Comics Discussion => Flipside Discussion => Topic started by: Brion Foulke on November 12, 2012, 03:12:19 pm

Title: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: Brion Foulke on November 12, 2012, 03:12:19 pm
Oops, sorry for putting this up late.  I thought I put it up already, but I guess not.

This is the thread for discussing Chapter 35: Personal Responsibility.  Bernadette's dad Grant isn't doing so well... and Bernadette is the only one who can save him!  But will she be able to?  Oh, the drama!
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: Azure Priest on November 14, 2012, 05:19:53 am
Apparently nobody there ever heard of the term "Good will." It IS actually an intangible asset in any business. If you provide a service like simply giving directions for free, then there's a higher chance that the person to whom you provide that service will buy your goods than the goods provided by the bloke down the street. For those not familiar with the concept, it's a central part of the plot in "Miracle on 34th street," the original B&W version.
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: L0g0s on November 16, 2012, 05:33:00 pm
STAB THEM BERNADETTE!  DO IT! DO IT!

She should offer them their continued living as payment.  But then, if I remember correctly, isn't anything SHORT of violence okay down in the southern continent where she's at?   
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: Brion Foulke on November 16, 2012, 09:42:09 pm
Technically the law is against force.  Threat of violence counts as force.
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: Kiran on November 17, 2012, 12:38:49 am
Finally made catching up and that's some one hell of depressive story point going currently...

May got kidnapped to be changed into sorceress(maybe that's a positive), while poor Bern as always has the worse side of coin...
Dying father, no money, most of people around being materialistic jerks...
I don't see much of choices for her here, either try to join the same group Polly did to earn money in kinda lawful way, but that I suppose would take too long, and I don't see any other job for a bodyguard here to do; then try to rob people or as worst whore herself out for the quick money, but both will seriously conflict with her living code...

If Polly suddenly won't show up, then Bern is done for.
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: Azure Priest on November 19, 2012, 05:04:04 am
Bern's father, two words, "lost cause."

Maytag. One word "Monster." The "Thin Man" doesn't make sorcerers/sorceresses. That particular group of people make MONSTERS. They take a beautiful young woman, experiment on her (consent is optional) and then let her loose on her friends and family just to see what would happen.

No way that's going to end well for Maytag.
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: Shay on November 19, 2012, 12:28:13 pm
I really hope no one comes to 'save' Bern from this situation. I want to see what she does, simply because I think finding a way to get 800 gold in 15 minutes while still abiding by her moral code would be really, really difficult. If she sticks to her moral code, her father dies. But if she loses her moral code for money... that might be even worse.
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: Tyris on November 19, 2012, 02:00:11 pm
We can't really see how she'd make 800 gold in 15 minutes even by abandoning her moral code.
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: Shay on November 19, 2012, 03:24:08 pm
Yet somehow, I bet Maytag could do it.
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: L0g0s on November 21, 2012, 03:05:28 am
Okay, she just needs to start smacking in some heads then.  It's an elegantly simple solution for many of life's problems. 
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: Azure Priest on November 21, 2012, 06:16:15 am
Okay, she just needs to start smacking in some heads then.  It's an elegantly simple solution for many of life's problems.
Not going to work. That's the ONE rule in this little country. NO FORCE, no violence, no threat of violence, no breaking down doors, no smashing open locked chests, none of it. Doesn't seem to exempt pickpocketry, but Bren doesn't have any skill in that, and she's certainly not good at cards, and it seems Flipside has already wholly embraced socialized medicine. You think it's expensive now? Wait until it's "free."
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: 9_6 on November 21, 2012, 07:42:53 am
Blackbird will give her the monies in exchange for boobs.
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: Brion Foulke on November 21, 2012, 03:59:52 pm
Not going to work. That's the ONE rule in this little country. NO FORCE, no violence, no threat of violence, no breaking down doors, no smashing open locked chests, none of it. Doesn't seem to exempt pickpocketry, but Bren doesn't have any skill in that, and she's certainly not good at cards, and it seems Flipside has already wholly embraced socialized medicine. You think it's expensive now? Wait until it's "free."

Marvallo has the exact opposite of socialized medicine.  They have no insurance whatsoever, you pay all your own costs upfront and you don't have to pay a dime for anyone else.  It's more like capitalism medicine in it's purist form.

And I'm going to expand on how Marvallo's law works in a future intermission, but the law against "force" actually does make all forms of theft illegal, because that's considered a type of force.  It also includes contract enforcement, and some types of fraud.  They have a somewhat loose definition of "force" because all of those things are basically necessary for any society to function.
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: L0g0s on November 21, 2012, 06:03:06 pm
Just because something is illegal, doesn't mean it wouldn't work.  She'd just get into trouble for it afterwards.  :P
The Mafia seems to still be working alright after all.

Though I don't resort to it myself all that much, there is a simple rule in life.
 (http://c.mhcdn.net/store/manga/9/53-517.0/compressed/jbleach-3712665.jpg?v=11353418386)

Bernadette is a super law abiding type, I admit, but let's face it.  With a long lost father in the offering, I could totally se her going all badass on someone.  HOWEVER, I think Brion will come up with a less... overly simplistic approach than mine.  ( I have been known to utilize sledge hammers to work on... almost anything)

A political piece I once read basically outlined that all laws came down to property laws, and that the one true crime was theft.  Murder = Theft of life, Etc. etc. etc.
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: Kiran on November 22, 2012, 01:45:17 am
Limiting the time to 15 minutes for getting the money seriously limits what Bern can do.
Polly is away for a day so that route of help is locked, May won't answer her so that's gone too.
So Bern did the most obvious thing and gone to talk with one person who talked to her without asking for money and rather as a favour to Polly who he knows.

As for possibilitis how she can get 800 golds in now maybe 10-12 min left?
The most logical answer is to loan it from someone and sign some form of contract.
If this city is all about being materialistic and the money and compensating first for all kind of services with it, then for sure there are people who loan them.

What Bern can do?
Fight/bodyguard or use her body as a woman, and nothing else.
I'm for sure signing Bern off from any kind of gamble/thief/bard/con artist but also a killer for hire action.

So a possibility as signing as Enforcer for a contract for some time and getting money upfront for doing that may be some outcome.

Also since the whole city is set in no force/violence policy aside of Enforcers, then I would be pretty sure that there are some illegal fights going somewhere so people could vent off the rules and earn money on betting and such. Maybe Bern could sign a contract to fight in them... That's second possibility in my mind, but of course it would be illegal, and while doing it Bern would break her moral code.

The other is that for sure there are some kind of brothels or strip clubs where Bern could work for signing some shady contract for quick money upfront, but that I think even more would break Bern moral and ethic and especially her personal code on much higher level than just being a fighting thug.

And the last thing is which maybe the easiest outcome, is to simply sell her second magical sword in some pawn shop, and for that save her father(if selling the first sword gave her father a big sume of money for booze and whores then for sure it may be worth of something), but then she would have to stay here for a while to earn money to buy it back, and then also there's the second weapon...
I suppose this method would be the least wrong of what she would have to do.
But since Bern is outsider then she can be cheated by people pretty easily.

And if I recall right there's also Moss and Fata combo travelling, who could help Bern with their fake money illusions if met.

