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Comics Discussion => Flipside Discussion => Topic started by: Brion Foulke on February 21, 2013, 10:20:36 am

Title: Chapter 36: Discussion
Post by: Brion Foulke on February 21, 2013, 10:20:36 am
This is the thread for discussing Chapter 36: The Thin Man.  What's up with this guy?
Title: Re: Chapter 36: Discussion
Post by: Kiran on February 22, 2013, 12:04:48 am
I thought the older guy was the Thin Man...
Looks I was mistaken, well for sure the guy looks to be very thin judging from cover if he is the one in the middle.
If he experimented on people then all of his crew are similiar experiments who were a success?
I like the designs of new characters as always, variety is a nice feature here.
Title: Re: Chapter 36: Discussion
Post by: Stargoat on February 25, 2013, 11:54:07 am
Sometimes I forget how awesome Maytag is.
Title: Re: Chapter 36: Discussion
Post by: ducky_worshiper on February 25, 2013, 12:58:49 pm
Sometimes I forget how awesome Maytag is.

Pages like this remind me just how unlikable I find Maytag.
Title: Re: Chapter 36: Discussion
Post by: SparcMan on March 07, 2013, 07:20:29 am
I'm smelling a troll page today.
Title: Re: Chapter 36: Discussion
Post by: Brion Foulke on March 08, 2013, 03:13:44 pm
That was a real page, of course, but you're right that that panel is meant to screw with your mind a bit.
Title: Re: Chapter 36: Discussion
Post by: Kiran on March 09, 2013, 01:04:32 am
Wow, what a creep, like some version of Mad Hatter...

It really makes me wonder with how everyone on TM side tells it's all done willingly, but remembering BM gory memories it's something else completly...
Title: Re: Chapter 36: Discussion
Post by: weirdguy on March 10, 2013, 11:00:16 pm
I'm kind of disappointed that he wasn't the bear
Title: Re: Chapter 36: Discussion
Post by: sunphoenix on March 13, 2013, 07:20:23 am
Sometimes I forget how awesome Maytag is.

Wow.  Maytag is soooo cute!  Blondes can ALWAYS get over on me.. darnit! :)

But on to the subject of the Thin Man... I think he does EXACTLY what his compatriots say he does!

I'm sure that he gives his subjects EXACTLY what THEY ask for... but there is a catch to that.  What people want is not always in their best interests!

I'm ALSO sure that Maytag would agree that people are ...in general VERY good at fooling themselves in to thinking all sorts of stuff about themselves that is patiently NOT TRUE!

Humans are very good are self-delusion and Magic as is presented in this universe is many times HARSHLY TRUE!  What you think you are and what you REALLY are colors  your magic or the magic that is used upon you.

So the thin man may only be doing what his subjects ask of him to do.. but in truth they can some times be VERY UGLY within their own hearts... their own hidden flaws that they don't wish to face or admit to.. and it ... grounds out in the TRUTH that magic reveals.

Maytag would be the first to agree I'd bet that people can be VERY UGLY inside even though they may personally think they are paragons of virtue!  With hidden or displaced anger fears, hatreds, preconceptions, avarice and the myriad of other personal flaws that we all dislike or worse do not see in ourselves!

May tag seems.. at least to me VERY adept as seeing herself and those around her for what they are.. as she knows the deception that she plays everyday... and accepts those limitations in her own heart. 

I think if the thin man does something for Maytag.. she will be one of the successful ones... because of her understanding of her true nature and the effects on those about her.  She truly has a good heart... at least I think so.

...sorry didn't mean to wax all philosophical there..
Title: Re: Chapter 36: Discussion
Post by: Shay on March 20, 2013, 07:18:39 pm
I think some of that might be true. Giving people what they want, and it turning out wrong.
That doesn't explain Bloody Mary, but it could be Melter going off on her own, or Mary forgetting what she wished for, or any number of things.

I doubt Maytag would wish for anything though, precisely because she understands herself. She's said before how awful she is. Rotten to the core. I get the feeling she would view herself as the worst sort of person to get the Thin Man Treatment.
Title: Re: Chapter 36: Discussion
Post by: sunphoenix on March 21, 2013, 05:40:41 am
I doubt Maytag would wish for anything though, precisely because she understands herself. She's said before how awful she is. Rotten to the core. I get the feeling she would view herself as the worst sort of person to get the Thin Man Treatment.

I agree... unless she might consider him...'fixing' her?  Which I hope she is not pondering that.  Maytag is VERY self-aware... and I like her just the way she is!  :)
Title: Re: Chapter 36: Discussion
Post by: Gillsing on March 21, 2013, 08:05:09 am
That last panel of page 14 (http://flipside.keenspot.com/comic.php?i=1815), is that where Maytag gets tired of the good cop/bad cop routine they've arranged to make her side with the Thin Man? Because those eyes do not look amused.
Title: Re: Chapter 36: Discussion
Post by: sunphoenix on March 21, 2013, 06:12:30 pm
That last panel of page 14 (http://flipside.keenspot.com/comic.php?i=1815), is that where Maytag gets tired of the good cop/bad cop routine they've arranged to make her side with the Thin Man? Because those eyes do not look amused.

