at you and it bounces off your shirt... no biggie, it's not very heavy at all.  Now I do it again.. but this time I add several thousands of meters of velocity on it and it blows a hole through your chest and the brick wall behind you!  It didn't get heavier.. but its inertia made the impact Much more devastating.  Now do that same with the I-Beam.  Its already damned heavy... so getting hit with it will... hurt {to say the least}.  But, try holding onto it with it moving several hundred feet per second while your standing still...  Good-bye hand!  'nuff said.

Nope. :)

Sorry for the delay in replying.

Weight is solely your angular momentum based on a force (in this case gravity) being applied to a mass.  Ie, gravity as a force measures the pull and thus acceleration on an object towards the source of the gravity.

I'd been pondering how to simplify things via text (before I forgot about this thread). Reducing an item's weight, simply means you are reducing how much force you need to lift it vertically. That's all. You are simply addressing it's relatively momentum downward. It has no other meaning of effect. It doesn't allow you to increase your acceleration of an object for a given net force. That would require changing the mass.

To give another mind experiment. If you have ever seen the challenges of someone pulling a large mass, perhaps a car, or a sled with weights on it, they are having to strain against two elements, the first is the inertia of the object (ie, it is at rest) and in addition whatever friction is inherent in the system... is in wheels, flat against the ground, etc. The most difficult stage is the beginning and starting to get the mass moving. They have to add enough force to the system to accelerate it and change it's momentum. Once it is moving, they can keep pulling it more easily. It will tend to keep moving only shedding speed based on energy lost to friction. An object at rest tends to stay at rest, and an object in motion tends to stay in motion.

The short answer is, whatever he's doing it isn't changing 'weight'.

A solution to what he is doing is that he's transferring the effect mass of the system that is him plus his ibeam to his body and thus changing his the rotational angular momentum of the system. Ie, like when a ballerina/figure skater pulls their arms/legs in after starting to spin which dramatically accelerates the spinning.

http://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/3611/why-does-a-ballerina-speed-up-when-she-pulls-in-her-arms

The 'magic' is that the ibeam isn't actually pulled in, so the location of impact will be on the end portion of the weapon which is now moving ridiculously fast, and with kinetic energy being 1/2 mv^2, you get his legendary (unbeknownst to Polly apparently) destructive capability.

So his magic is a faking out of the rules of physics by shifting mass within a system. Ta da. :)
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Daisuki-chan on March 24, 2015, 05:04:37 pm
Shifting mass without changing the makeup or distribution of matter in the weapon seems a bit too convenient to me. Have you considered that perhaps the warden's use of terms is loose/doesn't match non-fictional modern scientists' use of terms? Anyway, another method would be to simply have the nanobots that are the source of "magic" in Flipside's world be compensating for all the missing force wherever it is needed to create the effect. So if he's lifting the (non I-) beam up it lifts with him to "reduce weight" from the wielder's perspective. This can be applied to any movement based on mass and/or gravity/inertia. For the target struck the nanobots don't have to reduce anything, and just let the beam hit normally.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: dekutree64 on March 24, 2015, 08:40:11 pm
Shifting mass without changing the makeup or distribution of matter in the weapon seems a bit too convenient to me. Have you considered that perhaps the warden's use of terms is loose/doesn't match non-fictional modern scientists' use of terms? Anyway, another method would be to simply have the nanobots that are the source of "magic" in Flipside's world be compensating for all the missing force wherever it is needed to create the effect. So if he's lifting the (non I-) beam up it lifts with him to "reduce weight" from the wielder's perspective. This can be applied to any movement based on mass and/or gravity/inertia. For the target struck the nanobots don't have to reduce anything, and just let the beam hit normally.
Yep, that was my theory as well. Nobody knows the nanobots are there, so they just describe the apparent effect of the spell, rather than its root cause... sort of like gravity in real life :P

Hopefully Bernadette will get her act together and actually start fighting rather than needing rescued. Chop that hand off and fling it at True Strike :D
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: mittfh on March 25, 2015, 01:34:34 am
Currently, Bern only has one ankle pinned - the rest of her body is free to move, so it's possible she could duck out of the way of the beam. With a bit of luck, when it hits the ground, the shockwaves will cause sand mage to lose his grip. If she then keeps moving around the arena, she'll effectively negate two of her opponents (since it undoubtedly takes a few seconds to aim the beam / hand).
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: 9_6 on March 25, 2015, 10:42:25 am
Grant is totally gonna get it.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: SAGG on March 25, 2015, 12:18:21 pm
I suspect the magic swords Bern's holding WILL protect her...yes, er, they'll do the trick...  :D
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Abstract Vagabond on March 25, 2015, 01:33:53 pm
It's definitely the swords that'll help out in the fight. Bern's always had regular swords to fight with. It's gonna be new territory for her. And it will be glorious. I hope it is.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Shazam on March 25, 2015, 05:22:19 pm
Shifting mass without changing the makeup or distribution of matter in the weapon seems a bit too convenient to me. Have you considered that perhaps the warden's use of terms is loose/doesn't match non-fictional modern scientists' use of terms? Anyway, another method would be to simply have the nanobots that are the source of "magic" in Flipside's world be compensating for all the missing force wherever it is needed to create the effect. So if he's lifting the (non I-) beam up it lifts with him to "reduce weight" from the wielder's perspective. This can be applied to any movement based on mass and/or gravity/inertia. For the target struck the nanobots don't have to reduce anything, and just let the beam hit normally.
Yep, that was my theory as well. Nobody knows the nanobots are there, so they just describe the apparent effect of the spell, rather than its root cause... sort of like gravity in real life :P

Hopefully Bernadette will get her act together and actually start fighting rather than needing rescued. Chop that hand off and fling it at True Strike :D

Truthfully, there are all sorts of ways the magic could work via nanobots. I'm fine with any of it. It's magic, or a technology advanced enough to be indistinguishable. My only original nitpick is that it wasn't changing the 'weight', which is just a matter of lifting, not changing lateral momentum. :) Only terminology, not magic.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on March 25, 2015, 05:32:57 pm
Ugh, we've got an issue here.

If it were a side swing, the magic cancellation effect would indeed rip his arm off.

However, a downward swing, if the cancellation hits, I would imagine this would become heavy at exactly the wrong moment. Or... someone help me out here with the physics. Would it pull him off balance?
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Azure Priest on March 26, 2015, 05:23:30 am
Ugh, we've got an issue here.

If it were a side swing, the magic cancellation effect would indeed rip his arm off.

However, a downward swing, if the cancellation hits, I would imagine this would become heavy at exactly the wrong moment. Or... someone help me out here with the physics. Would it pull him off balance?

Short answer, the impact would hurt, A LOT.

Long answer, changing the "weight" to swing it faster without altering the force of impact indeed is an accurate description of changing an object's mass. Or some effect that mimics that result. When the I-beam connects with Bern's "magic negating" swords, the force of impact, 1/2*mV^2 is going to account for mass "m" which is the I-beam's original mass, but will apply "V2"^2 which is the square of the enhanced velocity. So if the blow connects, it will hit with the square of whatever increase he applied. Double the speed, four times the damage, triple the speed, nine times the damage, and so on. If Bern somehow deflects the blow to either side, the unexpected extra mass will easily pull this guy off balance, at the very least. If this guy put in a large enough multiplier, he's going to find himself pulled forward into the ground regardless of whether he connects properly or not.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Stargoat on March 26, 2015, 06:28:14 am
This is assuming that the momentum created by the magic can be interrupted as well. Those two little dinky pieces of metal shouldn't be able to stop a ton of steel even if they disrupt the magic that initially created the momentum.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Shazam on March 26, 2015, 12:50:23 pm
This is assuming that the momentum created by the magic can be interrupted as well. Those two little dinky pieces of metal shouldn't be able to stop a ton of steel even if they disrupt the magic that initially created the momentum.

True, the momentum and energy associated with it is already in the system. That said, I feel like I've created a monster by bringing up the actual physics in my original post about weight vs mass :P

Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: SAGG on March 27, 2015, 12:23:37 am
Woo hoo! Called it!  ;D Your turn, Bern!   8)
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: sunphoenix on March 27, 2015, 04:50:51 am
So.... heh we have an eye opener here...

This seems to mean to me.. IF the source of magic here is the nanites... what they have done..I can only assume physics-wise... the swords are a nano-colony that is dormant until the two swords are used in hand together... the nanites communicate this as the key to do what they are supposed to do.. for the wielder of the swords. 

And what they do is swarm into the person holding the swords and bolster their molecular resilience... and ALSO send a signal to any other non-Indomitable Swords Nanites to cease functioning on contact.  Bern won't notice the effect but if the scene pans back and we see that Bern has cracked the coliseum floor from the impact with the I-Beam.. we know the tale .. her ENTIRE molecular structure has been ..for lack of better terms, 'hardened' to withstand ANY blow that is blocked with the swords.. and the ONLY thing that triggers that.. IS holding the swords.. both at the same time and blocking with them.

These nanites are some Very complex highly specific devices... how 'magical'...
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on March 27, 2015, 06:04:23 am
Quote
So.... heh we have an eye opener here...

This seems to mean to me.. IF the source of magic here is the nanites... what they have done..I can only assume physics-wise... the swords are a nano-colony that is dormant until the two swords are used in hand together... the nanites communicate this as the key to do what they are supposed to do.. for the wielder of the swords. 

I personally don't believe the sword is "magic".

I believe Bern's sword works by being a substance which is intrinsically toxic to the Qualia (yes, remember them?) or which when used together, produces a shockwave (think EMP) that kills nearby Qualia. If the former is true, the substance could very well be something way more atomically dense than say steel, but light like aluminum.

Also, kudos for this scene. Given how Mister Lobster has been dragging his feet on narration, I fully expected a Naruto-style flashback of Bern's life without any resolution to this, and have a part 3 showing her block it.  ;D Okay, that would be terrible.

As it is, this short "goodbye everyone" followed by an Oh Crap moment. The expression on their faces is classic.

Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Stargoat on March 27, 2015, 07:29:49 am
I hear this miniature Pete Abrams sound effect in my head in the third panel. thdunc.

I wonder what happened to the momentum.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: sunphoenix on March 27, 2015, 01:43:01 pm
I wonder what happened to the momentum.

Me too...
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Shazam on March 27, 2015, 02:53:32 pm
I happily have the two sides of looking at things. Her swords are magic,  so they do magic stuff to momentum.

The other side equates the magic on the ideal to a flight spell. It is accelerated through the air by the will of the wielder faster than mere muscle. I wouldn't expect Bern's swords cancelling flight magic to suddenly leave the flyer on the ground as if the magic never set them flying in the first place,  I'd expect them to suddenly tumble from the air at the speed they were going when the magic was cancelled.

All this really means to me is that Bern's swords are more than just magic cancelling.  After all,  just holding up the mass of that ibeam would be hard for Bern's physical strength even if it had been unmoving. So the swords are mighty enchantments with more subtlety than merely being magic cancelling.

Or I'll chalk it up to suspension of disbelief even if she should have been smashed by the rapidly traveling 500lb club. :)
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: 9_6 on March 28, 2015, 02:28:02 am
I hope this being a downward swing was intended and not a mistake.
Not so sure about that since fighting choeography has never been one of your strong points.
Basically, you can no longer get away with those swords just canceling magic now.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on March 28, 2015, 06:06:56 am
I remember there was a law of physics that said that an object (say, a glass of water) was equally broken on the floor and on the edge of the table, that until momentum/gravity/other forces were applied, it would always be between those states.

The swords are antimagic, because they are made from something that is magic in the original sense. If the "magic" here is a type of science, these swords have the power to suspend all of it, by operating on some principal that is beyond science. The other stuff is fake, these swords can somehow dismiss them as such. Since most magic operates under effects that can be produced through science, this effectively protects against everything that the qualia can project; logically, this has a kitchen sink effect against a very wide range of effects.

Let's give an example above. If you sliced this with the sword, the glass, besides whatever wounds the sword produced, there would be no effects of gravity or momentum. It would be on the floor, but it would be whole. It maintains the original cause of how it got from A to B (you knocking it off), but removes all forces applied in the process.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Azure Priest on March 28, 2015, 07:23:21 pm
Well, this is a surprising result! Rather than simply restoring the mass to its original, the negation altered the incoming I-beam's velocity change. So the momentum Bern is experiencing is actually DECREASED by a square of whatever multiplier Mr. I-beam is using. Say he's altering its mass to swing 10 times faster, Bern is actually feeling 100th of the impact she would normally feel by blocking with the swords. The fight suddenly got VERY interesting.

Edit: After some thought I realized what's actually going on. The enchantment does nothing to alter the I-beam's mass or weight at all. It only affects the speed of his swing, and simply "feels lighter" due to the "magic" applying most of the force behind the swing, and then, on impact, absorbs the excess kinetic energy. As a result, while the additional velocity was negated, the "price," ie, consuming a large percentage of the impact's kinetic energy was not. This makes the force of impact considerably light.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: TheCollector on March 30, 2015, 12:14:34 am
So, am I the only one who wonders if the glowing the swords are doing right now isn't just an after effect of the cancellation, but actually a secondary ability where they absorb the power of the last weapon it blocked temporarily. Cause that would be so freaking awesome.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: SAGG on March 30, 2015, 01:39:35 am
So, am I the only one who wonders if the glowing the swords are doing right now isn't just an after effect of the cancellation, but actually a secondary ability where they absorb the power of the last weapon it blocked temporarily. Cause that would be so freaking awesome.

You mean something to the effect that the swords would have the I-Beam's power? Yeah, that WOULD be awesome!  ;D
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on March 30, 2015, 02:57:46 am
Huh. That's interesting.

Best I can understand about these swords is that they're magnetic, and they work together by generating a force field by having a mixed positive/negative charge (that is, they are alternating versus all positive or negative on one side, so they create an energy field rather than attraction). This is a visible electromagnetic field rather than the other sword's power.

http://engineering.mit.edu/ask/why-can%E2%80%99t-magnetism-be-used-source-energy

I'm thinking less "power stealing" and more "power draining". He probably can't use the sword again.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: TheCollector on March 30, 2015, 03:29:27 am
Oh my god!! Enough trying to dissect the science behind the last attack! This is a world where a woman heals from eating people, another woman is permanently invisible and tiny microscopic machines fill the entire planet creating magic.

So do you really think our worlds physics apply to theirs? lol
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: sunphoenix on March 30, 2015, 05:28:53 am
Huh. That's interesting.

Best I can understand about these swords is that they're magnetic, and they work together by generating a force field by having a mixed positive/negative charge (that is, they are alternating versus all positive or negative on one side, so they create an energy field rather than attraction). This is a visible electromagnetic field rather than the other sword's power.

http://engineering.mit.edu/ask/why-can%E2%80%99t-magnetism-be-used-source-energy

I'm thinking less "power stealing" and more "power draining". He probably can't use the sword again.

Hahaha! Spoken like a True 'Brief's'.. Miss Bulma!  Nice catch of the temperamental and fiery alien hunk, by the way! :)  Bet he's just a kitten in bed! hehe{snicker!}

Oh.. and anyone in mind for that strappingly handsome {from his mamma of course 'wink'} equally hunky son of your's?  Perhaps a certain energetic girl named Pan? {nudge-nudge!}
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Azure Priest on March 30, 2015, 05:48:44 am
Oh my god!! Enough trying to dissect the science behind the last attack! This is a world where a woman heals from eating people, another woman is permanently invisible and tiny microscopic machines fill the entire planet creating magic.

So do you really think our worlds physics apply to theirs? lol

A post even more epic than today's comic! Sir I salute you and your wit!

Bern, LET'S GET DANGEROUS!
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: 9_6 on March 31, 2015, 06:50:50 am
Oh my god!! Enough trying to dissect the science behind the last attack! This is a world where a woman heals from eating people, another woman is permanently invisible and tiny microscopic machines fill the entire planet creating magic.

So do you really think our worlds physics apply to theirs? lol

Yes.
Without any point of reference, how are we supposed to find anything at all exciting?
Brion didn't establish that there is an enchantment reducing weight without reducing mass on that beam for shits and giggles.
We need rules so we know what's going on.

Just because it's "fantasy" doesn't mean you have a free pass to make things up as you go along.
More to the contrary, you better think the things you build on through or else you'll sabotage yourself for example hero guys entire motivation is his killed family and now you introduce reviving with no further explanation because "lolfantasy" and plot convenience required character X to live.
With death now apparently being nothing but a minor inconvenience, you just sabotaged hero guys motivation and the entire story.

It is not a "whatever comes to mind" deal.
Please don't insult Brions story telling capabilities like that.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Enkida on April 01, 2015, 02:32:23 am
Oh my god!! Enough trying to dissect the science behind the last attack! This is a world where a woman heals from eating people, another woman is permanently invisible and tiny microscopic machines fill the entire planet creating magic.

So do you really think our worlds physics apply to theirs? lol

I actually enjoy these "nerdy" discussions, even though I feel in no way qualified to contribute to them.  Grounding a fantasy world in science always makes more sense to me, if you're going to throw in scientific terms anyway.  There are nanobots in this world already, why not go for the obvious and allow for basic physics, too.

One example of a big annoyance caught and "fixed" in post production by fan discussion of science? Han Solo's parsec comment in Star Wars.  Fans actually managed to get the franchise to retcon that piece of nonsense into something vaguely workable with discussions just like these here right now.  If the author has a plan, great!  If the author doesn't have a plan, sometimes these kinds of debates can spawn great ideas, too.

Another example of a personal annoyance I had, when fantasy authors don't listen to basic logic?  The Avatar movie.  The successful guerilla warfare of the native aliens was turned into an all-American flat out frontal charge when they were united and led by a trained military human officer.  Wat.  I spent so much of my time on that final battle scene slapping my head and muttering to myself about how much life they could have NOT lost if they had just used basic kindergartner tactics and strategy, instead of a head on charge of basically dinosaurs against mecha.  Yes, drama, plot, heroic scenes and sacrifices created more easily this way, blah blah blah, but I couldn't enjoy any of that because I was too caught up in feeling the writers had engaged in lazy storytelling to get to their point. 

Also, as Neil DeGrasse Tyson said somewhere to somebody, "you can't ignore the laws of gravity just because you want to lose weight.". LOL!  It's more fun when logic and science mixes with the fantasy, it allows me to suspend my disbelief more enjoyably :-)
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Azure Priest on April 01, 2015, 05:42:04 am
Actually, the "Avatar" movie's final battle made perfect sense. The greedy corrupt corp execs and their mercs were getting ready to completely genocide the entire native population from orbit, and a frontal attack on the corp hq was their only option. (They had to neutralize the human controlled equipment before the orbital death rays were in position and started firing.) Also, the guerrilla tactics weren't that effective. Sure, a pack of hunters could take out a company of men, or two, but the massive barrage being fielded by scarface, and an automated orbital strike attuned to their unique heat signatures? Not so much. Heck, they couldn't even stop ONE of those super hauler trucks. The best they could do was "blind" it, and that had a heavy price.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Stargoat on April 01, 2015, 06:06:59 am
lol Brion. That's the funniest thing I've seen all week.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: SAGG on April 01, 2015, 01:47:28 pm
lol Brion. That's the funniest thing I've seen all week.

I think we're being mocked, myself...  ;D
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: sunphoenix on April 01, 2015, 06:44:04 pm
lol Brion. That's the funniest thing I've seen all week.

OH Brion! You are one wrascally-wobster!

You are a SUCH sadistic Tease! :)
{...and I mean that with all due affection if you can't hear the tongue-in-cheek in my written tone} :-*
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Enkida on April 02, 2015, 11:10:47 am
[ avatar movie discussion ]

I disagree completely but I find the plot, pacing and logic in that waste of a film to be so inferior to just about everything in this Flipside comic that I'll nod agreeably at you and get back on topic. ;)
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on April 03, 2015, 08:06:09 am
Welp, she's doing a good job of blocking.

And a very good job of making him look like a chump.  ;D

Uhhh, guys, weren't you supposed to be ummm "killing her"? Far from that, he hasn't given her a scratch.

That said, as long as she stays doing what she's doing, and isn't cocky, I doubt he could give her one. She's a good swordswoman, and she's got a weapon that can stand up to him, the most he could do is hurt her arm or something with powerful blows. But given that she's now blocking one handed, I'm not sure that's an option.

I think this sword operates based on repulsion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repulsive_force

If someone cast a fire spell, normally, all you could do is counter it. Form a barrier, or using an opposite effect. In the opposite effect, this would be using water or ice against fire (real science says you would need to watch for a steam explosion too). In the case of a barrier. Most barriers operate on a constructed field that enough pressure can break. It doesn't look like this is operating that way, however. In fact, it doesn't look like she is being magically drained, or expending any real effort. She's just blocking, and the sword is pushing the blade back (it doesn't look like it, but the entirety of the force is going pfffft). It's not a force shield, so much as the sword is exhibiting targeted repulsion. If someone cast the above flame spell, a force field would last until heat destroyed it. A heat repulsion sword would simply bounce the heat off.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: 9_6 on April 03, 2015, 03:35:17 pm
What's going on.
What does "KIII" mean? What sound is that?
I guess it's not supposed to be a clang?
From Berns pose I could infer that she puts 0 effort at all into blocking blows that have 0 force behind them, thus no clang but I'm not sure that's intentional because true strikes pose also doesn't convey "I will strike you with all I got" to me and I guess in that situation, that's something he'd want to try and do.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Azure Priest on April 04, 2015, 01:03:20 pm
What's going on.
What does "KIII" mean? What sound is that?
I guess it's not supposed to be a clang?
From Berns pose I could infer that she puts 0 effort at all into blocking blows that have 0 force behind them, thus no clang but I'm not sure that's intentional because true strikes pose also doesn't convey "I will strike you with all I got" to me and I guess in that situation, that's something he'd want to try and do.

It's possible that's the sound of metal scraping on metal. Bern had better do something quick though because the yo-yo girl could come along and tie her up with her wicked floss if she only focuses on blocking Mr. I-beam here.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Daisuki-chan on April 04, 2015, 05:38:22 pm
I still have to wonder why people are calling it an I-beam. It clearly has a rather square cross section, while an I-beam has an I-shaped cross section. It's not remotely an I-beam, is it?
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: 9_6 on April 06, 2015, 04:15:22 am
So... why didn't berns dad just visit her (http://flipside.keenspot.com/comic.php?i=2369) to tell her how to use those incredibly complicated weapons she doesn't know what they do?

If I was in jail for threatening someone and my dad gave me a custom AK to use in the daily deathmatches to get out of there and I have never fired an AK, only pistols and it's a weird, mutant AK that I'm not even sure what it does if I pull the trigger so I can only apply my pistol knowledge in a vague way that may or may not apply, you'd think he'd tell me how to use the custom safety, how to load the thing properly, what not to do with it etc. because it's his weapon, he knows everything about it.
In fact I'd probably not use the darn thing at all in a situation with exactly 0 room to fuck around.
I'd stick with what I know works, even if the weapon is "better" cause it's worthless and dangerous if I don't know exactly how to use it.

Grant seems pretty chill about his daughter fighting those incredibly dangerous dudes with his weapons that she knows nothing of.
Doesn't even try to shout instructions or anything, just sits there, passive, sweaty, inner monologue-ing.
I could buy it if he tried but got drowned out by the crowd or if he had to remind himself that it's no good to distract her now by calling out to her or something but none of that seems to be happening.
It's kinda hard to buy that he gives a shit you know.

Also did we address why bern can't just be bailed out in a country where money supposedly rules everything?
Polly surely has more than double the 800 gold pieces the healer asked and that super expensive sword and entry fee to the colosseum grant paid was probably more than that too but we've never seen any negotiations to the effect of just getting Bern out of there, only getting in there with Bern and giving Bern that sword.

Would be funny if after all that dramatic fighting buildup fueled by poor decision making, May just shows up and fucks off with Bern because she was the only one to do the sensible thing and sputtered a droplet of the metric ocean of cash she now swims in at the direction of the arena dude.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Azure Priest on April 06, 2015, 06:31:45 am
Grant doesn't have access to his daughter or her cell. He BARELY has access to the audience. It was a minor miracle that Bern got her hands on those swords. The "bosses" let it happen only let it happen because they thought she'd be killed anyway.

Little did they know that those swords were BUILT for her, and her fighting style, a style she has mastered.

Bern, now kick some ass before these yahoos get smart and take the swords out of your hands.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: 9_6 on April 06, 2015, 07:19:31 am
Well I guess I forgot about this (http://flipside.keenspot.com/comic.php?i=2127).
Still, no visitors? No contacting relatives when locking people away for over half a year?
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on April 07, 2015, 06:17:42 am
So... why didn't berns dad just visit her (http://flipside.keenspot.com/comic.php?i=2369) to tell her how to use those incredibly complicated weapons she doesn't know what they do?

If I was in jail for threatening someone and my dad gave me a custom AK to use in the daily deathmatches to get out of there and I have never fired an AK, only pistols and it's a weird, mutant AK that I'm not even sure what it does if I pull the trigger so I can only apply my pistol knowledge in a vague way that may or may not apply, you'd think he'd tell me how to use the custom safety, how to load the thing properly, what not to do with it etc. because it's his weapon, he knows everything about it.
In fact I'd probably not use the darn thing at all in a situation with exactly 0 room to fuck around.
I'd stick with what I know works, even if the weapon is "better" cause it's worthless and dangerous if I don't know exactly how to use it.

Grant seems pretty chill about his daughter fighting those incredibly dangerous dudes with his weapons that she knows nothing of.


Uhhhh, this was answered in the comic itself. She already knows how to use this. Because it's part of the sword style she's mastered and learned all her life. Unlike magical items, this seems to work automatically so it's closer to "here's a bazooka, pull the trigger" to someone already trained in lifting heavy stuff. They just hoist the bazooka, aim and pull it. It looks like aside from blocking she's giving virtually no effort on this.

That said, to win she's gotta find an opening. And at least finish him before the others pull more tricks on her. 2 on one, when the two are effect users, not as hard as 2 effect users, and one physical threat.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Stargoat on April 07, 2015, 07:38:39 am
I still have to wonder why people are calling it an I-beam. It clearly has a rather square cross section, while an I-beam has an I-shaped cross section. It's not remotely an I-beam, is it?

Because I-Beam is funny.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: sunphoenix on April 07, 2015, 11:29:58 pm
I still have to wonder why people are calling it an I-beam. It clearly has a rather square cross section, while an I-beam has an I-shaped cross section. It's not remotely an I-beam, is it?

Because I-Beam is funny.

<-- This.. precisely! :)
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: ducky_worshiper on April 08, 2015, 12:03:24 am
I have to admit I'm a little disappointed that Bern appears to have to go through basically no character growth so far. She just sort of gets handed magic weapons that will let her win the fight.

I'm reserving total judgement until I see how this plays out, but I think this particular arc has left a lot to be desired so far.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: 9_6 on April 08, 2015, 06:42:15 am
I don't think Berns character growth comes from the fight since the invincible bernadette losing a fight has been done and done already.
It'll probably come from dealing with the wardens deal and how she handles sex. Perhaps she'll get even more prude and bitter and can't even handle being with may anymore.
Perhaps she'll start something with polly and now has to walk a mile in mays shoes. We don't know yet.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: mittfh on April 09, 2015, 12:22:17 am
It would probably be Bern's style to wait until he's tried every permutation with his sword, then say something to the effect of "You can't kill me with that thing, and I refuse to kill you. Truce?"

Not that he'd accept, but Warden may see the opportunity to take brute-force weapon users down a peg or two by scheduling fights against Bern - especially if she adds some choreography to her routine rather than standing in one spot (e.g. getting close enough to swipe through the waistband of their clothes while barely penetrating their skin) to make it less of "unstoppable force meets immovable object"...
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Azure Priest on April 09, 2015, 05:34:29 am
And what's his face is clearly SO frustrated and determined to break Bern's guard by brute force that he's clearly going to cripple himself, or lose his grip on his weapon, or both. It's not going to be pretty when that happens.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: 9_6 on April 09, 2015, 07:28:55 am
Bit high on the speedlines there but I can see weight in that attack. Nice improvement.
Nothing else much to say about this page.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: sunphoenix on April 10, 2015, 07:42:26 am
Bit high on the speedlines there but I can see weight in that attack. Nice improvement.
Nothing else much to say about this page.

No.. I don't think so.  I'm a 'amateur' swordsman and when someone keeps making the same series of swings against your clearly superior defenses and makes no attempt to change their approach of attack... I've been taught you let them do it and set up to do a lethal series of return counterstrikes.  WHICH is exactly what Bern is about to do or IS doing on today's page!

Split Rose is supposed to be a VERY good style for that type of... 'bait foe to attack and when they do... gut them!'

Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: 9_6 on April 10, 2015, 08:45:46 am
No.. I don't think so.  I'm a 'amateur' swordsman and when someone keeps making the same series of swings against your clearly superior defenses and makes no attempt to change their approach of attack... I've been taught you let them do it and set up to do a lethal series of return counterstrikes.  WHICH is exactly what Bern is about to do or IS doing on today's page!

Split Rose is supposed to be a VERY good style for that type of... 'bait foe to attack and when they do... gut them!'

Yeah, well, that's kinda hard to read out of the comic. There's not that much nuance illustrated in terms of actual, realistic fighting techniques.
You practice swordfighting, you also know that large, easy to read swings you keep seeing in movies and games are a no-go and that includes 2 handed swords.
You want to be hard to read, present very little vulnerable surface which unfortunately also looks a lot less spectacular.

I guess it's fair to just assume that beambro is a seasoned veteran and wouldn't do such a rookie mistake just like we just accept that the "split rose" is the "ultimate defense technique" even though it probably doesn't make much sense in a real fight in which lots of sword "clang clang" never really happens.
This is viewed through the lense of someone lacking actual swordfighting experience after all and fighting isn't the focus of flipside anyway (although that doesn't mean an improvement illustrating it isn't welcome).
Let's not forget that.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: sunphoenix on April 10, 2015, 12:54:11 pm
Well... there IS a role for telegraphed, clearly readable moves... if one is cunning and skillful enough with swordfighting.

Case in point.. My teacher and I got toa point we could spar full contact full speed with our practice bokkens.  The one time.. the ONLY time I ever bested him was when I intentionally did what I-Beam boy did here.. I telegraphed an exaggerated high over-hand swing.. easily blocked... but that was my plan.  Sure enough my teacher gave me a slight quizical look that turned to stunned surprise as he blocked high, too high.. which then I drew my bokken down his 'blade' and poked him in the ribbs under his defenses cause his 'blade' was too high to stop my thrust from the baiting attack that was actually a feinted thrust.

:)  That was NOT a move or technique he had taught me.  And with a smile he told me I had mastered all he could teach me and that anything new I would learn.. would be my own style and techniques.

So yes.. there is a place for telegraphed moves in swordfighting.. but on the whole you are correct.. you do not want your opponent being able to anticipate your moves.. or you will be set up for a counterstrike.. your not ready to parry.

I haven't of late taken time to 'talk' with my sword in practice.. but I remember my teacher's lessons well.

:( My teacher does not practice the art of the blade anymore.. on account he .. in self-defense killed an mugger years ago when he was working a courier job in down town Indianapolis.  He.. did not mean to kill the young man.. but he was not alone.. also 'strangely' enough there were two other attackers with him.  They were armed with knife, baseball bat and one of them wore cleets.  My teacher fought them off breaking the knife wielder's tibbia in his arm ... but the one he killed wielding a baseball bat he parried twice ...set him up for a return counterstrike with a reverse high block.. then struck him twice once on each side of his head.. one broke his jaw.. the other rendered him unconscious.  Three days latter we learned he died due to complications from the concussion.