I can't wait to see what route author will choose here.

Edit:
Seeing newest update with money=life in this city...
I wonder how this works in the terms of loans, it's obvious now that Bern need an enormous amount of money which normal people won't be able to lend her, like this guy having just around 100 gold max...
So I would bet this will go into the loan shady business, maybe around 10 min left and Bern will need to spend her last money on random people to get directions to get to such place.

I'm kinda surprised that Bern didn't think about selling her sword as alternative like her father did to get money.

I would bet that such loan people would evaluate Bern how worth her life is in money and then she will have to sign some contract, if let's say Bern life is worth of 400 gold pieces for them for a year, then Bern would be owned by them for 2 years to pay of the taken debt. But for sure her desperation and time limit will push her to do something stupid which later Polly won't be able to solve out, and the guy's words will come true.

Also Brion you ever thought about activating comments under the comic pages like most webcomics have?
Comic discussions here are pretty dead compared to the past activity :-\
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: Flipthecannon on November 29, 2012, 08:24:26 am
I think I know where this is going with her offering her sword as collateral (a one of a kind sword even one that doesn't work right is probably worth a good bit).  Probably the woman saves him.  He's still ungrateful to her but to top it off even when she does get the 800 gold the healer decides the sword is more valuable and decides to keep it unless she can meet the new price the healer wants for the sword.  The other option is that she beats up the guards and threatens the woman but that seems like a major breach of Bernadette's ethics.  I'm not sure she would go that far just to save her father.  Also...I have to wonder what's happening with Maytag.
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: Brion Foulke on November 30, 2012, 12:13:47 am
Also Brion you ever thought about activating comments under the comic pages like most webcomics have?
Comic discussions here are pretty dead compared to the past activity :-\

I have thought about it, but that would have to come after the redesign of the website.  Which hopefully I can get around to soon.
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: Azure Priest on November 30, 2012, 06:26:01 am
Oh, wow! The WORST possible form of anarcho-capitalism on display here. Not only did the healer break her word "You have 15 minutes" but she's actually using armed men to physically remove a customer WILLING TO PAY from the premises.

As for selling the sword? Bern has to find a buyer willing and able to pay 800 gold for it, and so far, none have been forthcoming.

As we've also seen, using ANYTHING as collateral is not going to work for Mr or Miss "healer" here. It wants cash up front. Makes one wonder if the healing is actually any good of if the healer is merely a quack.
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: Flipthecannon on November 30, 2012, 07:18:13 am
@Azure's priest: You can't really say that without doubt as nothing has been offered as collateral up front.  She's not willing to take Bern's word as that has no value to it.  The sword has value. She might be willing to accept that.  I think the bigger dilemma would be getting it back from her at the set price.
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: Shay on November 30, 2012, 11:50:40 am
I have no idea if Bern would view it this way but...

Refusal to help someone who's dying can be considered 'murder' in a way. So, threatening the healer with violence in order to stop her from 'murdering' her father by letting him die... that might just be okay in Bern's eyes.
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: Tyris on November 30, 2012, 01:40:28 pm
Dude just pointed a sword at her. That's a threat of violence... right?

Paper-thin justification! BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: Kiran on December 01, 2012, 12:21:43 am
I have no idea if Bern would view it this way but...

Refusal to help someone who's dying can be considered 'murder' in a way. So, threatening the healer with violence in order to stop her from 'murdering' her father by letting him die... that might just be okay in Bern's eyes.
In a way it is, and I think that Bern now could snap and make her own version of justice against the healer, injure the guards and then force the healer with a sword against her throat to do the deed, but that at the same time would mean she broke this place only law, her own code too, and could become a wanted criminal with a personal responsibility to take care off...
That's one of the directions.
I'll admit I didn't expect the healer to make such move, she in a way is forcing Bern to act and cornering her, may it be just a form of extreme negotiatons?
She knew right away that Bern didn't have money and that she couldn't get it in the time so why she even agreed to keep the old guy?
Also as totally crazy prediction, maybe Bern could try to robe Polly house for the money out of desperation?
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: IronSoul on December 02, 2012, 12:35:27 pm
I'm not gonna lie, I can't wait for this arc to end. I'm not a big fan of Grant as a character and Bern shackling herself to him, even as her father, is wearing thin on me.
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: L0g0s on December 02, 2012, 03:51:48 pm
Once again I say, if violence isn't solving your problem, you're just not using enough of it.   DO IT BERN! DO IT!


I can't help egging people on.
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: Tyris on December 03, 2012, 01:43:37 pm
Bern just caught a sword with her cloth-gloved hand. Could this whole page just be a fantasy cutaway sequence of hers?
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: Brion Foulke on December 03, 2012, 08:33:56 pm
Bern just caught a sword with her cloth-gloved hand. Could this whole page just be a fantasy cutaway sequence of hers?

It wasn't moving when she grabbed it.  And if you look carefully you can see a little blood when she kicks away the guard.
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: Kiran on December 04, 2012, 12:59:16 am
I'm not gonna lie, I can't wait for this arc to end. I'm not a big fan of Grant as a character and Bern shackling herself to him, even as her father, is wearing thin on me.
I think there's no single person, Bern included, who likes Grant current character...
But I think that Bern would do the same not only for Grant but to a total stranger which she would stumble upon dying on the street where no one else would try to help him/her.
That's her own moral code, which seems to overwrite the law codes of this materialistic country.
I like seeing that Bern decided on the drastic kind of action.
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: MaronaPossessed on December 05, 2012, 06:08:30 am
Today's page is...a repeat? :'( :-\
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: dg86 on December 05, 2012, 09:40:35 am
^ This.  Is something wrong with the updating?
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: Gillsing on December 05, 2012, 11:09:47 pm
I guess it's a typo in the image link, showing Chapter 34 Page 19 instead of Chapter 35 page 19 (http://cdn.flipside.keenspot.com/comic/com-flip35-19.gif).
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: Kiran on December 05, 2012, 11:58:20 pm
I guess it's a typo in the image link, showing Chapter 34 Page 19 instead of Chapter 35 page 19 (http://cdn.flipside.keenspot.com/comic/com-flip35-19.gif).
Seems to be a typo then...

Who else hears the theme from "Bodyguard" going where the healer ask Bern to be her hired help instead of these guys to enforce her safety/business?
I'm kinda curious if Bern will go fully with the threat now.
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: Shay on December 07, 2012, 10:45:55 am
"We're a decent neighborhood"? Does that imply that non-decent neighborhoods don't have the Enforcers?

This page is deeply satisfying though.
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: sunphoenix on December 08, 2012, 05:34:59 am
Hahaha!  "I don't like grant", "I wish this arc was over... Grant's a lost cause...", Blah blah blh... :) {Not criticism... all in point}!

Look, this Arc is NOT 'about Grant'... it ABOUT Bern!  About what her limits are, about her personal honor, about her devotion and love... in all its parts!

This Arc is more about what SHE is willing to do, what is important to her and what she is willing to risk.. and abandon to follow her heart! 

I think its GREAT!