Yeah.  That's what I'm getting too...  I think she's about to call them out of this little game and demand they BOTH get to the point!  She's not fooled...
We're all familiar with that look in her eyes... she's not acting "normal" anymore.. her 'Real' personality is assessing this entire setup...
Title: Re: Chapter 36: Discussion
Post by: you_been_mangoed on March 22, 2013, 12:39:41 am
Hello everyone!  First time posting.  To add to what Gillsing and sunphoenix are saying, I want to put out another theory.  I mean, Rhodes, Corona, and Marce could very well could very well all be puppets of Lehm.  But what if Rhodes is actually the "thin man", and all the other characters introduced in this environment are the puppets?  I mean, Lehm has quite an aversion to being called "Master", and Rhodes has an interesting pose on the cover of this volume.  Maybe that's what Maytag's suspecting.

Or maybe my theories are just waaay out there   ;D
Title: Re: Chapter 36: Discussion
Post by: Kiran on March 22, 2013, 02:31:43 am
Well we will see.

I kinda hope that May will ask them about BloodyMary case where she clealy heard that it wasn't a willing happy transfomation.

But if the Thin Man(whovever that is Rhodes or Lehm) changes them anyway due thinking that's for their own good and that kinda helps them to accomplish their wants, what might be May's hidden desires?
Be liked by everyone for who she is and not for who she acts?
Make Bern open sexualy?

I doubt Maytag would wish for anything though, precisely because she understands herself. She's said before how awful she is. Rotten to the core. I get the feeling she would view herself as the worst sort of person to get the Thin Man Treatment.

I agree... unless she might consider him...'fixing' her?  Which I hope she is not pondering that.  Maytag is VERY self-aware... and I like her just the way she is!  :)
May would prefer to work on that on her own than make it by some cheat.
But who knows what her hidden subconciousness might to say about it if she would be put in the process anyway even against her will.
Title: Re: Chapter 36: Discussion
Post by: Stargoat on March 22, 2013, 10:15:25 am
Hello everyone!  First time posting.  To add to what Gillsing and sunphoenix are saying, I want to put out another theory.  I mean, Rhodes, Corona, and Marce could very well could very well all be puppets of Lehm.  But what if Rhodes is actually the "thin man", and all the other characters introduced in this environment are the puppets?  I mean, Lehm has quite an aversion to being called "Master", and Rhodes has an interesting pose on the cover of this volume.  Maybe that's what Maytag's suspecting.

Or maybe my theories are just waaay out there   ;D

Yeah, I kind of thought that from the beginning.
Title: Re: Chapter 36: Discussion
Post by: weirdguy on March 23, 2013, 02:46:51 am
looks like the jig's up

somebody needs to tone down the hamming  ;)

but really, just eat already, the food's getting cold

(if any of them had done their homework, they would know that they could just talk to her without having to bs)
Title: Re: Chapter 36: Discussion
Post by: Gillsing on March 23, 2013, 07:26:30 am
But what if Rhodes is actually the "thin man", and all the other characters introduced in this environment are the puppets?
That's an interesting idea. Certainly didn't consider that possibility. And he does appear to be the only 'real' person there. All the others seem to be highly unnatural. And as the supposed 'ally' of the only real prisoner, perhaps he intended to get her to confide in him so he could find out how to best modify her? Though I guess that could've been his job no matter who is the real Thin Man.
Title: Re: Chapter 36: Discussion
Post by: sunphoenix on March 25, 2013, 04:16:56 pm
looks like the jig's up

somebody needs to tone down the hamming  ;)

but really, just eat already, the food's getting cold

(if any of them had done their homework, they would know that they could just talk to her without having to bs)

Yeha they obviously don't know her very well.  Maytag is very good at this sort of 'bait and switch' stuff... it would not work on her.  They could have gotten a lot further with her by just speaking plainly. 

Now for some this might be a real stopping point in the negotiation, but this is Maytag here... she will likely not be put off by their "dishonesty" in trying to 'play' her... as she is familiar with 'dishonest' interaction with people - this IS her stock and trade as it were.  But she will want some straight answers... she is not the trusting sort so unless they are going to go to a more...persuasive or violent from of coercion... just asking her is the best option.  Though it would have been the best option in the first place... {as that would have spoken volumes to their honest motivations}.  May's too savy to be taken in by a "BS sob story"... and their amateurish play at 'handling' her is only wasting her time from her goals ...which will annoy her... not a good foot to get on with Maytag.  Now, she will be doubly suspicious {she's normally suspicious of people's motives in the first place - after all}.. they may have a slightly tougher time convincing her to agree to whatever it is they want her to agree to.

LOL! I'd sure never play poker with her...well at least not the card game... unless it were for toothpicks.. just so I cold spend time drooling over how pretty and super cool she is! :)

I think Maytag would be a neat friend to have.. and a terrible enemy to make.
Title: Re: Chapter 36: Discussion
Post by: ducky_worshiper on March 25, 2013, 10:22:52 pm
I really hope we eventually get to a point in the story where it's not just "Maytag is the most amazingest person in the entire world ever and can out-talk any situation with any person in the whole wide world because she's so smart and cool and savvy and amazing".
Title: Re: Chapter 36: Discussion
Post by: sunphoenix on March 26, 2013, 11:28:36 am
I really hope we eventually get to a point in the story where it's not just "Maytag is the most amazingest person in the entire world ever and can out-talk any situation with any person in the whole wide world because she's so smart and cool and savvy and amazing".