My teacher had a real sword.. sharpened sword in the window of his truck and a 'baby' Eagle 9mm Automatic in his fanny pack... but his practice bokken was in the seat.. he grabbed that instead.

After he learned of the young man's death.. he sold his swords and his guns and never touched them again.  I can't say I .. disagree or totally approve with his choice.. but I respect it. 

Though I do miss terribly our sparring sessions sometimes, I have NEVER forgotten that what I know about wielding a sword.. can and is meant for killing~ my teacher always stressed I respect the art!  It is not a game or a toy to play with.  I fortunately have never had to wield my skills to protect my life or the lives of others.. but I'm confident.. I could do so.

I have taught the daughter of a Very close friend of mine the techniques I was taught.  She is very smart and VERY mature.. and .. before the death.. my teacher had asked if I find someone who is mature enough and respects the art.. that I should pass on what I know.

I'm glad I got the chance to do so.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on April 11, 2015, 07:43:28 am
I have to admit I'm a little disappointed that Bern appears to have to go through basically no character growth so far. She just sort of gets handed magic weapons that will let her win the fight.

I'm reserving total judgement until I see how this plays out, but I think this particular arc has left a lot to be desired so far.

I remember in college, a guy from my drama class was convinced that if a character wasn't completely different, the writer hadn't done their job. I wasn't sure I agreed. Now I know I don't.

A character can be made one-dimensional (that character is "evil/good", that character is their job title like a guard or smith, that character is pretty/ugly, basically they can be summed up in a single word) or flat, two-dimensional or have personality (basically you choose a list of traits, and the character is basically the sum of their traits), or three-dimensional (they act like a real person you would meet on the street rather than a persona, they have flaws, they have pain, they may have addictions or moments of darkness) and "well-rounded". Now, being one-dimensional isn't always a bad thing provided the character is minor, likewise, a story is said to be really good if minor characters are at least two dimensional. Likewise, unless you are doing a melodrama, the hero of the story should not come across as one-dimensional, as people will accuse you of bad writing.

Among fully fleshed out characters, there are two distinct and equally valuable character types. The static character and the dynamic character.

The static character, despite their name, actually can undergo character development along the course of the series, but they tend not to. That is, a static character has character development as an optional feature. Bern is a static character. A good example of this tye would be Naruto, he spends over half the show talking about how he won't take back his words, that is his ninja way. Character development on his part is extremely subtle, and he simply adds character rather than changing any of his current ways (he still won't do this or that because of his ninja way, but gradually learns to trust his comrades and not try to do everything himself).

The dynamic character, undergoes character development frequently, changing gradually from one person to another. They are not afraid to let go things that aren't working for them, and massively revamp their personality. Maytag is a good example as she started out deadpan, and then became the mask, and is expected to change even more. A good anime example of this  is Luke from Tales of the Abyss, starting out as a nice jerk, becoming just a jerk, realizing the error of his ways, then he finds out he's a clone, then gradually becomes a proper hero.

Quote
I guess it's fair to just assume that beambro is a seasoned veteran and wouldn't do such a rookie mistake just like we just accept that the "split rose" is the "ultimate defense technique" even though it probably doesn't make much sense in a real fight in which lots of sword "clang clang" never really happens.

Do we in fact know this? Maybe he's a person who has gotten by on a heavy weapon and using gravity-self magic. Sort of like if you have wolverine-style healing, and something hits you that can't be healed, you wouldn't normally be good at dodging, because you would be expecting to shrug it off (wolverine, oddly enough being an exception, because despite being night-immortal is also a seasoned fighter). Bern on the other hand, has had plenty of experience in all types of combat, and knows when to get out of the way and when to try to block. She uses a style that requires studying the enemy rather than just slashing people down. It seems to me, that she is the seasoned warrior, he's just a big thug with a big sword. Especially given that his attacks leave openings all over the place, and after being blocked, his first instinct is to just do a big overwhelming downswing. Oh yea, the other stuff worked so well, let's try the same tactic. If he was a seasoned warrior, he would try to disrupt her balance by attacking the ground or something (we know the sword can disrupt direct attacks, but maybe not shock waves or indirect stuff).

I was thinking this as well, but the problem is, that sword isn't a tiny bokken, so any feint would require teamwork with the others.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Azure Priest on April 12, 2015, 01:22:14 am
The only reason Bern's not moving is that she's being held in place by Mr. "Sand Magic." Otherwise, your analysis is quite accurate. Bern needs to do something though if she doesn't want to be tied up by Ms "Combat Yoyo" like a thanksgiving turkey full of stuffing.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: 9_6 on April 12, 2015, 09:12:14 am
Quote
I guess it's fair to just assume that beambro is a seasoned veteran and wouldn't do such a rookie mistake just like we just accept that the "split rose" is the "ultimate defense technique" even though it probably doesn't make much sense in a real fight in which lots of sword "clang clang" never really happens.

Do we in fact know this? Maybe he's a person who has gotten by on a heavy weapon and using gravity-self magic. Sort of like if you have wolverine-style healing, and something hits you that can't be healed, you wouldn't normally be good at dodging, because you would be expecting to shrug it off (wolverine, oddly enough being an exception, because despite being night-immortal is also a seasoned fighter).

You think that's all it takes to be way too badass for A-rank? A big stick?
If so, mostly everyone in S-rank is fucked sideways when facing berns no-nonsense swords.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: SAGG on April 13, 2015, 01:41:32 am
YES!! Bern obliterates the Big Guy's weapon! Wonder what everybody's thinking now? The warden will probably cock a cool eyebrow while Polly flips out with joy. And please take note that Bern's ankle is now free. I guess even the old dude that held her got the message, too... ;D
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Azure Priest on April 13, 2015, 05:48:27 am
Quote
I guess it's fair to just assume that beambro is a seasoned veteran and wouldn't do such a rookie mistake just like we just accept that the "split rose" is the "ultimate defense technique" even though it probably doesn't make much sense in a real fight in which lots of sword "clang clang" never really happens.

Do we in fact know this? Maybe he's a person who has gotten by on a heavy weapon and using gravity-self magic. Sort of like if you have wolverine-style healing, and something hits you that can't be healed, you wouldn't normally be good at dodging, because you would be expecting to shrug it off (wolverine, oddly enough being an exception, because despite being night-immortal is also a seasoned fighter).

You think that's all it takes to be way too badass for A-rank? A big stick?
If so, mostly everyone in S-rank is fucked sideways when facing berns no-nonsense swords.

He's A rank because he doesn't have enough control or finesse. He has enough strength and brute force for S-rank, but if he actually wields it, he would kill his opponent.... except now that Bern has the swords of Split Rose.

Oh, yeah, way to completely smash that I-beam Bern, and yes, it's an I-beam. It has an "I" cross section but a piece of metal welded over the end to make it look like a club. Everyone must be going WTF!
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: sunphoenix on April 13, 2015, 05:59:20 am
HA! SPECTACULAR!  Wish it was in color... 'Bernadette~ Indomitable!'

"We can't afford to be innocent."
"Stand up and face it~ Its the enemy!"

"Its a do or die situation!"
"We Will BE INVINCIBLE!"

"And with the Power of Conviction,
"There is no sacrifice!"

"Its a do or die situation!"
"WE WILL BE INVINCIBLE!"


:)
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on April 13, 2015, 06:08:13 am
Linked so I don't have to go back and forth.

http://flipside.keenspot.com/comic.php?i=2515

Why is the sword splitting like it's made of stone? It sorta reminds me of working backstage in theatre where something is painted to look like wood but is actually foam. (Hint: stone smashes into blocks when cut by something sharp, metal and glass tend to form jagged edges)

Quote
He's A rank because he doesn't have enough control or finesse. He has enough strength and brute force for S-rank, but if he actually wields it, he would kill his opponent.... except now that Bern has the swords of Split Rose.

I suspect he's also A/S rank because he's a brute without a weapon. In all likelihood, holding back means he normally fights sans I-beam. He can probably do the same thing with his bare fists to lesser extent, make a heavy/light punch.  That said, he'd probably have a better chance trying to punch her as himself instead of relying on magic to boost him. But he strikes me as an idiot so I suspect this won't dawn on him.

I suspect at least a panel next comic of complete and utter shock.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: 9_6 on April 13, 2015, 06:11:27 am
Oh, you did an anticipation thing and it worked.
Good job. Nice flow.
Where did old mans grabby hand go and what did yoyo girl do meanwhile though?
Looks like "sit around and wait patiently" is their jam after all so far.

Why is the sword splitting like it's made of stone?
Maybe an extremely hard and therefore brittle metal alloy with low bendiness.
Or it may just be stone after all. It being metal is just our assumption and not stated anywhere in the comic or is it?
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on April 13, 2015, 06:19:21 am
I also think about now (after he gets up from getting thrown across the room when she pushed forward and sliced his sword), they'll probably switch to a gang-up approach. Him trying to brawl punch her, the others lobbing various types of magic. I assume with her name being Blue Fire she has something more in her bag of tricks than just the rope stuff.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: MaronaPossessed on April 13, 2015, 09:45:22 am
Pg 18..HOLY SCREAMING HORESHIT! :o
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Enkida on April 13, 2015, 10:40:06 am
Being the intellectually deep and thoughtful poster that I am, I just want to say of page 18: that flat chested long haired supermodel in a gladiatorial bikini is my favourite type of eye candy.  I didn't actually notice Beambro being neutered until I read this thread.  Too busy looking at Bern's runway body there, oops.

*coughs and waves all the debaters back in*

ps. also
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/f3/ce/f5/f3cef5f1609dd88de37208574838501d.jpg)
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: sunphoenix on April 13, 2015, 11:43:49 am
LOL! Milla Jovovich for a live action Bernadette! HA! :)
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Daisuki-chan on April 13, 2015, 07:23:42 pm
Oh, yeah, way to completely smash that I-beam Bern, and yes, it's an I-beam. It has an "I" cross section but a piece of metal welded over the end to make it look like a club.
Surely thou jest. In reality it was nearly square (rounded corners) but for having four slight indentations, one along each side. It was also consistently this way, and not merely modified on the end. There's no reason he'd have started with an I-beam (which is only symmetrical in two rotations, 0 and 180 degrees, rather than the four, 0/90/180/270 degrees, of this ex-weapon), nor really any reason that I-beams would be much of a thing in Flipside's world, for all we know.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Smiles on April 14, 2015, 12:18:44 am
Huzzah! now its a matter of who will attack next.... or maybe all at the same time. :D
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Azure Priest on April 14, 2015, 05:11:59 am
Oh, yeah, way to completely smash that I-beam Bern, and yes, it's an I-beam. It has an "I" cross section but a piece of metal welded over the end to make it look like a club.
Surely thou jest. In reality it was nearly square (rounded corners) but for having four slight indentations, one along each side. It was also consistently this way, and not merely modified on the end. There's no reason he'd have started with an I-beam (which is only symmetrical in two rotations, 0 and 180 degrees, rather than the four, 0/90/180/270 degrees, of this ex-weapon), nor really any reason that I-beams would be much of a thing in Flipside's world, for all we know.

If you look more closely at the debris of that weapon, you will see various pieces all wearing the iconic "I" cross section.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on April 14, 2015, 06:25:12 am
Wait, isn't an I-beam this?

(http://www.axionintl.com/images/productsilos/ibeamSolidsilo500pxsp.jpg)

http://flipside.keenspot.com/comic.php?i=2481

That is pretty clearly not an I-beam.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: 9_6 on April 14, 2015, 07:24:46 am
Maybe if it is an apple product...
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Daisuki-chan on April 14, 2015, 05:36:21 pm
Oh, yeah, way to completely smash that I-beam Bern, and yes, it's an I-beam. It has an "I" cross section but a piece of metal welded over the end to make it look like a club.
Surely thou jest. In reality it was nearly square (rounded corners) but for having four slight indentations, one along each side. It was also consistently this way, and not merely modified on the end. There's no reason he'd have started with an I-beam (which is only symmetrical in two rotations, 0 and 180 degrees, rather than the four, 0/90/180/270 degrees, of this ex-weapon), nor really any reason that I-beams would be much of a thing in Flipside's world, for all we know.

If you look more closely at the debris of that weapon, you will see various pieces all wearing the iconic "I" cross section.
I suggest that you quickly go through the chapter and make note of the symmetric four-sided nature of the weapon. Also, when it was turned into chunks the depth of the indentations doesn't resemble bulmabriefs144's picture of an I-beam well at all, so there's no page I'm aware of that supports your conclusion very well.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: sunphoenix on April 14, 2015, 07:40:34 pm
Oh, yeah, way to completely smash that I-beam Bern, and yes, it's an I-beam. It has an "I" cross section but a piece of metal welded over the end to make it look like a club.
Surely thou jest. In reality it was nearly square (rounded corners) but for having four slight indentations, one along each side. It was also consistently this way, and not merely modified on the end. There's no reason he'd have started with an I-beam (which is only symmetrical in two rotations, 0 and 180 degrees, rather than the four, 0/90/180/270 degrees, of this ex-weapon), nor really any reason that I-beams would be much of a thing in Flipside's world, for all we know.

If you look more closely at the debris of that weapon, you will see various pieces all wearing the iconic "I" cross section.
I suggest that you quickly go through the chapter and make note of the symmetric four-sided nature of the weapon. Also, when it was turned into chunks the depth of the indentations doesn't resemble bulmabriefs144's picture of an I-beam well at all, so there's no page I'm aware of that supports your conclusion very well.

FOR THE RECORD... I'm the one who called his weapon an "I-Beam"... it was not meant to be descriptive.. merely pejorative in a 'tongue-in-cheek' fashion.  So ....Please stop arguing about it!  I meant it in jest. :)
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Keneto on April 15, 2015, 07:50:31 am
I have to admit I'm a little disappointed that Bern appears to have to go through basically no character growth so far. She just sort of gets handed magic weapons that will let her win the fight.

I'm reserving total judgement until I see how this plays out, but I think this particular arc has left a lot to be desired so far.

Yes. Deus ex machina to the rescue here. Bern, through no striving/skill/ability of her own, escapes a dire situation. It's David and Goliath except no one warned Goliath that David is carrying a machine gun.

Hopefully Bern gets rid of this guy quickly so we can get back to Maytag (who is using her own abilities, by the way)
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Chnmmr on April 15, 2015, 10:24:17 am
And BOOM that's what we were waiting for.  As for Bern getting no character development, she has had tons.  She's being forced to go against her very nature as a pacifist and kill/maim to save not only herself but her friend.  She's also having to accept magic as a source of her current strength.  This is the perfect kind of development for Bern's character.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: sunphoenix on April 15, 2015, 11:58:55 am
And BOOM that's what we were waiting for.  As for Bern getting no character development, she has had tons.  She's being forced to go against her very nature as a pacifist and kill/maim to save not only herself but her friend.  She's also having to accept magic as a source of her current strength.  This is the perfect kind of development for Bern's character.

I agree for this reason and several others that have been hit upon.  I do, however, NOT think this match with the other two is  'won' already.  Brute force may not work on Bern's invincible blades.. but there are MANY ways around the 'blade'.. the other two should be interesting fights.. as they will also have to 'dig-deep' to fight in new and unorthodox ways.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: ducky_worshiper on April 15, 2015, 02:07:08 pm
To be entirely fair, she's neither killed nor maimed anyone. She also accepted using the magic blades a long time ago when she originally began searching for its partner.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on April 15, 2015, 06:22:57 pm
And BOOM that's what we were waiting for.  As for Bern getting no character development, she has had tons.  She's being forced to go against her very nature as a pacifist and kill/maim to save not only herself but her friend.  She's also having to accept magic as a source of her current strength.  This is the perfect kind of development for Bern's character.

I agree for this reason and several others that have been hit upon.  I do, however, NOT think this match with the other two is  'won' already.  Brute force may not work on Bern's invincible blades.. but there are MANY ways around the 'blade'.. the other two should be interesting fights.. as they will also have to 'dig-deep' to fight in new and unorthodox ways.

Classically, the way to counter antimagic is to alter the environment around them. A direct attack can be negated, but heating up the air, or removing the land via earthquake means things get uncomfy for the person, and they might be defeated anyway from stuff just being generally unpleasant.

She just sliced chunks of flesh though.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: SAGG on April 16, 2015, 12:23:14 am
ALRIGHT,  BERN!!  ;D
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Azure Priest on April 16, 2015, 05:08:39 am
And BOOM that's what we were waiting for.  As for Bern getting no character development, she has had tons.  She's being forced to go against her very nature as a pacifist and kill/maim to save not only herself but her friend.  She's also having to accept magic as a source of her current strength.  This is the perfect kind of development for Bern's character.

I agree for this reason and several others that have been hit upon.  I do, however, NOT think this match with the other two is  'won' already.  Brute force may not work on Bern's invincible blades.. but there are MANY ways around the 'blade'.. the other two should be interesting fights.. as they will also have to 'dig-deep' to fight in new and unorthodox ways.

Classically, the way to counter antimagic is to alter the environment around them. A direct attack can be negated, but heating up the air, or removing the land via earthquake means things get uncomfy for the person, and they might be defeated anyway from stuff just being generally unpleasant.

She just sliced chunks of flesh though.

Actually, it looks like his injuries are the result of his own weapon's shrapnel when Bern blew it up. (Look at all those strange cross sections.)

We've already seen that attacks which don't connect with the blades themselves are still effective. Mr. "Sandman" could, and did grab her leg and push her down. If Ms. Magic Yoyo were to tie Bern up, Bern could be disarmed and rendered helpless very quickly. Unfortunately for them, it seems their strategy was "keep her busy until Mr. I-Beam crushes her into paste." With him out of the picture, they'd better start thinking, and fast because now that Bern knows she CAN win, she's getting angry, very angry.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: SAGG on April 16, 2015, 03:10:13 pm
And BOOM that's what we were waiting for.  As for Bern getting no character development, she has had tons.  She's being forced to go against her very nature as a pacifist and kill/maim to save not only herself but her friend.  She's also having to accept magic as a source of her current strength.  This is the perfect kind of development for Bern's character.

I agree for this reason and several others that have been hit upon.  I do, however, NOT think this match with the other two is  'won' already.  Brute force may not work on Bern's invincible blades.. but there are MANY ways around the 'blade'.. the other two should be interesting fights.. as they will also have to 'dig-deep' to fight in new and unorthodox ways.

Classically, the way to counter antimagic is to alter the environment around them. A direct attack can be negated, but heating up the air, or removing the land via earthquake means things get uncomfy for the person, and they might be defeated anyway from stuff just being generally unpleasant.

She just sliced chunks of flesh though.

Actually, it looks like his injuries are the result of his own weapon's shrapnel when Bern blew it up. (Look at all those strange cross sections.)

We've already seen that attacks which don't connect with the blades themselves are still effective. Mr. "Sandman" could, and did grab her leg and push her down. If Ms. Magic Yoyo were to tie Bern up, Bern could be disarmed and rendered helpless very quickly. Unfortunately for them, it seems their strategy was "keep her busy until Mr. I-Beam crushes her into paste." With him out of the picture, they'd better start thinking, and fast because now that Bern knows she CAN win, she's getting angry, very angry.

That about sums it up. It looks like now they're beginning to panic because Bern's blocking their beams off. Just thought about something else: If Bern's successful beating the other two, would she then take on the warden? Would the warden fight her, seeing how powerful those swords are? Perhaps the warden might use Polly as a bargaining chip to force Bern to surrender?  ???
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: sunphoenix on April 16, 2015, 03:32:52 pm
Being the intellectually deep and thoughtful poster that I am, I just want to say of page 18: that flat chested long haired supermodel in a gladiatorial bikini is my favourite type of eye candy.  I didn't actually notice Beambro being neutered until I read this thread.  Too busy looking at Bern's runway body there, oops.

*coughs and waves all the debaters back in*

ps. also
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/f3/ce/f5/f3cef5f1609dd88de37208574838501d.jpg)

You know.. Bern's... not THAT Flat chested...

http://flipside.keenspot.com/comic.php?i=314

But I've noticed that the artist has been minimizing her bosom even more in this Chapter...
:) I certainly wouldn't kick the pretty redhead out of MY bed... if she were so inclined to join me!
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Azure Priest on April 17, 2015, 05:47:26 am
 :-* :o That was awesome, Bern. A flaming BOLA, and a sand net came your way, yet you blocked them both. Looks like Mr. Sandman forgot what he learned earlier, and Ms. Bola wasn't paying attention. Bern, take them down and go rank S!
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: 9_6 on April 17, 2015, 07:28:59 am
Why is the old dude not butt naked like everyone else?
If we're doing this, we might as well go all the way and have wrinkly old man nutsack scrape all over the floor.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: MaronaPossessed on April 17, 2015, 10:19:13 am
A winner is her!
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Furcas on April 17, 2015, 10:23:50 am
Well this is silly, the swords are doing all the work for her. All she has to do is block.

You've made the swords too powerful, Brion. At most they should absorb a fraction of the magical energy depending on how well the attack is blocked, which would then increase the sword's attack power, or something, so Bern would have to actually strike her foes.


Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Furcas on April 17, 2015, 01:37:47 pm
Why is the old dude not butt naked like everyone else?
If we're doing this, we might as well go all the way and have wrinkly old man nutsack scrape all over the floor.

The point is to attract spectators.

Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Silverdrake on April 17, 2015, 01:53:00 pm
Well this is silly, the swords are doing all the work for her. All she has to do is block.

You've made the swords too powerful, Brion. At most they should absorb a fraction of the magical energy depending on how well the attack is blocked, which would then increase the sword's attack power, or something, so Bern would have to actually strike her foes.

I somewhat do agree. I did not expect her to easily defeat those guys - and surely not due to the swords alone. But if we look at this from a greater point of view: those three guys here were among the biggest fish in this tank - but Bernadette is going to fight much more dangerous and capable foes later.
If you want it this way: the foes here are like lower midlevel or even midlevel and we're getting to see just how powerful Bernadette with these swords is. And then, when she's back in the story, she'll *need* this kind of power when she faces really powerful enemies. This fight here is just so she and we can get used to it. The shock will come when some foes resist her newly found superpowers - and when something really is at stake (not just her life that she would give willingly if it has to happen).
Imagine the world or Maytag being at risk at the hands of some really high-level foes.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: 9_6 on April 17, 2015, 02:06:57 pm
I don't know about your "too powerful", "mid-level" or "high-level" assumptions.
This was way too abstract to confer anything. Nonspecific energy attack things somehow got deflected.
We need to know which rules those swords play by. There has to be something they can't do.
Then we can guesstimate their overpoweredness.

Right now, bern could do stuff like gently tapping a wall with those things which hulk smashes  a giant hole into it and all we can do is just accept that as something bern can do now.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: SAGG on April 17, 2015, 02:55:30 pm
See, we're (or rather you all) are assuming the newly-empowered Bern will NOT attempt to take on the warden now, and try to get Polly. Why am I thinking she'll do just that...?  ???

And I see nothing wrong in Bern's REALLY powerful weapons. With what she's (and we've) gone through seeing how much of a wussy she's been, this more than makes up for it!  ;D
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on April 17, 2015, 05:11:55 pm
Why is the old dude not butt naked like everyone else?
If we're doing this, we might as well go all the way and have wrinkly old man nutsack scrape all over the floor.

Thank you for that completely horrifying image. I will have nightmares forever.

Quote
Well this is silly, the swords are doing all the work for her. All she has to do is block.

I suppose you'd still say that if you were in a cage match with three trained killers. Blocking is rather tough to do when you're outnumbered. I'm an amateur blunt weapon (usually staff) user. I know a few quarterstaff moves from watching people, and some sword skills, so I can technically fight "two sworded" with bamboo. I was at a farm and we were goofing off, and I could beat most of the other people fighting with bamboo in single combat, and block effectively. However, as soon as they came at me from two sides, dividing my concentration was pretty difficult, and I routinely got clobbered. This by the way was against kids less than half my age, meaning when it was just one, I could block and counter without hurting them seriously. From two directions, I lost to kids.

There is actually way more skill involved in blocking than attacking. Most people can win at chess by being hyperaggressive, but winning a game of the same where you simply counter all advances, and then "oh, checkmate" yea that's a bit harder.

Also, I think there is a learning curve to these swords. They do in fact operate on repulsion (yay, I was right!) but initially all they did was halt the force of the attack. What she's doing now is effectively pushing the attacks back with her own strength.

In all likelihood, the limit to the swords is her limit. As in, if someone were to use a continuous energy pulse (think force lightning from Star Wars), and keep solid pressure going, Bern might have trouble pushing back the attack. No, the swords aren't absorbing the energy, they are pushing stuff back.

These swords probably couldn't smash a wall. They are a defensive not offensive sword.  The reason these swords smashed, the reason the spells reflected?

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AttackReflector

The sword smashed because its own magically enhanced force rebounded.

The spells turned back because of the same.

Because of this, her enemies rather than being "high-level" (it wouldn't make a difference) either use nonmagical tricks (the extending staff may have been just a retractable staff with a taser attached) or have real weapon skill. It's like Inuyasha's Backlash Wave, it probably has a stronger effect the more powerful magic the attack, so ironicallly "high-level" attacks are precisely what opponents will avoid using.

Also, btw, these weren't unrecognizable effects. Bolo Girl used a razor wind effect, the old guy used a flame sphere.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Wulf on April 17, 2015, 08:29:13 pm
I do say, the reverse reflection effect on those swords would need to be rather carefully balanced in any game setting.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Pinkk on April 17, 2015, 11:17:36 pm
OMG!  LOVE THIS NEW PAGE!  AWESOME!  Love seeing Bern kicking butt for a change!
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on April 18, 2015, 05:37:20 am
Effectively, it's a rebound effect.

There are some things a clever caster can do to make her have trouble. And in a standard swordfight, she would still need to use all of her skill. I run D&D campaigns, and you can say that ability is unbalanced, or you can find a way the characters can counter it. Obviously, head-on magic attacks, is not the way.

Stuff like tying her legs down, yeah that seemed to work.

And yea, after alot of failure, depressive scenes, and other crap, it's nice to see Bern win like this.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Azure Priest on April 18, 2015, 05:51:33 am
Wow, the sand net went after Ms. Bola, and the Flaming Bola went after Mr. Sand Mage., and they were BOTH too stupefied to react properly.  Yeah, Bern wins. It was so satisfying to see those smug looks disappear. Now comes the aftermath. PLEASE don't do something stupid, Bern. Just accept your A-rank and keep your mouth shut.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: 9_6 on April 18, 2015, 10:50:54 am
That's not a reflection btw, girl gets hit by old guy attack and vice versa.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Silverdrake on April 18, 2015, 12:12:29 pm
Why is the old dude not butt naked like everyone else?
If we're doing this, we might as well go all the way and have wrinkly old man nutsack scrape all over the floor.

Thank you for that completely horrifying image. I will have nightmares forever.

Quote
Well this is silly, the swords are doing all the work for her. All she has to do is block.

I suppose you'd still say that if you were in a cage match with three trained killers. Blocking is rather tough to do when you're outnumbered. I'm an amateur blunt weapon (usually staff) user. I know a few quarterstaff moves from watching people, and some sword skills, so I can technically fight "two sworded" with bamboo. I was at a farm and we were goofing off, and I could beat most of the other people fighting with bamboo in single combat, and block effectively. However, as soon as they came at me from two sides, dividing my concentration was pretty difficult, and I routinely got clobbered. This by the way was against kids less than half my age, meaning when it was just one, I could block and counter without hurting them seriously. From two directions, I lost to kids.

There is actually way more skill involved in blocking than attacking. Most people can win at chess by being hyperaggressive, but winning a game of the same where you simply counter all advances, and then "oh, checkmate" yea that's a bit harder.

Also, I think there is a learning curve to these swords. They do in fact operate on repulsion (yay, I was right!) but initially all they did was halt the force of the attack. What she's doing now is effectively pushing the attacks back with her own strength.

In all likelihood, the limit to the swords is her limit. As in, if someone were to use a continuous energy pulse (think force lightning from Star Wars), and keep solid pressure going, Bern might have trouble pushing back the attack. No, the swords aren't absorbing the energy, they are pushing stuff back.

These swords probably couldn't smash a wall. They are a defensive not offensive sword.  The reason these swords smashed, the reason the spells reflected?

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AttackReflector

The sword smashed because its own magically enhanced force rebounded.

The spells turned back because of the same.

Because of this, her enemies rather than being "high-level" (it wouldn't make a difference) either use nonmagical tricks (the extending staff may have been just a retractable staff with a taser attached) or have real weapon skill. It's like Inuyasha's Backlash Wave, it probably has a stronger effect the more powerful magic the attack, so ironicallly "high-level" attacks are precisely what opponents will avoid using.

Also, btw, these weren't unrecognizable effects. Bolo Girl used a razor wind effect, the old guy used a flame sphere.

No one cares about "mid level" or "high level", it's just to compare skill and power. Bernadette now easily defeats foes presented as strong. She'll meet much stronger foes lateron. Note this fight was basically S-categorized. What does that tell us about foes that Bernadette will have to actually fight lateron?

And in regards to level: Brian started the thing in this comic with his "class 3 casters" and whatnot to grade magical power. We can talk in regards to abstract concepts.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: ducky_worshiper on April 18, 2015, 12:52:03 pm
I have to agree with the 'overpowered' swords thing. While, yes, it's nice to see Bern win (although did anyone really think she wouldn't?) after involved scenes of rather sad dialogue, I just don't agree that it's satisfying. Bern hasn't done anything different. She hasn't changed. She's done the exact same thing she's done before. Her technique didn't change. Her attitude didn't change. She just blocked, hoped for the best, and the weapons defeated the enemies.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: 9_6 on April 18, 2015, 02:37:18 pm
Something tells me she isn't quite done with those guys yet.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: SAGG on April 18, 2015, 05:19:46 pm
Wow, the sand net went after Ms. Bola, and the Flaming Bola went after Mr. Sand Mage., and they were BOTH too stupefied to react properly.  Yeah, Bern wins. It was so satisfying to see those smug looks disappear. Now comes the aftermath. PLEASE don't do something stupid, Bern. Just accept your A-rank and keep your mouth shut.

I'm wondering if that's possible. With that much power in her hands, hence my prediction that she could take on the warden. Do you really believe that Bern would simply shut up and be a Good Little Girl now? I don't think the warden even knew how powerful those swords were. Thing is, it's a good thing the warden's got Polly all trussed up, because Polly might be the only thing that's going to save her from being attacked by Bern. I don't know if anybody (meaning the guards) are going to be stupid enough to try and restrain Bern after that little show they just observed, if nothing else because they were as shocked as everyone else by what just transpired.  :o Meh. I guess we'll see...  :P
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: SAGG on April 18, 2015, 05:21:35 pm
Something tells me she isn't quite done with those guys yet.

Which guys? The ones she just lambasted are pretty much defeated....
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: UmberIsSexy on April 18, 2015, 09:01:05 pm
I have to agree with the 'overpowered' swords thing. While, yes, it's nice to see Bern win (although did anyone really think she wouldn't?) after involved scenes of rather sad dialogue, I just don't agree that it's satisfying. Bern hasn't done anything different. She hasn't changed. She's done the exact same thing she's done before. Her technique didn't change. Her attitude didn't change. She just blocked, hoped for the best, and the weapons defeated the enemies.

I agree with this, you stated my feelings exactly.