...And OF COURSE... Bern is Deadly Sexy when she's kicking Ass... too bad she's not into boys!  She'd be a hot little number to cuddle with and caress that distinctive scar tenderly on her face after some passionate love-making! :)
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: Ardanis on December 08, 2012, 08:08:42 am
I understand that the story needs some action and drama to proceed, but still I think that's a big blunder she didn't consider to sell her sword. I was pretty sure she'd bring it to healer - who's a sorcerer and therefore ought to see its real value, - and seeing how mere asking for direction costs 5 gold there, a magical weapon is guaranteed to be worth 800 gold, if not by a degree more.
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: Shay on December 08, 2012, 03:37:03 pm
Except you can't prove it's a magical sword. If Bern had the other then maybe though.
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: ipatrol on December 10, 2012, 01:10:13 am
Those who hawk the joys of capitalism have no clue what they're talking about. Capitalism is a savage thing. It is worth noting that even this conception of anarcho-capitalism needs a small state in the form of Enforcers. Property is only as valuable as the force that protects it. Some an-caps don't want a state at all. They don't get the fact that the state is vital to capitalism as as it is what protects the interests of property from the half-starved workers below. It is telling that this fictional state defines "force" in a very loose way so as to protect property, but it is silent on economic coercion such as this healer is using. Bernadette, as do the workers of the world, are justified in not standing by as people die from lack of the essentials of life. True, the father is an alcoholic; but then why do people keep selling him liquor? Capitalism does indeed view murder as a property crime, hence why people who kill one wealthy person are killers, but the capitalist who kills thousands by depriving them of medical care is a businessman or businesswoman. That is what capitalism really means.
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: Kiran on December 11, 2012, 01:18:08 am
Except you can't prove it's a magical sword. If Bern had the other then maybe though.
But Grant sold his sword, and for money he bought booze and women for some long time it seems which killed his liver, so actually it would point that even one sword is a really pricy artifact to get.

I will just blame the whole pressure of the situation for Bern to not be able to think this through, and just panicked going with threat route.

Now since Colonel Sanders entered the scene I see it can go in three ways...
Bern will give up since her father got cured, he didn't break any laws, and Bern will take whole blame on herself.
Maybe she will continue this longer and become wanting criminal with her father on her side to escape from this country jurisdiction.
Or after explaining her situation they will work things out without involving the Enforcers.
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: 9_6 on December 12, 2012, 01:07:30 pm
Why don't they just fart lightning bolts into berns face or wrap themselves into an anti-stabify bubble of minor sworcery resistance+1?
They are 2 sorcerers after all.
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: Brion Foulke on December 12, 2012, 02:34:26 pm
Sorcerers don't all necessarily know offensive magic.
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: 9_6 on December 12, 2012, 04:53:47 pm
Well how about teleporting, going invisible, a bright light flash, smoke, a sudden loud noise or any other gtfo spell then.
Or enchanted items, surely she can afford those for the prices she charges and it's not that far off for her to have some of those on her.
She conducts a business that deals with life-death situations on a regular basis like an asshole after all.

I find it hard to believe that, in this universe, all she can do is just healing and is, beyond the bodyguards, otherwise 100% defenseless against someone with 0 enchanted equipment even if it is the best swordsman in the world.

Beyond that, what can bern do to keep her from simply running away?
She was standing behind her bodyguards in a doorway all along.
Must've been a long state of shock she was in.
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: Brion Foulke on December 13, 2012, 01:46:25 am
Healing is an advanced branch of sorcery and requires specialization.  It's normal for healers to not know much of any other sorcery, or at least not to have it ready.

I think long states of shock are normal.  People tend to react very slowly in crisis situations.  Besides, it all happened pretty fast anyway.
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: Stargoat on December 13, 2012, 11:20:23 am
Makes sense to me.  I wouldn't expect an ER doctor to whip out the Wing Chung when someone storms his operating table.
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: 9_6 on December 13, 2012, 11:46:05 am
Magic has been presented as something with no apparent limitations behind it that you "get" when you "unlock seals".
Break more seals and you can do bigger, nonspecific magic.

There has never been a distinction between different classes of magic or how to even "obtain" spells.
No one said anything when vajira sealed demons or would've said anything if she threw fireballs and no one complained about suspirias uber healing powahs that saved bern.
It's kinda inconsistent.
If you're a sorcerer, you can just "do magic" and that's it.

It's not exactly a profession like ER doctor or soldier.
At least it hasn't been established that way so far.
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: Brion Foulke on December 13, 2012, 04:29:12 pm
There has never been a distinction between different classes of magic or how to even "obtain" spells.

You've probably forgotten, but the method for obtaining spells was briefly mentioned in intermission 9.  It stated that sorcerers enter a "dreamlike trance" to learn spells.  I can't remember if I've expanded on this anywhere else, but this basically means that sorcerers have to meditate and dream about specific spells in order to "learn" them.  Then they have to give that spell a name in order to recall that memory later, in order to produce the effect of the spell.  It takes practice to be able to create the effect of the spell consistently, and they have to keep dreaming about it and practicing in order to keep it ready.

Furthermore, I have not formally introduced this concept yet but there is something called "specialists," sorcerers who focus heavily on one type of magic effect to the point where they have a greater control over it and don't even need to use a key word to call upon the spell.  Generally healers tend to be the specialist type, because a high level of precision and control is required to be able to mend the human body, so most sorcerers would be unable to do it if they didn't specialize.

Incidentally, notice how Suspiria doesn't need to use keywords and seems to know a huge variety of spells.  This is decidedly not normal.  There is a reason why she has such a high opinion of herself and calls herself a genius.

So it's not that it's inconsistent (as far as I know,) it's just that there's some information I haven't given you yet.
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: Shay on December 13, 2012, 05:49:28 pm
Except you can't prove it's a magical sword. If Bern had the other then maybe though.
But Grant sold his sword, and for money he bought booze and women for some long time it seems which killed his liver, so actually it would point that even one sword is a really pricy artifact to get.

Oh yeah. Good point.

I wonder... if someone FROM Marvallo was in this situation... would they just give up and let their father die? People keep on saying "Go get more money", so would their response just be, "I should have had more money?". Is this a country of people desperately collecting money at every turn, so that they'll be prepared?

I'm guessing there aren't banks or insurance companies so...

If your house burns down, if you fall sick, if you lose your savings for whatever reason... You're just out of luck? That's it?

That seems like such a nerve wracking way to live.
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: Kiran on December 14, 2012, 06:42:05 am
Except you can't prove it's a magical sword. If Bern had the other then maybe though.
But Grant sold his sword, and for money he bought booze and women for some long time it seems which killed his liver, so actually it would point that even one sword is a really pricy artifact to get.

Oh yeah. Good point.

I wonder... if someone FROM Marvallo was in this situation... would they just give up and let their father die? People keep on saying "Go get more money", so would their response just be, "I should have had more money?". Is this a country of people desperately collecting money at every turn, so that they'll be prepared?

I'm guessing there aren't banks or insurance companies so...

If your house burns down, if you fall sick, if you lose your savings for whatever reason... You're just out of luck? That's it?

That seems like such a nerve wracking way to live.
I wouldn't go so far after seeing today's update, but it seems there's no society laws here at all, aside of that no violence law.
So everyone is for themselves, we can expect that families or friends help each other pro bono, but all other strangers or even worse outsiders?
They are out of luck if they don't have the mney up front.