Hahaha! I wouldn't call her ALL that! lol!  Maytag has some serious interpersonal trust and commitment issues! lol!

She's not the girl you take home to mom! hahaha!  Being ultra-suspicious and savy in manipulating people for your own ends might be a useful skill but its certainly not a socially well-adjusted way to approach your personal relationships!  I'd far from call that healthy! :)

Fun to be around as Maytag may be {you're always wondering what she will say and do next...} its hard to really feel she is dependable and not working another 'angle' every time you're around her!

In general... people don't like being manipulated or treated like they need to be 'handled' with every interaction... it be-speaks a lack of trust in their friendship and honesty or actual concern for their own well-being for their own well-being beyond what you can get out of them at the moment!

Well this is how Maytag interacts with EVERYONE on principle... that's not healthy, and people come to resent it... see her recent failing with Crest!

I like Maytag as a dramatic character... but she's got more issues than a half-price comic book store! lol!
Title: Re: Chapter 36: Discussion
Post by: Brion Foulke on March 26, 2013, 12:59:41 pm
I really hope we eventually get to a point in the story where it's not just "Maytag is the most amazingest person in the entire world ever and can out-talk any situation with any person in the whole wide world because she's so smart and cool and savvy and amazing".

So then, I take it you are predicting that Maytag will be in complete control of this situation, fail to be surprised at anything, and talk her way out of it?  Let's see if your prediction is right...
Title: Re: Chapter 36: Discussion
Post by: ducky_worshiper on March 26, 2013, 09:24:10 pm
I really hope we eventually get to a point in the story where it's not just "Maytag is the most amazingest person in the entire world ever and can out-talk any situation with any person in the whole wide world because she's so smart and cool and savvy and amazing".

So then, I take it you are predicting that Maytag will be in complete control of this situation, fail to be surprised at anything, and talk her way out of it?  Let's see if your prediction is right...

I'm actually actively hoping that it's not, but the previous 36 chapters aren't really giving me a lot of hope.
Title: Re: Chapter 36: Discussion
Post by: Shay on March 27, 2013, 12:28:27 pm
I think the worst situation she talked her way out of, was when Bloody Mary was eating her. Mary wanted to eat her, she didn't want that. So her solution was 'become the friend of the lonely girl so she won't eat me'. She had something to offer.

Even when she was negotiation with the Xibulba'd knight in exchange for Bern's life, she made it into a negotiation using intimidation.

With this group, they want to experiment on her (or change her or use her or something), and she doesn't want that. But she doesn't have anything to offer as replacement for that, like she did with Mary. She doesn't have a way to intimidate, like with the knight.

If I were Maytag right now, in a room full of potentially hostile people, obviously trying to manipulate me, without anything to negotiate or intimidate... I would be very nervous.
Title: Re: Chapter 36: Discussion
Post by: Stargoat on March 27, 2013, 02:48:46 pm
I think the worst situation she talked her way out of, was when Bloody Mary was eating her. Mary wanted to eat her, she didn't want that. So her solution was 'become the friend of the lonely girl so she won't eat me'. She had something to offer.

Even when she was negotiation with the Xibulba'd knight in exchange for Bern's life, she made it into a negotiation using intimidation.

With this group, they want to experiment on her (or change her or use her or something), and she doesn't want that. But she doesn't have anything to offer as replacement for that, like she did with Mary. She doesn't have a way to intimidate, like with the knight.

If I were Maytag right now, in a room full of potentially hostile people, obviously trying to manipulate me, without anything to negotiate or intimidate... I would be very nervous.

I expect this is not quite right.  They clearly want something from her, otherwise they would not bother with the ruse.
Title: Re: Chapter 36: Discussion
Post by: Gillsing on March 28, 2013, 09:56:24 am
I really hope we eventually get to a point in the story where it's not just "Maytag is the most amazingest person in the entire world ever and can out-talk any situation with any person in the whole wide world because she's so smart and cool and savvy and amazing".

So then, I take it you are predicting that Maytag will be in complete control of this situation, fail to be surprised at anything, and talk her way out of it?  Let's see if your prediction is right...
What? Are you suggesting that they arranged this whole charade just so Maytag could 'catch' them and feel all savvy and clever and on top of things, when this is all part of Plan A? Except she's well aware of that possibility, so she knows she must pretend to feel clever so they'll think that they've got her mind where they want it. But they too are aware that she might be aware, so more subterfuge awaits! :)

Actually, I'm pretty sure these guys did do their homework, so it does seem more likely that they do know what she's capable of. After all, they have plans for her. Plans that depend on those mental abilities. And the Thin Man is hardly the easily foiled type of villain, is he? It's not as if he's regularly put in Arkham Asylum by Batman.
Title: Re: Chapter 36: Discussion
Post by: Shay on March 28, 2013, 11:15:03 am
What? Are you suggesting that they arranged this whole charade just so Maytag could 'catch' them and feel all savvy and clever and on top of things, when this is all part of Plan A?

Oh man, that would be the best!
I like when Maytag's confidence ends up being unfounded. Like in the poker game where she ended up losing, hard.