I'm hoping that, like some other people pointed out, this may be a road to more satisfying stuff later.  For one, she's finally killed some folks, which is a new thing for her unless I'm forgetting something from the past. She would have killed Bloody Mary if she could have, but she was a "Monster!"  I wonder if this is going to be a difficult thing for Bern to deal with or if she's going to embrace her new power and suddenly release her massive suppressed bloodlust and craving to distribute death!!!!  No, just kidding. But yeah, this way of winning was so "Bernish" that it's sort of annoying, at least for the moment.

About the swords, does one absorb an effect and pass it over to the other to be released?  If so, that's kind of cool and opens up some more flexible possibilities in terms of their offensive applications.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: 9_6 on April 19, 2015, 02:28:46 am
Something tells me she isn't quite done with those guys yet.

Which guys? The ones she just lambasted are pretty much defeated....
Exactly.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Azure Priest on April 20, 2015, 05:51:49 am
Wow, the sand net went after Ms. Bola, and the Flaming Bola went after Mr. Sand Mage., and they were BOTH too stupefied to react properly.  Yeah, Bern wins. It was so satisfying to see those smug looks disappear. Now comes the aftermath. PLEASE don't do something stupid, Bern. Just accept your A-rank and keep your mouth shut.

I'm wondering if that's possible. With that much power in her hands, hence my prediction that she could take on the warden. Do you really believe that Bern would simply shut up and be a Good Little Girl now? I don't think the warden even knew how powerful those swords were. Thing is, it's a good thing the warden's got Polly all trussed up, because Polly might be the only thing that's going to save her from being attacked by Bern. I don't know if anybody (meaning the guards) are going to be stupid enough to try and restrain Bern after that little show they just observed, if nothing else because they were as shocked as everyone else by what just transpired.  :o Meh. I guess we'll see...  :P

And that would be STUPID, as she's still in jail and has to work off her marks. If she revolts now, all she's going to accomplish is making things worse or getting herself killed. (The guards wouldn't have to restrain her. They could just label her a violent, and extremely dangerous threat and attack her from a distance with crossbows.)

Remember, this arena has been around a long, long time. They have measures in place to deal with riots and armed revolts. The best thing for Bern right now is to clear up her marks, get out of jail and then protest. There's no law against speech in this country.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: sunphoenix on April 20, 2015, 06:46:22 am
Yeah, I agree.. Bern's got no call to just go nuts and violent all of a sudden.  She can clearly defend herself and ...dude she didn't even have to attack those two.. nor can they claim she used lethal force on them.. their OWN attacks did them in as clearly THEY were using leathal force!

She should just fight her battles, pay her marks and walk away... free.. and GREATLY Feared!
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: 9_6 on April 20, 2015, 07:25:51 am
Yeah, I agree.. Bern's got no call to just go nuts and violent all of a sudden.

So frustration is not a thing? Polly getting passed around for 20 days, being in this situation for wanting to help, polly getting dragged into this in the first place, grant now no longer having anything, being denied contact to may. Not frustrating?

Also she is in an environment that requires her to go nutty on enemies so it's "entertaining", don't forget that.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: SAGG on April 20, 2015, 09:24:13 am
Wow, the sand net went after Ms. Bola, and the Flaming Bola went after Mr. Sand Mage., and they were BOTH too stupefied to react properly.  Yeah, Bern wins. It was so satisfying to see those smug looks disappear. Now comes the aftermath. PLEASE don't do something stupid, Bern. Just accept your A-rank and keep your mouth shut.

I'm wondering if that's possible. With that much power in her hands, hence my prediction that she could take on the warden. Do you really believe that Bern would simply shut up and be a Good Little Girl now? I don't think the warden even knew how powerful those swords were. Thing is, it's a good thing the warden's got Polly all trussed up, because Polly might be the only thing that's going to save her from being attacked by Bern. I don't know if anybody (meaning the guards) are going to be stupid enough to try and restrain Bern after that little show they just observed, if nothing else because they were as shocked as everyone else by what just transpired.  :o Meh. I guess we'll see...  :P

And that would be STUPID, as she's still in jail and has to work off her marks. If she revolts now, all she's going to accomplish is making things worse or getting herself killed. (The guards wouldn't have to restrain her. They could just label her a violent, and extremely dangerous threat and attack her from a distance with crossbows.)

Remember, this arena has been around a long, long time. They have measures in place to deal with riots and armed revolts. The best thing for Bern right now is to clear up her marks, get out of jail and then protest. There's no law against speech in this country.

We really don't know how powerful those swords are. For all you know, if the guards shoot arrows at her, the swords would repel the arrows back at the guards. Heck, who knows if one of the guards would panic after seeing the battle and shoot an arrow or two anyway at her, forcing the swords to defend her, (and thus forcing Bern to defend herself), and set in motion chaos?
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: sunphoenix on April 20, 2015, 10:45:56 am
Yeah, I agree.. Bern's got no call to just go nuts and violent all of a sudden.

So frustration is not a thing? Polly getting passed around for 20 days, being in this situation for wanting to help, polly getting dragged into this in the first place, grant now no longer having anything, being denied contact to may. Not frustrating?

Also she is in an environment that requires her to go nutty on enemies so it's "entertaining", don't forget that.

All good points.. admittedly.  We have never seen Bern loose her temper and hurt someone to make a point... she has threatend violence.. and we never got to see.. if when the Healer she threatened decided to 'call her bluff'.. would Bern have really inflicted bodily injury on the healer if she had STILL refused to help heal her father?

Point of note.. the only 'real' beating Bern has ever had {besides the beating the Warden gave her 'and let's face it... Bern's heart was not really in that fight'}.. was the fight with Ex-Sir Derricks.  And YET even after the vicious murderous assault by him and his attempted rape/murder of her.. she did NOT try to kill him when the collar was disenchanted!  Oh she slugged him one true.. but she was not vengeful seeking to inflict evil-for-evil upon him. 

Bern is a gentle woman.. as far as I can tell ...without a hateful or cruel bone in her body.  Though... THIS situation is indeed a Very trying and stressful situation.  It will be interesting to see if the look of shocked-disdain for the crowd's cheering will turn to hate and spite? 

THAT may be the real test of her... to maintain that spirit of gentle purity and nobility not giving into violence and rage in the face of this brutally violent situation!
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on April 20, 2015, 11:00:52 am
Quote
And that would be STUPID, as she's still in jail and has to work off her marks. If she revolts now, all she's going to accomplish is making things worse or getting herself killed. (The guards wouldn't have to restrain her. They could just label her a violent, and extremely dangerous threat and attack her from a distance with crossbows.)

Remember, this arena has been around a long, long time. They have measures in place to deal with riots and armed revolts. The best thing for Bern right now is to clear up her marks, get out of jail and then protest. There's no law against speech in this country.

Given what everyone just witnessed, I don't think that's happening. They may however try to sway public opinion against her, or neglect her (they don't HAVE to feed her).

That said, the public ummmm seems to be on her side. Even if they tried to call her a cheater, or act like a fake win, the audience wouldn't care.

Which brings up an interesting point. I don't know that Bern actually knows what to do with praise.

Everyone has some aspect of themselves that is dark. But for Bern, I think self-hatred is a priority over any hatred of the crowd. As far as the Healer, she was just angry. I think if called on it, she might have been unable to carry out her threat. Not sure though. I don't think I'd like to see her cruel or hateful, but I know what you mean, it's pretty stressful, and she may hurt lots of people without meaning to. Hopefully, she'll be able to live with herself when this is all over.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Azure Priest on April 21, 2015, 05:41:29 am
Bern, this is where you take a bow and accept your rank-up prize.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: SAGG on April 21, 2015, 02:10:14 pm
Bern, this is where you take a bow and accept your rank-up prize.

You hope...  ;D
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on April 22, 2015, 04:39:20 am
Oh I've one thing to add. I was watching Berserk, and was struck by the (seemingly unrealistic) pain tolerance. So I looked up about the berserk culture, and found an interesting video on the wiki (tvtropes of course). It was called the myth of on hit kills.

Basically, the body is a funny thing.  Some people can die from minor bullets. Some people can have freaking sword wounds from shoulder to heart and keep going until they win the fight, okay now I can die.  This is basically the effects of adrenaline. My point?

Well two things, she may not have killed them, so they could live on for awhile. Hopefully not coming back to bully her (hey it'd be great if she earned their respect and later they could stand up for her, but I'm not holding my breath), but that means that she wouldn't have the guilt to live with. This was a deathmatch so unless she was handicapped I think they wouldn't penalize her.
The second thing is, in battle you have to keep your guard up.  Big guy could try something cheap at the last second, either to hurt her, or disqualify her.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: 9_6 on April 22, 2015, 05:09:58 am
Big guy also didn't show what the thing that made her instinctively avoid getting close was.
So this probably isn't over, brion didn't establish that for nothing. Or maybe he did and is just toying with us.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: sunphoenix on April 22, 2015, 09:16:43 pm
Oh gods... please Bern... you've won.. don't kill him!  Don't become ..'like them'.  Just bat him aside... its all you need to do... be gentle.

You'd think he'd realize that all the force that has been applied against her sword.. get turned back on those directing it at her... does he REALLY want to crush his fingers into paste?
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Enkida on April 23, 2015, 05:35:22 am
Why did Beambro stand back up to punch her sword?  Literally, grab and pummel *her sword.*.  Is he related to this guy?

(http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/001/296/morans.jpg)

or maybe this cat?

(http://m.quickmeme.com/img/c5/c52c983e349084a39a95783496089692d05ee21da0fb1c584fff4db622c4a30e.jpg)

or maybe just a cousin of Keanu...

(http://m.quickmeme.com/img/7b/7bad884602aa8ce685a1695b6dbd261008eb80f6407008d96d129f9a2c0b975f.jpg)

Go on, bro, beat that sword down! Show it who's boss!

(http://big.assets.huffingtonpost.com/RYU570.gif)
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: greenglowinggoo on April 23, 2015, 05:49:39 am
Oh gods... please Bern... you've won.. don't kill him!  Don't become ..'like them'.  Just bat him aside... its all you need to do... be gentle.

You'd think he'd realize that all the force that has been applied against her sword.. get turned back on those directing it at her... does he REALLY want to crush his fingers into paste?
I don't think it's a simple force reversal, I bet depending on how the swords are used, they either act as a conduit for, or negate enchantment.  If the swords are hit by the same weapon together, they negate it, hit separately the magic passes from one sword to the other and out again.   When the two people attacked her at once, the attacks went through one sword and out the other.  The fireball went at the slashy man, and the slashes went at the woman who sent the fireball.

When the guy hit her with the the giant bar sword thingie, her swords were together.  Most likely the giant bar sword thingie had an enchantment for magical heavyness and density so when it was negated, it was flimsy and weak and shattered.  His gloves probably have an enchantment for super strength to let him wield the bar thing.  So now he tried to punch the swords (implying super strength was intended to break them), and then tried to rip the gloves out of her hands with super strength and it's negating the strength.

There may also be a difference of how the swords react to enchantment on an item and projectile magic.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Azure Priest on April 23, 2015, 06:36:21 am
Oy. Mr. I-Beam. Give. It. A. Rest. You are grabbing a sword bare-handed. Do you WANT to die?
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: 9_6 on April 23, 2015, 01:05:04 pm
Grabbing a sword isn't as dumb as you'd think.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwuQPfvSSlo
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Enkida on April 23, 2015, 02:26:47 pm
You know, I think I read the action wrong, I guess Beambro was trying to punch Bern at first and she blocked with the sword.

Background: hubby used to train with a European swordfighting reenactment group.  I kind of suspect my moment of "Beambro can't possibly be that stupid" is coming unintentionally from the way the scene is drawn, as in angles the swords are held at / length of the swords / positions of bodies.  Which is all right, drawing fight scenes is damn hard, I just want to point it out.  And, "magic" can explain everything of course, deus ex machina.

Going off of reality, the first huh moment is that it looks like Bern is using European style bastard swords, one in each hand.  Hubs, who is 6'2", can actually wield one ~2kg sword in one hand, but would not personally try to wield two at the same time, or in his words, "not if I want to live.". So either the swords are drawn too long, or they must be enchanted to weigh a lot less.  And before we start on Bernadette's strength, if she's granted magic strength from the swords, see below.  If she's not, her arms are drawn too skinny, flat chested or not.

Panel 3, the angle of her block, if it's a block (and why I thought initially Beambro went straight for her sword with his punch) -  angle & length of sword + angle & length of her arm + we can even see her back = she is not in a planned block, because of the way her wrist has to be bent to hold the sword like that (even though we can't see it).  At that position it absolutely has to be that the sword magically absorbs the force of the impact completely.  If the swords were granting her strength to block in that position, and they're that long, physics says they would bend even slightly under the impact, even if she had the strength to stop it.

Plus, the portrayal of time flow.  If the punch was instantaneously blocked by the sword, then he quickly grabbed said sword to try a second punch, I think panel 2 should have his fist already retreating when the other hand grabs.  Otherwise, it looks like literally, he was aiming to punch the sword while Bernadette, standing passively behind those swords, looks on wonderingly.  "What on earth does this guy think he's doing, doesn't he know we're in the middle of a fight?  I'm right here you know..." ;)

And then the grabbing thing.  European swords were, by the time of the evolution of armour, not made to cut so they weren't all *that* sharp.  But unless Bernadette was really standing passively, they could still damage the fingers without proper protection, which involves the use of metal (chain) gloves.  Deus ex machina magic cloth gloves could explain this part though.

Just on the whole, when the initial shove aside move didn't work, for Beambro to then plant his feet, grab the sword with both hands, squeeze his eyes shut and grunt and shake while trying to make it budge, while Bern just stands limply and eyes him, makes me think he really is a glorified gorilla anyway.  Here is where I yell at *Bern* to remember that she's still in a fight, for Maytag's sake, move yer ass and kick some already.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on April 23, 2015, 04:08:42 pm
Quote
Here is where I yell at *Bern* to remember that she's still in a fight, for Maytag's sake, move yer ass and kick some already.

That's debatable. He's still standing but as far as the crowd is concerned , they're beaten. He's just embarrassing himself against someone who doesn't want to hurt him, and probably could just ball-kick him. I think Bern would prefer it if he conceded, and they both moved on. 

And yes, it looks like it transfers energy into the other sword. When the two swords are crossed, it creates a feedback loop that cancels energy. Given how powerful that sword is, I don't think attacking him directly would be good if she wants to do a no kill principle. It would probably knock him across the room at the very minimum of pressure.

Update since new comic: Yeah... these guys are punks. Bern would prefer them all knocked out and challenging other people, they're stubborn, and won't give up until they hurt her or she seriously hurts them. He managed to bloody her face and that should leave a scab for awhile. She needs like shield effect, that can knock them away without having their blood on her hands. But this might end badly. 
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Azure Priest on April 24, 2015, 05:33:59 am
Oh for pete's sake. What have these guys got to gain from this? If Bern hits them any harder, they're likely to die. Still, they're grabbing her legs, trying to yank the swords out of her hands, and just plain fighting dirty.

What's worse is that while the "death penalty" seems to be lifted for them, there is no guarantee that the same rules apply to Bern. So if she kills them, even accidentally, she will get penalized despite the fact that they just keep overexerting themselves.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: SAGG on April 24, 2015, 06:10:50 am
Whoa, Bern got bloodied. And it looks like Gigantor's going to try a haymaker on Bern! Block with the sword, Bern, block!  :o
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: mittfh on April 25, 2015, 03:41:39 pm
That first punch arrived while she was still processing having her ankle held. She needs to regain focus asap before the second punch has a chance to hit and move out of the way. Sure, she can't move her one ankle, but the rest of her body isn't restrained. Ideally, she'd set him up so he fell on top of ankle-holder, causing him to lose his grip and her to regain the advantage.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on April 26, 2015, 07:28:19 pm
Oh for pete's sake. What have these guys got to gain from this? If Bern hits them any harder, they're likely to die. Still, they're grabbing her legs, trying to yank the swords out of her hands, and just plain fighting dirty.

What's worse is that while the "death penalty" seems to be lifted for them, there is no guarantee that the same rules apply to Bern. So if she kills them, even accidentally, she will get penalized despite the fact that they just keep overexerting themselves.

They are probably promised freedom. But seriously, what freedom is worth another person's life? Seriously.

The thing is, he could not possibly disarm her. Why? Because of the nature of the swords.

When the swords hit the fist, the other sword glowed. In other words, the sword transfers the energy of the attack through the other sword. As in, a fireball shifts to the other sword. If he tries to disarm her, it's his strength being used. She's not lightening it, he's using his own strength against himself.

She needs to knock these two away, and then put a quick nonlethal end to the battle.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Stargoat on April 27, 2015, 08:07:18 am
Oh for pete's sake. What have these guys got to gain from this? If Bern hits them any harder, they're likely to die. Still, they're grabbing her legs, trying to yank the swords out of her hands, and just plain fighting dirty.

What's worse is that while the "death penalty" seems to be lifted for them, there is no guarantee that the same rules apply to Bern. So if she kills them, even accidentally, she will get penalized despite the fact that they just keep overexerting themselves.

They are probably promised freedom. But seriously, what freedom is worth another person's life? Seriously.

The thing is, he could not possibly disarm her. Why? Because of the nature of the swords.

When the swords hit the fist, the other sword glowed. In other words, the sword transfers the energy of the attack through the other sword. As in, a fireball shifts to the other sword. If he tries to disarm her, it's his strength being used. She's not lightening it, he's using his own strength against himself.

She needs to knock these two away, and then put a quick nonlethal end to the battle.

Some folks would argue that freedom was worth about 1.1 million lives or so.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Silverdrake on April 27, 2015, 10:39:18 am
Aaand again, as always, Bernadette is rescued by another person.

She does not grow.
She does not adapt.
She does not face reality.

Someone else is again getting the coals from the fire for her (in the latest round it's first Warden who offers the "chance" without Bernadette doing anything to get (not even speaking of "earn" it), then it's Polly who pledges to pay the price for the "chance", now this time her father who shows up with the Deus-Ex-Machina-Sword).

I'm very interested in where this plot arc is going, so far I have no clue. The message so far merely is "Bernadette is carried through everything by other people".
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: sunphoenix on April 27, 2015, 12:38:31 pm
Aaand again, as always, Bernadette is rescued by another person.

She does not grow.
She does not adapt.
She does not face reality.

Someone else is again getting the coals from the fire for her (in the latest round it's first Warden who offers the "chance" without Bernadette doing anything to get (not even speaking of "earn" it), then it's Polly who pledges to pay the price for the "chance", now this time her father who shows up with the Deus-Ex-Machina-Sword).

I'm very interested in where this plot arc is going, so far I have no clue. The message so far merely is "Bernadette is carried through everything by other people".

...from a certain point of view...

I see it as Bern merely getting a chance to more firmly hold to her convictions.  Its not like the others did not have magic to throw at her either?  Now she has a weapon that allows her to stand for her beliefs. 

You say her swords are a Deus-Ex-Machina... there are several modes of attack that her attackers could have used if they were not just trying to all out kill her!

I-Beam Boy could have struck the ground under her feet or used his great strength to bust up a dust cloud to confuse and throw her off balance.. or even just batted things at her like pieces of the arena and/or ground.

Sandman could likely have made a cloud of sand thick enough to choke the air from her lungs.. parry THAT!  Would have rendered her unconscious but not dead.

Chain and Ball of Flame girl could have used her weapon to entangle Berns feet yes she could have tried to parry that or evade but is the fireball is melting the sand and fusing it to glass at the same time?

But no.. they all went for the obvious hit it harder technique cause they were there to kill her...
I would have gotten the Damn clue when she blocked I-Beam without breaking a sweat that Force was not the answer or way to win!

They ALL had power.. but they had 'jack' for perception!  Power without perception is spiritually useless.. if you don't use it properly all the power in the world just makes you dangerous~ to Yourself!  They just finally met someone who brute force would not work so easily on.  Arrogance and hubris that they could kill this gentle kind-hearted woman who dedicated her life to only fighting when necessary or for the sake of the innocent.

And I'm really not understanding why lots of you are blaming Bern for Polly's actions!  Bern didn't TELL Polly to do ANYTHING.. BERN never even asked Polly for help!  Polly is a grown woman she CHOOSE to be here.. she Chose to keep out-bidding Bern for the 'privilege' of accepting suffering on Bern's behalf.  Bern NEVER asked nor complained nor demanded anything from her.. Polly did all of what she has done on her own.

And for the record.. 'adapting' does not mean compromising your morals... that's called 'selling out'!  A person not willing to stand by their most firmly held beliefs when it really matters... should reconsider.. how 'firmly held' those professed beliefs really are?  What are you willing to die for.. and WAAAAAY more importantly.. What are you will to LIVE for and BY?!?  It's Easy to die for "professed strongly-held beliefs".. you don't have to face the consequences of what happens after.. but LIVING for a belief... NOW THAT takes Devotion and a firm faith in what you stand for!

Don't get me wrong.. I commend Polly on her devotion ... I wish everyone had friends who would go to the wall for them like that!
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on April 27, 2015, 05:26:54 pm
Aaand again, as always, Bernadette is rescued by another person.

She does not grow.
She does not adapt.
She does not face reality.

Someone else is again getting the coals from the fire for her (in the latest round it's first Warden who offers the "chance" without Bernadette doing anything to get (not even speaking of "earn" it), then it's Polly who pledges to pay the price for the "chance", now this time her father who shows up with the Deus-Ex-Machina-Sword).

I'm very interested in where this plot arc is going, so far I have no clue. The message so far merely is "Bernadette is carried through everything by other people".

You seem to have a very narrow idea of what reality is, then.  It is not simply your dog eat dog programming, it's all of this. And people can make whatever choices in life they wish.

As for the latter. All of us owes our lives to other people. Bern is honest about it. I mean, did you get that job without the teachers who taught you? You can work as hard as you with, but unless you have people to buy food and clothes from, the only way to not be naked is to sew your own. We can talk about "strength" and "independence" but it's crap. We owe our lives to our parents, we owe our happiness to our friends who support our dreams, we owe our jobs to our employers or clients. If you think you're perfect by yourself, you are kidding yourself.

Bern doesn't need to grow according to your standards. She is growing according to hers.

She doesn't need to adapt according to this place. It's a hellhole, if you get used to it, you're doing it wrong.

And yes, The Person Above Me. It is good to have friends. They make even a crappy place livable. Friends are people you can count on when you're in need, and you know they'll take your call.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Brion Foulke on April 27, 2015, 11:50:47 pm
then it's Polly who pledges to pay the price for the "chance", now this time her father who shows up with the Deus-Ex-Machina-Sword).

Sorry, I don't mean to pick on you.  But don't you think this is kind of a silly comment?  How are the swords a "Dues-Ex-Machina" when they've been in the comic since Book 3, and it's been stated all along that they have some sort of power?  Sure, they are powerful, perhaps overpowered (although I don't think so, "overpowered" is relative to the strength of her foes.)  But really, it's not like they just appeared out of thin air in this chapter.  Jeez.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: SAGG on April 28, 2015, 01:42:53 am
Bern doesn't want to be like them! Does that mean she'll try to escape with Polly? Because if she stays, she WILL become like them!
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on April 28, 2015, 04:34:20 am
Or she's gonna get out by asking the warden if now that she's A Rank to transfer the rest of her marks to prison. Being fugitive means she'd be chased and such. That said she could probably ask the warden to challenge her fpr the rest of her marks, and given both her new popularity and her power he might be pressured to accept. If some of the strongest got beaten like chumps, it may be better for him in the long run. After a few rounds or her doing mostly guarding, he'd probably transfer her anyway if only to not have severed limbs all over the place.

The sword is not a deus ex machina. It isn't invincible and didn't come out of nowhere.  There are clearly defined traits of the sword, making it likely only as strong as her enemies attacks. If she just swings first, it's a normal sword, as we saw in the fight versus the staff guy. And its of no use if people outflank her and she can't block.

Magical items have traits that doesn't mean they are invincible. I have magical stones in a D&D campaign. They are overpowered, but by no means invincible. They give sorta pack tactics and creation once a day. I set them up in the story as shards of a larger stone which controlled reality. It has drawbacks, like  not being able to work if the party member is hit by a psychic attack (this turn) or while the target is affected by rage, insanity, or fear. It also only activates if the party takes advantage of it, because I seldom remember to apply it.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Azure Priest on April 28, 2015, 06:19:59 am
Bern, this would be a good time to say "STAY DOWN! Keep going the way you are and you WILL DIE as a direct result of your actions. Give up now, and you will get a fight another day. Nothing the Arena has promised you is worth you throwing your lives away."
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: mittfh on April 28, 2015, 01:45:10 pm
The way I see it, once this fight is over, it will (a) earn her 'A' rank status, (b) pay a few marks off her sentence, and perhaps crucially (c) enable Warden to put her into battles against the Colesseum's equivalent of Boring Invincible Heroes - after all, they're about 90% offensive measures, while Bern's about 90% defensive measures. It's possible Warden will notice that such a scenario could keep both happy - Bern will be playing by the rules and actively engaged in battles, but she'll still be sticking to her principles and not actively beating them up - rather letting her blades cause their attacks to rebound.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: SAGG on April 28, 2015, 08:27:20 pm
Escape. With Polly. Everyone too scared and stunned to stop the suddenly strong "weakling"... ;D
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: IronSoul on April 29, 2015, 11:41:56 pm
Escape. With Polly. Everyone too scared and stunned to stop the suddenly strong "weakling"... ;D

No.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: SAGG on April 30, 2015, 12:33:28 am
Escape. With Polly. Everyone too scared and stunned to stop the suddenly strong "weakling"... ;D

No.
Yes. She stays, she'll end up like them, no matter how much she says she doesn't--or, she'll have to adapt. And I'll modify my stance: why shouldn't  Bern bide her time, THEN escape with Polly? Do you  think she'll be able to keep her integrity? Do any of you? Look at her fallen foes. Look at the carnage. The temptation would be beyond belief for her to be like THEM.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on April 30, 2015, 03:57:34 am
Unfortunately, the fact of the matter is, not only is she probably playing into their hands (firm resolve is probably where most of these thugs started) but there is nowhere she can go. What, you think leaving the scene will get them to leave her alone? No, they'd send enforcers after her to get her back. And if raw force failed, they might use trickery. Make her think she's safe but they bring the colosseum to her.

I'm not advocating she suck it up and put up with this. I'm saying she request to be taken off fighting duty. It may take a few more of these, but  ironically prison might be her way out. She is a hard worker, and would rather have done that, except Polly thought this was an easy fix. I don't blame Polly though.

The sad truth is that while she probably has leverage and warden could be challenged the same isn't true of Polly. Hell, Bern could probably even challenge the Warden for her freedom (the warden seems smarter than those chumps and might put up a fight). Actually this is what she should do, forgo prison and simply wager her freedom with the warden to get out of here fast. This would not be escaping but winning fair and square.

Unfortunately, Polly has a number of men and women to satisfy, plus more fighting. She'll have to leave Polly behind, at least temporarily in order to see Maytag.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Azure Priest on April 30, 2015, 05:28:01 am
Missing an arm is not enough for Mr. I-beam. He's still going. He must want to die.

Note: Escape is not an option. If Bern escapes, with Polly or without, and the enforcers DON'T, or can't get her, the Phalanx will. She will forever be known as a dangerous, and violent criminal with a propensity for escaping duly authorized punishment.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: sunphoenix on April 30, 2015, 05:46:53 am
Unfortunately, the fact of the matter is, not only is she probably playing into their hands (firm resolve is probably where most of these thugs started) but there is nowhere she can go. What, you think leaving the scene will get them to leave her alone? No, they'd send enforcers after her to get her back. And if raw force failed, they might use trickery. Make her think she's safe but they bring the colosseum to her.

I'm not advocating she suck it up and put up with this. I'm saying she request to be taken off fighting duty. It may take a few more of these, but  ironically prison might be her way out. She is a hard worker, and would rather have done that, except Polly thought this was an easy fix. I don't blame Polly though.

The sad truth is that while she probably has leverage and warden could be challenged the same isn't true of Polly. Hell, Bern could probably even challenge the Warden for her freedom (the warden seems smarter than those chumps and might put up a fight). Actually this is what she should do, forgo prison and simply wager her freedom with the warden to get out of here fast. This would not be escaping but winning fair and square.

Unfortunately, Polly has a number of men and women to satisfy, plus more fighting. She'll have to leave Polly behind, at least temporarily in order to see Maytag.

Nah.  I Believe in Bernadette.. I believe she can make a stand for her beliefs and hold true to them!  She has not killed ANYONE yet... those injured 'can' have those injuries healed with magic.

Yes, this will be a hard road to go.. walking through all the carnage and not being part of it.. there is no doubt it will change Bernadette.. but not the way I think you see it.  I believe it will make her stronger... Even MORE dedicated to her firm beliefs.

... to all you folks complaining about no growth in her character.. well here it is!
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Silverdrake on April 30, 2015, 07:16:19 am
Aaand again, as always, Bernadette is rescued by another person.

She does not grow.
She does not adapt.
She does not face reality.

Someone else is again getting the coals from the fire for her (in the latest round it's first Warden who offers the "chance" without Bernadette doing anything to get (not even speaking of "earn" it), then it's Polly who pledges to pay the price for the "chance", now this time her father who shows up with the Deus-Ex-Machina-Sword).

I'm very interested in where this plot arc is going, so far I have no clue. The message so far merely is "Bernadette is carried through everything by other people".

You seem to have a very narrow idea of what reality is, then.

This is where I abandoned the idea I might want to reply to your post.

Life is about change and adaption. The question is according to what values do you do that and this is where it gets really tricky. The problem is that Bernadette refuses to acknowledge that life is about adaption, not according to the values the arena wants or to Pollys or to Warden's or whatever, she refused to acknowledge that at all.

And her strategy is not successful, life destroys Bernadette due to this. Or, it does not destroy it because there are always external sources that pay the prices for her stance. In this way and very meanly formulated: Bernadette is a leech, she is a vampire that lives of the sacrifice of others.

No one demands she debases herself but she maintains her values at the cost of others covering her ass. Over and over again. She's like a child who thinks her way of living is working and ok but neglects that is only because her parents are constantly cleaning up behind her.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: monimoni on April 30, 2015, 12:37:13 pm
Wow I don't see it like that at all. Let's back up a bit. Bernadette was going to take either option A and B, mutilating herself or whoring herself instead of picking the "easy" option C - only not to torture and kill somebody else. It was Polly who got in the way, nobody asked her to do that - and she made it so that it was impossible for Bernadette to outbid her.

Now about her father... Bernadette is in this crap in the first place because she sacrificed her own freedom to save her father's life. She went to this place for the sword in the first place. I think it is more than perfectly square that her father showed up with the swords.
I really don't see how Bernadette is being a leech... 
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: sunphoenix on April 30, 2015, 01:34:09 pm
Wow I don't see it like that at all. Let's back up a bit. Bernadette was going to take either option A and B, mutilating herself or whoring herself instead of picking the "easy" option C - only not to torture and kill somebody else. It was Polly who got in the way, nobody asked her to do that - and she made it so that it was impossible for Bernadette to outbid her.

Now about her father... Bernadette is in this crap in the first place because she sacrificed her own freedom to save her father's life. She went to this place for the sword in the first place. I think it is more than perfectly square that her father showed up with the swords.
I really don't see how Bernadette is being a leech...

{Shrug}...

'Haters... gonna hate.'

But seriously, we simply have a difference of opinions on the matter.  'From a certain point of view...', ANYTHING Bernadette does or does not do.. can be misconstrued or twisted to fit any criticism .. if that is all one WANTS to see. 