We know that Polly will be back in one day, I'm really curious how deep Bern will bury herself here before that, I hope it will be the rogue wanted criminal route :P
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: Stargoat on December 14, 2012, 07:59:26 am
Bravo Brion.  Excellent update.  Very well done.

Quote
Oh yeah. Good point.

I wonder... if someone FROM Marvallo was in this situation... would they just give up and let their father die? People keep on saying "Go get more money", so would their response just be, "I should have had more money?". Is this a country of people desperately collecting money at every turn, so that they'll be prepared?

I'm guessing there aren't banks or insurance companies so...

If your house burns down, if you fall sick, if you lose your savings for whatever reason... You're just out of luck? That's it?

That seems like such a nerve wracking way to live.

There are probably strong mutual support societies, unions, etc much like the Pilot Association described by Mar Twain in Life on the Mississippi, or like Medieval guilds.  I would also expect that there are religions, etc attempting to garner support.  Heck, in a lot of ways, Marvallo could be one big revolution waiting to happen.  I wonder what affect magic would have on economic distribution....
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: Shay on December 14, 2012, 12:50:27 pm
I'd imagine it would be hard to start a community like that though. If you do a selfless act, one that loses you money, you hope that your 'friend' will help you down the line in return but... if they don't, you've lost more than you would've than by just relying only on yourself. You can't even take revenge in any way on that person, so they have nothing to fear by refusing you when you thought they would help.

I'd imagine family would be very close here though. I'm also curious if there's some way of punishing people here, without breaking the violence rule. Like, if this Healer refused care for you and your family... would you then be able to ostracize them in some way? Or... something?
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: Reiiama on December 14, 2012, 01:50:21 pm
Just a question: Between the healer and her husband/father/whatever, what is the significance of their hats? Do they represent something? A religious affiliation?
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: SAGG on December 14, 2012, 02:55:47 pm
Aha! So these folks are libertarians...  ::)
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: Abstract Vagabond on December 15, 2012, 12:11:20 am
I take objection to this version of "personal responsibility" (my political leaning lie somewhere between libertarian and anarchist, a forewarning). I'm a firm believer of personal responsibility and this character loses sight of the word "responsibility". Personal responsibility isn't devoid of consequences and neither is freedom. So, Grant drunk himself into bad health. Ok, yes, he did that to himself. However, this has gone beyond dealing with Grant. This character is dealing with Bern. He's not denying Grant help, he's denying Bern help. Sure, he may not be responsible for what happens to Grant, but he will be responsible for whatever hell Bern unleashes upon him. With his level of greed, he deserves that hell.
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: Kiran on December 15, 2012, 12:35:43 am
What if Bern here took another approach and used the guys logic against him?
Everyone has personal responsibility, and his daughter agreed upon it to perfom a task for agreed price after agreed amount of time passed.
But without any notice she called that deal off by throwing Grant out and in a way pushing Bern into this violent situation not even trying to wait.
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: Brion Foulke on December 15, 2012, 05:34:11 pm
This character is dealing with Bern. He's not denying Grant help, he's denying Bern help. Sure, he may not be responsible for what happens to Grant, but he will be responsible for whatever hell Bern unleashes upon him. With his level of greed, he deserves that hell.

That doesn't make any sense.  If you're saying he's not responsible for what happens to Grant, why would he be responsible for what happens to Bern?  The point isn't that only "responsible" people deserve help; rather just that personal responsibility is necessary in a land of so much freedom, and part of that freedom is getting to choose who you will help.

What if Bern here took another approach and used the guys logic against him?
Everyone has personal responsibility, and his daughter agreed upon it to perfom a task for agreed price after agreed amount of time passed.  But without any notice she called that deal off by throwing Grant out and in a way pushing Bern into this violent situation not even trying to wait.

I think that would be a hollow point for Bern to try to make, since afterall there was no way she could have gotten the money in 15 minutes.  Besides, I don't think you're quite grasping his point: it's that in Marvallo personal responsibility is a necessary price they pay for having so much freedom and not having to pay taxes.  In this context "personal responsibility" means being able to take care of yourself.
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: perechon on December 17, 2012, 02:30:04 pm
Freedom? Good thing!
BUT! Bernadette has also the need for this freedom. She wants to care for her father? She should have the possibility to do this! The healer and her husband (?) don?t give her so much freedom by choosing to set the price for the healing ridiculously high. What about some alternatives for payment? They say, that they value freedom highest, but obviously only their own freedom...
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: ipatrol on December 18, 2012, 02:25:11 am
This character is dealing with Bern. He's not denying Grant help, he's denying Bern help. Sure, he may not be responsible for what happens to Grant, but he will be responsible for whatever hell Bern unleashes upon him. With his level of greed, he deserves that hell.

That doesn't make any sense.  If you're saying he's not responsible for what happens to Grant, why would he be responsible for what happens to Bern?  The point isn't that only "responsible" people deserve help; rather just that personal responsibility is necessary in a land of so much freedom, and part of that freedom is getting to choose who you will help.

What if Bern here took another approach and used the guys logic against him?
Everyone has personal responsibility, and his daughter agreed upon it to perfom a task for agreed price after agreed amount of time passed.  But without any notice she called that deal off by throwing Grant out and in a way pushing Bern into this violent situation not even trying to wait.

I think that would be a hollow point for Bern to try to make, since afterall there was no way she could have gotten the money in 15 minutes.  Besides, I don't think you're quite grasping his point: it's that in Marvallo personal responsibility is a necessary price they pay for having so much freedom and not having to pay taxes.  In this context "personal responsibility" means being able to take care of yourself.

You have a curious definition of freedom. In this, as with all capitalist societies, you are only as free as your next meal or paycheck. Freedom from want is as essential as all other freedoms. Otherwise you are forced to work at whatever wages are offered to be able to eat. There is nothing for the unemployed, the physically and mentally disabled, the sick, the elderly, or the orphans. If your choice is to do what those who have wealth demand of you or else starve, how is that not force?

Furthermore, you bring in personal responsibility into alcoholism. Few associations could be more counterfactual. Alcoholism is a disease of addiction. It eats a person as surely as cancer. This man needs help, not an ideological scolding. You do a disservice to all alcoholics, recovering or otherwise, by pinning the blame on them for their mental illness.
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: Brion Foulke on December 19, 2012, 06:57:37 am
You have a curious definition of freedom. In this, as with all capitalist societies, you are only as free as your next meal or paycheck. Freedom from want is as essential as all other freedoms. Otherwise you are forced to work at whatever wages are offered to be able to eat. There is nothing for the unemployed, the physically and mentally disabled, the sick, the elderly, or the orphans. If your choice is to do what those who have wealth demand of you or else starve, how is that not force?

You're absolutely right.  There's more than one way to look at it.

Furthermore, you bring in personal responsibility into alcoholism. Few associations could be more counterfactual. Alcoholism is a disease of addiction. It eats a person as surely as cancer. This man needs help, not an ideological scolding. You do a disservice to all alcoholics, recovering or otherwise, by pinning the blame on them for their mental illness.