It would be really unexpected (and sort of satisfying) if the next page was something like "we don't care what you want to make clear. We just wanted to verify you were smart enough to be a good test subject. Off to the experimentation table with you! You can't stop us."

I get the feeling Stargoat is right though, and they wouldn't do the charade at all unless they wanted something from May.
Title: Re: Chapter 36: Discussion
Post by: sunphoenix on March 29, 2013, 11:02:15 am
Yep don't bother lying.. just skip ahead of this amateurish "Foreplay" to get right down to the serious life-shattering - mind, body and soul rape...

Hmm.. I think the 'Thin Man' may like her style.  Hopefully he won't hurt her too much.
Title: Re: Chapter 36: Discussion
Post by: weirdguy on March 30, 2013, 12:11:22 pm
actually a good chance they could all be friends if it weren't for the whole "using hundreds of people for spare parts" thing
Title: Re: Chapter 36: Discussion
Post by: Smiles on April 01, 2013, 12:28:05 am
hehe april fools lol! <3 good one brion :D
Title: Re: Chapter 36: Discussion
Post by: sunphoenix on April 01, 2013, 08:48:06 am
LOLS! Ok.. yeah... that got me..duh! hahahaha! Good one! :)
Title: Re: Chapter 36: Discussion
Post by: Kanazaka on April 01, 2013, 03:10:05 pm
Great April Fool's strip!
Title: Re: Chapter 36: Discussion
Post by: weirdguy on April 01, 2013, 09:57:50 pm
the answer to these situations is always more nudity
Title: Re: Chapter 36: Discussion
Post by: sunphoenix on April 02, 2013, 07:08:24 am
the answer to these situations is always more nudity

...lol. So you think May is a screamer or a sweater? :)
Title: Re: Chapter 36: Discussion
Post by: Ryuu on April 03, 2013, 08:06:31 am
i missed the April fools page :(

P.S. i freaking LOVE Lehm, soo tempted to cosplay him to next MCM.
Title: Re: Chapter 36: Discussion
Post by: Churba on April 03, 2013, 10:47:06 am
I don't think we can put much stock in the expectations of the thin man. Unless he's pulling some multi-layer deception, he just threw one of the oldest street con tricks in the book at someone whom he KNOWS is streetwise as anything, and whom he KNOWS can read people like books, and then didn't expect her to figure it out so quickly? Either he's a fuckin' idiot, or he's pulling some deeper shit than usual.
Title: Re: Chapter 36: Discussion
Post by: TheCollector on April 03, 2013, 11:22:49 am
Ok, so I have a theory on what's going on here, though forgive me if there was something revealed in a previous chapter that negates me theory, I guess I don't remember if there is. But if not, my theory is, what if Lehm, isn't the Thin Man that tortured and changed Bloody Mary and did that thing to Susperia.

I mean yes, Lehm is definitely the real Thin Man, but what if there's an imposter out there? Maybe even someone who once worked with Lehm. I mean, looking at those women with Lehm, I'm guessing they've been improved in some way, but they don't look totally monstrous, or cannibalish like Mary and Susperia.

So, maybe Lehm actually only improves people who want it and does it without torture, but whoever changed Mary and Susperia is just claiming to be the real Thin Man.

And anyway, Lehm has brought Maytag here, because he feels that whoever this person is, unless he knows who it is, is in his eyes, ruining his reputation, and took Maytag as the only way he could ask for her help in stopping this imposter.

I mean who knows, in a few pages we might find out I'm completely wrong, but this is just what I feel is going to happen at the moment.
Title: Re: Chapter 36: Discussion
Post by: Gillsing on April 03, 2013, 12:47:54 pm
Seems plausible enough. But it could also be that only the 'failures' get sent away. Or that only the failures get noticed by others, while the young women who end up well-adjusted to society simply keep their mouths shut and go on living happy lives, either working for Lehm or working for themselves. Given that the Thin Man has a reputation for creating monsters, it's easy to see why any given woman might not want it known that she's in any way associated with him.

Right now I'm leaning towards the scam setup being a way to flatter Maytag into thinking she's really, really special to have figured it out so quickly. Help them with that thing, Maytag! You're their only hope!
Title: Re: Chapter 36: Discussion
Post by: Ryuu on April 04, 2013, 12:56:53 am
I think perhaps he wanted to know exactly how good May was, as he said, he expected her to work out, just not quite so quickly.
Title: Re: Chapter 36: Discussion
Post by: sunphoenix on April 04, 2013, 05:56:10 am
I think perhaps he wanted to know exactly how good May was, as he said, he expected her to work out, just not quite so quickly.

Yeah I think so too.  Perhaps he just truly underestimated her.  I mean its one thing to hear about someone... consider she is not a mage or a kick-ass knight word of mouth says she's a gambler and a entertainer.  But reputation says she has been pivotal in the defeat of some pretty powerful foes.. but no one was present to actually "See" those defeats... at least not a large crowd to actually witness her skills.  So its just as likely 'Thin Man' was not entirely sure how 'actually' capable she was and how much was inevitable hype and hearsay!
Title: Re: Chapter 36: Discussion
Post by: weirdguy on April 04, 2013, 12:24:26 pm
Ok, so I have a theory on what's going on here, though forgive me if there was something revealed in a previous chapter that negates me theory, I guess I don't remember if there is. But if not, my theory is, what if Lehm, isn't the Thin Man that tortured and changed Bloody Mary and did that thing to Susperia.