The same can be said for those who approve of her actions... like me, cause she's a hottie, red-head, bad ass...! :)

So.. let's just agree to disagree on this... and leave it at that.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: monimoni on May 01, 2015, 02:22:16 am
Actually to be honest I am not sure what the point of Polly's intervention was, and where that's going. This is where I don't agree with the "Bern is a leech" idea. She was never a leech... there's just this character Polly, making her look like that. If Warden would've ignored Polly, Bern had the chance to show the integrity she talks about.. that would've been a real test for her. But I guess we will soon find out.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on May 01, 2015, 05:23:45 am
Ignore this troll. Supposedly Bern is a leech for having friends.

This unfortunately reflects something I've felt about myself all my life, that because I was scraping by, and needed food stamps, or that because I was close to my family versus being some full-time businessperson, that I was doing something inferior. But you know what? It's time to stop hating people for not  conforming to your narrow idea of success. In this world, there are people who make a living at a job outside their house. There are also people like authors and eBay sellers, that make money at their home. There are also people who make money through sex trade, not just through prostitution but through legal dating for pay sites. There are people like the Travelers (gypsies) who have no fixed home. There are religious groups that go door to door.

There are many realities of life. That Bern is somehow not facing reality because she doesn't sell out to your opinion of life... Of course, she needs to stop playing around and accept that swords can't block magic. Wonderful idea. Maybe you'd like to apologize when she gets burnt to a cinder because she refused to draw her swords because reality is that people compete and magic swords aren't real. Uhhh you're confusing reality show with reality. In a reality show, the winner of a contest wins a truck, and nobody else is considered. In reality, the loser of the contest might use their own methods to get a truck.

Now I'm gonna talk about change and growth. Bern has clearly been developing and growing through this entire battle. But because she hasn't adapted to this fighting you are unhappy. Not all change is desirable. You think it would be awesome to see her go all bloodthirsty but this isn't who she is, and this place is sick. Normal people fight to survive. Crazed people ruthlessly fight even people who are not a threat to them, like a big lawyer coming down hard on some small rural entrepreneur because country people don't deserve to be successful. She is making it work, so you rule it's a "cheat" because she couldn't possibly be successful without doing whatever method you think is the only approved one. Except she did. And she won. Give it a rest already.

In terms of change being bad, we routinely think being at the top of a corporate ladder is the  ideal of success. Is it? We have a small businessman who has work-life balance. He has the girl, he has a steady job, and he has friends and hobbies. There's an offer to go to the city where he would leave all of that behind for more money in the short term (but the job is highly competitive and will probably fire him later) so I assume as part growth and change he should naturally take the job according to you.

Bern is not a vampire or a leech. She is a decent person trying to remain a decent person in a climate that is void of decent people (like a person who believes in justice being surrounded by crooked lawyers).
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: SAGG on May 01, 2015, 01:49:22 pm
Okay, now why does this guy keep coming at Bern? Is it because he'll die if he doesn't? Is he fighting for a beloved relative who will die if he doesn't? Is it because of his warrior pride? Will he go down to Bern's current rank if he surrenders? And I don't like Bern's statement, which scares the bejibbens out of me!  :P Makes me wonder if this guy doesn't have something up his sleeve to pull out an impossible victory...?
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on May 01, 2015, 03:04:31 pm
I admire his persistence. However, I wish he'd leave her alone.

Whatever he's been promised or threatened with, I think I'd rather see her help him with it, than put him down like a rabid dog or something.

Everyone deserves their dreams, including him. It is sick that these two have to compete to the death for not even what they want, but what they need.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Silverdrake on May 02, 2015, 03:06:12 am
You people are unbelievable. There's a disagreement between us how to see the character Bernadette and because it's disagreement it's down to "trolling" and "haters gonna hate". There seems to be an excessive assumption the world works in "Black and White": I don't dislike the character Bernadette, I don't hate her. She is a great character, she is just doing things here where I disagree to what you think. Reducing what I wrote to "she is a leech because she has friends" is something I consider unworthy to answer.

So, as long as you agree Bernadette is "awesome in all regards" you can even bluntly state it is "because she is a female, red-headed hottie" besides any actual reasons or psycological interpretations or character interpretations within the scope of the story. You have your stance because all the wrong reasons, which, to me, invalidates this stances completely.

Yeah, think of me as trolling or hating. I thought this was a smart forum but apparently it's just the same male "Hot Chicks are awesome because they are hot chicks" you're finding everywhere on the internet. I'll go on enjoying Flipside (as well as Bernadette and her character arc)... you are free to drool because she's drawn scantly clothed and dismiss any disagreement with your assessment as "trolling"... Flipside is smarter than that and I had hoped the readers drawn to it would be as well. I admit I was wrong in at least a few cases.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Silverdrake on May 02, 2015, 03:16:10 am
Ignore this troll. Supposedly Bern is a leech for having friends.

I already stated this was unworthy of an answer.

Quote
Now I'm gonna talk about change and growth. Bern has clearly been developing and growing through this entire battle. But because she hasn't adapted to this fighting you are unhappy. Not all change is desirable. You think it would be awesome to see her go all bloodthirsty but this isn't who she is, and this place is sick.

Not my assessment is what is the issue here, it is your interpretation of what I want. This is not what I want and I never stated so. You form quick opinions on what people want based on your assumptions what they want without seeing you've went too far down the road and are plain wrong. The rest of your post falls in the same category.

Quote
In terms of change being bad, we routinely think being at the top of a corporate ladder is the  ideal of success. Is it?

I don't. You're assumption to be able to and eagerness to lecture me on this is what drives you into the wall in regards to this debate.

Quote
Bern is not a vampire or a leech. She is a decent person trying to remain a decent person in a climate that is void of decent people (like a person who believes in justice being surrounded by crooked lawyers).

She is a very decent person, but as I wrote above she is not seeing the reality of what profession she took on. She thinks she can get through with this by staying unbent, but that is a wrong assumption and only leads to others fetching the coals from her fire (without her having asked for that, though). Do I want her to be brutal, merciless, a crazy killer? I already said what I think of that.
Bernadette is ready to die for her believes and this is what she is aiming for here. It is commendable she is willing to go this far but my impression is not that she made that conscious decision.
My impression is that her stance is she'd rather die than to adapt to the arena (which is fine and the moral high ground) but this has not reached her conscious thoughts and she still maintains the illusion that "staying unbent" is a path that leads her through the arena (or her life). She is wrong in regards to that and it is others around her who enable her to maintain this high ground.
If she'd actively life "I rather die than adept, Polly, please, let me do this" it was different.
But she's willing to die - and pull everyone with her. Not because she is a bad person or does it on purpose, but because she has not realised that, in effect, that is what she is doing.

Now, come on, call me a troll and hater... only because I disagree on what to make of Bernadettes stance here.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Brion Foulke on May 02, 2015, 03:06:52 pm
Here's an example of some things I'd like you to not do in this forum:

Don't call people names like "troll" just because they disagree with you. (bulmabriefs144)

Don't antagonize people with posts like "this response is not worthy if a reply."  (Silverdrake)

It's okay to have passionate opinions, just be careful not to attack other forum goers.  And if you feel attacked, PM me about it or just turn the other cheek, rather than escalating things in the forum.  Thanks, I would appreciate it.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Azure Priest on May 02, 2015, 07:04:55 pm
Unless Mr. I-Beam's been promised his freedom by beating Bern to death, I'm having a hard time seeing how he can justify going to such lengths to try and beat her down. Further, he's not really doing it in an intelligent or rational manner. He's just panicking and trying all sorts of random stuff to see what works.

He's lost. It would be better for everyone if he puts his weapon down and surrenders. He keeps going like this, he WILL die, and Bern will most likely be punished for it.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Enkida on May 04, 2015, 03:11:54 am
Hmm.  Just for the record, I love Bernadette.  I think she's a hottie.  Although her stance on nude artwork rubs me the wrong way, of all the characters in this comic (excepting perhaps Crest, I have to think about that) her strict moral compass is exactly the reason I like her the most.  I know this makes me in a minority of the (vocal) readership, as most fans seem to think of Maytag and her swinging fanservice lifestyle as the be-all-end-all of cool, flexible behaviour.  I do in fact think of these two ladies as opposite ends of a pole, and yet they still love one another, which for me is a very positive message and sort of the meta-point of this comic since Book 0 - why I still read it.

I wanted to establish that as background so you can have some context when I say this:

I find myself agreeing with Silverdrake on Bernadette's character development.  Given what we know of her so far, my biggest surprise on this whole arc is what a wet towel she's been, especially before it led to the point of actual fighting in the arena.  Her fighting style is based on predicting and blocking the movements of others.  That she couldn't do this psychologically at all since arriving in - where is it? - Marvallo? - and meeting up with Polly has me shaking my head.  The Bernadette established in this comic would have kicked Polly's ass - literally, to shut her up - and gotten her eye removed, before letting things escalate to this point.  Yes, I know we need to see the swords in action.  But as a Bernadette fan, I am still left unsatisfied with her choices and behaviour.

What happened to this woman? I don't know where she went.

(http://s30.postimg.org/p11o66w41/image.jpg)
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on May 04, 2015, 04:58:35 am
(Post removed by moderator.  I said I wanted name calling to stop, which includes justifying it.  Unless you're posting a straight apology, please don't bring it up anymore.)
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Brion Foulke on May 04, 2015, 10:12:07 am
That's fair, Enkida.  I think that you are just seeing her character differently than how I see her as the writer.  You were given the impression that she was tough as steel, and while I do think she is tough I also think that she has a bit of weakness on the inside.  I think this gives her more humanity.  That's not to say that she won't overcome problems, but it seems more natural for it to be a struggle. 
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Pinkk on May 04, 2015, 10:34:31 am
I admire his persistence. However, I wish he'd leave her alone.

Whatever he's been promised or threatened with, I think I'd rather see her help him with it, than put him down like a rabid dog or something.

Everyone deserves their dreams, including him. It is sick that these two have to compete to the death for not even what they want, but what they need.

Why would you assume he deserves his dreams?  He is in prison and most likely not for the same reason as Bern.

Now they could just let them sit in prison and rot all day, but they're a very profit passed society.  You can't even get directions without paying a fee.  So far, no evidence seems to support the three Bern went up against were nothing more than real criminals committing crimes against innocent people.

Bern obviously believes people should do good for goods sake.  It's why she's in prison.  She forced someone to do something they didn't want to do, because Bern wanted them saved but didn't have the money to get her father the medical attention.

With Bern, there's at least a moral grey area.  With the three other combatants, there could be, but likely less so.  The prison is probably very much filled with very bad people.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on May 04, 2015, 11:27:46 am
(Fair enough. I don't really want to talk to him anyway, even to apologize)

I would assume people deserve their dreams because I have the experience of doing desperate things to achieve one's dreams. Having tried to do prostitution to make ends meet (ironically enough, it was around the time that Bern got her choices; not a prostitute now, it took one time and I was like "nope"), I know that some people do very extreme stuff to try to make their dreams happen. Theft, murder, whatever. I'm not qualified to judge them.

Also because of Once Upon A Time where the villains are less outright evil, and more pathetic and selfish.

In all likelihood, there is very little chance that these people were paragons of virtue. But we cannot assume anything about them without knowing the full story.

-Old man may have gotten teased on too many times because of his age.
-The girl may have grown up in a brothel, and volunteered for this for money (I'm sure some gladiators are paid, if they don't have any marks left, and want to stay)
-The guy could be disgraced military. Or maybe he caught his wife sleeping with someone, and cut them in half.

We don't think they are saints, but dehumanization is how people manage to easily kill one another. There's many sides to a story.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: SAGG on May 04, 2015, 11:33:52 am
Apparently, it IS about warrior pride, one of my guesses. Then again. I guess I'd do the same if I knew I were losing to someone who's supposed to be at the bottom of the barrel, while I'm at the top of the heap. It's--embarrassing and humiliating.  :P It's like Podunk State coming into Tuscaloosa and beating Alabama in college football, and doing it soundly. That's this...  ;D
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on May 04, 2015, 11:38:22 am
Yeah, and the really funny thing is, Bern doesn't appear to have pride, warrior or otherwise.  ;D She just fights to stay alive, and defend others.

So it's kinda a contest between big time A/S rank guy who can't let it go that she's beating him, and small time Bern who just wants to go home and doesn't really care if she wins or loses.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Pinkk on May 04, 2015, 09:57:19 pm
Yeah, and the really funny thing is, Bern doesn't appear to have pride, warrior or otherwise.  ;D She just fights to stay alive, and defend others.

So it's kinda a contest between big time A/S rank guy who can't let it go that she's beating him, and small time Bern who just wants to go home and doesn't really care if she wins or loses.

Bern's not a warrior.  She's a knight.  A protector.  Knight doesn't equal warrior. 
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: mittfh on May 04, 2015, 11:46:08 pm
I wonder if the rules can recognise a stalemate? He's pretty much lost his girder!sword, so if he continues it's going to be his bare hands versus Bern's blades. I suppose if push came to shove, she could whack him on the forehead with the broadside of the swords and knock him out, while leaving him otherwise uninjured.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Azure Priest on May 05, 2015, 05:31:14 am
What culture does he come from? There are cultures where a Warrior's pride is worth dying for. (Because if you surrender, and let yourself be taken captive by the enemy, your people will kill you as a traitor.) Vikings, some Scot clans, certain Asian countries, etc have or have had this mindset.

It could well be that he comes from such a culture, visited the country, was given some kind of insult to his heritage which requires answer by force, and had to be beat down before being arrested.

That's the kind of vibe I read from him now.

If none of the above is true, he's just a fracking idiot making up excuses as to why he wants to die fighting.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Enkida on May 05, 2015, 11:36:01 am
I think that you are just seeing her character differently than how I see her as the writer.  You were given the impression that she was tough as steel, and while I do think she is tough I also think that she has a bit of weakness on the inside.  I think this gives her more humanity.  That's not to say that she won't overcome problems, but it seems more natural for it to be a struggle.

See, while I agree that character growth comes from a struggle, I felt you passed over the ripest opportunity for her personal character growth - the part where she faces her struggles with her black and white stance on fidelity and temptation.  That is, her relationship, or lack thereof, with Polly, despite her attraction.  Fighting is all good and well, but that was the more interesting struggle for me, the mental one.

To show it's all good anyhow I did some fanart, LOL.  Please don't laugh too hard, I haven't drawn comic art since 4 or 5 years now  :-X

(http://orig14.deviantart.net/87ce/f/2015/125/d/3/bern_polly_by_enkida-d8s9m68.jpg)

wanted more of that please, and not just for fanservice ;)
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Pinkk on May 05, 2015, 09:46:56 pm
Here's hoping to not see Bern cheat.  It's actually refreshing to see a character who doesn't cheat and remains faithful.  :p  It's what I love about Bern.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Enkida on May 06, 2015, 02:03:10 am
Actually, I wouldn't want to see her cheat, either. But I do want to see her facing her problem of seeing things in absolute black and whites.  Nude art must be something sexual (and therefore bad?!).  Bloody Mary hurt someone I cared about, so she must be a Monster.  I'd have to re-read to see what she thinks of cheating - I kind of remember her saying she knew about Maytag cheating on her but stayed with her anyway, during Suspira's bitchy spell reveal moment - but I still get a sense of Bernadette's character being very righteously judgemental sometimes, in a bad way.  I like that she's committed to being a "good person" by however she defines that standard.  There seem to be too few of those in this comic, of the main characters who seem to give off the vibe of wanting to actively be "good guys" I count Bernadette and Crest.  I thought rejecting her dream of becoming a knight to stay with Maytag was a real step in the direction of character growth, away from those judgemental tendencies.  But I haven't seen that sort of growth re: her attitude towards sexuality.  It's complicated I guess - I want to see Bernadette becoming more open-minded and forgiving, but I don't want to see her lose her core values or suddenly be down with engaging in a threesome or whatever.

I don't see that sort of interesting personal growth happening in this arena arc.  If anything, the whole "I can't bend or break!" declaration while Polly was going to the wall for her over there really annoys me.  As I said before, why wasn't she like that in the cell?  It's almost hypocritical to find her resolve now.  When she was fighting Elvis in that enchanted castle, she was ready to give up and die (and let Maytag and the others die too) because her fighting style didn't work, rather than lower her standards and use other people as meatshields to win.  Here, she's a different person.  All she does is lose a little sleep, shed a few guilty tears and get saved by her dad's magic swords, which was apparently all it took to recover her confidence.  I haven't even got the sense that she's taking into account Polly's human shielding, as if she forgot about all of that now that she has the swords.   Of course this chapter isn't over yet, so hopefully I will be eating my words later on.  But I'm still not a happy camper yet.  :P
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Brion Foulke on May 06, 2015, 02:06:38 am
See, while I agree that character growth comes from a struggle, I felt you passed over the ripest opportunity for her personal character growth - the part where she faces her struggles with her black and white stance on fidelity and temptation.  That is, her relationship, or lack thereof, with Polly, despite her attraction.  Fighting is all good and well, but that was the more interesting struggle for me, the mental one.

That's a bit premature.  Bernadette is far from done in her dealings with Polly.  Or at least, as long as I don't kill Polly off!  (Can't have you thinking I'm predictable!)  Those struggles with fidelity and temptation may or may not happen in the future.

I like the fan art a lot!  Could you email that to me, so that I will be reminded to put that in the gallery?
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on May 06, 2015, 05:01:17 am
Yeah, and the really funny thing is, Bern doesn't appear to have pride, warrior or otherwise.  ;D She just fights to stay alive, and defend others.

So it's kinda a contest between big time A/S rank guy who can't let it go that she's beating him, and small time Bern who just wants to go home and doesn't really care if she wins or loses.

Bern's not a warrior.  She's a knight.  A protector.  Knight doesn't equal warrior.

I said that. In my earlier post (that mods saw fit to collapse rather than simply asking me to change)1.

Bern is a knight, so she's not suited for this life. So yea, she doesn't care about warrior pride. And doesn't need to adapt.

As to the other post, I think he's just making up excuses. Swallow your pride, say "okay, it's not really working" and call it a day.

I think the whole "cheat/don't cheat" thing is an example of the very black and white morality that we are criticizing her for. She should talk to Maytag, and they should face this together. Maybe Maytag is okay with an exclusive deal, maybe it'll break the thing up (tad hypocritical), maybe it would be a reason to reconsider the stance on an open relationship. Their love is still developing and growing, and it might be something they can discuss.

I uh might need to ask copyright permission so that I can print this picture out. And place it by my bed. And uhhhh....
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Stargoat on May 06, 2015, 07:10:41 am
Nude art must be something sexual (and therefore bad?!).

The first rule of the secret Flipside page is you do not talk about the secret Flipside page.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Enkida on May 06, 2015, 10:26:59 am
The first rule of the secret Flipside page is you do not talk about the secret Flipside page.

... or contribute to it.
 :-X  ::)  :o  ;D ;D ;D


oh, and quite seriously - fanart is always a creative commons license for me. Take it and do with it what you will, just either credit me as the artist in public or don't tell me what you do with it in private...   :-[ .  If anyone wants to modify a Flipside fanart picture (like colour it or whatever) go right on ahead, you don't need my permission for that either.  #usedtolegaldisclaimers

also, nude Maytag and Polly. Why is there not more Polly fanart.  Why is there not more nude Polly fanart.  Get to work people.
http://flipside.keenspot.com/forum/index.php?topic=9059
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Azure Priest on May 07, 2015, 05:21:33 am
Ooh, now that's a smart move. Jumping over Bern and landing a blow to the back of her head. Has to be a bit costly in terms of stamina though. Still, it's not easy to counter and Bern's magic-eating swords can't block back there, not with ease anyway.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: mittfh on May 07, 2015, 02:01:40 pm
So now we learn he was a pole vault champion several years ago...
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Chnmmr on May 08, 2015, 03:11:30 am
Aaaaaaaaaaaamd there goes one of her ankles, crushed o_O
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: SAGG on May 08, 2015, 03:42:03 am
Aaaaaaaaaaaamd there goes one of her ankles, crushed o_O

No, she seems to have blocked the blow with one of her swords. Otherwise, she would have screamed in agony...
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on May 08, 2015, 04:46:25 am
Bern is actually way more black and white than I am. I'm just incredibly stubborn and stuff I disagree with, I really really hate. Not so much because it's wrong but because it's wrong for me. Which frankly, is all something needs to be to reject it anyway.  The reason Bloody Mary is a monster not because she hurt someone she cared about. It's because of her fighting style. Bern explained this. Humans use weapons. Monsters use teeth and claws. She wasnt calling her a "monster" she was stating a fact, her blade deals with beasts differently.  Because they have different physiology and cutting one up is a bit more okay.

Yes bern is "off balance" (pffft), but she's loads cooler than the knight with the eyepiece. She doesn't tend to make judgement calls on the rest of humanity, her morality seems strictly self centered. As in, aside from wanting exclusive relationship, May could go have orgies, but she sits that out. Which is precisely why she'd get jealous, she doesn't give herself the same rights as she gives others.

In terms of Polly, I don't think she has had time to look around, you know?  Not when some guy is attacking and won't let you have a moments peace to just look around and see stuff. She won't bend and break because this situation is actively encouraging her to do stuff unpleasant, like murder.

Aversion to murder does not have to be a black and white mentality. You could run into people who say murder is wrong "except" if they rape my daughter. But there you go. That's making exceptions. To me, the idea of someone making me into something I'mnot, yea it makes me throw up inside my mouth. And if their intent were to make me into some violent killer, it would not be "rigid" morality to want to stand firm against this crap, it would be something baser like disgust. I'm not sinking to this level, even if they manage to kill me. She has to find a good "disable all" technique that simply takes him out of the battle without letal force. Or just kill his sword and punch him out.

Actually, I wouldn't want to see her cheat, either. But I do want to see her facing her problem of seeing things in absolute black and whites.  Nude art must be something sexual (and therefore bad?!).  Bloody Mary hurt someone I cared about, so she must be a Monster.  I'd have to re-read to see what she thinks of cheating - I kind of remember her saying she knew about Maytag cheating on her but stayed with her anyway, during Suspira's bitchy spell reveal moment - but I still get a sense of Bernadette's character being very righteously judgemental sometimes, in a bad way.  I like that she's committed to being a "good person" by however she defines that standard.  There seem to be too few of those in this comic, of the main characters who seem to give off the vibe of wanting to actively be "good guys" I count Bernadette and Crest.  I thought rejecting her dream of becoming a knight to stay with Maytag was a real step in the direction of character growth, away from those judgemental tendencies.  But I haven't seen that sort of growth re: her attitude towards sexuality.  It's complicated I guess - I want to see Bernadette becoming more open-minded and forgiving, but I don't want to see her lose her core values or suddenly be down with engaging in a threesome or whatever.

I don't see that sort of interesting personal growth happening in this arena arc.  If anything, the whole "I can't bend or break!" declaration while Polly was going to the wall for her over there really annoys me.  As I said before, why wasn't she like that in the cell?  It's almost hypocritical to find her resolve now.  When she was fighting Elvis in that enchanted castle, she was ready to give up and die (and let Maytag and the others die too) because her fighting style didn't work, rather than lower her standards and use other people as meatshields to win.  Here, she's a different person.  All she does is lose a little sleep, shed a few guilty tears and get saved by her dad's magic swords, which was apparently all it took to recover her confidence.  I haven't even got the sense that she's taking into account Polly's human shielding, as if she forgot about all of that now that she has the swords.   Of course this chapter isn't over yet, so hopefully I will be eating my words later on.  But I'm still not a happy camper yet.  :P

You totally need to sing this song (from the Sleepaway Camp series)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vjJjlBduQk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vjJjlBduQk)

As I see it, Bern has a few perfectly viable nonlethal options. I dunno why this fight is dragging on so long, besides that she's off her game.


All of these will end the battle without making him die afterwards.

Yeah, I appreciate keeping one's ethics. But she needs to stop dragging her feet and end this before he forces her to do something rash.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: 9_6 on May 09, 2015, 03:31:45 am
I guess next limbs will come off and flipside will go all monty python black knight on us.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Azure Priest on May 09, 2015, 04:41:21 am
I guess next limbs will come off and flipside will go all monty python black knight on us.

Bit late for that. Both Mr. I-Beam and Yo-yo girl lost an arm already.

As for the "murder is wrong" thing. Murder is ALWAYS wrong. No exceptions. The death penalty is NOT murder. It is the taking of a guilty criminal's life as punishment for a specific crime, and all the way back to the code of Hamurabi, rape is an offense that warrants the death penalty. Even the second commandment specifically allows for the death penalty. "He who sheds innocent blood shall be slain by human hands."

The death penalty requires a little something called "due process." That is, bringing forth evidence, witnesses and delivering judgement from a higher power. A man running up and killing someone because he THINKS (or "knows") a guy raped his daughter would be homicide, a lesser form of murder, and could itself be punishable by death.

Self-defense is not murder. Someone breaks into your house, he's not there to deliver a check from Ed Mc Mahon. He's there to steal, KILL, and destroy. You still don't get to chase him down and kill him if he flees, however. Someone comes at you with a weapon, and you fight back, resulting in his death, it's not murder.

Soldiers killing enemy soldiers on the battlefield is not murder. It's war. And both armies are fighting to survive. Combatants firing rockets into a civilian dwelling, or deliberately targeting unarmed non-combatants IS murder.

Extremists running into a civilian establishment seeking to kill as many people as possible is not "holy." It's murder. Even if they try to "justify" it by claiming "provocation" afterwards, by pointing to a set of "laws" that isn't even written down. (The Koran does NOT say "go forth and kill everyone who utters the name mohammad, or dares draw a picture of his likeness," for example.)

As for Bern's options? She's already cut off his arm and left deep gashes in his chest, and he keeps coming! (Not to mention destroying his weapon.)

Also, remember her style is almost exclusively counter attacks. It is very difficult for her to do anything preemptive.

He's also extremely "proud," determined, and believes he has a license to kill, or die trying. Bern's in a really hard place right now, and I don't envy her for a moment.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: 9_6 on May 09, 2015, 08:05:58 am
I guess next limbs will come off and flipside will go all monty python black knight on us.

Bit late for that. Both Mr. I-Beam and Yo-yo girl lost an arm already.
There are still those annoying kicky jumpy legs to be dealt with.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on May 09, 2015, 04:23:29 pm
Blue.

I guess next limbs will come off and flipside will go all monty python black knight on us.

Bit late for that. Both Mr. I-Beam and Yo-yo girl lost an arm already.

As for the "murder is wrong" thing. Murder is ALWAYS wrong. No exceptions. The death penalty is NOT murder.

You, uhhh just made one. By putting a fancy label on a word. Tell me, what is the difference between murder in revenge, sentencing someone to death through court proceedings, and killing in war? Not much. Someone was alive and had something going for them. Now they're dead, and their story is over. You've killed them.

Fact: the same physical action is employed for all three occasions, war, justice, or murder. There is fundamentally no difference besides the words. "I want you dead" vs "You are guilty, and sentenced to death" vs "It's war, so you have to die because you're the enemy." You can kill someone or you can spare them. But be honest about it.

 It is the taking of a guilty criminal's life as punishment for a specific crime, and all the way back to the code of Hamurabi, rape is an offense that warrants the death penalty. Even the second commandment specifically allows for the death penalty. "He who sheds innocent blood shall be slain by human hands."

No it doesn't. The original 10 commandments do not state this. This is the Mosaic Code. Last I checked, we neither care about women wearing the pants of men, nor kosher diet, nor mixing fibers in clothing. This law is not directly tied to the 10 commandments, and even if it was, this is a rationalization. A person shall be slain by human hands, mebbe. But it never said they must. It is also written "vengeance is mine." Bern very much has a choice in the matter.

The death penalty requires a little something called "due process." That is, bringing forth evidence, witnesses and delivering judgement from a higher power. A man running up and killing someone because he THINKS (or "knows") a guy raped his daughter would be homicide, a lesser form of murder, and could itself be punishable by death.

Self-defense is not murder. Someone breaks into your house, he's not there to deliver a check from Ed Mc Mahon. He's there to steal, KILL, and destroy. You still don't get to chase him down and kill him if he flees, however. Someone comes at you with a weapon, and you fight back, resulting in his death, it's not murder.

Because something is reasonable (and yes you have this right) does not make it the only option. A guy breaks into your house, you can club him until he leaves, or sic dogs on him.

Soldiers killing enemy soldiers on the battlefield is not murder. It's war. And both armies are fighting to survive. Combatants firing rockets into a civilian dwelling, or deliberately targeting unarmed non-combatants IS murder.

Again, you have delusions that there is a dinstinction. Call things by their proper name.

http://blog.independent.org/2013/02/07/now-we-know-war-is-murder/


Extremists running into a civilian establishment seeking to kill as many people as possible is not "holy." It's murder. Even if they try to "justify" it by claiming "provocation" afterwards, by pointing to a set of "laws" that isn't even written down. (The Koran does NOT say "go forth and kill everyone who utters the name mohammad, or dares draw a picture of his likeness," for example.)

Muslims believe that they are at war, and civilians are a threat to their way of life. They will have children who they will teach their way of life. Either realize that war is evil, but something you do in hopes that future generations will benefit, or stop kipping yourself and do not go to war.

As for Bern's options? She's already cut off his arm and left deep gashes in his chest, and he keeps coming! (Not to mention destroying his weapon.)

Also, remember her style is almost exclusively counter attacks. It is very difficult for her to do anything preemptive.

He's also extremely "proud," determined, and believes he has a license to kill, or die trying. Bern's in a really hard place right now, and I don't envy her for a moment.

And for once this entire post, I agree.


If he goes black knight, I'm probably changing the channel. "It's just a flesh wound."
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Azure Priest on May 11, 2015, 06:02:55 am
Black and Blue.

I guess next limbs will come off and flipside will go all monty python black knight on us.

Bit late for that. Both Mr. I-Beam and Yo-yo girl lost an arm already.

As for the "murder is wrong" thing. Murder is ALWAYS wrong. No exceptions. The death penalty is NOT murder.

You, uhhh just made one. By putting a fancy label on a word. Tell me, what is the difference between murder in revenge, sentencing someone to death through court proceedings, and killing in war? Not much. Someone was alive and had something going for them. Now they're dead, and their story is over. You've killed them.

Fact: the same physical action is employed for all three occasions, war, justice, or murder. There is fundamentally no difference besides the words. "I want you dead" vs "You are guilty, and sentenced to death" vs "It's war, so you have to die because you're the enemy." You can kill someone or you can spare them. But be honest about it.

 It is the taking of a guilty criminal's life as punishment for a specific crime, and all the way back to the code of Hamurabi, rape is an offense that warrants the death penalty. Even the second commandment specifically allows for the death penalty. "He who sheds innocent blood shall be slain by human hands."

No it doesn't. The original 10 commandments do not state this. This is the Mosaic Code. Last I checked, we neither care about women wearing the pants of men, nor kosher diet, nor mixing fibers in clothing. This law is not directly tied to the 10 commandments, and even if it was, this is a rationalization. A person shall be slain by human hands, mebbe. But it never said they must. It is also written "vengeance is mine." Bern very much has a choice in the matter.

The death penalty requires a little something called "due process." That is, bringing forth evidence, witnesses and delivering judgement from a higher power. A man running up and killing someone because he THINKS (or "knows") a guy raped his daughter would be homicide, a lesser form of murder, and could itself be punishable by death.