I don't agree with this part.  The reasons behind his drinking are more complicated than that.
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: BurnGarn on December 19, 2012, 02:15:18 pm
I love the hypocrisy in this chapter.

Having the average conservative old guy talking about freedom and personal responsibility on one hand, and on the other they're essentially coerced into paying protection money/dues to the enforcers under the implied threat of having no oppressive state goons there to ensure their continued ability to make money. Government by the rich, for the rich, beholden to the rich, and those who have no money to pay the enforcers have neither the protection needed to make money nor the money to buy said protection. Thus, the system of perpetual poverty for all but the noble owning class and their government cohorts eventually became known as capitalism. And lo and behold, some in Americ-I mean Marvallo even began to think that it was such a grand system of economics, that they would be just fine without the Enforcers there in the first place. Talk about biting the hand that feeds you, after the Enforcers worked so hard to set them up as a second, completely unaccountable branch of the ruling class.

Oh, wait, that hasn't happened yet in the comic. Yeah, it's probably too early to talk about chapter 60.

Still, I did enjoy Bern resorting to violence, state Enforcers be damned. Hopefully she'll watch out for "Magic Drone" strikes or being indefinitely detained. If not, she might have to be imprisoned by Enforcer's while the old guy lectures her about how he does everything himself and doesn't rely on anyone else for anything. All within earshot of the Enforcers that came to his aid. Truly, it would be a fate worse than Kin's. :D
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: sunphoenix on December 19, 2012, 03:16:22 pm
I love the hypocrisy in this chapter.

Having the average conservative old guy talking about freedom and personal responsibility on one hand, and on the other they're essentially coerced into paying protection money/dues to the enforcers under the implied threat of having no oppressive state goons there to ensure their continued ability to make money. Government by the rich, for the rich, beholden to the rich, and those who have no money to pay the enforcers have neither the protection needed to make money nor the money to buy said protection. Thus, the system of perpetual poverty for all but the noble owning class and their government cohorts eventually became known as capitalism. And lo and behold, some in Americ-I mean Marvallo even began to think that it was such a grand system of economics, that they would be just fine without the Enforcers there in the first place. Talk about biting the hand that feeds you, after the Enforcers worked so hard to set them up as a second, completely unaccountable branch of the ruling class.

Oh, wait, that hasn't happened yet in the comic. Yeah, it's probably too early to talk about chapter 60.

Still, I did enjoy Bern resorting to violence, state Enforcers be damned. Hopefully she'll watch out for "Magic Drone" strikes or being indefinitely detained. If not, she might have to be imprisoned by Enforcer's while the old guy lectures her about how he does everything himself and doesn't rely on anyone else for anything. All within earshot of the Enforcers that came to his aid. Truly, it would be a fate worse than Kin's. :D

Hey just who are you poking at here?  Is that a troll I hear...?

Brion Foulke NEVER said or claimed that the Marvallo system... such as it is not; was perfect, ideal or even desirable!  He is not as far as I can see needling anyone's society or making a statement of philosophy about the real world or the morals or lack thereof of a 'Pure' {if such a thing actually exists... I can't see any modern government that fits that description} Capitalist society.

He has merely presented a divergant society with really unique and strange values as a story plot... nothing more.

So you can take you America-bashing and spew it elsewhere... thank you.  Our country is FAR from perfect.. but is no more egregious than any other nation devised by man's philosophy or reasoning!  There is no utopia... it exists as a concept in our hearts a goal to strive for.  Perhaps... someday... god-willing, we will achieve it.

Lets get back on topic... 'Isn't Bern cute when she's angry!' :)
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: Brion Foulke on December 19, 2012, 04:01:34 pm
Hey just who are you poking at here?  Is that a troll I hear...?

Please don't call people trolls.  I find that to be much too dismissive.

Brion Foulke NEVER said or claimed that the Marvallo system... such as it is not; was perfect, ideal or even desirable!  He is not as far as I can see needling anyone's society or making a statement of philosophy about the real world or the morals or lack thereof of a 'Pure' {if such a thing actually exists... I can't see any modern government that fits that description} Capitalist society.

He has merely presented a divergant society with really unique and strange values as a story plot... nothing more.

Thanks.  You're right, I not advocating any one political system over another.  But to be fair, I can't see where BurnGarn accused me of that either, to me it just seemed like he was railing against that political philosophy, which is a quite fair for him to do, IMO.  I actually like the idea that the chapter's events might inspire some political discussions.  Just so long as it doesn't get out of hand.
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: Abstract Vagabond on December 20, 2012, 12:15:49 pm
This character is dealing with Bern. He's not denying Grant help, he's denying Bern help. Sure, he may not be responsible for what happens to Grant, but he will be responsible for whatever hell Bern unleashes upon him. With his level of greed, he deserves that hell.

That doesn't make any sense.  If you're saying he's not responsible for what happens to Grant, why would he be responsible for what happens to Bern?  The point isn't that only "responsible" people deserve help; rather just that personal responsibility is necessary in a land of so much freedom, and part of that freedom is getting to choose who you will help.

What if Bern here took another approach and used the guys logic against him?
Everyone has personal responsibility, and his daughter agreed upon it to perfom a task for agreed price after agreed amount of time passed.  But without any notice she called that deal off by throwing Grant out and in a way pushing Bern into this violent situation not even trying to wait.

I think that would be a hollow point for Bern to try to make, since afterall there was no way she could have gotten the money in 15 minutes.  Besides, I don't think you're quite grasping his point: it's that in Marvallo personal responsibility is a necessary price they pay for having so much freedom and not having to pay taxes.  In this context "personal responsibility" means being able to take care of yourself.

I will gather that I didn't convey my words right. I'm not good at making arguments. I do know my stances and what could rub me the wrong way. It's just that the page gave off a negative vibe on "personal responsibility" to me. I also may have given it injustice with bad usage of words. I think where I was going with this (and I may still be using the wrong words) is that I got the impression that there is this direction that personal responsibility and self-centeredness is one in the same. I know people use it that way and accept whatever happens, but you also have the selfless with the same beliefs. Maybe it's all the political crap I keep hearing that's made me so defensive (and maybe irrational lol). It's just become a sore spot.

Of course, having Bern try to force help out of people with the use of violence was a disservice to her cause. And maybe this is where you were going that I didn't catch on to. On one coin, you have the greedy side of freedom and on the other, the desire to bring generosity from people via use of enslavement. The decision on who is good and who is bad in this conflict while forgetting that many conflicts have no good side does tend to be a blind spot.

All in all, it is a good storyline. :)
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: Brion Foulke on December 20, 2012, 02:56:11 pm
I will gather that I didn't convey my words right. I'm not good at making arguments.

That's okay cause I'm not trying to "beat" you or anything, just pointing out where I wasn't following your logic.

Of course, having Bern try to force help out of people with the use of violence was a disservice to her cause. And maybe this is where you were going that I didn't catch on to.

Yeah, I'm not saying she was right or wrong, depends on your point of view.  When it comes to stories with moral dilemna, it's no good if it's easy to figure out the right thing to do.
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: Kiran on December 21, 2012, 12:02:18 am

Of course, having Bern try to force help out of people with the use of violence was a disservice to her cause. And maybe this is where you were going that I didn't catch on to.