I mean yes, Lehm is definitely the real Thin Man, but what if there's an imposter out there? Maybe even someone who once worked with Lehm. I mean, looking at those women with Lehm, I'm guessing they've been improved in some way, but they don't look totally monstrous, or cannibalish like Mary and Susperia.

So, maybe Lehm actually only improves people who want it and does it without torture, but whoever changed Mary and Susperia is just claiming to be the real Thin Man.

And anyway, Lehm has brought Maytag here, because he feels that whoever this person is, unless he knows who it is, is in his eyes, ruining his reputation, and took Maytag as the only way he could ask for her help in stopping this imposter.

I mean who knows, in a few pages we might find out I'm completely wrong, but this is just what I feel is going to happen at the moment.
so, you think there's two melters running around, or something?

edit note thing: i'd just like to note about spec ops

all of the things you didn't like were done on purpose

you didn't get far enough into the game to realize what's going on yet

which given the current tack of the story is somewhat ironic

however, putting the game down and not playing it is, by the developer's words, a legitimate way to play the game
Title: Re: Chapter 36: Discussion
Post by: sunphoenix on April 10, 2013, 02:43:22 pm
Yeah... haha... that's Maytag... I don't think she could put anymore sarcasm into that "...so you do NOTHING to trick people...", comment!  lol.
Title: Re: Chapter 36: Discussion
Post by: weirdguy on April 10, 2013, 09:47:15 pm
no don't go before having dinner

it will get cold

also it's likely that what he's got to show her will kill her appetite
Title: Re: Chapter 36: Discussion
Post by: Kiran on April 11, 2013, 01:12:19 am
Finally, I wonder how he will explain Mary change compared to what we saw happening from Mary's memories...
Title: Re: Chapter 36: Discussion
Post by: sunphoenix on April 11, 2013, 05:25:34 am
Uhm... "Shudder"...  This could get messy.
Title: Re: Chapter 36: Discussion
Post by: tbeean on April 11, 2013, 01:23:57 pm
I'm hoping for some kind of Mary flashback story though, I do miss her.
Seeing more of her change process would be interesting, can't wait to hear Thin Man's explanation though.
Title: Re: Chapter 36: Discussion
Post by: weirdguy on April 12, 2013, 12:43:27 am
wow, sopa sure did a number on that room
Title: Re: Chapter 36: Discussion
Post by: sunphoenix on April 12, 2013, 06:16:22 am
Oh great... a hall Rorschach tests.. that would drive me insane...

Unless they are paper thin slices of Mary's brain left on display...!  On second thought.. I'd go for the Rorschach gallery... {pick your poisons... and insanities wisely!}
Title: Re: Chapter 36: Discussion
Post by: Shay on April 17, 2013, 09:48:40 am
I have to say, I'm really liking how this is going. It's been awhile since I've been really looking forward to what the next page holds, and this arc is really interesting.
Title: Re: Chapter 36: Discussion
Post by: Shay on April 22, 2013, 02:51:33 pm
So then, what he's saying is...  if the experiment is unsuccessful, the Thin Man releases them right back where they came from? He doesn't try to undo the experiment, or at least minimize the body horror he's done?
And if none of that is available, if he's created a monster that can never be undone... he doesn't kill them? I feel like leaving them to run free, kill some people, and eventually be destroyed by the Phalanx is a bad alternative to just euthanizing them himself.
Title: Re: Chapter 36: Discussion
Post by: maddhopps on April 24, 2013, 03:23:59 pm
Didn't Melter tell Mary that the experiment on her was a success? I don't remember exactly, but I'm fairly certain I remember her telling Maytag that.

I'm also still wondering why her powers needed to be powered my the consumption of human flesh. That seemed like something that was planned to be part of the experiment.
Title: Re: Chapter 36: Discussion
Post by: sunphoenix on April 25, 2013, 06:04:33 am
Well a girl's gotta eat!  She just wasn't picky about if it were previously sentient or currently dead...

But I'd still do 'em - both Maytag and Mary.. the perfect tag team! LOL!
Title: Re: Chapter 36: Discussion
Post by: Shazam on April 25, 2013, 09:19:48 am
I'm not really getting this either.

1. We're experimenting to perfect this avenue of magic
2. Everyone volunteers because we offer them the changes they want after getting them to trust us
3. Even when we fail, we put people back out there to commit horrible crimes as superpowered monstrosities. Things that would horrify them to do. In Mary's example, we didn't tell her what her issues were or offer to send her somewhere with fewer people, we just put her back with her family to eat them with no warning, setting off a whole horrible chain.
4. We've already made clear we'll hold thing back and try and manipulate people in order to get them to volunteer. We just want people willing, we're not actually trying to protect them or look out for their interests.
5. We used magic to figure out Mary was a good target and how to approach her to get her willing.
6. We probably used this painting oracle magic to find out May is a good target and how to approach her to get her willing too.
7. May our clever cynic and manipulator of people's reactions somehow reads into this 'they're trying to be truthful'.