Self-defense is not murder. Someone breaks into your house, he's not there to deliver a check from Ed Mc Mahon. He's there to steal, KILL, and destroy. You still don't get to chase him down and kill him if he flees, however. Someone comes at you with a weapon, and you fight back, resulting in his death, it's not murder.

Because something is reasonable (and yes you have this right) does not make it the only option. A guy breaks into your house, you can club him until he leaves, or sic dogs on him.

Soldiers killing enemy soldiers on the battlefield is not murder. It's war. And both armies are fighting to survive. Combatants firing rockets into a civilian dwelling, or deliberately targeting unarmed non-combatants IS murder.

Again, you have delusions that there is a dinstinction. Call things by their proper name.

http://blog.independent.org/2013/02/07/now-we-know-war-is-murder/


Extremists running into a civilian establishment seeking to kill as many people as possible is not "holy." It's murder. Even if they try to "justify" it by claiming "provocation" afterwards, by pointing to a set of "laws" that isn't even written down. (The Koran does NOT say "go forth and kill everyone who utters the name mohammad, or dares draw a picture of his likeness," for example.)

Muslims believe that they are at war, and civilians are a threat to their way of life. They will have children who they will teach their way of life. Either realize that war is evil, but something you do in hopes that future generations will benefit, or stop kipping yourself and do not go to war.

As for Bern's options? She's already cut off his arm and left deep gashes in his chest, and he keeps coming! (Not to mention destroying his weapon.)

Also, remember her style is almost exclusively counter attacks. It is very difficult for her to do anything preemptive.

He's also extremely "proud," determined, and believes he has a license to kill, or die trying. Bern's in a really hard place right now, and I don't envy her for a moment.

And for once this entire post, I agree.


If he goes black knight, I'm probably changing the channel. "It's just a flesh wound."

The definition of murder since the Code of Hamurabi, the oldest written law, is "to kill an innocent person against whom you do not have a blood debt."

A blood debt is taking him (or evidence of his wrong doing) before a court and proving that he has done something to you that warrants death.

Killing someone in revenge is murder when it's not supported by the law, or an overriding public interest. Like say, shooting an axe wielding lunatic who is running down the street attacking people at random. If said lunatic happened to have raped your daughter/wife, or significant other at some time in the past, that's a bonus for you. As I said before, if you go out, on your own, with no evidence aside from your "knowledge" that he raped her and he is NOT wielding an axe, running around attacking people at random, and you shoot him anyway, that is murder because you have not proven that his actions warranted death.

That's not an exception, or contradiction. That IS the definition of murder under the law, and always has been. Anyone who says different needs to have a real long look in the mirror and ask his reflection why he's so eager to muddle the subject.

Killing an enemy combatant in war is different from murder because he is trying to kill you. Murder, as defined already, is you going out and killing someone "because you feel like it." Has that escaped your consciousness somehow?

The death penalty, which is clearly supported even by the second commandment "Thou shall not kill" applies to a very small segment of criminal behavior that is so vile, so heinous, so utterly depraved that the criminal in question has forfeited his right to live another moment, and failing to kill him puts the society at whole at risk, not only from his escaping and repeating the offense, or committing worse ones, but by inspiring others to copy it.  This is wholly different from murder, which, once again, is "I feel like killing someone" and then going and doing it.

That answers your argument "guess it's not very much." The fact that a person who was alive is now dead does NOT automatically guarantee he was murdered. Anyone who tries to muddy the definition of murder into something else clearly has some hidden agenda, and that worries me.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on May 13, 2015, 03:38:01 am
But here's the thing. We've adapted to culture past the Code of Hammurabi. Most of us don't even know that culture existed. I wear the hamsa however, which dates back to around this era (along with its ties to, well, practically every religion including Islam, Judaism, Buddhism).

At the very least, we have heard from Gandhi and others "an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."

Okay, sure, people like this guy can try to satisfy their blood debts. And that's fine, this is a free world.

But being a free world, isn't the hope we live for that people don't have to live like this? That Bern has a choice? That's what she's fighting for. Heh, a warrior for kindness.

That said, Bern's gone from frightened to pissed. Look at the very beginning of this battle and this. Likely she's gonna knock him across the room.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Silverdrake on May 13, 2015, 05:46:34 am
(Fair enough. I don't really want to talk to him anyway, even to apologize) [...]

That is your right but I want to point out that Brion is developing the story just as I think it would based on my interpretation what I saw. What I outlined is what the current arc is is about, no matter if you want to see it or not. Does that make Brion the same degradory term you used on me as well in your eyes? Stating that Bernadette is not perfect and that she runs into issues due to her specific way of not being perfect? That she has to adapt in some way to get through this?
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on May 13, 2015, 05:04:38 pm
...

That went over my head, sorry. Brion is cool. I've texted him by email before.

Here's my take.

You guys all said, "this is a deus ex machina" weapon, and cheap win, cheap win. But it's not. The actual struggle is within Bern herself.

Think of Bern in modern terms. Bern is like someone who in today's society would refuse to compete with others on the grounds that somewhere, someone is more deserving of that job, and probably would starve without it. So in a competitive work environment, they always lose. Nevermind that they may actually be the most deserving, the only way it happens is in a super-corporation that hires tons of people, and they work to keep their job (results may vary). Now, you have outsiders looking in at her, and they're like "she has no guts" or that she expects a job to fall into her lap. Nah, it's not like this.

Bern is a pacifist. She doesn't mind cutting off arms, because a person can still technically live with just one arm. But she wants to, if at all possible (maybe not), avoid seriously hurting people. She also can't stand the idea of competing gladiator style. That said, I don't pin her as a morally stupid person. She'd be (mostly) okay with someone else doing killing, it's her personal oath. She also would be okay with fighting as cooperation, as in, if she could talk the thug in front of her into it, it possibly wouldn't matter that he is the worst sort of criminal. She would work with him to try to escape this place.

Bern needs to adapt to survive, same as the thug. However, she wants to do it without compromising her dearly-held beliefs. So she will need to adjust her fighting style to win without being ashamed later. This is why this battle is taking a long time, despite having a powerful sword, she has the mentality of Kenshin Himura, without a sword that automatically is blunt edged. Given that the swords seem to absorb somehow, maybe using moves that are simultaneous attack and blocks will be effective. Or something else. Bern will need to do what she needs to to survive. But I do not believe this is what she needs to, or Bern would be a warrior like everyone else. Bern is Bern.

 
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: sunphoenix on May 15, 2015, 06:38:19 am
Careful there Bern.. assuming he is 'just' going for your legs is also a trap... be fluid and ready to counter a multitude of attack strategies.

A swordsman who thinks he knows all his opponent is up to is limiting his own options and makes himself predictable... be spontaneous... never let the enemy know what you think by just reacting to what he shows you of his strategy. 

That's how I struck my teacher in our last training fight... I made him think I was doing one thing when in fact.. I was doing something entirely different! :)
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: SAGG on May 15, 2015, 01:07:49 pm
Nah. He's going for her legs.  ;D Now that Bern knows, she need to go for HIS legs by cutting them off like she did his arm, then let's see how he'll react wiggling on the ground...  8)
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Silverdrake on May 16, 2015, 10:54:13 am
The way the fight now develops makes clear this is not a Deus Ex Machina-Weapon. As I put forward somewhere earlier Bernadette with her weapons was a too big threat to the current foes - and as such they lost easily (and due to surprise; they expected her to be a push-over when facing three A-rank (or S-rank) enemies). Bernadette would have to face stronger enemies later in the story against whom she'd not as easily win due to her eqiupment being superious and she'd have to fight and adapt.

We got too see how powerful the swords comnined with her fighting style are, now the real show starts: one of the foes *did* survive the initial surprise and he's now showing what it takes to "could fight S-ranked matches". He is strong and has a powerful weapon, but he is an adapting fighter.

He does just that, he adapts to Bernadette and forcing her to rely on something else but her +5 Swords of Defense (or whatever you want to call those things). This fight is going to be interesting, probably with both involved characters.

As for "why" is he still fighting to the last breath: I can very well imagine two reasons.
A) he does have a warriors honor or at least resolve, he wants to surive. At least he does not want to be at the mercy of a foe he does not know and as such attempts to go through with it, as much as he can. HE does not know her, does not know how far she would go, he only knows she "needs the credit, as everyone else around here". Going on as long as he can is not a stupid decision.

B) we know the people running the arena can be quite mean when it comes to putting pressure on people (and Warden does that as well, as we have seen). It is not impossible they told those fighters "You're in for a fun-fight. You'll easily win against this women, smash her good for entertainment. But in case you lose... well, you better. not. lose. You'd get downranked/your credit will get voided if you lose!" and as such they had all the incentive to pressure. If Warden judged Bernadette right (which she probably did) she knew that Bernadette would try to negotiate her way out or let everyone go who surrenders are talks about a draw, so she made sure from the beginning the intended foes would press her as much as possible and not talk to her, not take any deals and mercy from her.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on May 16, 2015, 04:50:14 pm
In all likelihood, the criminal justice system is run by three different corporations:

The entertainment industry vso to speak (remember those three things she could do?)

The arena.

And the prison.

All three are effectively money making operations, as in, the prison system reduces marks, but the real goal is the work program. The workers are working effectively for free, the owner is making all the profit (it might even be rigged so food and board adds marks). We've seen the arena and the sort of emotional pressure they can exrt on people. And the entertainment industry is kinda sick.

In other words, warden probably was like "just one battle and you're free" to these guys. These guys are probably in a bad position because they are too strong for weaker but too weak for S rank, so theyre stuck. So they entered the battle thinking it was a way out, but the warden placed odds on her. Best  thing that can happen is that this guy can wake her up to that this whole thing is a rigged game, and they can put their heads together.

Nah, screw it. This guy talks about pride. But how can you talk about pride, when you think lethal force, and three against one are decent tactics? That you use cheap garbage like kicking sand in people's faces? If this were a cooking competition, and they spiked the food, would they call these winners? Or cheaters? Bern's pride comes from her friends. Her family. And faith in her skill and her standards. Her pride is precisely what won't allow her to sink to his level. And she'll win, fair and square (the swords seem cheap, but they are only as good as she is). Whatever feints or deceptions he uses, she'll shrug them off and keep going. They may be alot alike. But she can do this, and I believe in her.  She can talk to this guy after she's defeated him.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: mittfh on May 18, 2015, 12:07:13 am
So Bern's worked out his current tactic - now to work out a counter. I wonder if she could use one blade to halt the progress of the remainder of his weapon while using the other to cut off the stub, thus leaving him with the hilt only, and in subsequent moves progressively shorten the hilt?

At that point, she'd almost certainly need to bash his forehead with the flat of her blades to knock him out, as in hand-to-hand combat his size would have a huge advantage over her.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on May 18, 2015, 03:36:17 am
Or just hand over hand scissors attack (they seem to charge the other when the one blocks, so she could probably keep cutting) until the guy has nothing left to hold. Then kick him in the balls, and walk off.  ;D

(Alternatively, once he loses his weapon because he's extending forward he's off balance, and she can just pull her weapon back and hit tennis racquet style with the flat of her sword)

That will put a quick end to his "pride".

In terms of size advantage, basically as we picked up from that punch, any attack he throws is converted into energy. Sorta Kirby Right Back At Ya deal going on (sorry, all I could think of at the moment). The big advantage he has now over her is reach, he has  one fist and one staff, and he could potentially switch things up to play with her ability to dodge. The fact that the weapon is now a stub works in his favor too, as attack can come from virtually any direction. Hands and feet have a predictable reach gap where they overlap at different points, giving her advantage.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Silverdrake on May 18, 2015, 07:45:36 am
I see his "pride" in the most negative form: His pride he has won so far. His pride in his skill which lets him win. His pride not to admit to defeat and weakness.

He is not understanding he has to compromise or should surrender or even take a less aggressive approach in fighting Bernadette because his pride won't let him, it forces him to attack to win.

Bernadette has a much more modest pride, I'd call it more "respect for others" and "self respect" than the "pride" her current foe shows.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: sunphoenix on May 18, 2015, 08:39:43 am
So Bern's worked out his current tactic - now to work out a counter. I wonder if she could use one blade to halt the progress of the remainder of his weapon while using the other to cut off the stub, thus leaving him with the hilt only, and in subsequent moves progressively shorten the hilt?

At that point, she'd almost certainly need to bash his forehead with the flat of her blades to knock him out, as in hand-to-hand combat his size would have a huge advantage over her.

Well... as I was taught.. if an opponent in a sword fight sticks with only probing fast strikes with little or no force behind them... counterstrike and make him pay for it!  Light probing strikes are fairly easy to deflect... at the 'slight' advantage of being fast... but they carry little threat... unless they are {as I suspect beam-boy is trying}... to get you to block so your weapon is out of ready to really defend when a truly full force attack comes~ likely from an opposite direction. 

There are two schools of thought to deal with this...

Either just keep dodging and avoiding their swings letting them tire themselves out with a bunch of low threat attacks, parrying only when they actually make a serious attempt... and waiting for their foolish probing attacks to leave an opening in their own defenses then move in for the kill with series of powerful counterstrikes.  As usual never more than three or four counter attacks to keep yourself from getting into a predictable pattern of strikes than can be countered~ in return.

Or... let them make a couple probing attacks and immediately go on the offensive with a couple of powerful parries to bat their weapon out of ready {since they have been foolish enough to not put any force behind their strikes} so they cannot easily recover to defend or Counter attack and hit them HARD!  Again, no more than 3 or 4 attacks so an effective counter strike is hard to muster on their part.

In this instance destroying more of his weapon in a series of counter strikes would be a reasonable adjustment of either tactic to again cut down on his reach and making him have to expose his very cutable flesh to counterstrikes on Bern's part.

One thing Bern should also be aware of is when an enemy is seemingly sticking to attack in one direction... that usually means they are setting up to attack in the opposite direction eventually... if they are any good and not just a 'noob' at this sword-fighting thing.  Clearly.. this guy is no novice!  So that means Bern should be careful not fall into the trap of lessening her defenses in any particular location or side/front of attack... simply because he is not attacking from that side/front.  ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS maintain good form and keep your blade in the ready zone of your stance... so you can be prepared and not off-balance or out of position to counter from any front or side.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on May 18, 2015, 11:24:43 am
Quote
So Bern's worked out his current tactic - now to work out a counter. I wonder if she could use one blade to halt the progress of the remainder of his weapon while using the other to cut off the stub, thus leaving him with the hilt only, and in subsequent moves progressively shorten the hilt?

At that point, she'd almost certainly need to bash his forehead with the flat of her blades to knock him out, as in hand-to-hand combat his size would have a huge advantage over her.

Anyone else feeling a whole Yin-Yang vibe here? The more we want Bern to adapt here, the more he instead adapts. The more we want her to find a way to counter, the more she does. Not to mention the whole twin swords thing, and her being defense/him being attack.

Couldn't she lead with one sword, extending it out to block the attack, and sweep with the other? Urgh, but it's not her strength, it's his! I would call leading with the sword a good technique (blocks both, and he has to make a new attack), except that it probably always takes the last sword attack into account.

In all likelihood, option two is a no-go, since it seems like the swords are not designed to use her strength, they absorb kinetic energy from their target. In all likelihood, if she attacks first, they might deal no damage. Which would be disastrous, as it would tell an already savvy fighter way too much about her.

Option 1 would be a good option, but for the fact that she currently has a bum leg and can't do her patented perfect dodge.

Since both options are out, option 3 would be psychological warfare! Use the fact that he seems to be fixated on his pride and being a winner to egg him on into attacking with force. If he does something sloppy because he gets mad or impatient, he's basically defeated himself. That said, I have never seen Bern use psychological warfare, and I'm not sure she even knows how to taunt.

Alternatively, she learns to study him and figure out his attacks. And block one handed. Given that it's his force, she doesn't likely need more than that, so she can use the other to multitask, countering only when he uses force. It might slow things to a crawl however, so she she use her time to figure out his style.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: sunphoenix on May 19, 2015, 09:29:51 am
{Shrug}... in her position... I'd attack.  I'm a man of peace... yes, but if I have to draw steel to defend my life or the lives of others.. I'm no longer a pacifist.  My teacher was quite adamant on this point... "If you draw a live steel sword on someone.. make no equivocation on the matter.. you intend to use lethal force and kill.  Otherwise you should not have drawn the sword in the first place... and are disrespecting the gravity of the choice you just made!  Draw to kill or don't draw at all!"

So, I'd attack his good arm let him throw his weak probing attacks.. I'd parry and immediately counter with a strike to his arm.  Or I'd keep moving and strike at his armless side where he can't easily defend. 
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: monimoni on May 20, 2015, 12:53:02 pm
I have a bad feeling about this... I hope he's not going to out-smart her
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: sunphoenix on May 20, 2015, 01:55:51 pm
I have a bad feeling about this... I hope he's not going to out-smart her

Yep, 'When you think you know exactly what the opponent is going to do.. that's the time to be doubly wary that YOU are not fooling yourself into reacting just the way your opponent wants you to!'

You don't have to block or parry every swing or attack some big bruiser with a Gurren Laggan / GUNDAM 'hat-fetish' and a big 'broken' club makes at you!  Always the best defense that leaves you the most options is.. just don't be where he's swinging.  If you 'THINK' your certain that's what he's doing~ just don't be there!
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on May 20, 2015, 05:30:12 pm
She's not so much "thinking she knows what he's gonna do," so much as watching his body movements. As long as she keeps her eye on him, and moves her sword, even if he tries to fake her out, she can still react. That's what reading an enemy is. That said, she picked an awfully late time to start, since she needs to simultaneously figure out how best to use the swords, while reading him, meaning even if his movements are correctly predicted, if she moves her swords wrong, it could blow up in her face.

I think she should adjust her style to block with the back sword, and dodge his weapon at the last second with the leading sword (throwing all the force into the blocking sword. It is probably easier to add power late than pull punches at the last second. If she can randomly alternate which sword blocks, she keeps him guessing and has an advantage.

I was on TvTropes on the FlipSide page, and I saw this. Kinda cracked me up.

(http://i59.tinypic.com/2chqmwg.jpg)

May is Maytag Month.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: SAGG on May 22, 2015, 01:30:11 am
Well now. Let's see what the big fella's going to do now...
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on May 22, 2015, 04:50:49 am
Guys, I'm not sure I can keep reading this comic. I should be thrilled for Bern, but... I'm not.

I'm not really cheering for the other guy, either, because he's a bully. I just plain hate this battle, and that it's dragging on like this.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: sunphoenix on May 22, 2015, 05:48:05 am
Each to his own Miss Briefs... but I personally like seeing Bernedette on the offensive for once! :)

Guess he underestimated her will to not be underated.  If that blow was fatal.. he possibly still could be saved with magic... {shrug}...

I don't think the big guy was a bully.. he never gloated over any hit he made on her .. he saw her as a true challenge for his skill and power someone who had finally pushed him to his limits... and beyond.  If he survives... there is no reason they might not be friends.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Pinkk on May 22, 2015, 05:48:12 am
But here's the thing. We've adapted to culture past the Code of Hammurabi. Most of us don't even know that culture existed. I wear the hamsa however, which dates back to around this era (along with its ties to, well, practically every religion including Islam, Judaism, Buddhism).

At the very least, we have heard from Gandhi and others "an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."

Okay, sure, people like this guy can try to satisfy their blood debts. And that's fine, this is a free world.

But being a free world, isn't the hope we live for that people don't have to live like this? That Bern has a choice? That's what she's fighting for. Heh, a warrior for kindness.

That said, Bern's gone from frightened to pissed. Look at the very beginning of this battle and this. Likely she's gonna knock him across the room.

Just because people don't know what the code is, does not mean we've adapted past it.

Killing does not equal murder, and that is still in effect today.

Bern however isn't murdering anyone, she's killing in self defense.  It's really the only way she can survive in a prison system that has an arena for people's amusement and even with the arena's no killing "rule" she was told it was lifted just for her.

As for the latest comic, wow...I'm really just surprised that Polly and the guard/rank tester (forgot exact name of her) have any look of surprise on their faces.  They both say they know how talented she is at fighting, so why look shocked when they know how awesome she can be? :p
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: sunphoenix on May 22, 2015, 05:55:29 am
{snip}

...

As for the latest comic, wow...I'm really just surprised that Polly and the guard/rank tester (forgot exact name of her) have any look of surprise on their faces.  They both say they know how talented she is at fighting, so why look shocked when they know how awesome she can be? :p

I don't think it was exactly shock... but its still quite a spectacle to see a master martial artist perform feats in an exhibition.  Yeah, you mentally know, "ok yeah, he's a 10th Dan Kung Fu master..."; but its STILL a shock to see him demonstrate WHY he is called 'master'! :)

But notice.. the Warden was not shocked at all!  She's either a very cool killer all in her own right... or she knows something that no one else does... then again.. probably both!
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: IronSoul on May 22, 2015, 07:10:35 am
Quote
Guys, I'm not sure I can keep reading this comic. I should be thrilled for Bern, but... I'm not.

I'm not really cheering for the other guy, either, because he's a bully. I just plain hate this battle, and that it's dragging on like this.

I don't blame you. I don't think this chapter is necessarily a mistake, though. This chapter definitely has a "monty hall" feel, but that's not unheard of in a comic book series, and an enchanted weapon  or artifact alluded to earlier in a story is common in fantasy. Normally it results in a very powerful, impressive presentation, and it can be against overwhelming odds, its supposed to be satisfying as we cheer the character on, and wish to see more of the weapon/artifact/tool can do, where we can then see more of its strengths and how they compliment the fighter, or if we take a more storybook route, its weaknesses, or what happens should the fighter rely on them too much. These are all viable options in the Flipside-verse, right now.

So why is this not flashy and fun? That's ultimately, at least in my opinion, the biggest point to showing off such weapons, unless the point is to create such a contrast with crippling weakness later. Why is The Indomitable Blades, part II, such a "tedious, dragging on scene" when so many people wanted to get to the fight, already?

Because The Indomitable Blades, part I, did one of the worst things it possibly could to a protagonist: it made her unlikeable. (Edit: Just a warning guys, this is insanely long)

The naive protagonist is not a new concept, not even close. There are tons of characters like that, and many of them quite successful; consider ironic characters like Frodo Baggins or Luke Skywalker. When it came to the world beyond their own, both of them were ultimately clueless, or naive, or both. That's not to say a competent character can't be important; someone like Aragorn could fit this bill quite nicely. I don't think even combining the two is necessarily a problem. I think a lot of us felt really bad for Bern when she was begging for directions on the streets of Marvallo, scowled at the high price of healing and the healer's crass treatment of both her and the father, and some of us probably cheered when she whipped out her blades and asserted her own dominance. I'm sure some people were critical, or didn't get why Bern would do so much for a drunk that she barely knew, but I remember the reception to what Bern did at least being, overall, positive.

But then we get to the Colosseum, and here's where it becomes a problem. The thing with the earlier example in Marvallo is that Bern was, ultimately, treated unfairly by a cruel, uncaring world. Legality won over morality, or at least, the reader's perception of morality. However, in the arena itself, Bern refuses to fight because of her own perception of morality. To fight simply to entertain and earn her freedom is something she refuses to do. Still fine so far, fits the naive, albeit technically competent protagonist.

However, there are two very, very, big problems with this. One is the fact that Blackbird is here, period. This makes Bern's desire to not fight, at all costs, come off as extremely selfish, not just in terms of being a bad teammate, although that is certainly there, but also because of the fact that she ultimately is taking the stance that by not fighting, she is putting herself and her moralities above every single fighter in the fighter in the Colosseum, including the woman who sacrificed her freedom to mitigate Bernadette's punishment. The second problem, and ultimately, the bigger problem, is the fact that the Colosseum comes off as...pretty fair, honestly. Yes, when we're introduced, it was portrayed as a place in the middle of transition, with a leader that used to enjoy raping women, with several protestors lining up against them, but beyond that, on screen, what has the Colosseum done that's actually wrong? Bern didn't fight the warden during her application, and let her teammates do all the work, so they didn't want to give Bern a chance to fight for her freedom (not even that bad, they just placed heavy restrictions on her right to fight and cancelled her fights for that week), because she refused to fight in the first place. Those are pretty reasonable consequences for Bern's actions. No one's being unfair in this situation, really, but Bern.

Then we get to "the talk" with Bernadette and Warden. Warden is fair, and realizes Bern is a much better fighter than she is, but lacks the "warrior's spirit", or at least, the warrior's spirit as fits the arena. Long story short, she gives Bernadette an ultimatum, Bern accepts, and allows Polly to once again throw herself under the bus for our protagonist. This makes Bernadette even more selfish, and even more unlikeable, by again placing her own perception of morality to not fight, even for her freedom--or to see Maytag again. So right now, Bern has been portrayed as selfish, ignorant, not a team player, and a whiner.

As a plot device, this could work very well if it bit her in the ass, but it doesn't, because next is the deathmatch. Because the three fighters are facing her in an unfair fight (and possibly the only unfair part of the arena we've actually seen so far), we're put in a situation where Bernadette either has to rise above this, and gain much despite her selfish, indecisive actions, or die. Several pages of the legendary twin swords of uber pwnage later, and we have Bern more than likely victorious, and we have two chapters that are probably the worst two in the entire series, and chapters that should have made Bern take a level in badass, and stand firm against a cruel, uncaring world, and be the hero, ends up portarying her more as a Mary Sue type that gets bailed out whenever there's a problem. What should have been one of the most satisfying arcs has become very unsatisfying.

Why? Honestly...the Colosseum was fair. The organizer didn't treat Bern any differently than his other fighters, and war concerned for his business, that he is trying to reform (even if to just save his own neck), and the Warden is more than reasonable, especially by Marvallo standards. I personally don't think this chapter coming to play earlier than intended is the problem, because i think the damage was done in the scenes I outlined earlier. Bernadette could have had her perspective change in this cruel world, and still be a noble, selfless fighter: she simply needed to change the means she did this. She could have even flat out regretted the blood she shed after adapting to the Colosseum, thrust her swords into the ground, declaring "never again", and walk off. Then Bern could have started questioning herself and what she was doing and why she was fighting, and I think we as readers would sympathize with her plight more.

Or, if we wanted to go with this "rise above the arena" thing, that could actually have worked. However, for this to work, the Colosseum needed to be unfair, even if it was unfair to everyone. The organizer's intro was fine, and the notion of Blackbird kicking ass for Bern could also work. The two of them being separated works. At this point, we really should have seen more about the Colosseum being cruel, callous, and flat out negligent.

Some people said, in jest, that Bern should have gotten raped/sex slave, etc. Honestly? In all seriousness, it could've helped this arc. However, I don't mean by route of option A: One of the other prisoners should have done it, or better, one of the guards in the Colosseum. Bern should have been traumatized, as early as possible, into this arc, and we should have seen it. This would make the reader's sympathize with Bern, and it would give her a reason beyond her own personal morality to not want to play "these barbaric games", severe trauma can do a lot, and whittling away at someone's courage or decisive nature are generally considered to be among those things. This would also make Option A a lot more repulsive, and maybe even trigger some level of trauma for Bern, and make us sympathize more with her: our poor hero was already raped once, why should we want her to put herself through that again? This also makes Polly's decision look a hell of a lot more heroic, and really drives the sinister nature of the Colosseum home. It doesn't have to be rape, the Colosseum simply needs to be brutal and unfair, but because of Bernadette's views of sex and violence, the question of rape certainly hits her, in my opinion on a moral level as well as a physical and emotional one, it certainly makes us sympathize for her, it justifies her indecision, her crying, her loathing of the arena, and it paints her as a victim. Then she gets set up for the deathmatch, tricked, traumatized, and guilty that Polly sacrificed herself to protect her, and then the swords bail her out until she finds her own confidence again, her own strength, and she manages to defeat True Strike in the iconic perfect counter that we know her for. She stays true to her morals, becomes stronger for holding onto who she is, and demonstrates the great power behind these swords, and everything she did was now worth it as she is much closer to completing her quest.

I think that's what Brion is going for, but going back to the reader's perspective of morality, all we see, on screen, is Bern not being a team player, and the only reason we see is that she thinks she's above the Colosseum's games, and again, this is primarily a problem because the Colosseum, before the slaughter match, has been more or less fair. That makes Bern herself look unreasonable, and when there are no consequences for that kind of mentality for the hero, it makes her very unlikeable, regardless of how good she's been in the past.

God, that was longer than I intended. I do apologize. I'm not some award winning author, but based on my experience in reading and at least dabbling in writing, that's my perspective.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: monimoni on May 22, 2015, 09:18:22 am
^ I kind of agree. I also don't see the point of Polly being here; all she did so far was made her look bad. And if I remember correctly, it was Polly who insisted she took this route (Colosseum). So if anything I despise Polly more.  I hope somewhere along the line this will all make sense though. I am curious what is going to happen with that "deal". I have a feeling that this is not going to be it for Bern.
But I don't really agree that it's a fair place. They allow super enchanted weapons and sorcery. The "aptitude test" was about using your shitty old school weapon to stand up to this super enchanted chain thing. Old school weapon means you automatically go into C/D rank or get killed cause you stand no chance against Warden (see first guy who attacked vs. Polly with her fancy magic ball).
So from this point of view Bern's swords are really not overpowered, she just received the proper weapons for this place.

Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: IronSoul on May 22, 2015, 11:22:43 am
Quote
^ I kind of agree. I also don't see the point of Polly being here; all she did so far was made her look bad. And if I remember correctly, it was Polly who insisted she took this route (Colosseum). So if anything I despise Polly more.  I hope somewhere along the line this will all make sense though. I am curious what is going to happen with that "deal". I have a feeling that this is not going to be it for Bern.

If I remember correctly, Polly advocated the Colosseum, but the Enforcers also made it a condition if Polly were to take half of Bern's marks.

Quote
But I don't really agree that it's a fair place. They allow super enchanted weapons and sorcery. The "aptitude test" was about using your shitty old school weapon to stand up to this super enchanted chain thing. Old school weapon means you automatically go into C/D rank or get killed cause you stand no chance against Warden (see first guy who attacked vs. Polly with her fancy magic ball).
So from this point of view Bern's swords are really not overpowered, she just received the proper weapons for this place.

That's true, though the use of enchanted weapons could also speak, in part, of the business at large. Flashy, powerful weapons in the hands of vicious warriors probably gets more paying customers than three common criminals going at it. Most people with a common weapon probably have less marks to pay than someone with such a dangerous weapon as well. It's harsh on C and D ranked "common" criminals, but it would also largely discourage crime, wouldn't it?

But to consider your argument from your perspective...perhaps fair is not the optimal word. The Colosseum has the prison feel with the poor beds and the barred cells, at least for the D rank "quarters", but nothing else to really suggest this is a brutal place to be outside of the arena. I doubt it's comfortable, but it's not a special kind of brutal that gives Bern a reason to really hate this place outside of "I don't want to fight for the amusement of others", thing. It's not sinister enough, if that's a better word. Something like this to portray Bern as the justified hero needs more brutality in their treatment, or skeletons in the closet. Think about The Running Man, as an example, if anyone remembers that now.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on May 22, 2015, 04:20:32 pm
Each to his own Miss Briefs... but I personally like seeing Bernedette on the offensive for once! :)

Guess he underestimated her will to not be underated.  If that blow was fatal.. he possibly still could be saved with magic... {shrug}...

I don't think the big guy was a bully.. he never gloated over any hit he made on her .. he saw her as a true challenge for his skill and power someone who had finally pushed him to his limits... and beyond.  If he survives... there is no reason they might not be friends.

That looks like not a heart wound but a blow to the stomach. If he calls it quits here, he can probably get healing in time. If not, depending on whether it hit major organs, could be fatal.