Yeah, I'm not saying she was right or wrong, depends on your point of view.  When it comes to stories with moral dilemna, it's no good if it's easy to figure out the right thing to do.
I like that about the comic when most of things go more into gray area, which can't be clearly admitted to be white or black.

Even whole issue and dynamics between May and Bern relationship and problems can be easily backed up from one of the sides, and both sides can be right depending on perspective.
I won't hide I'm more in a Bern camp of moral standards and monogamy in relationships area as my personal taste go, and she and her problems are something I can relate with more easily(I too love women and have a gf, regardless of gender issues) than supporting a cheating bisexual jester or a grumpy boy as Crest is ;)
Also if I ever was in Bern shoes I would confront May about the cheating long time ago and gave her an ultimatum then, and dump if she would not want to accept it, Bern is a saint for that she didn't do it and instead lived in misery knowing that the girl she loves each time she goes out is cheating on her(that makes you wonder if they have knowledge of STD there), or simply loves May way too much she doesn't deserves initially.
Let's say I'm one of the people who think that break-up would do good for both of them, even if temporary, they could taste new things then and see that they really want only each other...

Also about this Marvallo society, it seems to be based on extreme version of libertarianism, the state only use enforcers to protect it's citizens from harm and violence, every individual can do whatever he wants and is not forced to do anything if not wanted, in a way that's a total freedom on paper, but only gifted individuals which can manage on their own and offer something to society will be able to live in it and survive.
In the basics that is a perfect society, but as we see in this case of Bern sick father, it can backfire for individuals who can't afford medical help due to their poverty issues.
In a way such society should with time eliminate beggars, poor, disabled and all other individuals who can't cope and live in such setting by hard default standards.
The funny thing is that on top in such society should be the most wealthy person or group of people who would set it up like that, since as Brion said, they don't even need to pay taxes, and we see that this society doesn't have any kind of social or health care.
And from what Polly said the Enforcers are working for the guy who seems to be the "ruler" of this place. I suppose for Polly who lived here and see how the streets look now under this new set of rules and how it looked in the past, the system is quite good.
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: BurnGarn on December 21, 2012, 01:20:16 am
In a way such society should with time eliminate beggars, poor, disabled and all other individuals who can't cope and live in such setting by hard default standards.

That's part of the dissonance. In theory, that would be true. In practice, capitalism is just an updated form of monarchism/feudalism, all of which inevitably produce their fair share of peasants due to society still being based upon caste.

Of course, having Bern try to force help out of people with the use of violence was a disservice to her cause. And maybe this is where you were going that I didn't catch on to.

Yeah, I'm not saying she was right or wrong, depends on your point of view.  When it comes to stories with moral dilemna, it's no good if it's easy to figure out the right thing to do.

Since Bern at least tried to compromise and play by the rules until forced to use violence due to sheer desperation, perpetual poverty and a lack of alternative choices, it's actually pretty easy to say she was 120% right. She worked within the system until said system (and those perpetrating it) failed her completely, at which point she could either let her father die or fight to protect him. Such is the choice that impoverished people across the globe face. If their government and community are founded upon greed and selfishness, using violence to compensate for a lack of money is perfectly justified once money and status become the only gods people worship. It's just another form of greed and selfishness, even if it's not one sanctioned by the state. When the conflict becomes evil versus evil, the lesser evil is always "right". Sure, that leads to a family unfriendly aesop for a people unfriendly society. But the comic's spot on portrayal of a conflict between social status and social justice is still one of the best plot points to ever be introduced. Even if the whole thing still came off as "wrong" in the sense that, once the inevitable extortion that was being hinted at happened, Bern humoring the Marvallons comes off as pointless in hindsight. Which leads to a bit of fridge brilliance in that it's symbolically important in context, as the futility of her efforts is the very thing that makes Bern more sympathetic than the Marvallons. Yeah...this might be one of the most well written parts of the comic, at least so far.

Besides, I don't think you're quite grasping his point: it's that in Marvallo personal responsibility is a necessary price they pay for having so much freedom and not having to pay taxes.  In this context "personal responsibility" means being able to take care of yourself.

I still don't really understand how Marvallo has freedom without taxes, if they're beholden to the Enforcers whom they pay taxes ("dues") to. The idea that they have the freedom not to pay is undermined by the implication that communities who don't pay are not "decent", which seems to be code for them being violent cesspools of scum and villainy where it's survival of the fittest and no one is safe. Let's call them "ghettos", the end result of the poor and disenfranchised being forced to live together and compete with one another for scarce resources, all while the wealthy entrepreneurs live lives of peace, prosperity and abundance like old world royalty and nobility. The reality is that oppression and taxes are the prerequisite for the wealthy class's faux freedom to live without violence, because it comes at the cost of other people's freedom to use violence in the first place.  The rich are enslaved to the state for fear of their community becoming a ghetto, and those from the ghetto are enslaved to the rich in order to attain the means to continue surviving. How is slavery freedom? Or was that comment meant to be taken as sarcasm? Everyone is still relying on everyone else, only they're all beholden to a skewed caste system.

My confusion mostly stems from the fact that the chapter brilliantly portrays the very real fallacies of such a socioeconomic system, while the author seems to defend the fake ideal that only looks good on paper. This is made worse by the fact that, in reality, relying on the Enforcers is the furthest thing from taking care of oneself. If Marvallons truly took care of themselves, there would be no Enforcers in the first place, because there would be no market for a protection racket in a truly self sufficient society.  Like real life modern conservatism/libertarianism/neoliberalism/anarcho-capitalism, the Marvallon philosophy seems to be little more than a sham founded upon delusion, nationalism, an unwarranted sense of self importance and the idea that the wealthy could succeed without government goon squads keeping the envious hordes at bay. Maybe there's some historical context (that I skipped) explaining why Marvallo became like that, but without it, it's hard to understand how any objective person could be sympathetic to their views. Especially not when their views are such that a cute girl's father should be left on the street to rot and die. The philosophy begins as a logical fallacy, but ends up escalating into an emotional one when put into practice. Are they really anything other than heartless fiends who're only masquerading as self-sufficient members of society?

It's rather unfortunate that some of the most realistic and well written characters in the comic are also the most ridiculously ignorant. Or rather, it's unfortunate in a social commentary sense, but impressively accurate in a literary sense.
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: Brion Foulke on December 21, 2012, 08:18:13 am
My confusion mostly stems from the fact that the chapter brilliantly portrays the very real fallacies of such a socioeconomic system, while the author seems to defend the fake ideal that only looks good on paper.

Because it's not as one dimensional as you make it sound.  You're very right that I am trying to portray the reality of such a socioeconomic system, and in a sense this chapter is all about highlighting it's weaknesses.  But at the same time, I want to hint at why some people might choose to live in such a system despite it's weaknesses.  Politics is not a clear-cut matter of right and wrong, different people have different philosophies, and prefer different styles of government.
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: Stargoat on December 21, 2012, 10:06:42 am
I am having some difficulty understanding the angst regarding some folks feel.  I can easily see the point of view of the healer's father.  They are not responsible for anyone else, without regard to their particular profession.  Yes, it is an ignoble attitude and I would dislike them for it, but I would not condemn them.  Forcing someone to do something they do not want to do is called slavery.  And yes, taxation or corvee is slavery.