It's good in a way that May isn't just outsmarting people. Bryon has clearly listened to critiques about her super banter and body language powers. But mostly it just seems impossible that anyone who has now seen the repercussions of the Thin Man's experiments, whose been abducted, etc.... would in any way trust him period. Especially knowing he uses his powers to figure out how to pick targets and best appeal to them to get their willing participation.
Title: Re: Chapter 36: Discussion
Post by: sunphoenix on April 26, 2013, 08:22:02 am
Whao.. hold on there a little ...'Earth's Mightiest Mortal'! :)

3. No one has said 'when' a subject fails if they can possibly know about that until they are ...out in the world and make choices of what to do with their powers.  It could be just as true that Mary worked for a time but something happened or she found out what she wanted was not what she NEEDED... and became despondent and that is what turned her in her grief into what she became the "gift" might not have done anything to her that she did not expect... but it still might not have brought her the happiness she sought.  Oft times what people think is best for them and what they think the need are only wants and not truly ... necessarily what they ACTUALLY need!

Also, his bargain is to give them power... he did not say, "you can only use it in a way I Deem appropriate..", no one would accept power on those terms as they would effectively be agreeing to be his slave.  Thin Man has to let them do as they will with it.  It IS THEIR choice to use... or sadly ABUSE what he gives them.  He could say otherwise and no one would accept power under those terms. 

He IS in a 'hands-off' sort of way being true to the morality of the situation.

Ultimately PEOPLE are responsible for their OWN actions... to think or do otherwise is a cop-out... to avoid the responsibility or deny the consequences of one's deeds.

4. Just exactly what do you mean by this?  The Thin man told Mary exactly what he was going to do to her and what it would do for her {as far as he knew perhaps}... and that he had determined though magic that this would be the best way to fulfill her ...'wants'.  Her Aberrant behavior after the process is not necessarily his fault or even the result of what he did to her.  He has also shown the same things to Maytag so she knows he uses magic to find suitable subjects. 

Though I'm sure May will get around to asking just what he wants to do to her... but I think the more important question is WHY he desires to 'augment' people in the first place?  Pure research or does he have some actual goal in mind?

5. And your point being what?  That when you are looking for someone say to... try a new prosthetic limb design on, you don't search for a suitable subject first?  That is just an example.. but my point being he is not trying to universally use a magical augmentation on someone not 'suitable' to the enhancement... that would be irresponsible and cruel.  But the Thin Man has never claimed to know all... and surely with the power that he can apparently bestow... some people do not adjust to it well!  Sort of like the sometimes referenced "Cyber-Psychosis" from the Cyberpunk Genre... but in this case its from too much magic altering ones body and mind so one has difficulty relating and perhaps even interacting with those not similarly augmented... loosing one's humanity.. and effectively their mind with it!

6. Certainly in fact his showing her this implies he did so.. he's not trying to hide this fact at all.  He's just not come out and said so yet... as May has not asked.

7.  Well - in fact they are.  but likely even the Thin Man cannot know the unintentional side effects of a experiment.  He may know what it is supposed to do.. just not ALL that it will do to a subject.

..at least  THAT is how I see it.  but I have no monopoly on wisdom.. lol! :)
Title: Re: Chapter 36: Discussion
Post by: Shay on April 26, 2013, 11:16:22 am
Well... we know that he is telling the truth, as far as he knows at least, because otherwise May would be able to tell he was lying. But I still think it's a little impossible that he's actually a good guy, just giving out power for the benefit of the helpless people, just misunderstood by the world.
At the very least, no one is that altruistic. And no one is that purely good. (At least not in this comic)

I think the weirdness is that we've seen two experiments, gone very differently.
Clairen, who was happy with the outcome, remembered asking for it, and in general is good evidence for what the Thin Man is saying now.
And Mary, who remembers nothing, and seems to have been forced to become a monster. She is evidence of the 'madman experimenter' story that the Phalanx/Conclave have been telling.

There's evidence for both, but both can't be true.

Title: Re: Chapter 36: Discussion
Post by: maddhopps on April 26, 2013, 11:36:07 am
Even if cannibalism being the source of her regenerative powers was an unintended side effect, programming her with blood lust was seemingly done after the fact and without her knowing. Mary didn't kill her parents because she choose to. She killed them because she was giving an ability that would cause murderous insanity when starved, and then got sent home starved.

Maytag has been susceptible to other manipulators in the past, so it'll be interesting watching this all play out.
Title: Re: Chapter 36: Discussion
Post by: sunphoenix on April 26, 2013, 11:56:14 am
Well... we know that he is telling the truth, as far as he knows at least, because otherwise May would be able to tell he was lying. But I still think it's a little impossible that he's actually a good guy, just giving out power for the benefit of the helpless people, just misunderstood by the world.
At the very least, no one is that altruistic. And no one is that purely good. (At least not in this comic)

Oh I doubt too that its entirely altruistic.. but we don't actually have any proof that it is sinister purpose either.  I'm sure he gets the satisfaction of the knowlegde of what works and what doesn't work so he can further refine his magic and magical lore.

I think the weirdness is that we've seen two experiments, gone very differently.
Clairen, who was happy with the outcome, remembered asking for it, and in general is good evidence for what the Thin Man is saying now.
And Mary, who remembers nothing, and seems to have been forced to become a monster. She is evidence of the 'madman experimenter' story that the Phalanx/Conclave have been telling.