There are different types of bullies, actually. A bully is a person who does one of two things, usually.

Yes, he does see her as a worthy opponent. However, did he force her to do something? Yes. By keeping going for his stupid pride, he effectively is forcing her to consider lethal action, something that is disgusting to her. Now let's talk about the other category.

http://www.projectpave.org/6-types-abuse

There are 6 major types of abuse, aside from self-inflicted like drug abuse:


Pushing you into a corner, and making you feel like you're betraying yourself, is likely mental or emotional abuse. I'm not sure. Anyway, I'm feeling a little better about this comic, I was having a really crappy day (a friend that I work together with basically told me I'm worthless or something, and it was tied to work so I was left in the lurch. I couldn't really enjoy this comic until late in the afternoon).
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Pinkk on May 22, 2015, 09:14:37 pm
While I haven't hated it or had any problem with the story, the reason you may not be liking it, is because it's a fight scene that you end up having to wait for.  It's one thing when it's not much of a fight scene and more story, but this is about the fight, so you tend to want it to go faster.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: sunphoenix on May 23, 2015, 01:22:22 pm
Anyway, I'm feeling a little better about this comic, I was having a really crappy day (a friend that I work together with basically told me I'm worthless or something, and it was tied to work so I was left in the lurch. I couldn't really enjoy this comic until late in the afternoon).

I know this may not be my place to say... and I know I really don't know you, Miss Briefs; but the few posts you have written even your disagreement with the 'unnamed' poster I have always found your posts insightful, well thought out, and very sane and worthy of all consideration.  You seem to be a passionate, Very intelligent, and insightful woman. 

If your...'colleague' at work cannot see your deep and valuable qualities... then his opinion is, in my humble opinion, not of the worth that you should place much weight in it or allow his shortsightedness to make you question your qualities or contributions... in ANY venue!

I did not say this before for fear of being too forward... but I'm very glad you abandoned the path of a entertainment sex worker.  No person should have to sell themselves for the entertainment of another just to make a living.  I'm certain there are far more upbuilding and lucrative career choices a woman of your clear intelligence and education can pursue and still maintain your own self-respect and dignity.  I'm glad you found another way to make your living.  And not being judgmental or condemning any who have had to make a different choice.. but I'm glad a woman of your clear qualities & intelligence found another option... and I'm sure the world is better for it.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on May 23, 2015, 04:54:31 pm
(I'm a transwoman, early transition, but thank you. I think I relate to Bern alot because she's sorta a "gruff" quiet woman)

Her. It smacked of abuse but it happening at the same day this came out completely soured my view of the comic. It felt like Bern won against me. It took much of the day to realize that I was looking at this wrong, and while I am certainly flawed, she didn't know me past a few weeks. After taking a better look at myself, I was able to "counter" my initial assessment.

Urgh, I do not want to talk about that. The degrading part isn't even the worst part, it was like zero privacy, so I'd get phone calls in the middle of the night, or while I was with my parents. Most of them would only agree if I gave them my address (refused), so 2/3 of it was time wasters, and most of the rest either were trying to scam/lowball or such freaks I didn't want to do anything with them.

Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Smiles on May 23, 2015, 06:11:15 pm
So missed seeing you at Acen this year Brion. :/ but loving the new pages as usual. ^_^ Go Bern! I bet even she didn't expect that. lolz.

hey ever thought about going to cons in Florida? I happen to know a small little con you could pick up a new gen fanbase ^_^
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: monimoni on May 25, 2015, 04:52:53 am
Aw. Should've cut off his other hand..
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: SAGG on May 25, 2015, 05:40:15 am
Look, Bern will NOT die, right? My guess is that this guy will die before Bern can. The only way he could get within reach of Bern's neck is to move towards Bern--and he did NOT try to get off of her sword. Hence, that sword went DEEPER into him, and HAD to have hit something vital, it just had to. Prediction: Just before he can deliver the Death Squeeze, he'll croak.

And Bern did NOT kill this guy, Polly. His Warrior's Pride did. Chill...

P.S.: I'm adding that the sword will somehow prevent him from killing her, since she's still holding them. I wouldn't be surprised if it forces him to let her go...
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on May 25, 2015, 06:19:13 am
Good lord.  :o Stop it man, enough is enough.

Or pass out. He has a bound up left hand, chest shrapnel (or whatever that was), and a gut wound.

Currently at this range, she has about four moves.

This reminds me of an episode of Beet the Vandel Buster, a lesser known anime in some circles.

They fight Grunide, this monster who spent his life containing his rage and his power. Anyway, he goes berserk, and they can't beat him (because he's using his actual rage to regenerate) until they do a completely crazy teamwork attack that cuts his horn. This is supposed to stop him as the horn is the source of power for the Vandels. But he sorta final attacks after the final strike and they're caught off guard. All it takes is a last push, of Beet using his magic to touch him with his hand on fire, and he falls back (of course, after that he explodes and they have to run for the hills).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQPnbUgmFOw&spfreload=10
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Stargoat on May 25, 2015, 10:31:29 am
Well, that's the other arm.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Dhaxis on May 26, 2015, 09:10:43 am
    What bother's me about this situation is if she could read his quick strikes with the pole arm weapon remains how did she not read he was dropping his weapon and going for a grab? Even in this position she has multiple escape options, or at least given how badly injured the man is.

    I saw earlier a mention of a push off from his chest motion she could do, which seems likely, but really all she has to to do is stab him with the swords repeatedly... he only has one arm after all.

    Being choked certainly isn't the end of a fight, and a stab wound of that caliber (he had at least 6+ inches of steel in his gut, it is bound to have hit something vital). Granted in a world of magic I suppose "being realistic" is up to interpretation. Even simply hitting his arm with her swords, to inflict cuts along it or perhaps even severing it, isn't farfetched considering she already cut his arm off with just one of the swords.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: mittfh on May 26, 2015, 12:44:32 pm
If only she'd aimed her thrusting sword a little lower - he might have been in rather more pain if she'd prevented his ability to reproduce...

Still, Bern's currently being strangled while he's got a sword piercing his guts. If Bern has enough strength left to withdraw that sword, it's likely he'll start losing blood significantly quicker, at which point he'll have other things to think about. If she can hit him with her other sword (not necessarily thrust through him, but enough to cause another injury) it's possible he'd lose blood (and therefore grip strength) even quicker...
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Pinkk on May 26, 2015, 09:42:36 pm
If only she'd aimed her thrusting sword a little lower - he might have been in rather more pain if she'd prevented his ability to reproduce...

Still, Bern's currently being strangled while he's got a sword piercing his guts. If Bern has enough strength left to withdraw that sword, it's likely he'll start losing blood significantly quicker, at which point he'll have other things to think about. If she can hit him with her other sword (not necessarily thrust through him, but enough to cause another injury) it's possible he'd lose blood (and therefore grip strength) even quicker...

Just needs to stab him in the throat.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Silverdrake on May 27, 2015, 07:16:11 am
He is defenseless now. He grabs with his left arm and is static due to holding her, Bernadette has her right arm free, she can also move her sword sticking in his stomach up, down, slice away.

Unless he crushes her throat right away (he should given his strength) Bernadette can now decide his fate: Chop off the arm, stab him wherever she wants to. This is a very bad situation he has moved himself into. He probably can use his right to smash in Bernadette's face or something, if he is fast enough.

This is a situation where we probably see Bernadette's slit-second-gut reaction (what a lame pun...gut reaction...) how she treats him now. One way or the other the fight is going to end.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: monimoni on May 27, 2015, 09:36:24 am
Umm his right? It was cut off a while ago.
Now if Bern dies, I don't know if I can continue following this comic. Just sayin.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on May 27, 2015, 12:12:55 pm
    What bother me about this situation is if she could read his quick strikes with the pole arm weapon remains how did she not read he was dropping his weapon and going for a grab? Even in this position she has multiple escape options, or at least given how badly injured the man is.

    I saw earlier a mention of a push off from his chest motion she could do, which seems likely, but really all she has to to do is stab him with the swords repeatedly... he only has one arm after all.

    Being choked certainly isn't the end of a fight, and a stab wound of that caliber (he had at least 6+ inches of steel in his gut, it is bound to have hit something vital). Granted in a world of magic I suppose "being realistic" is up to interpretation. Even simply hitting his arm with her swords, to inflict cuts along it or perhaps even severing it, isn't farfetched considering she already cut his arm off with just one of the swords.

Reading attacks is not the same as being ready for all counters. Also, you've obviously not been trained in any martial arts.

Sword 1 outside-blocks (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2aVwsSQ4Vzk) the club or whatever, sword 2 stabs. The thing about an outside block is that the arm is --> while he simply dropped the weapon and moved out of position to do a grab. This means for her right hand to attack, she has to sweep across her body from low-mid outside to high center, while having little breathing space in her lungs to work with. The other arm has just been out of his chest, and in a weird position to block.  The most effective thing she could do is aim sword 2 slightly upward for a light stab, and kick with both feet. This would instantly break his hold, and knock him over. Or an inside block with the hand that just struck him to knock his hand away.

If she dies, I think alot of us would give up on this story. Not to mention, since she's May's love interest, it would kinda mess up the entire plot.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Pinkk on May 27, 2015, 04:03:57 pm
I don't know.  May seems like the type who can easily move on.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on May 27, 2015, 04:59:42 pm
I dunno that seems weird. Why talk about someone for 43 chapters and just throw them away? That makes no sense.

Polly is the sorta character the lot of us could say that about, since she's gotten maybe 5 chapters of development, but Bern is kinda like Beckett in Castle. The story makes little sense if she's gone, except as a revenge tale. In fact, I think at one point, the author labels it as a story of two women.

I find it sorta funny that the comic is delayed until tomorrow. Normally when you choke someone, it's extended for a period of time until either the hold is broken or the person passes out. So it's sorta like deciding what to do about the neck, and we're waiting for the author to stop choking her.

I don't believe he has the strength left to crush her throat. But she could easily wake up the victor, instead of finishing stuff.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: 9_6 on May 28, 2015, 11:58:19 am
So if that arm didn't come off right away and mr universe is permitted to hold onto the neck long enough for warden to finish her inner monologuing and if he wants to kill her, how is that neck not snapped in half already?
The man casually wields a planet for a weapon. He would go toe to toe unarmed with someone wielding weapons, punches swords and is all out of fucks to give.
He can do that. You pretty much established it beyond question that he can and would do that.
I mean just look at how his gigantic hand fully wraps around berns stick-like neck.

We are shown 3 panels of neck holding so I can only interpret that as time passing.
Maybe one larger panel of "woah he grabbed her by the neck" and her not yet struggling but instead being surprised, then cutting to black and having warden monologue with no on-camera neck holdings since she thinks about the colosseum and has her eyes closed anyway would have been more appropriate if wardens train of thought wasn't meant to move time along.

Next page she can open her eyes in widened surprise when bern cuts the arm off or does whatever to get out of this (if she does), that would have flowed more naturally since it happens instantaneously. As it should!!
You don't screw around with the neck, you're kinda vulnerable there.
Someone grabs you there, you don't wait, you react and being neck grabbed won't instantly disable your arms anyway.

So berns pained expression panel makes no sense since it implies she just lets the choking happen long enough for her to experience pain which in itself makes no sense since her neck should realistically just be broken like a twig in an instant to prevent her from the reaction that will come next page.
It's pretty much the only safe option muscleman has, really.

Being stabbed and crippled, breaking her neck in response should even let him get away with killing in the colosseum outside of a deathmatch since this turned into an obvious life-death struggle the moment bern impaled him.
Limbs can easily be stapled back on, as established with may, but I haven't seen the dead brought back to life in flipside yet.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on May 28, 2015, 02:39:21 pm
Pffft, Mr Universe. You have noticed that her right hand sword is now nearly to the arm.

Dresden Files had a long speech about exactly this topic.  Yea, found it.

Quote from: TurnCoat
Here's something a lot of people don't know: being choked unconscious hurts.
There's this horrible, crushing pain on your neck, followed by an almost instant surge of terrible pressure that feels like it's going to blow your head to tiny pieces from the inside. That's the blood that's being trapped in your brain. The pain surges and ebbs in time with your heartbeat, which is probably racing.
It doesn't matter if you're a waifish supermodel or a steroid-popping professional wrestler, because it isn't an issue of strength or willpower?it's simple physiology. If you're human and you need to breathe, you're going down. A properly applied choke will take you from feisty to unconscious in four or five seconds.
Of course, if the choker wants to make the victim hurt more, they can be sloppy about the choke, make it take longer.
I'll let you guess which the skinwalker preferred.

Basically, even if you're super strong, squeezing a neck isn't the easiest thing to do.

I think this warden is one of these people with a pet theory. The thing is, social Darwinism is a load of crap. At this point, she's just making a load of rationalizations.
Supposedly, Bern was only strong if she had "moral adaptability (http://flipside.keenspot.com/comic.php?i=2445)" and was "willing to get her hands dirty (http://flipside.keenspot.com/comic.php?i=2447)." Next supposedly, Polly made a bad choice by making her sacrifice for her, and she had no chance of winning (http://flipside.keenspot.com/comic.php?i=2465). Okay, so what about that theory, hmmmm?

In this last chapter, while keeping her principles, she's managed to defeat two people just by blocking. She's screwed up his sword when supposedly it was "over (http://flipside.keenspot.com/comic.php?i=2497)" for her. And she cut his arm off like nothing.  Warden, meanwhile, has been consistently wrong so far but still manages to spew out cynical garbage, and act like it's the truth.

There will always be people who feel its their duty to "educate" the "dreamers" of the world about "reality." (In fact, this was the whole plot of Tomorrowland) Maybe you don't know reality as well as you think you do?

Maybe "that's the way things are" or maybe things are that way because people don't work together to fix things. Maybe because people don't do anything to help people who are struggling that we all have to struggle and fight and compete with other in this world? Warden is okay (helped her with the swords and getting into the match), but if she dropped this nonsense, she could be part of the solution as to making this place decent. People pay their dues, are willing to entertain, the audience gets their entertainment, but this place doesn't need to be the hellhole that it is.

Also, the author apparently doesn't understand medicine. Heart wounds are not automatically fatal.

http://www.cracked.com/article_19698_7-deadly-things-you-wont-believe-most-people-survive.html

You Have a 1 in 3 Chance of Surviving Getting Stabbed in the Heart

33% survival rate is good odds.

Compare that to gut wounds.

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=650313

Kidney wounds can cause rather quick unconsciousness (in a few seconds, and death within the minute), because they mess with blood pressure and cause anaphylactic shock, and that's just one organ there. To say nothing of blood loss.

Thrashing around, as she's likely to do while choking, she'd probably hit his arm by accident (the other sword is already touching him). I have no idea how she figures things are already over. There's still life in her and all she has to do is whack his arm, while her opponent is bleeding to death.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Brion Foulke on May 29, 2015, 10:36:36 am
Limbs can easily be stapled back on, as established with may, but I haven't seen the dead brought back to life in flipside yet.

I guess you forgot that part.

Also, the author apparently doesn't understand medicine. Heart wounds are not automatically fatal.

Hey, Warden is the one who said it, not me!  Perhaps SHE is the one who doesn't understand medicine.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Daisuki-chan on May 29, 2015, 08:37:09 pm
Not all stabbings are equal, except in generalizations that look at stabbings in general (and few stabbings in general would be with swords). If Bern is proficient at heart stabbing and used a sword to wreck his heart, basically into two or more pieces, it wouldn't function all that well, especially if the sword was left in there, and I doubt his odds of survival would be one in three whether or not he received modern medical care (maybe magic would be adequate, but then the warden would probably be expecting this, and she doesn't seem to be). As far as continuing to fight after that, probably not for long, anyway. As for his speed and efficacy at neck-squeezing, as well as his lead in terms of time on Bern, I wouldn't know.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Pinkk on May 29, 2015, 09:41:22 pm
I'd say the Warden's problem is her own mentality.  Maybe she's just been a warden to long or just her town as it's very much a terrible city.  She truly believes one can only be a warrior or a victim and if you lose, you're a victim.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on May 30, 2015, 04:22:59 pm
Limbs can easily be stapled back on, as established with may, but I haven't seen the dead brought back to life in flipside yet.

I guess you forgot that part.

Also, the author apparently doesn't understand medicine. Heart wounds are not automatically fatal.

Hey, Warden is the one who said it, not me!  Perhaps SHE is the one who doesn't understand medicine.

Not dying immediately, so... Also, there's the whole concept of bleeding out.

But nice save.  ;D

It sorta begs the question with the warden though. Supposedly, when one pays off the debt, they're free to go. But I have a feeling (based on what's happening with these three) that this is a pretty rigged game. So I wonder if the reason Warden's so downer is that she's stuck here. That she was prisoner, but ummm circumstances happened, and she wound up staying. It almost seems like the reason she gave those swords is that she wants Bern to prove her wrong.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Caffinator on May 31, 2015, 09:04:56 am
Disarmed jokes? Anyone?
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on June 01, 2015, 01:20:09 am
More like Black Knight jokes. Seriously, did Brion stay up watching Monty Python? I imagine him biting her next.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Stargoat on June 01, 2015, 06:43:13 am
More like Black Knight jokes. Seriously, did Brion stay up watching Monty Python? I imagine him biting her next.

Hey, knock it off. You're being an ass.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on June 01, 2015, 09:00:51 am
Fair enough.  :-X

More seriously, hopefully this will end soon, and Bern will move on. Battle is too long.

Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: sunphoenix on June 01, 2015, 03:26:49 pm
There... that's the look that I have been waiting to see ever since the Warden was introduced... "utter shock"!
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on June 01, 2015, 06:32:54 pm
Welp, everyone called it wrong, no dismemberment (not sure if that refers to hands, or organs).

But she did get to kick him away.

And blow the Warden's mind.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: SAGG on June 02, 2015, 12:16:55 am
Called it... ;D
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: monimoni on June 02, 2015, 02:38:20 am
Hah! Warden seriously needed to shut the f up. But what actually happened here, how did Bern have the strength to kick him? Normally after being choked to death I would imagine that the first thing you would want to do is desperately gasp for air. I mean, she looked about to lose consciousness. And why did the sword burn him? It didn't do that before when he was trying to pull it from her. Is it somehow absorbing oxygen too? :D
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on June 02, 2015, 11:20:59 am
It's actually simple physics.

The guy is holding her. One sword is embedded inside, he chokes her and applies force. Her sword touches him and "burns" him (actually what is happening is more like a super-strong arm grab to his arm, breaking his grip). He lets go. Now here's where physics comes in. She's effectively using leverage/momentum/gravity to push her leg against him. This is not a kick, this is a "my sword is stuck inside you, so I'm using my feet to lean against you to pull the sword out." Note that she showed her foot pressing flatly against is chest, near the sword. This is exactly what's happening, she's pressing against him to pull her sword out. The sudden loss of suction as the sword comes out is knocking him off balance, not her strength. This is also what is causing a massive amount of blood to fly out. Consider it like this, the sword was attached to his body like a giant sideways T, she pulls the line out, and he falls over because he's not attached to her anymore. Effectively, even if she exerts no strength, leaning on the sword like that is 125 lb or so of weight.

 

Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: 9_6 on June 02, 2015, 11:50:18 am
Yeah I don't know.
Not a fan of the string of actions for reasons already mentioned.

I'm glad it's over and we can move onto what happens next now.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: mittfh on June 03, 2015, 12:41:05 am
# When Bern knows more of tactics than a novice in a nunnery... :)

(With apologies to W. S. Gilbert)
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on June 03, 2015, 06:19:30 am
Lolwut?  ??? I don't even remember that event. She touched the ball for all of two seconds while on the ground.

I think she completely failed to realize what this sword does from where she sits, and made a screwy assumption.  Also, that moment  totally looks planned, right?!? (Wrong, starting with her "planning" on getting choked to death)  ;D

Which kind of defines the situation, from where the audience sits they probably see her having a really strong sword, and are filling in the gaps with their assumptions (I wonder what they saw when the sword mirror-swapped those two spells). It's all about perspective and assumptions.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: 9_6 on June 03, 2015, 11:37:01 am
Hm a bit more foreshadowing that this is a ball on a chain being thrown would've been nice, it wasn't clear what the hell the fire thingy that was being thrown was up until now.
I thought it was a yoyo or some sort of sling that shoots fireballs.
Would've been more of an "aha, now it all comes together" moment if that was a bit more clear.

So she took the sand to the face on purpose so she could touch the ball, let him break her leg on purpose so the stored up heat won't fizzle off from blocking and got into a situation in which, "realistically", her neck should have been broken instantly on purpose to get a chance to burn his arm a little so he goes "ouchies"?
Somehow I doubt this was the best option she got against an one-armed man with a broken weapon.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: SAGG on June 03, 2015, 01:23:07 pm
I honestly don't know if what the warden is assuming is true, but her analytical thinking (and assumption) is impressive. I'll make yet another bold prediction down the line: Bern and the warden WILL do battle for Bern's (and quite possible Polly's) freedom. Whether or not Bern tries to escape now, or later. And it will be a battle of epic Flipside proportions, possibly the greatest battle of Bern's life...  ;D
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: sunphoenix on June 03, 2015, 06:05:17 pm
Bah!  Bunch of Nay-sayers.. the lot of you! :) {jesting}

I think its more likely.. Bern was just as shocked when one-arm road up on her sword in his guts to grab her neck as everyone else was.  I think she was in quite a bind, and about to have her pretty neck broke {Which, you try that one-handed?  It would take superhuman strength just to attempt to pull it off AT ALL~ so the fact that it 'seemed' to take one-arm several seconds to make the attempt; I'm not surprised at... Bern is not weak nor is any normal healthy adult person.  To crush someone's neck closed-fisted is simply in the realm of superhuman, he didn't even have his thumb on her windpipe for better leverage}!

BUT, Bern remembered the fact that her sword was still storing the heat from the 'fire' ball and chain and saw a chance to~ heh.. BERN {burn} him in hopes he would break his grip!  The first thing she did on that 'lucky' break was to push him away so he could not try that 'almost fatal' attack again.  I don't think there was any 'planning' going on in her head.  She performed a perfect counterstrike and likely Expected that to take the fight out of the guy.. instead he dropped his weapon and grabbed for her throat.  Bern made a desperate ploy to make him loose his grip... and she got lucky. Nuff' said.

Do not discount luck in a fight... you may be the best swordsman or warrior out there but an unlucky step or turn of fortunes and your still dead!
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: mittfh on June 04, 2015, 12:14:46 am
Obviously, Bern didn't plan on this exact sequence of events. But the only way she could adequately fight him was to get up close (so making it difficult for him to use his weapon) - I imagine she heated up the one sword with the intention of making him drop his weapon and concede defeat, but she didn't expect him to not block her thrust with the other sword into his abdomen, or for him to try strangling her.

What the sequence of images doesn't adequately show is that when he lunged to grab her throat, she probably started moving the heated sword at that point, so it made contact shortly after the grab. What appears to take ~10 seconds or so in the sequence would only have taken a couple of seconds in reality - but is slowed down so we can get the exposition from Warden.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on June 04, 2015, 06:56:46 am
I honestly don't know if what the warden is assuming is true, but her analytical thinking (and assumption) is impressive. I'll make yet another bold prediction down the line: Bern and the warden WILL do battle for Bern's (and quite possible Polly's) freedom. Whether or not Bern tries to escape now, or later. And it will be a battle of epic Flipside proportions, possibly the greatest battle of Bern's life...  ;D

I thought so too. I also think that the Warden's filter of how events were will give her an advantage in said battle. The bruiser she's fighting now figured out what's up, and this is precisely why the battle is so hard (plus his crazy determination). The Warden sees it as a hot sword, because she has a filter around what Bern can and can't do, and has been consistently seeing Bern as just fighting well, yet not seeing the reality of what is happening. When she gets outmatched, her filter sees "just as I thought, she isn't a real warrior." Bern proved her wrong, and rather than admit it, "Oh she got lucky and/or planned this." Maybe she isn't a "real" warrior, but she can hold her own. It isn't that the Warden underestimates her though, but rather, she completely sees her as worthy and simultaneously completely missed this battle because she knows the swords are magical but doesn't understand them.

Fact: She was not in contact with the sword for long enough for it to still be hot, and if it was, it would have conducted into the weapon when she blocked it. Not to mention burning her hands. Fact: Her swords actual power is to take the force with one sword, and transfer it into another. Fact: None of this is shown in the previous comics (I checked) meaning Warden is taking minute details and spinning it to match what she saw.

That is, the "hot" sword was actually giving pain that he was giving her. But, what the audience is explaining it as (since they're far away and can't see directly, and because filtering it another way is at odds with their understanding of how magic works) is as a "hot" sword. Or maybe Bern is wrong about the sword. Truth is in eye of the beholder, I guess.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: SAGG on June 08, 2015, 05:51:16 am
So, the previous page on 6/5 was half of the 6/8 page?  ??? Curious. Anyway, the guy's still ALIVE?!  :o He's one tough dude, as well as his "team mates"....
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: sunphoenix on June 08, 2015, 10:11:03 am
Bern - "...do you admit defeat?"

'One-Arm' - "...is a request for sex out of the question?"

Bern - "!!! ...yes."

'One-Arm' - "...{sigh}... darn, ok, You win."
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: TheCollector on June 08, 2015, 11:00:36 am
Damn you flipside! I've been hating on Bern and how pathetic she's been this Coliseum arm for what seems like forever and then you give us that ultra bad ass middle panel and make me fall in love again! Damn it!
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: crazy_razor on June 08, 2015, 03:42:03 pm
Just wanted to pop in to say that I still love Bern best and this arc has reminded me why. Aaa.......... :-*
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on June 09, 2015, 12:16:12 pm
Yay! Battle won!

Two worries though...

One, the crowd may call for blood in order for her to get A rank.

Two, I'm not clear how the bidding went on those handicaps. As in, Warden said something about how all previous bets are in place or something. Does that mean that while Polly outbidded her, she also has to spend a few nights with strangers? Or is it all on Polly?
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Kiran on June 10, 2015, 05:57:17 am
Now finally seeing the outcome, tell me that Bern's father was a smart person and that he managed to borrow some money and he bet on Bern winning here, cause with the prize won he would be able to easy buy her and Polly marks out.

Makes me curious how this will really play out, if the fights are to the death for both sides and not only Bern slaughter, then if Bern won't kill them now in cold blood, maybe she won't be given the A rank after all?
Seeing how Warden acted so far I bet she would do everything and use everything she can to make Bern wrong here and to show Warden's harsh viewpoint is the only truth here in the colloseum.
But then i expect the audience to "boo" her and Warden be giving Bern a B rank or something for her efforts.

Also I wonder if the swords are genetically marked, like no one that Grant and his blood relatives could use them fully, and what their real power is, if Crest super sword could have 2 modes depending on the side of the blade used, then Bern's ones may have even more uses than just absorbing the attack power and then sending it back and also being a storage, they maybe also work as dispelling feature to magical weapons making them useless after.

I kidna want to see how Bern will want to repay Polly after all this will end, first Polly taking half of her marks on her and later throwing herself willingly under the bus for Bern so Bern could stay pure in her morality slate.
I suppose Bern offering Polly sex is out of the question? :P
I doubt Polly would even want that since that would feel forced anyway on similair level of what Warden did to them with the options.
Can Bern have a room in her heart for someone more than just Maytag? We saw the dream, but is this just only sexual attraction or there's something more going here in Bern head?

I would want to see Bern willingly doing it with someone whose she would start having feelings for, and then see how May would actually react to this situation. What if Bern won't want to share Polly with May, and she will want to have two exclusive relations? ::)
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on June 10, 2015, 09:12:43 am
Modes? This isn't digimon.  ;D His sword just had a stun effect for the flat of the blade.

That said you have a point (also, in the portion above, the Warden actually has had her back, as she pulled some strings to get her the swords and the battle; it's just she has a narrow view), as from studying how these swords work, I have a pretty good idea how they work.

It's called transference. They aren't antimagic so much as able to transfer heat, cold, force, physical power, etc. Given this, I bet if she wanted to, she could use them as healing swords (by transferring injuries to herself, though). And I'm sure there are other things she can do. It probably can "dispel" magical weapons (by pulling the magical power from the weapon, and having it on short-term storage). And it probably can cut through magical forcefields.

Bern would probably be okay with sex with Polly, but thankfully not random strangers. That said, I think Bern has a strong need right now to remain faithful. It's one of those things couples discuss together, because cheating is not okay, but May might be open for a threesome if asked.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Stargoat on June 10, 2015, 10:53:54 am
Huh. I thought those guys were S Rank or something.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: sunphoenix on June 10, 2015, 01:43:50 pm
Huh. I thought those guys were S Rank or something.

Nah, they were all 'A' Rank..cause they just were not quite skilled enough to be 'S' Rank.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: SAGG on June 10, 2015, 02:39:42 pm
Why do I feel sickened at the crowd's roar of approval for Bern's victory? What a bunch of monsters...  >:(
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Stargoat on June 10, 2015, 06:32:22 pm
Why do I feel sickened at the crowd's roar of approval for Bern's victory? What a bunch of monsters...  >:(

They didn't know they were trying to kill her.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: SAGG on June 11, 2015, 12:27:21 am
Why do I feel sickened at the crowd's roar of approval for Bern's victory? What a bunch of monsters...  >:(

They didn't know they were trying to kill her.
How do you know that? Remember, these people like to see blood...
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: sunphoenix on June 11, 2015, 03:05:47 pm
Why do I feel sickened at the crowd's roar of approval for Bern's victory? What a bunch of monsters...  >:(

They didn't know they were trying to kill her.
How do you know that? Remember, these people like to see blood...

Try to keep in mind... it was not the audience that set up or demanded the arena, and most fights are not to the death as that is a breach of the arena rules.  Like even modern sports fans they like to see the big hits in full contact American Football, or the tireless resilience of a star Boxer... including the brutal 'no-holds-barred' of the UFC.  Its not that the audience per' se wants to see blood, it couched and spun in the media as exciting, battles between skilled warriors, for high stakes.  I'm sure most of the 'fans' never even ponder the darker side of the entire institution.

And even the most 'family-friendly' sports can be turned into something VERY ugly when the administrators running it are corrupt of any morals!
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: mittfh on June 12, 2015, 12:47:18 am
The House is certainly going to make a lot of money from the betting pool... :)

Now while it would be tempting for the Colosseum to bring out Bern regularly for fights, it would be more prudent to keep her for those who've got too big in the head and think they're invincible - teach them a lesson as well as drawing in the crowds. Besides which, the more fights she's involved in, the more she loses the element of surprise as word of her tactics spreads.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: ipatrol on June 12, 2015, 06:17:57 am
Why do I feel sickened at the crowd's roar of approval for Bern's victory? What a bunch of monsters...  >:(

They didn't know they were trying to kill her.
How do you know that? Remember, these people like to see blood...

Try to keep in mind... it was not the audience that set up or demanded the arena, and most fights are not to the death as that is a breach of the arena rules.  Like even modern sports fans they like to see the big hits in full contact American Football, or the tireless resilience of a star Boxer... including the brutal 'no-holds-barred' of the UFC.  Its not that the audience per' se wants to see blood, it couched and spun in the media as exciting, battles between skilled warriors, for high stakes.  I'm sure most of the 'fans' never even ponder the darker side of the entire institution.

And even the most 'family-friendly' sports can be turned into something VERY ugly when the administrators running it are corrupt of any morals!