And Grant certain does seem to have chosen a life and death for himself.  Even his pretty daughter grown up has not swayed him from his path.  Perhaps there is more here, but even a confirmed alcoholic would likely suck it up a bit for his pretty daughter.

Upon some consideration, the Marvello system might be able to exist in a world of magic.  A near reasonably infinite resource could potentially improve enough people's lives to the point where this system might be feasible.  I suspect that Marvello is a recent experiment, or the leader who has been referred to is a very powerful and longlived wizard who can root out insurrection.
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: BurnGarn on December 22, 2012, 02:33:18 am
Well, the point I was trying to make is that their philosophy isn't wrong because it's different. It's wrong because it ignores reality. In that regard, it is pretty clear-cut. Suffice it to say, it's harder to sympathize with members of The Benefactor's Flat Earth Society than it is to understand them. In fact, they're all essentially economic zealots with The Benefactor as their dark messiah. And that's before the baseless (but not disproven) assumption that he's also the big bad who happens to dabble in nightmare fuel and horrific human experimentation. There'd be no better place to do it than in Marvallo, where the government isn't just above the law, it is the law (http://i52.tinypic.com/6zaez9.jpg).

Either way, Marvallo's upper class neighborhoods are clearly a den of white collar scum, villainy and extortion, so much so that it's impossible (http://pastebin.com/4kRxFSnY) to condense (http://pastebin.com/FPwNkS5N) my earlier two attempts at typing up a reply because they degenerated into rants. That I can't figure out how to succinctly point out everything wrong with the Marvallon philosophy, blaming grant for where his life wound up or the recent portrayal of Trollem and Maytag as the trolls that they aren't makes me lament that my face can't hold all these palms.

So far, the only likeable Marvallon is still good guy Grant Everyman (whom we're supposed to hate for being a lonely alcoholic?), who did everything right only to have his life coincidentally spiral downward into suck after (but not necessarily because) he was denied custody of the girl he thought was his daughter (sniffle). That she reappears only after he's already doomed himself via substance abuse just drives those feels home. It's also kind of funny how, after 6 chapters, the only redeeming character in Marvallo is still the suicidal alcoholic (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TooGoodForThisSinfulEarth) who's about to die.  I'm still not sure whether this arc's meant to troll objective readers, or if it's just a stealth attempt at black comedy.
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: sunphoenix on December 22, 2012, 05:30:16 am
Well, the point I was trying to make is that their philosophy isn't wrong because it's different. It's wrong because it ignores reality. In that regard, it is pretty clear-cut. Suffice it to say, it's harder to sympathize with members of The Benefactor's Flat Earth Society than it is to understand them. In fact, they're all essentially economic zealots with The Benefactor as their dark messiah. And that's before the baseless (but not disproven) assumption that he's also the big bad who happens to dabble in nightmare fuel and horrific human experimentation. There'd be no better place to do it than in Marvallo, where the government isn't just above the law, it is the law (http://i52.tinypic.com/6zaez9.jpg).

Either way, Marvallo's upper class neighborhoods are clearly a den of white collar scum, villainy and extortion, so much so that it's impossible (http://pastebin.com/4kRxFSnY) to condense (http://pastebin.com/FPwNkS5N) my earlier two attempts at typing up a reply because they degenerated into rants. That I can't figure out how to succinctly point out everything wrong with the Marvallon philosophy, blaming grant for where his life wound up or the recent portrayal of Trollem and Maytag as the trolls that they aren't makes me lament that my face can't hold all these palms.

So far, the only likeable Marvallon is still good guy Grant Everyman (whom we're supposed to hate for being a lonely alcoholic?), who did everything right only to have his life coincidentally spiral downward into suck after (but not necessarily because) he was denied custody of the girl he thought was his daughter (sniffle). That she reappears only after he's already doomed himself via substance abuse just drives those feels home. It's also kind of funny how, after 6 chapters, the only redeeming character in Marvallo is still the suicidal alcoholic (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TooGoodForThisSinfulEarth) who's about to die.  I'm still not sure whether this arc's meant to troll objective readers, or if it's just a stealth attempt at black comedy.

...This was insightful, and well articulated. I agree.  Though... Polly isn't so bad... I kinda feel sorry for her too.  Though... I suspect there is something ... if not 'sinister' at least unexpected about her absence...
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: Kiran on December 22, 2012, 07:15:57 am
I wouldn't look everywhere for some evil plots like that...

Polly left Bern side earlier, and left a message saying she's gone to do some Enforcers business, she didn't know Bern father will be dying next day, she couldn't know.

But we saw that Polly is supporter of this system and is working so it would stay like this...

About theory that the Thin Man is the creator of this Marvallo system and it's ruler?
That would connect everything nicely.

Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: Brion Foulke on December 22, 2012, 08:17:57 am
Well, the point I was trying to make is that their philosophy isn't wrong because it's different. It's wrong because it ignores reality.

Or maybe some people are just okay with that reality.  Not that I'm saying that I am, or that you should be.
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: BurnGarn on December 22, 2012, 11:11:10 am
Though... Polly isn't so bad... I kinda feel sorry for her too.  Though... I suspect there is something ... if not 'sinister' at least unexpected about her absence...
But we saw that Polly is supporter of this system and is working so it would stay like this...

Polly as a character is decent. Polly as an Enforcer, not so much. It wouldn't come as any surprise if she reappeared as an enemy, since it's her job to stop people like Bern. While I'd hope defeat would mean friendship, the increasing focus on drama makes it just as likely that if Polly doesn't stay absent, one shouldn't expect her to be around for much longer unless she comes down with a sudden case of sanity. But from the way she talked about The Benefactor, she might be too far gone.

Or maybe some people are just okay with that reality.  Not that I'm saying that I am, or that you should be.

To say they're ok with living a lie implies that they know it's a lie and embrace the philosophy despite that. Is there actually a single character who's been shown admitting that the Marvallan philosophy is BS while simultaneously advocating in favor of it? Because they all seem to believe that dues aren't taxes and Enforcers aren't a form of government oppression. If they don't even understand the philosophy they choose to live by, isn't it more a case of ignorance than choice? Because choice implies they're informed enough about not just their own philosophy, but other philosophies as well, enough so to accurately compare the two and then decide.

Realistically, the only rational advocate of the Marvallan philosophy would probably be a violent crime lord who operates in the ghettos, doesn't pay dues, doesn't buy Enforcers and realizes that the ghettos are both the true embodiment of Marvallo's ideals of freedom and responsibility and also a result of those ideals taken to their logical conclusion.

Ironically, if Polly's becoming an Enforcer is any indication, any Marvallans in the ghettos who actually do experience real freedom and personal responsibility don't seem too eager to glorify it. Polly's goal of cracking down on crime is an example, even though the very concept of crime only exists in societies with rules and restrictions of people, the very thing she claims to be against. This leads to the unfortunate implication that even the ghetto dwellers are just as deluded as the upper class and Enforcers.