There's evidence for both, but both can't be true.

True.  But Doctor Frankenstein by Marry Shelly was a Brilliant Genius not understood for his interests in reviving the once live now dead and in his mania to do that he created his 'Adam'  but his failings as a father and creator were his personal failings not that he dared to try!  We do not know WHAT Mary was 'forced' to do or what she decided to do on her own.. at least I don't think we do. 

You have an emotional breakdown and see how clear your memories and recollections of what you did and why you did it were when you were in the middle throes of your episode of lost sanity.  Just something to consider ... she may have recovered from whatever happened and figured with self-guilt ridden shame she had no choice but to stay the monster she had become...

We just don't really know.
Title: Re: Chapter 36: Discussion
Post by: sunphoenix on April 26, 2013, 12:01:15 pm
Even if cannibalism being the source of her regenerative powers was an unintended side effect, programming her with blood lust was seemingly done after the fact and without her knowing.

Do we KNOW that or is that an assumption?

Mary didn't kill her parents because she choose to. She killed them because she was giving an ability that would cause murderous insanity when starved, and then got sent home starved.

Again do we KNOW this or is this conjecture?  Was this stated as the reason and by whom?  Mary?  Who arguably is in a ...Very Questionable mental state in the first place.

I'm not saying your wrong only that I don't recall anyone really giving any explanation for why Mary was the way she was with any definitive proof or evidence other than conjecture that she was the failed experiment of the Thin Man.  No one has stated or explained {at least as far as I can recall... correct me if there has been}... WHY Mary went all "eat everyone to power my regenerative powers" ... we don't even know {if I recall} if that is the truth - that she even needed to eat people to power her regeneration.  She may have only THOUGHT she needed to eat sentient beings to power her regeneration.. how sad it would be if she was just demented and delusional!
Title: Re: Chapter 36: Discussion
Post by: maddhopps on April 26, 2013, 12:36:53 pm
Note that I used seemingly and not certainly, but based on this page (http://flipside.keenspot.com/comic.php?i=683), Blood Lust looks like it was added to make sure she keeps herself alive. Also remember Mary says outright her body moves automatically (http://flipside.keenspot.com/comic.php?i=679) when the pain and hunger becomes too much.
Title: Re: Chapter 36: Discussion
Post by: Shay on April 26, 2013, 12:46:28 pm
we don't even know {if I recall} if that is the truth - that she even needed to eat people to power her regeneration.  She may have only THOUGHT she needed to eat sentient beings to power her regeneration.. how sad it would be if she was just demented and delusional!

We know it because Melter told her, and Melter is definitely real and working for the Thin Man because he captured Maytag.
Also, in the Bloody Mary Side Story, Mary tried eating normal food and got sick because of it. So, what Melter said was true.

Title: Re: Chapter 36: Discussion
Post by: sunphoenix on April 26, 2013, 12:52:55 pm
Note that I used seemingly and not certainly, but based on this page (http://flipside.keenspot.com/comic.php?i=683), Blood Lust looks like it was added to make sure she keeps herself alive. Also remember Mary says outright her body moves automatically (http://flipside.keenspot.com/comic.php?i=679) when the pain and hunger becomes too much.

AH...!   :'(  Thank you for the reminder...!  It has been a while.. I STAND corrected!

THAT is Fucked up!   >:( Yeah... this Thin Man is if not intentionally sinister is at the very least callously twisted and unconcerned about his subjects.  I hope Maytag remembers this information given to her by Mary!
Title: Re: Chapter 36: Discussion
Post by: Brion Foulke on April 26, 2013, 01:06:56 pm
It's so tempting to explain in more detail what is going on in these scenes, but I really shouldn't say anything, should I?
Title: Re: Chapter 36: Discussion
Post by: maddhopps on April 26, 2013, 01:15:26 pm
It's so tempting to explain in more detail what is going on in these scenes, but I really shouldn't say anything, should I?

Nothing outright, but small hints and clues would be cool. Right now, I'm thinking what's going on may relate to the idea of "betting thin".  I figure that idea is going come up again sooner or later.
Title: Re: Chapter 36: Discussion
Post by: sunphoenix on April 26, 2013, 01:17:33 pm
It's so tempting to explain in more detail what is going on in these scenes, but I really shouldn't say anything, should I?

Probably not... regrettably.

Though there could be some explanation if Melter did something to her... but I really have a hard time sticking up for the Thin Man with the scenes of her being hung about like so much meat on a hook her body mutilated and her being taken by Melter... most assuredly not by her consent!

Melter knew things that if he had not made her the way she is he could not possibly know, unless the Thin Man told him so... all the more reason I think this Thin Man is dangerously arbitrary and abusive of his obvious considerable talents. 

PEOPLE are not sketches to be 'tried out' and then discarded when one has "figured out" what they really want to do!
Title: Re: Chapter 36: Discussion
Post by: Brion Foulke on April 26, 2013, 03:34:52 pm
Nothing outright, but small hints and clues would be cool. Right now, I'm thinking what's going on may relate to the idea of "betting thin".