Historically though, blood spectacle was not uncommon. Most Roman gladiator fights didn't end in death either; gladiators were quite expensive to train. The Romans were used to these sort of events, and they were even told it was civically virtuous because it reminded them of Rome's long military history in the same way that movies like American Sniper get billed as "patriotic" today.

These people are, to the Marvolloans, criminals, and therefore are likely not inclined to care much about what happens to them. I do organizing for prisoners and such, and I swear today that attitude has not much changed. As for the system behind it? Of course they don't know about its dark side, because those who do are almost certainly not in attendance.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on June 12, 2015, 09:22:32 pm
Let's think about boxing. It's not set up as a bloodsport per se. But because of the better culture, it becomes extremely corrupt. Not only that, because blows to the head are not discouraged (well, it involves a knockout, rather than like sumo a simple ringout, and while you could in theory knock someone out through body blows, the results in long term might be internal bleeding), it is easy to over time crush someone brains out. This is a sport with known potential for corruption.

Or football, where 300+ lb guys are encouraged to tackle (pinning would be alot safer) meaning a high-speed impact with 300 lb of weight. These might as well be human cars. To say nothing of also extreme brain injuries because of the extremely hard helmets (what was wrong with leather headgear again? Seriously). This is a sport where there might be corruption, but we would not know about it from the setup.

The audience doesn't think about the lethal aspects of the event, if it's not commonplace. If it is commonplace, they can become desensitized to it. But in the cause that it is rare, there is such a thing as a planned accident.

Let's use football as an example again. Suppose a player was really unpopular, some idealist type that made a lot of changes and upgrades to the sport. The teammates love them, the audience doesn't know about this, and the officials hate them. Under family-friendly rules, let's say the teams are paid money to arrange a little "accident". Sometime during the 3rd quarter, the player has the ball after being hiked back, and is preparing to throw it. Instead of guarding the player, the team fans out, as if preparing to catch the pass (but in fact, leaving that player completely  open) while they figure out who to throw it to. In comes the other team, slamming together against this player. From the audience's perspective, it's a bad play. They don't think "that guy is going home in a body bag."

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/oct/03/american-football-third-us-teen

I don't know that it's to that point yet, but still...

So back to the "games". We know that this country, because there are no taxes, everything including basic utilities is run by business. We also know that it is a constitutional anarchy. The games, then, are every bit as corrupt as boxing, and worse, the audience is probably told that the players are healed after every game, and repeatedly told about the penalty (as in, propaganda that the games are safe). Whether people are alive and wounded, or very clearly dead, they are likely walked off the field in much the same way so as the audience sees what they expect to see, not someone killed because they were a trouble maker, but X fighter beat Y in battle, so rather than a bloodfest, they just think of it as an exciting fight.

There is also the fact that there is the "no force" culture. You can conceivably have that, but there are certain side effects, like that some violent drives get pushed into the background and people subconsciously crave things like gore and rape. That is, without reasonable situations where people would fight to defend themselves (think about Bern's original situation, and how she was basically not even allowed to threaten the guy), the outlet for some of their flight or fight hormones manifests in weird ways.

Hopefully, between her dad betting on her, and possibly the warden betting on her, her debt can be paid off. Otherwise, I don't know how she'd hold up in future battles, except against opponents that didn't understand her sword. Hopefully, she can use the downtime to figure out more of what it does.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: sunphoenix on June 13, 2015, 05:42:46 am
AHHH... the Power of Love! :)
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: mittfh on June 15, 2015, 12:55:34 am
Nice, decent accommodation - but as ever, there's bound to be a catch - possibly revealed with this conversation with the Director (although last time he wasn't the most fluent person in the country, with his suspiciously specific denials about rape...)
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Pinkk on June 15, 2015, 05:44:54 am
I see that nice room, they have the two of them together...Bern is going to cheat!
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Stargoat on June 15, 2015, 07:39:04 am
Why do I feel sickened at the crowd's roar of approval for Bern's victory? What a bunch of monsters...  >:(

They didn't know they were trying to kill her.

There goes that theory. If the prison director is making such bets, then murder must be a known and accepted option in Marvolo. This kind of changes everything in the prison, and maybe town.

Where was Brion's post about what goes there again?
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: sunphoenix on June 15, 2015, 10:32:57 am
Why do I feel sickened at the crowd's roar of approval for Bern's victory? What a bunch of monsters...  >:(

They didn't know they were trying to kill her.

There goes that theory. If the prison director is making such bets, then murder must be a known and accepted option in Marvolo. This kind of changes everything in the prison, and maybe town.

Where was Brion's post about what goes there again?

Not necessarily.. he IS the director and certainly 'in-the-know' of things going on in the prison... things the general public are not likely aware of.  I could see a private betting pool between the officials running the prison on special events.

But you are correct, this is pretty damning of their entire "justice" system...!!!

Bern in her 'crime' did not hurt anyone, did not kill anyone, and only intimidated the possibility of force ...Only to get a professional healer to heal on their agreed upon time that they said they would wait for her to acquire the funds to save a man's life...  AND simply because Bern refused to be their sex toy or maim herself or torture/kill another person ALL for their Sick pleasure... they decided to have a hit-squad of killers brutally murder her in a arena spectacle that they intended to make money off both with admission fees and side bets!

The Marvolo 'government' are the lowest of the low... a mockery of any real government.

ANY veneer of "rule of law" or legitimacy as a justice system is clearly a sham!  In my opinion Bern would be quite justified in just rampaging her way through them all and fighting her way out of there... regardless if they declare her outlaw!  Considering their "justice" system, or lack thereof... I would consider it a badge of honor to be declared Outlaw and Criminal by their 'society'.. if that's what you want to call the thuggery they are touting as a Government, Law, and Justice system!!!
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: SAGG on June 15, 2015, 12:50:10 pm
Why do I feel sickened at the crowd's roar of approval for Bern's victory? What a bunch of monsters...  >:(

They didn't know they were trying to kill her.

There goes that theory. If the prison director is making such bets, then murder must be a known and accepted option in Marvolo. This kind of changes everything in the prison, and maybe town.

Where was Brion's post about what goes there again?

Not necessarily.. he IS the director and certainly 'in-the-know' of things going on in the prison... things the general public are not likely aware of.  I could see a private betting pool between the officials running the prison on special events.

But you are correct, this is pretty damning of their entire "justice" system...!!!

Bern in her 'crime' did not hurt anyone, did not kill anyone, and only intimidated the possibility of force ...Only to get a professional healer to heal on their agreed upon time that they said they would wait for her to acquire the funds to save a man's life...  AND simply because Bern refused to be their sex toy or maim herself or torture/kill another person ALL for their Sick pleasure... they decided to have a hit-squad of killers brutally murder her in a arena spectacle that they intended to make money off both with admission fees and side bets!

The Marvolo 'government' are the lowest of the low... a mockery of any real government.

ANY veneer of "rule of law" or legitimacy as a justice system is clearly a sham!  In my opinion Bern would be quite justified in just rampaging her way through them all and fighting her way out of there... regardless if they declare her outlaw!  Considering their "justice" system, or lack thereof... I would consider it a badge of honor to be declared Outlaw and Criminal by their 'society'.. if that's what you want to call the thuggery they are touting as a Government, Law, and Justice system!!!

Yeah! I've been saying that all along!  ;D First chance they get, get the heck out of there! These people are blood thirsty monsters!
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Pinkk on June 15, 2015, 04:17:03 pm
I wouldn't say it's just limited to the one town.  Even today, in any country, this type of entertainment is easily popular.  Public executions, floggings, autopsies, brawls...all forms of entertainment at one point.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Daisuki-chan on June 15, 2015, 05:33:52 pm
Bern in her 'crime' did not hurt anyone, did not kill anyone, and only intimidated the possibility of force ...Only to get a professional healer to heal on their agreed upon time that they said they would wait for her to acquire the funds to save a man's life...  AND simply because Bern refused to be their sex toy or maim herself or torture/kill another person ALL for their Sick pleasure... they decided to have a hit-squad of killers brutally murder her in a arena spectacle that they intended to make money off both with admission fees and side bets!
Well, we know that Bern probably wouldn't have followed through on her threat of force, or at least not to a maiming/killing degree, but realistically the law has to take threats of force very seriously (this is no comment on the specific consequences actually enforced upon Bern), or it becomes easy to just threaten people (which is very frightening and coercive, as from the victim's perspective they're in grave danger) and then just claim one wouldn't have followed through on it (even if one would have, something the victims have to consider).

Also, as I recall it she didn't threaten just to heal him on time, but to heal him for free (or perhaps (or perhaps not from the healer's legitimate perspective) she would've paid the pittance she could, but this makes little difference). It may sound nice to force free (to all but the healer) health care, but things may seem a bit different if one is the healer with theoretically limited ability to heal per day (or other period of time), and someone comes along and demands that you comply in healing someone for nothing or a pittance. Even if you had lots of healing per day the fact that it's a job implies that the overall market for healing is not unlimited or nearly unlimited. So either it's a good job (that you invested a lot of your time and/or money (even if just via opportunity cost) into, for which you could reasonably expect a good return on, lest you be swindled) and the thief is taking a lot of your money by either eating resources you needed to work that day (or other period of time) or at least by heavily diluting the market by encouraging more people to try to take your healing by force (which would result in a massive, probably catastrophic income loss if successful), or it's not a good job and you need every bit of money you can get, in which case you most especially can't afford to lose resources or lose your market by supporting the idea that healing can simply be taken if the would-be recipient just gets violent (and/or claims to really need it and be unable to pay the market price, etc.).

Incidentally, even a generous healer probably couldn't afford to do background checks on everyone (that the customers would ultimately have to pay for, no less) to determine if they really can pay, and if so how much, especially if the healing is needed immediately or quickly (which would also tend to be when the healing was the most difficult and/or resource-/time-consuming and customer-expensive). So even if you try to enforce such generosity as a moral upon healers in general it can still be wildly impractical and ruin their ability to maintain a steady enough income, especially in relation to their investment into becoming a healer in the first place (I assume we all prefer having market-priced healers to having no healers, and the latter is a consequence of the job becoming a poor investment).

Basically, if the government won't pay for healing and the government won't protect healers from being forced to heal at below market prices, healers will find their situations highly tenuous and likely will leave for better governed lands (changing jobs is possible, but less attractive given your investing into becoming a healer, especially if you can't hide the fact that you used to be a healer well, as then people will simply hit you up for healing on your new job) or will choose to not become healers in the first place, as it would be seen as a job for suckers that don't mind being robbed. In either case healing would become rather hard to come by if you lacked the wealth to personally hire and guard a healer, for personal or "general" (very expensive) use. Obviously the government is leaving some things to be desired, but unless there's reason to believe that effectively abolishing healing would push enough relevant people over the edge to successfully and without excessive cost overthrow the government and replace it with a superior enough one (I believe it's unknown to us whether such violent revolution is truly possible, as well as whether the new government would be better or worse, and by how much) it would seem better to keep the market for healing functional.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Stargoat on June 16, 2015, 06:31:51 am
The punishment is not a violation of the social contract. Bern used force to demand a service. Punishment was meted out. Bern agreed to the punishment. This is all reasonable and thus far she has no cause for complaint.

The problem is in the manner in which the punishment was meted out. Bern broke the rules of the jail by refusing to fight. What did she think was going to happen? It's foolishness. But the rabid response by the authority, including the attempt on Bern's life, violates the agreed upon terms. That was a murder attempt by authority against Bern. No one in authority seems to have worked to avoid it.

Bern has a right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. In commission of her crime, she stole someone else's right to liberty and pursuit of happiness. Therefore, it is natural that hers be revoked for a little while. That was just. Bern agreed to the terms of her captivity. She could have languored in prison, instead chose to be a part of the arena. But the attempt at murder violated the social contract. Bern and those who support her cause have the right to violently oppose this authority (in a manner consistent with preserving the natural rights of others) until the conditions have been rectified.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on June 16, 2015, 08:10:14 pm
Why do I feel sickened at the crowd's roar of approval for Bern's victory? What a bunch of monsters...  >:(

They didn't know they were trying to kill her.

There goes that theory. If the prison director is making such bets, then murder must be a known and accepted option in Marvolo. This kind of changes everything in the prison, and maybe town.

Where was Brion's post about what goes there again?

Not necessarily.. he IS the director and certainly 'in-the-know' of things going on in the prison... things the general public are not likely aware of.  I could see a private betting pool between the officials running the prison on special events.

But you are correct, this is pretty damning of their entire "justice" system...!!!

Bern in her 'crime' did not hurt anyone, did not kill anyone, and only intimidated the possibility of force ...Only to get a professional healer to heal on their agreed upon time that they said they would wait for her to acquire the funds to save a man's life...  AND simply because Bern refused to be their sex toy or maim herself or torture/kill another person ALL for their Sick pleasure... they decided to have a hit-squad of killers brutally murder her in a arena spectacle that they intended to make money off both with admission fees and side bets!

The Marvolo 'government' are the lowest of the low... a mockery of any real government.

ANY veneer of "rule of law" or legitimacy as a justice system is clearly a sham!  In my opinion Bern would be quite justified in just rampaging her way through them all and fighting her way out of there... regardless if they declare her outlaw!  Considering their "justice" system, or lack thereof... I would consider it a badge of honor to be declared Outlaw and Criminal by their 'society'.. if that's what you want to call the thuggery they are touting as a Government, Law, and Justice system!!!

Quote
Basically, if the government won't pay for healing and the government won't protect healers from being forced to heal at below market prices, healers will find their situations highly tenuous and likely will leave for better governed lands (changing jobs is possible, but less attractive given your investing into becoming a healer, especially if you can't hide the fact that you used to be a healer well, as then people will simply hit you up for healing on your new job) or will choose to not become healers in the first place, as it would be seen as a job for suckers that don't mind being robbed. In either case healing would become rather hard to come by if you lacked the wealth to personally hire and guard a healer, for personal or "general" (very expensive) use. Obviously the government is leaving some things to be desired, but unless there's reason to believe that effectively abolishing healing would push enough relevant people over the edge to successfully and without excessive cost overthrow the government and replace it with a superior enough one (I believe it's unknown to us whether such violent revolution is truly possible, as well as whether the new government would be better or worse, and by how much) it would seem better to keep the market for healing functional.

Uhhhh, just a heads up.

Unlike certain governments, they make no pretense at law or justice or anything like that. They are a constitutional anarchy governed by a commercial punishment system. It's very much a business, and everyone knows it. If you pay a commercial group to enforce law, they figure out how to make it profitable.

Government doesn't pay for anything. Because they have basically no taxes, and people do what they want. If there is a need (say, electricity) people hire someone to take care of it. Given this, yes medicine can be stingy, and yes there is some pretty sketchy justice system. Bern made the mistake of putting her norms into this. But it's not really subject to them. Mind your space, and it treats you okay, just don't threaten anyone.

Also, where's my mini-fridge?

Quote
The punishment is not a violation of the social contract. Bern used force to demand a service. Punishment was meted out. Bern agreed to the punishment. This is all reasonable and thus far she has no cause for complaint.

The problem is in the manner in which the punishment was meted out. Bern broke the rules of the jail by refusing to fight. What did she think was going to happen? It's foolishness. But the rabid response by the authority, including the attempt on Bern's life, violates the agreed upon terms. That was a murder attempt by authority against Bern. No one in authority seems to have worked to avoid it.

Bern has a right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. In commission of her crime, she stole someone else's right to liberty and pursuit of happiness. Therefore, it is natural that hers be revoked for a little while. That was just. Bern agreed to the terms of her captivity. She could have languored in prison, instead chose to be a part of the arena. But the attempt at murder violated the social contract. Bern and those who support her cause have the right to violently oppose this authority (in a manner consistent with preserving the natural rights of others) until the conditions have been rectified.

This is all very interesting, but these rights can be suppressed (not revoked, mind, not while you live). If you are a prisoner, you are not free, and largely cannot pursue happiness. So you effectively have to earn your freedom. Given this, it is not reasonable to assume that life is guaranteed. It isn't that they are trying to kill her so much as they don't care enough to stop her from dying (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MurderByInaction) at bottom D rank.

This is not the US, it's more like the Roman Empire, minus centralized power.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: sunphoenix on June 17, 2015, 12:23:18 pm
The punishment is not a violation of the social contract. Bern used force to demand a service. Punishment was meted out. Bern agreed to the punishment. This is all reasonable and thus far she has no cause for complaint.

The problem is in the manner in which the punishment was meted out. Bern broke the rules of the jail by refusing to fight. What did she think was going to happen? It's foolishness. But the rabid response by the authority, including the attempt on Bern's life, violates the agreed upon terms. That was a murder attempt by authority against Bern. No one in authority seems to have worked to avoid it.

Bern has a right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. In commission of her crime, she stole someone else's right to liberty and pursuit of happiness. Therefore, it is natural that hers be revoked for a little while. That was just. Bern agreed to the terms of her captivity. She could have languored in prison, instead chose to be a part of the arena. But the attempt at murder violated the social contract. Bern and those who support her cause have the right to violently oppose this authority (in a manner consistent with preserving the natural rights of others) until the conditions have been rectified.

Most eloquently put, far better than I did! :) I agree completely with this point of view!
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: mittfh on June 18, 2015, 01:04:56 pm
"Keep up the good work, and you'll be paying down those marks in no time!"

Translation: "Keep fighting as well as you did today, and you'll be increasing our profits in no time!"
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: sunphoenix on June 18, 2015, 10:07:16 pm
"Keep up the good work, and you'll be paying down those marks in no time!"

Translation: "Keep fighting as well as you did today, and you'll be increasing our profits in no time!"

Yeah, 'Sex-plotation' is our business after all!  Nothing draws more audience than two sexy scantily clad hotties kicking Ass in our arena!  We don't Even have to pay you for the work... win-win-win! {At least for us the arena admins}... don't die ...too quickly! :)

..All of these people as Ass-hats!!!
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: SAGG on June 19, 2015, 03:24:59 pm
You're DOGGONE RIGHT "It's pretty awful", Polly, for that blood-crazed crowd to cheer the fight!  ::) As soon as you guys can, get the heck out of Dodge!  ;D
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on June 19, 2015, 06:37:40 pm
"Keep up the good work, and you'll be paying down those marks in no time!"

Translation: "Keep fighting as well as you did today, and you'll be increasing our profits in no time!"

Yeah, 'Sex-plotation' is our business after all!  Nothing draws more audience than two sexy scantily clad hotties kicking Ass in our arena!  We don't Even have to pay you for the work... win-win-win! {At least for us the arena admins}... don't die ...too quickly! :)

..All of these people as Ass-hats!!!

Room and board is actually reasonable. In this day and age, we forget that these scraps of paper are only valuable if they add up to living wages, and many people are actually living outside their means.

Like ummm, possibly the arena guys. Sure they could be living in mansions, but seriously, I don't envy what they have to go through to earn it.

Remember, the definition of slavery is not "didn't pay you money" it's "didn't pay you a living wage and/or the work you are doing is such that you should be paid way more for putting up with it." Trust me, I've worked at places that technically did pay me but not steadily enough to live on, and the job was degrading. Still felt like slavery.

They still need to escape though, as they can't keep hurting people just to live.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: sunphoenix on June 19, 2015, 10:51:31 pm
... ... ok, NOW... I'm a little disappointed in Bern. :(

Polly - "Snowpatch... are you alright?"

Bern - "Yes... ~{blah-blah-blah}"

{Sigh}... I still like her but.. her response comes off to me a Very Selfish.  It all about how SHE felt.. what SHE has had to go through...!

Were I in her situation... the thing that would bother me the most...

 - "No.  I'm not alright... look at what I've asked you to do for me?!?!  Whoring yourself out to those sick bastards...for me!  I'm so ashamed.... how can I EVER make that right?  How can I EVER say I'm sorry enough... what kind of friend AM I to have allowed them to put you through that!!!"

{Shrug}.. I don't know its just bothering me... maybe I'm just being too judgmental.. or its that DAMNABLE Male Chivalrous behavior I get myself into trouble over that makes me want to protect the honor, virtue, and dignity of women... and not just see them as sex-objects to be exploited?  It really annoys me the prevalent attitude that is so UGLY in our culture but is 'tacitly' accepted and approved ...that is O.K. for men to view women as mere objects of entertainment.

I hate that.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on June 21, 2015, 06:52:34 pm
Polly asked her how she felt, and she answered.

Also, again, she never asked this. She got outbid. Reread the thing. Even had she tried to do it, "nope, I'm gonna bid 10 for each you do, so you're hurting me." "...Okay I'll stop."

Bern seems selfish, maybe, but saying this would be so out of character it wouldn't be funny. If Polly was like "So not looking forward to spending time with a bunch of men/women/dogs" Bern would be like "There has to be some other way! You don't have to do that." As it is, Bern got outbid and threatened, so she's not gonna push the issue. Also, not reminding Polly of this, is kinda a sore point.

"I'm sorry you have to sleep with..." "^&#@*$ Bern, why did you bring that up?"

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/tact

Also, I've known real-life escorts. I've almost been an escort. Being preachy and moralistic does not make you come across as unselfish. It makes you come across as a jerk. Polly chose this, saying this belittles her sacrifice.  I had a friend who did garden work, and she wanted me to help her hook up with a guy (bringing me along). I was like "fuck that, don't wanna" and she's now kinda an ex-friend. In general, yes, it is a sad fact of life for women. But it's something Polly decided.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: 9_6 on June 22, 2015, 03:18:09 am
Ah, why would they get those butt-covering flaps on their new "uniforms"?
That kind of defeats the purpose of "catering to the audience" by wearing thongs, doesn't it?
If fetishization was the goal, I picture more fancy "higher rank" clothing of that kind to look more like bondage harness (http://image.dhgate.com/albu_481664194_00/1.0x0.jpg) rather than just adding flaps.

I do wonder if this clothing really is that "impractical for battle".
It's very much inspired by roman gladiators, at least this doesn't appear to hinder mobility, there isn't much to grab onto for enemies and they are still allowed to bind their breasts together instead of going topless though I do wonder if going topless would even be a hindrance?

Bern doesn't appear to have the megaboobs that would bounce around too much and get in the way, so is the boob cover thing of practical nature or  are boobs sexualized in flipside world like they are in ours and everyone would fall into a deep psychosis upon seeing female nips, even in this extreme kind of setting where sexualization is the goal?

Or is Brion just too chicken to put uncovered boobs into flipside.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on June 22, 2015, 02:27:43 pm
Have you considered counseling for your sex addiction?

Never even thought about this. It's an outfit, it's for fighting, we don't need to fixate on it. Gladiators are scantily clad because it's cheaper to do so than give them full armor. At a certain point, crossing into sex fetish zone and the fighters would complain.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: 9_6 on June 22, 2015, 04:34:46 pm
No. (http://flipside.keenspot.com/comic.php?i=2099)
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Daisuki-chan on June 22, 2015, 07:20:04 pm
I believe that Flipside has had uncovered breasts in the past. I couldn't say exactly when, though. The only thing that comes to mind right now is Maytag bathing with Regina.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Brion Foulke on June 22, 2015, 08:30:07 pm
Yes, in the past there are sometimes exposed breasts.  I want to avoid doing that too often as it can be seen as gratuitous.  As for why the colosseum doesn't make the fighters fight topless or naked... imagine that their reasoning is something like this: "if you show too much, it's actually less tantalizing!  It's more titillating if you leave a little to the imagination!" 
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: 9_6 on June 23, 2015, 02:34:33 am
Well I remember this is kind of a dumb question anyway.

Sexual repression has been the core theme of flipside that sparked it into existence with maytags defining characteristic being that she rejects it so of course everyone in flipside world has at least the same level of irrational "exposed female chest psychosis" we do but not quite "omg cover your ankles" levels of medieval repression.
It wouldn't really suit the overall tone if there were truly equal views on both sexes being topless in one part of the world with female breasts not being seen as inherently sexual at all. The contrary would make more sense.

That kind of clashes with that sudden bout of progressiveness when they force both men and women into equally revealing clothing in that arena though or maybe flipside world is just overall a lot more accepting of homosexuality compared to reality.
Nobody really cared a lot about Bern being a lesbian after all, we just didn't see a gay romance playing out on-screen and being established as something normal nobody really cares about so far, just lesbians and straight guys if I remember correctly and that's why all the half-naked guys appear out of the ordinary.

Either way, I hope we address what Pollys 20 days sex slave status entails for her, now that she voiced her disillusionment with how things are being handled in that country.
Bern only being able to watch while a friend negotiates themself into some kind of physical of mental harm for her sake starts to form somewhat of a pattern now.

Oh also bulmabriefs144 didn't even catch that the arena clothing was meant to sexualize the fighters so perhaps that indicates that the arena clothing designs are a bit too plain, too close to gladiators which were half naked but not really really meant to be sexualized... I think...?
I thought this was a commentary on bikini armor in some games but you didn't go full retard with it to highlight just how stupid it is, especially when "played straight".
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Brion Foulke on June 23, 2015, 11:14:37 pm
I thought this was a commentary on bikini armor in some games but you didn't go full retard with it to highlight just how stupid it is, especially when "played straight".

It's not meant to be a commentary like that, because I don't actually believe that's stupid.  I'm more against the criticism of it.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: 9_6 on June 23, 2015, 11:46:52 pm
Really?

I get the message of "violence isn't enough, people also need to get off of it" out of this collosseum arc so far and drew a parallel to how a lot of fiction lumps sex and violence together in a matter of fact-y way.
It gets kind of bizarre in some mmorpgs where the violence is this assembly-line-esque repetetive task (much like the collosseum turns it into a business) so the purely fanservice, 0 practicality bikini armor designs just add to how abstract "violence" is being handled and I thought you wanted to pull that into an actual setting to highlight how odd it is.

Especially since you threw a character like Bernadette who has been anything but a fan of fetishized violence into a setting like that.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Brion Foulke on June 24, 2015, 12:25:36 pm
Well, you can read whatever you want into it, of course.  But if it were meant to be a criticism of sex and violence in media, it would be hypocritiical since I'm doing the exact same thing.  The bikini gladiator clothes are like that not because of any particular statement but just because I think it follows logically.  The point of the colosseum is not only to punish lawbreakers, but also to make money, because this is a highly capitalistic society.  And sex sells.  I think it wouldn't make sense any other way.

There is meant to be commentary behind the colosseum arc, but it's of a different nature.  I guess I shouldn't spell that out.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: sunphoenix on June 24, 2015, 12:25:54 pm
OKAY... que the Luther Vandross or Isaac Hayes music for the much awaited make-out scene between Bern & Polly {no sweet pure-bread there}! :)

But seriously... Polly earned that kiss.  It was a pure expression of heartfelt appreciation... which I'm CERTAIN Maytag would approve of! :)
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on June 24, 2015, 02:57:56 pm
No. (http://flipside.keenspot.com/comic.php?i=2099)

Totally not fanservice.

Quote
I believe that Flipside has had uncovered breasts in the past. I couldn't say exactly when, though. The only thing that comes to mind right now is Maytag bathing with Regina.

Maytag got stripped nude by that sword attack with the guy wearing the Xibulba collar.

But really, the fanservice seems to be currently following rules of plotline. As in, you couldn't reasonably expect Bern to go braless for like 30 pages. You could possibly expect Polly and Bern to at some point get it on, and this would be a plot reason for showing bare breasts. Or when Polly is making out with a bunch of people to pay off that debt.

Quote
Oh also bulmabriefs144 didn't even catch that the arena clothing was meant to sexualize the fighters so perhaps that indicates that the arena clothing designs are a bit too plain, too close to gladiators which were half naked but not really really meant to be sexualized... I think...?

Actually, you will notice that on men and women, the uniforms basically cover the sex organs. They aren't to wear much, but not just because of sexuality. It's cheap to make, a few strips of cloth to cover the essential bits, so they can pretty much get away with it because it entertains those watching the show. It's also degrading. As in, it makes you feel less powerful or worthwhile to be stripped almost naked and forced to fight. Don't believe me? Explain the rationale behind hospital gowns.  Now explain why people don't tend to quibble with doctors after being forced into the gown, left alone for hours, and told to poop in basins instead of proper toilets. You can think it's all about sex, but actually, it has little to do with it.

It also appears you can buy in for clothing or weapons, in a piecemeal fashion. The A ranks had capes, the old guy was fully clothed (thank god), and the girl had armor on one side.

This scene was adorable.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: ipatrol on June 26, 2015, 03:28:22 am
Quote
Quote
I believe that Flipside has had uncovered breasts in the past. I couldn't say exactly when, though. The only thing that comes to mind right now is Maytag bathing with Regina.
Maytag got stripped nude by that sword attack with the guy wearing the Xibulba collar.

I know it's been a while, but there have been several such instances throughout the series. Who could forget when Maytag was magically stripped nude in front of the audience for the radio show contest? I would think if males could remember anything, it would be breasts  ;) .

Quote
Don't believe me? Explain the rationale behind hospital gowns.  Now explain why people don't tend to quibble with doctors after being forced into the gown, left alone for hours, and told to poop in basins instead of proper toilets. You can think it's all about sex, but actually, it has little to do with it.

I was gonna say, that's not even about power. Clothes are removed because they aren't sterile and can hold dangerous substances (like pesticides, cleaning products, adsorbed gases, pathogens, etc.) "Left alone for hours" is a staffing issue, since I assume one isn't talking about an unstable or otherwise critical paitent. As for the basin thing, last I checked if you are ambulatory there's nothing stopping you from getting up and locating the nearest restroom. The staff probably just assume that if you need to ask, it means that you can't get up and need their assistance.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on June 26, 2015, 03:42:23 pm
I dunno. I try to avoid hospitals as much as possible. The fact remains, even though your clothes might contain contaminants there is no good reason for the sort of assless chaps thing going on with hospital gowns. The hospital is cold, and the ventilation system can spread disease through coughing and puking. As noted on several articles about anal sex, that area is disease sensitive.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/04/01/health/hospital-gown-fashion-makeover/

Yes, some of it is staffing. But some of it is that doctors are arrogant and on a power kick. "This patient was rude to me, so let's ignore him for awhile." And some of it  is outright incompetence. My dad was in emergency for upwards of six hours. He had a side collision while driving into an intersection that had power outage from a hurricane. I was not allowed to ride in the ambulance, unless I got treated (no joke, being family didn't mean a thing, so I get to walk upwards of six blocks to a hospital where they took him).  I got to the hospital, and it was two hours, before they even checked him in. Seriously, they didn't know who he was, and I wasn't allowed to go in do to stupid rules. Then I call my mom, and she gets there from another town, squawks, and finally they let me see him. The doctors were useless. Triage (ppl get separated into not serious enough to treat, dying regardless, and dying but we can prevent it). He's not critical enough that we have to perform surgery, so rather than staffing even one doctor on him, hey ummm, yea. The sooner you treat, the sooner we can go home and be out of your hair. A quick cast, pain medicine, and a wheelchair home. That's all he needs. Nope, they sat and joked with each other, while my mom was freaking out, and we get to figure out what to do with our car (no insurance after that one). So yea, I wouldn't put it past them to pull stuff like that.

Basically, if you have an organization that is not funded by the state, they will try to save money (ditto, if the state sets cost regulations). They will do so by cutting material costs however possible (hence the hospital gown comparison, sure maybe there's different reasons, but it is a cheap as heck gown). If Bern had been given D Class weapons to go with her armor, this would basically be some cheap sword that would break after a few swings, and she'd be told "not my problem" if it broke.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: 9_6 on June 27, 2015, 03:47:15 am
When I got my appendectomy, I had to wear that gown naked exactly 1 time right before the surgery.
That clothing needs to be able to be removed while you're lying down, knocked out or when you can't really get up on your own so they don't need to cut the clothing off your body in case things need to be done.
After the surgery, I could wear underwear or my own clothing and there were no mandatory bedpans either so I don't see how this is comparable to degrading prisoners at all.