I bet you just think that because it has the word "thin" in it!

we don't even know {if I recall} if that is the truth - that she even needed to eat people to power her regeneration.

Okay, here's a little hint.  She certainly had her bloodlust as a result of the experiment.  The comic makes that clear, so I'm not giving anything away by saying that.  However, can you answer this question: was her bloodlust intended from the beginning, or is it a part of what made the experiment a "failure"?
Title: Re: Chapter 36: Discussion
Post by: maddhopps on April 26, 2013, 05:12:24 pm

I bet you just think that because it has the word "thin" in it!

... Maybe >_>

I could be misinterpreting it, but it sounded like the main idea behind betting thin was to add value to weak hands. Trying to convince someone to volunteer to be experimented on after you kidnap them, probably means dealing with a series of weak hands.  Against May the subject of Mary would definitely be a weak hand for him to play. I'm guessing what he is betting on is convincing May there was no malice on his part. If he can at least do that much then he can increase the value of his proceeding arguments.

Typing that out made me realize I'm probably just over thinking that bit though.

Okay, here's a little hint.  She certainly had her bloodlust as a result of the experiment.  The comic makes that clear, so I'm not giving anything away by saying that.  However, can you answer this question: was her bloodlust intended from the beginning, or is it a part of what made the experiment a "failure"?

Wait, does bloodlust =cannibalism? I thought they were distinct things.   
Title: Re: Chapter 36: Discussion
Post by: Brion Foulke on April 26, 2013, 11:53:06 pm
Wait, does bloodlust =cannibalism? I thought they were distinct things.

In the Flipside world it does.
Title: Re: Chapter 36: Discussion
Post by: sunphoenix on April 27, 2013, 05:43:19 am
Intriguing developments.  I ... honestly do not know what to think... is he mad or insightful?  Perhaps he is both - his insight has driven him mad.
Title: Re: Chapter 36: Discussion
Post by: Darque on April 28, 2013, 03:14:01 pm
Hmm...Danzig stated that 'this world is a lie', and now the Thin Man explains that his experiments are related to the world not being as it seems.
This is just speculation, of course, but could it be that the Thin Man is aware of the fourth wall?
Maybe he plans on breaking it.  Literally.
Title: Re: Chapter 36: Discussion
Post by: maddhopps on April 29, 2013, 12:33:49 am
In the Flipside world it does.

The way Melter words it on this page (http://flipside.keenspot.com/comic.php?i=683) and the way it is explained on this page (http://flipside.keenspot.com/comic.php?i=784) made me think that bloodlust only caused the wanting to kill part, but not the cannibalism. I'm guessing now that the words in quotations on the Melter page may not have necessarily been his words, but may have been words Mary was recalling from another time. 

Hmm...Danzig stated that 'this world is a lie', and now the Thin Man explains that his experiments are related to the world not being as it seems.
This is just speculation, of course, but could it be that the Thin Man is aware of the fourth wall?
Maybe he plans on breaking it.  Literally.

I used to think the big reveal was going be that Flipside was just a D&D game,but then I noticed the other comic Brion F does and figured that would be too obvious. If it does go the breaking the fourth wall route it'll be interesting to see how he'd differentiate from other takes on the concept.
Title: Re: Chapter 36: Discussion
Post by: Flipthecannon on April 29, 2013, 04:47:50 am
Seems that The Thin Man really does know all the right buttons to push.  Don't get me wrong, it's been clear that maybe the Flipside world/The Thin Man's motives haven't been straightforward for a while but I didn't expect him to state his goals like this.
Title: Re: Chapter 36: Discussion
Post by: Flipthecannon on April 29, 2013, 05:02:11 am
Also what are the chances that The Thin Man's ability isn't to paint the truth but to read minds.  The paintings themselves could be part of a ruse (he may just have a talent for art) but his ability actually comes from reading thoughts and images from people's minds.  It would make it easier for him to figure out how to implant blood lust and other augmentations into people's brains as well as know exactly what to say to Maytag.  I mean that line about the world not being what it seemed like. That's very much Maytag territory.
Title: Re: Chapter 36: Discussion
Post by: Shay on April 29, 2013, 03:58:47 pm
Oh. Are we going to see why it's called "Flipside" now? I always thought it referred to Maytag's personalities, but we now know that she doesn't really have two 'sides' of personalities so...  if there's another side to this world it would fit pretty well.
Title: Re: Chapter 36: Discussion
Post by: maddhopps on April 29, 2013, 05:06:11 pm
That's an interesting point. I thought the name referred to Maytag's philosophy and her willingness to look at the other side of things. There are quite a bit of dualities in the story that the name can relate too.
Title: Re: Chapter 36: Discussion
Post by: L0g0s on April 29, 2013, 06:25:02 pm
Anyone looking to uncover major truths (The thin man) is usually not to be trusted.  Just saying.  The truth is... there is no truth!    :)
Title: Re: Chapter 36: Discussion
Post by: sunphoenix on April 29, 2013, 08:49:46 pm
Oh.. you are sooo wrong!  There is indeed a definitive TRUTH... 'point of view' only comes into the picture when we, mortal men, do not wish to accept the truth that is self-evident.. and choose not to acknowledge what does not fit the world view we are comfortable with.

It is cliche' but soo true.. many people... "Cannot Handle the TRUTH!"