Also the fact that this motherfucker is literally going to cut you open soon might be a larger factor in you not quite being in the mood to be argumentative since you're usually having bedsheets over you when wearing the thing anyway.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on June 28, 2015, 04:14:12 am
I agree with it being short (about that length), loose, and removable.

What I don't buy is the absolutely shabby material cost, and the the fact that it provides zero protection for your bum from illness. Simple fix make it closed in back, but stretchy so it can be adjusted easily. It's not just a fashion concern, it's a health concern.

They have better designs they can use (https://www.google.com/search?q=better+patient+gowns&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=vtaPVa7ICcG0-QGO34Ig&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1366&bih=609). They just aren't using them.

Who knows how many sick people before you have been lying down on that sickbed? Oh sure, they clean the hospital. But ummm, I worked as a janitor for a brief stint, cleaning hospitals. I don't recall ever spraying the beds, we mainly dusted and mopped. I wouldn't lie on that bed if I could help it. Not with an exposed rear end.

http://www.beckershospitalreview.com/compensation-issues/72-statistics-on-hourly-physician-compensation.html

I typically make $10 an hour. Are you telling me that at over $200 an hour, they can't cut maybe $5 hourly from each doctor's paycheck and pay to make a better design? Even a buck would probably pay to have one with the butt covered.

 The comparison is that the prison gladiator thing could give prisoners better clothes to wear. Better treatment. Better lives. But they aren't. This is not because of some secret fetish thing. It's because they are cheapskates and want to squeeze as much money out as possible. The people running this show are basically too busy making money hand over fist, but "we're struggling" or "times are bad" (or "we've had a recession lately") whenever anyone asks them to shell out any money for human rights. What? You think people like worrying about the fact that before they came, people were even getting raped (http://flipside.keenspot.com/comic.php?i=2067)? No thanks. 

Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: ducky_worshiper on June 28, 2015, 07:02:25 pm
So um, I get that you probably had a bad experience, but at the hospitals around where I work (I cover a large part of rural Oregon), the gown they put people in doesn't expose your butt. It actually closes at each shoulder and has snaps that can undo the gown from the shoulder for easy access to your body if necessary medically. I also was allowed undergarments aside from when I was being actually prepped for surgery.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: SAGG on June 30, 2015, 12:15:19 am
Nice to see Bern FINALLY admit she was weak, but why doesn't she simply jump to the point and take Polly's place instead of checking Polly's emotions?
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on June 30, 2015, 04:11:50 pm
I've known a girl like this (her name was Paula, so it even sounded similar). Polly likely will try to hurt her if she messes with her decision. She can offer to share, but not to take it instead. It just doesn't work that way.

Anyway, we can quibble all we want about how Bern didn't really earn stuff, and we have to earn everything in life. But life doesn't necessarily work that way. Bern's dad sold everything he had to give her a fighting chance. Polly put herself into sex slavery so that Bern could have a better life.

Yes, I know it's easy to see this as an obligation to pay off. But the fact of the matter is, these were not favors, they were love offerings. Trying to undo their sacrifices is like saying "I don't appreciate your gift." Bern can ask if she can share this with Polly. But likely if Polly wanted that, she would have allowed it earlier. You have two people who are noble and stubborn. Bern can't win here, because sex slavery is exactly what Polly doesn't want for Bern.

No, Bern should not offer to take her place. She should instead try to fight for Polly's freedom from the deal.  Challenge someone, and be like, "if I lose I share her price, if I win, I buy her freedom from this."
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: sunphoenix on July 03, 2015, 12:51:03 pm
... ... ok.  So Biron is actually going to..."go there..."

I know we all joked about steamy sex-scenes of Polly 'paying Bern's way', before... but now, I think I'm gonna be sick.  Its one thing to tongue-in-cheak fantasize about erotic-prison orgies... but now that we're finally here the reality of it all is, heart-breaking!  This is not fun or erotic... its painful.. I think I'm going to be sick.  Polly is a brave, devoted, beautiful woman who is so devoted to someone who she believes is of a purer spirit than her that she is willing to do this horrid thing on her behalf.

This is not going to be a steamy "reluctant" love-scene.. but what it truly is.. the Rape of spirit of this ...lovely woman.. a demeaning of her Heroines heart!  I'm not enticed or aroused by this... I'm truly sickened and saddened...

...and the fact that THIS didn't occur to me sooner ... kinda makes me feel a bit ashamed I was joking about it earlier.

This is truly ugly.  I'm not sure I can watch... and not feel dirty as well...

I think I want to cry...
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: SAGG on July 04, 2015, 12:34:38 pm
Soooo, Polly's going to have to go through 19 days of this, and Bern will have to fight 19 days of battles to get through? What's the way this goes again?  ???
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: monimoni on July 04, 2015, 03:34:45 pm
No, all this sacrifice was just to let Bern do this rank-up match.
I am really surprised that Bern is able to sleep through all this. She could've tried a little harder than "Are you sure...?" to convince her. But I guess Bern doesn't really want to have sex with random dudes for 19 days; she would've probably done it for one time (or whatever the initial price was; why Polly set the price so high is beyond me). Can't blame her, but I was expecting her to try some kind of maneuver to fix this.
I do hope that the comic will fast-forward to some point after the deed has been done.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Kiran on July 05, 2015, 01:46:39 am
The thing here which hurts the most is that Polly is completely innocent in all of this and she is taking the whole blame from Bern only cause she loves her so much(if we recall she took half of Bern's marks and now the ugly punishment for the rank-up).
At least seeing her reaction to Bern's determined face last page she can go to her happy place completely cutting out from her body while doing the deed, at least that I hope prostitutes do when doing their things to stay sane.

It is horrible fate, but since author decided to show us this in detail what is Polly fate here, and it's looking like that, and we already know Polly did this once time before, then it must be the thing Brion said before that violence and sex fanservice regarding especially females characters, since no one is naive enough to expect for example Crest being put in such trial at all soon(makes me curious if there will be male gladiator sex slaves here too), sell and it's a lure to the more extreme readers, and seeing past posts there are people here who wanted to see Bern raped to get "character development" and see in details what happened with Polly anyway so it's not too shocking that author wants to cater to them too...

Or at least I hope this is the case, we see this cause Bern will enter the scene due to following Polly here, and Bern will witness what Polly really does for her safety each night.
And that can basically go in few ways, most even having worse fate as my mind tells me:
- Bern tries to stop it and it turns ugly, either she is punished or raped, and it also sets of Polly which might even end with Polly execution, or even more punishment added,
- Bern steps in and starts undressing too and make out with Polly and the ugly guys to help here, and Polly will go with it charmed by Bern to lose her resolve,
- Bern showing up somehow stops it and we get someone else helping them seeing how their love each other and all that which is most unlikely seeing how dark these Bern chapters became.
For me from story perspective Polly sex slaving pages are needless fanservice of worst kind if they would not be connected with Bern seeing that.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: sunphoenix on July 06, 2015, 08:01:13 am
Thank you Biron... that was in good taste.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: ipatrol on July 06, 2015, 06:29:36 pm
Thank you Biron... that was in good taste.
Agreed. Some things are best left unsaid. To do so otherwise would be excessive. We already have enough of a rape culture as it is; the last thing it needs is more tinder for the fire.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on July 06, 2015, 07:27:52 pm
No, all this sacrifice was just to let Bern do this rank-up match.
I am really surprised that Bern is able to sleep through all this. She could've tried a little harder than "Are you sure...?" to convince her. But I guess Bern doesn't really want to have sex with random dudes for 19 days; she would've probably done it for one time (or whatever the initial price was; why Polly set the price so high is beyond me). Can't blame her, but I was expecting her to try some kind of maneuver to fix this.
I do hope that the comic will fast-forward to some point after the deed has been done.

She set it that way so Bern would just drop the issue. She wanted Bern to get her stuff done without being all screwed up. Geez guys, hasn't anyone done something for you, without letting you pay them pack? She sees herself as already tainted and wants to keep Bern from getting screwed up similarly.

Her motive right here (http://flipside.keenspot.com/comic.php?i=2431).
And here (http://flipside.keenspot.com/comic.php?i=2441).

You see Polly as an innocent, but she's done worse, as far as she's concerned (remember, perspective is a good portion of this, and many rape victims feel like they deserve it). Bern very much would want her to be free from this, but she will need to do it some other way.

Also, this skip may very well be conservation of detail. Since Bern's not awake to stop it, we don't see it.


Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: SAGG on July 08, 2015, 05:55:49 am
Uh-oh. I don't like this. Something tells me the warden's going to give them info they WON'T like...
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: sunphoenix on July 08, 2015, 06:56:24 am
Uh-oh. I don't like this. Something tells me the warden's going to give them info they WON'T like...

OR... the Warden is there to offer them another...'dubious' opportunity to raise a rank/pay down marks...etc...

One, I'd think on the surface will 'seem' an opportunity... but really is not...AND one they are not really being given any actually choice to refuse...

Corrupt people are Very good at finding underhanded ways to cheat and apply 'leverage' on persons within their power.

Then again.. she may be there to first congratulate them on their success... and then Second warn them that they have pissed off the 'Arena Owners' with their stubborn unwillingness to loose or be defeated... in spirit or moral stance... and that the "kid-Gloves" are coming off!
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Kiran on July 08, 2015, 07:25:05 am
Actually looking at today's page and the previous two ones(kinda thanks for the skip on the Polly case but seeing how the story goes I doubt we are from the hook either), it more looks that the fat guy will want to pay a hell lot of marks of Bern and Polly debt if his new favourite duo will pleasure him for some time, maybe he even had Polly in these two days time but he now will want to do everything to get Bern too in a package...

Or I think too much on the negative scale of things and the fat wealthy guy is a good one and due to sportmanship rules he will help them out of true altruism.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on July 08, 2015, 01:53:38 pm
I think they're gonna tell Bern and Polly that it's important they throw the match. Something about odds looking too good. Which of course is something Bern isn't okay with. If she refuses, she'll probably hit them with some obnoxiously hard match.

Kinda sucks. Her blade is indomitable, she has the skill, and she has a great teammate, but corrupt betting systems are what they are. Hopefully, this thing will pass and Bern will actually be able to pay down their stuff.

In all likelihood, Bern will be too much of a boy scout (sorry, girl scout doesn't really match because mainly all they do now is sell cookies) to outright agree to throw the match (plus seeing as how she almost died  last time, yeaaaa... no). But she might meet her halfway, and agree to make the battle look much harder than it actually is, while people are still betting. Some goodwill goes a long way, though she still wants to win.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: sunphoenix on July 10, 2015, 06:04:32 am
Yep, I called it, another dubious 'opportunity'... one I'm sure is tailored so that Polly cannot interfere and is enticing enough for 'sweet, somewhat gullible' Bernadette, that she can't refuse... it is ALSO CLEAR TRAP! 

These vindictive cruel bastards want HER badly!  It so perverse how wicked-hearted miscreants want to corrupt  innocent and kind-hearted people.  Guess it just makes them feel more justified with their evil ways.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on July 10, 2015, 08:48:20 am
I seriously don't think anyone cares about Bern's sexual purity, guys.   ;D

I know how gambling works in boxing and horse-racing, from watching movies, and it tends to run like the following.

http://flipside.keenspot.com/comic.php?i=2593

High bidder sees a favorite, and the house will either: (a) set things up so the favorite is provoked (either by "treats or threats") to throw the match, giving them the money of what would have been a clear winner, (b) set it up to look like a long shot, arrange a deal with the highest bidder, and make him win like crazy while everyone else is fooled, or (c) fail to do either of these, and eventually they run into a "no contest" situation where the person is too good, and they have to give handicaps to them. This was done in a movie about horse-racing and eventually they had to hobble the horse. It still won, but they had to retire it eventually.

Given what we know of Bern and Polly, I can imagine B but not A.

Also, love this flat "Get out."   
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: SAGG on July 11, 2015, 12:16:59 am
"I want you to fight me. If you win, you'll have your freedom. If you lose (fill in the blank)"... ;D
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: jamoecw on July 12, 2015, 09:32:16 am
everybody is talking sex and corruption.  maybe it is something like having them fight nude from then on out or something.  the previous organizer of the arena had rape matches, which means there is a market for sexual arousal.  it was considered cruel to have people rapped, having people nude is a far cry from that, but still fulfills the sexual arousal side of the market (not to mention extra fan service for the comic).

keep in mind that the arena is both a business and a public service.  excessively having people forced into sex is pretty much what happened in the past, and thus the public service aspect of the arena would get flak due to not really changing.  as a business you want to cater to your market.

as a comic simply having the country she's in as being completely bad without any real upside (corruption so rampant that those with money can do what ever they want, to the determent of others) is cheap, thus i am willing to bet that the warden won't pull a second 'bad deal' out to simply gain at the expense of another, when it is certainly possible to gain by offering something far more palatable.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on July 12, 2015, 04:48:18 pm
Nah, there is an upside. It's a free country as long as you mind other people's space. You wanna turn tricks? Have a con artistry business? Nobody cares. Free country, free enterprise, and no taxes. Just don't bully ppl. There's plenty good about the country, but only if you can understand how to live without hurting others.

Of course, it's easier for people with a business mindset than people who are only good at stealing.

Nudity wouldn't cut it as a deal. They'd need more than that.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: SAGG on July 12, 2015, 06:21:11 pm
Why do I think a country like this one wouldn't survive long in the real world? Corruption is the rule rather than the exception, and it seems to be everywhere. (pauses) Then again, the Roman Empire lasted what, a thousand years...?  ???
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on July 13, 2015, 04:25:22 am
You'd be right and wrong. First off, out of the gate, it's an anarchy. There are no known anarchies in this world. The closest thing is Switzerland, which allows all citizens to basically carry around guns with them, and has meeting summits for world leaders. How does it maintain sovereignty? By having everyone armed to defend the country. Second closest is the Holy Roman empire, which last years and years, despite being a disorganized mess.
"Nature abhors a vacuum," they say but actually it's just fear and uncertainty. In any case, no such restrictions exist here. Since it's there, there are forces both for its stability, and for its destruction. On the one hand, it is likely to cannibalize itself either through  taxes, corruption, or something else. On the other, it has a healthy economy, doesn't appear to want to change (meaning no voting for leader, and no revolt, and no revolt), is a tax free state, and really isn't a state meaning there are no rules. It also runs a justice system very effectively on bread and circuses. Yeah there are many things kinda sick about the country, but I can see why Polly used to say she loved the country.
It's not for everyone, clearly. But between that and creepy wizards controlling everyone with smoke and mirrors, I think I trust a government that doesn't lie about what it is more. It's disorganized, it's greedy, and its prison are hypocritical. I don't think they claimed to be any utopia, whereas the other place has a whole magic kingdom that we later find out is fake, supported by science when most of the citizens are blissfully unaware of how the tech they use works or even what a machine is.

Anyway... this filler strip is kinda funny, because this is largely what Flipside has done with the gender roles of the characters. Bern, Maytag, and other women seem very much in the lead. The men on the other hand, are largely in the background.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Caffinator on July 14, 2015, 03:56:18 pm
Dang. I didn't know Bern was sexist.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on July 15, 2015, 06:32:58 am
I would imagine mildly so.  As in, more of a "guys are icky" deal (hence most of her love interests seem to be girls) than a sorta "men shouldn't be allowed to vote" thing.  She thinks guys that actually show talent (like big I-beam guy) are cool with her, but probably sees alot of guys that are all talk and no action. Or who are pushy jerks that want to rape her (http://flipside.keenspot.com/comic.php?i=2069).

Keep in mind we have seen Maytag have sex with either gender, but Bern seems to be gold star lesbian. At least some of that is from either sexism, or really bad experiences with men in the past.

Pffft. Bern is sexist, maybe. Maytag on the other hand, is a sex fiend.

http://flipside.keenspot.com/comic.php?i=2123

Something occurred to me when rereading this. The guy said Harker used to be in charge, and he had a rape penchant, and went on and on about it. Yet Warden calls the guy Harker. Given that I think she'd know the difference between two people... is it possible this guy has a Jekyll and Hyde personality? That Harker "isn't in charge anymore" because he's gotten control of him?

I saw Inside Out too! It was so cute...  :-*
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: TheCollector on July 20, 2015, 05:52:02 pm
Hmm... Not sure how to feel about this. On the one hand it's sick, I mean c'mon. On the other hand though, it's better then being a slave to that fat guy for 19 more days. Plus y'know, not like it's something they both wanted at one time, still, sick. Can't say I wouldn't like to see what would happen if they got together like that though. If I'm being honest, as much as I love May and Bern's sweet scenes, they never really made much sense to me. Then again, that's usually the most lasting kinds. Who knows.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Caffinator on July 20, 2015, 07:35:04 pm
Yes please? Err um. I mean... what a shocking thing to ask of them!! :o
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Kiran on July 21, 2015, 08:21:12 am
Ok, I laughed a bit :P
And Polly face, how to try to defend Bern honor while not rejecting such perfect offer.
And Bern?
She was willing to become a sex slave and have sex with random strangers for the night and even more with such determined face, but I think this situation is different cause she has feelings for Polly if the dream is any indication...
But it should not be a problem for both remembering all awful past choices if this offer is indeed true; from other side showing something such private where I think both would prefer their first time with each other be something private and special than it being a sex show for random lesbian porn fan.
Tough decision, if Polly would want to keep Bern pure and all that she should pass the offer and reject it, since her having sex with Bern for some guy watching eyes would still make Bern dirty in a way.

Dang. I didn't know Bern was sexist.
How she is a sexist?
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Wulf on July 21, 2015, 08:37:04 am
Well, Bern did just very recently offer to replace her for her remaining 18 days if she ever felt the need. This seems like a fair compromise if I ever heard one. Har, har.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: sunphoenix on July 21, 2015, 12:12:28 pm
These vindictive cruel bastards want HER badly!  It so perverse how wicked-hearted miscreants want to corrupt  innocent and kind-hearted people.  Guess it just makes them feel more justified with their evil ways.

Again I don't think this is about solely the fans or the money.. these Sick SICK Bastards want to make Bern compromise her ethics... just to make a point that everyone is a corruptable as them! 

I mean come'on.. you think that Bern and Polly's conversations in their 'gilded cell' are not being monitored? Seriously?!?  These people ARE plain EVIL... and they take perverse pleasure in spreading the evil of their own avarice. Yes, the Arena coordinators will make a profit at this cause of one jaded fan's fantasy fulfilled, the fact that this DIRECTLY goes against Bern's professed monogamous fidelity... is NOT just a coincidence!  They REALLY want to erode her noble and honorable heart!
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: SAGG on July 21, 2015, 01:44:14 pm
Well. This suddenly came out of right field...  :o I suspect Polly, while being abhorred by the offer like Bern, very secretly would be somewhat curiously delighted because, well, it's Bern, who's she's loved all these years. I could actually see Bern possibly considering it, if nothing else because she feels she owes Polly for Polly's sacrifice. How would this affect her relationship with Maytag, though...?  ???
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: jamoecw on July 21, 2015, 05:35:56 pm
Nah, there is an upside. It's a free country as long as you mind other people's space. You wanna turn tricks? Have a con artistry business? Nobody cares. Free country, free enterprise, and no taxes. Just don't bully ppl. There's plenty good about the country, but only if you can understand how to live without hurting others.

Of course, it's easier for people with a business mindset than people who are only good at stealing.

Nudity wouldn't cut it as a deal. They'd need more than that.

actually you can bully people, but not physically.  if you would remember how she got into this mess, she promised to do anything if she got aid.  basically trading a future amount of labor of potentially massive amounts for some basic healing.  stabilizing her father temporarily would allow them to name their price, and if she reneged of the deal they could end their stabilization, resulting in her father's death.

likewise let's say a criminal flees one of the northern city states with a ton of gold.  then buys up a food market in a small village.  now as we all now food doesn't grow year round, thus he has all the food for a certain distance (minus those that stockpiled their own supply).  he could ask from the poor that didn't have enough to stockpile food for some additional labor or something else that seems reasonable, but in effect increases the cost.  he can then leverage such gains to buy a wider radius of food control.  then those in that initial village now can be charged even more due to the hardships of traveling further to get food, in addition to the fact that more people would have run through their stockpile.  some would have left, but not all for various reasons.  those that didn't or couldn't leave are now his personal slaves, living and dying at his whim.  by leveraging this labor force he can increase his influence area, trapping more people and getting more slaves.  as long as no one is allowed to rise up against him he can continue, unless someone else with money decides to counter him, at which point they would either replace him a the slave owner or be a benevolent leader.  in any case freedom from bullying is the last thing you have.

granted if it was a true anarchy then he would have to worry about physical security against rebellion and such resulting in more operational expenses due to unethical treatment of his lessers.


as for nudity being insufficient, it is a matter of how much the sex slaving costs vs. how common nudity is.  imagine that he pay $1000 a night, that people would only be willing to pay $1 for nude female fighters over clothed female fighters, and the stadium holds on average 300 people:

sex slave deal for 18 more nights equals $18000.
it would take 60 days of nude fighting to match the sex slaving.
it would take 3 months at S-rank to get all paid off, which is 50% more money.
if they stay as A-rank it'll take 6 months, which is double the money.

given what we know of this society it is easier than reality to pay for sex, especially for the rich, which means $1000 is high.  we also know that there is a draw for sexual themed fights given the costumes and history of rape fights, greater than reality, so $1 is a tad low for extra drawing power.  therefore this is a very conservative guesstimate.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: SAGG on July 22, 2015, 05:10:55 am
Wow, Bern. You actually went a bit farther than I thought, though I called it in terms of you wanting to make it up to Polly. Clearly, Polly figures something is up, and it probably is. It's too easy...
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on July 22, 2015, 05:28:40 am
Bern is a bit of an idiot for jumping at deals. She can't help it. She's honest, and wants to help, and doesn't tend to think ahead. But yea, she's better with this than with a random stranger. The real problem of course is there is another person involved (remember? May?) So this isn't cut and dry.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: sunphoenix on July 22, 2015, 05:41:03 am
But honestly... was there any other choice that would have left her heart not feeling sick?  Yes, she is honest, she does want to help her dear friend out of a demeaning and terrible duty.

I expect Bern will tell Maytag of her infidelity and ask for forgiveness... I'm sure May will understand considering the terrible circumstances.  Maytag herself said something to the effect that friends are the people you suffer for... and if a little infidelity would save a friend willing to sacrifice so much for Bern from such a demeaning and degrading experience.. That's what friends are for and are supposed to do for each other!

Besides.. I think Maytag will like Polly... and would likely be the one to suggest a triplet relationship.  ;)
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: gyoza on July 22, 2015, 05:58:36 am
Just gonna throw out a prediction: Bern and Polly's new "fan" is the Benefactor.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Kiran on July 22, 2015, 10:48:38 am
But honestly... was there any other choice that would have left her heart not feeling sick?  Yes, she is honest, she does want to help her dear friend out of a demeaning and terrible duty.

I expect Bern will tell Maytag of her infidelity and ask for forgiveness... I'm sure May will understand considering the terrible circumstances.  Maytag herself said something to the effect that friends are the people you suffer for... and if a little infidelity would save a friend willing to sacrifice so much for Bern from such a demeaning and degrading experience.. That's what friends are for and are supposed to do for each other!

Besides.. I think Maytag will like Polly... and would likely be the one to suggest a triplet relationship.  ;)
Did May ask for Bern forgiveness when she was cheating on Bern constantly with people who interested her in the past? ::)

Also we should remember that May was herself willing to cheat on Bern in her own shitty circumstances with Moss, if Moss wanted he could have had her like that, and May was willing to do it even after promising with Bern not to cheat on her anymore just to get out of there to be with Bern.

Bern plot pretty much is the same, with one small difference with Polly taking the blame of Bern wanting to see May faster.
And well it indeed sounds a bit bad if Bern only motivation to do it with Polly is to repay the debt she put on Polly herself by her own actions or rather lack of them, it would be nice seeing Bern opening up and confessing she is into Polly like that and that she wants to do it with her.

I really doubt Polly and May will ever meet, this whole chapter point looks to be directed to change Bern a bit, both in her fightning mindset but also to break some sexual barrier.

And when Polly role will end I doubt we will see her anymore, not with her loving Marvallo country so much she will want to stay here anyway than going with Bern where she knows she can't really win Bern from May and polly also strike me now more as a monogamous person than someone who want to share her love with anyone, this sex if it indeed will happen will be her one time goodbye gift from Bern.

Still it would be amusing as hell if Polly gone with her and May and they would meet.
Makes me curious how the hell will they know if Bern and Polly came, with guys it's easy, but with both being girls it can be a bit tricky.
Magical orgasm meter device?
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: mittfh on July 22, 2015, 02:53:37 pm
I get the impression Bern interpreted the Warden's offer as Bern + Polly having sex with A. N. Other(s), rather than with each other - so you could argue that that is the catch.

Still, there could be worse catches than being coerced into having lesbian sex with one of your best friends...
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on July 22, 2015, 08:27:03 pm
These vindictive cruel bastards want HER badly!  It so perverse how wicked-hearted miscreants want to corrupt  innocent and kind-hearted people.  Guess it just makes them feel more justified with their evil ways.

Again I don't think this is about solely the fans or the money.. these Sick SICK Bastards want to make Bern compromise her ethics... just to make a point that everyone is a corruptable as them! 

I mean come'on.. you think that Bern and Polly's conversations in their 'gilded cell' are not being monitored? Seriously?!?  These people ARE plain EVIL... and they take perverse pleasure in spreading the evil of their own avarice. Yes, the Arena coordinators will make a profit at this cause of one jaded fan's fantasy fulfilled, the fact that this DIRECTLY goes against Bern's professed monogamous fidelity... is NOT just a coincidence!  They REALLY want to erode her noble and honorable heart!

You cannot be corrupted unless you choose to be. Last I saw, Bern wasn't into abstinence. So the real issues are that Bern doesn't give in to the violence of her culture, and the biggie right now is Maytag.

You cannot be corrupted without your failing. As in, if Bern is doing something in a moment of weakness, this is her being corrupted. But if Bern does something "corrupt" for a noble reason, is it atill corrupt? Or has she made a choice that she believes  in,  in which case would that would be noble, since it is her choice not being manipulated by Warden.

As much as she loves May, this is someone she also loves. It was May's decision to be exclusive, she didn't make Bern do this. So this is a choice she can make according to her own morals. Now, here's the real thing. She loves Polly. But she doesn't want it to be cheap. To be like bad porn.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: UmberIsSexy on July 23, 2015, 09:33:01 pm
Yay for Polly + Bern jailbird hookup!
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: jamoecw on July 25, 2015, 12:43:25 am
i imagine that this might be a way to shake may's love for bern.  basically trying for a moment of weakness type of decision.  otherwise it is just a footnote in the whole scheme of things.  of course maybe there is some sort of hidden catch, but if the only two rules they have to follow is being nude and cumming, then they don't really have to make each other cum (they could self service), having someone watch you is a bit off, but far less than knowing someone is getting forced into sex on your behalf (or cheating).

option A. have polly pay for bern's weakness, resulting in significant guilt that never really goes away.
option B. sleep with polly, end up having the weight of it until she can resolve the issue with may and then herself.
option C. cheat and masturbate, having to deal with the minor guilt of cheating a cheater.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Kiran on July 25, 2015, 03:54:04 am
Thing is if the rich guy behind the mirror won't think that Bern and Polly cummed enough for his taste and if he will treat it as disservice to him then I think the whole deal can be taken off and Polly will have to return to being sex slave or Bern and Polly will have to do it more with each other while the guy watches till they will make each other cum in such way the guy can accept the act.

I'm quite surprised they didn't ask about it again and just gone with the wind of things.
After all this is all arbitrary and everything is solely based on the guy's reaction to the lesbian act, because the guy who is paying enough to take Polly off from 18 days of being sex slave to paying customers will have the final say in this, and we really don't know if he is a good guy and just harmless rich pervert who gets off from seeing girls doing each other as just a watcher who are his favourites or if he has darker side if his wants aren't met.

Stil if you compare such paid hobby to guys who paid for girls being their personal sex slaves, mutilating themselves or mutilating others, can be considered a good one, cause he only intrudes on girls privacy during the sexual act.
And I really hope this whole exposure won't make Bern suddenly into such things and won't change her ways of who she is.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on July 25, 2015, 10:37:42 am
Bern was always into such things. With May, and it's heavily implied that Polly and her were an item at one time.

The jealousy thing may be an issue, but it might make Bern change her mind about the open relationship, and allow other people in. Remember, May originally wanted that, but decided that if Bern wasn't doing anything, the infidelity was an issue. Bern might just say now "whatever, we've both been unfaithful, I forgive what you've done if you'd forgive this time."

Also, why do I feel like Bern is using "the right thing to do" as an excuse for some good sex with a friend? Pervy Bern...  ;D
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Kiran on July 26, 2015, 02:36:58 am
Bern was always into such things. With May, and it's heavily implied that Polly and her were an item at one time.
You didn't read the extra Bern x Polly origin chapter from Book 7, did you?
I don't know if it's ok to spoil things here which would give you proper context about how they met.
But then you are right in one thing Bern was into Polly from start, and Polly was also heavy in love with Bern but they were never an item.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on July 26, 2015, 09:51:43 am
I read it, but got Polly mixed up with the other girl. It was kinda a complicated story.

I also read May's origin story (2nd, not the one that got spoiled out, but the meeting Bern on the bridge) so that's my response to people who say that the whole Bern/May thing they never got. May was a "shy" (emotionless from 1st) girl who was rejected by most people who met her, and Bern loved her still.

Bad Apple, I think it was. Nah, that's not it. Dunno where that scene is.

Urgh... anyone know? Doesn't seem to be in Book 0 either.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Brion Foulke on July 27, 2015, 11:56:57 am
The scene you're thinking of is in chapter 11: http://flipside.keenspot.com/comic.php?i=407
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Keneto on July 27, 2015, 06:02:16 pm
wowza. I've been tuning in every now and then, waiting for the swords to finish beating Bern's foes and there's this genius development they have to make out and end of chapter
But I won't complain if Maytag is back
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: Daisuki-chan on July 28, 2015, 03:02:18 am
The scene you're thinking of is in chapter 11: http://flipside.keenspot.com/comic.php?i=407
Younger Bern looks so adorable here (http://flipside.keenspot.com/comic.php?i=413). :-*
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on July 28, 2015, 07:40:37 pm
This is pretty much the defining reason why Maytag loves Bern.

http://flipside.keenspot.com/comic.php?i=409

A lonely girl who everyone rejected because she was emotionless and weird was completely accepted by someone who knows what it's like to be alone.

http://flipside.keenspot.com/comic.php?i=415

And this is why Bern loves Maytag. She values her honesty.

So, most of all, Bern owes it to May to tell her about the thing with Polly. The worry is that she won't accept her, but I'd hope she would.
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: SAGG on July 29, 2015, 12:04:44 pm
I'm a tad confused. Is Brion going to go to Maytag now? I thought he was going to finish this chapter first with Bern and Polly...?  ???
Title: Re: Chapter 43: Discussion
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on July 30, 2015, 01:38:30 pm
Brion usually ends chapters to line up vertically, usually in multiples of 15. Her agreeing to do the job was the end of the fighting arc, and the beginning of Maytag. There's a sort of smooth break between the two where the stories haven't to do with the other.