On a side note, have the neighborhoods that don't pay dues/"Marvallan ghettos" been featured in the comic yet? Because I don't want to keep making baseless assumptions about them if they've actually been shown. I just can't seem to find them within the past few chapters.
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: Brion Foulke on December 22, 2012, 04:59:45 pm
To say they're ok with living a lie implies that they know it's a lie and embrace the philosophy despite that.

Perhaps they don't see it as a lie.  (Not that I'm saying that all Marvallians embrace it.  There's probably a lot of them that dislike it, but don't have the capability to move.)

Because they all seem to believe that dues aren't taxes and Enforcers aren't a form of government oppression.

The "dues" they are talking about are optional donations to the Enforcers.  This is a little different from taxes; taxes are NOT optional.  You are forced to pay them, or you go to jail.  The donations, on the other hand, are technically optional... you can choose not to pay them and you will not be directly punished.  But as you may have noticed, there might be an indirect punishment in the form of less Enforcer coverage.

So is there a meaningful difference, or is an indirect punishment the same as a direct punishment?  Some people would say yes, and others no.  Depends on your point of view, right?

On a side note, have the neighborhoods that don't pay dues/"Marvallan ghettos" been featured in the comic yet? Because I don't want to keep making baseless assumptions about them if they've actually been shown. I just can't seem to find them within the past few chapters.

Not really, but they've been hinted at.  Remember the flashbacks to when Bernadette spent time in a gang?  That was in a "Marvallian ghetto."
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: BurnGarn on December 23, 2012, 09:31:55 am
>Perhaps they don't see it as a lie.  (Not that I'm saying that all Marvallians embrace it.  There's probably a lot of them that dislike it, but don't have the capability to move.)

Makes sense. But...what exactly are the restrictions on travel in the Flipside world? The main cast doesn't seem to have trouble moving from place to place, even before a Phalanx joined their group. Is there a reason a sufficiently organized Marvallan gang, or even a small group of discontents, couldn't get together and leave for a better place? Isn't that just what Bern did, with great success? ???

>So is there a meaningful difference, or is an indirect punishment the same as a direct punishment?  Some people would say yes, and others no.  Depends on your point of view, right?

Indirect punishment has no limit. It scares people into paying dues by threatening with the alternative, which is chaos, anarchy and a violent death. Direct punishment coerces people into paying taxes by threatening them with imprisonment, all while providing shelter, food, water and maybe even the chance to plead their case. It's more infuriating than frightening. A person can go without paying taxes and still live a relatively long life, albeit in captivity. It's like how zoo animals have it better than those out in the wild who're unfortunate enough to be picked up by some scumbag abuser. It's just that the comicverse is a world of scumbags, so many that the Phalanx and Enforcers are a necessity for those not sufficiently blessed enough to be master sorcerers or badass normals. Which I'd bet is probably a vast majority of the nameless masses who're never shown in the comic.

It isn't so much that direct and indirect are the same. It's that indirect punishment is much, much worse.

This is even more anvilicious in the comic, where the Conclave are the ideal opt-in non-imperial government that for the most part seems to unrealistically respect the sovereignty of those who reject the Phalanx, despite having the power to subjugate all who oppose them. After going through the entirety of the comic, I have absolutely no idea what Marvallians are even afraid of, other than a straw boogeyman constructed by The Benefactor and their own ideological zealotry. Has the comic shown even one Phalanx who genuinely abused the power and authority for the evulz? Or are the Marvallians just paranoid conspiracy theorists? ???

>Remember the flashbacks to when Bernadette spent time in a gang?

Yes, but the flashbacks make my head hurt, so I take them with a grain of salt. I mean, you'd think the ghettos would attract the most violent criminals in the comicverse due to being lawless quagmires of crime and villainy, and that they'd be an absolutely horrible place for a group of cute young girls to grow up due to the guarantee that their very existence within the ghetto would attract a storm of rape and abuse. I mean, what would stop some random group of sorcerers from coming in, enslaving them all and then selling each one off to wealthy clients and gang lords? The Enforcers whose protection they can't afford? The upper class neighbors who care only about themselves? The Benefactor who maintains such a system in the first place? And if anyone tried to stop slave traders, wouldn't it just degenerate into a bloody gang war resulting in a mutually assured massacre? Under those circumstances, would anyone even try to stop them? ???

However, instead of hardship, sorrow and high octane nightmare fuel, the flashbacks only portrayed Bern joining a gang on a shallow whim because she had a crush on the leader, and then having a grand old time sparring with her friends with nary a care in the world. Even her reasons for leaving were petty, and Clairen was shown hating her life outside the ghetto. The underlying message of it all was that the ghetto was such a great and peaceful place that Bern and friends always had the luxury of following their emotions without ever having to worry about consequences. It was as if gang membership was just like joining a social circle, and not actually for protection. That whole crime thing Polly was going on about? Limited to harmless fisticuffs in a bar that's easily rectified with a bouncy ball and a stern lecture from an attractive woman. This impression is further enforced by how upper class Marvallo comes off as a horrible place to live, as it's filled with people who's only emotion is "GIMME MONAY".

The contrast between common sense and the rosy heartwarming flashbacks brings up a few questions. How could the gang scenes possibly take place in a ghetto, if such a place would realistically guarantee them all fates worse than death before they could ever organize themselves into a gang in the first place? Alternatively, if the ghettos are safe enough that even a group of young gals can live on their own without worry or fear, why does anyone pay the Enforcers in the first place? Or is it just that Bern's gang had a character shield protecting them from the harsh nightmare inducing abuse that would have undoubtedly resulted from living in a lawless haven that offers shelter to the worst criminals in the country? ???

The point is, those flashbacks are hard to make sense of on their own, which is why I was asking about an actual portrayal of the ghettos in the comic. Unless friendship, rainbows and sunshine is an accurate portrayal of the ghettos, and my suspension of disbelief is supposed to be shattered. Is that the case? ???

I...don't really understand Marvallo at all. It seems like a contradiction wrapped in hypocrisy and served on a plate of vagueness. It's hard to focus on the plot when the plot makes me wonder just how the heck Marvallo's ghettos can even function as anything other than a bloodstained hellscape, or how the violence doesn't spread into other towns. Or how Polly's ragtag band of misfits even survived. Is Polly some sort of invincible banchou whose power exceeds both heaven and earth? ???

It seems like every time I think about the current story arc, I wind up falling into an endless series of plot holes. (http://imageshack.us/a/img43/566/32351213.jpg)
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: Brion Foulke on December 26, 2012, 09:53:43 am
Makes sense. But...what exactly are the restrictions on travel in the Flipside world?

It's about the same as us moving to a different country in our world.

It isn't so much that direct and indirect are the same. It's that indirect punishment is much, much worse.

I don't really understand that, but that's one way to look at it, I guess.

The contrast between common sense and the rosy heartwarming flashbacks brings up a few questions. How could the gang scenes possibly take place in a ghetto, if such a place would realistically guarantee them all fates worse than death before they could ever organize themselves into a gang in the first place? Alternatively, if the ghettos are safe enough that even a group of young gals can live on their own without worry or fear, why does anyone pay the Enforcers in the first place? Or is it just that Bern's gang had a character shield protecting them from the harsh nightmare inducing abuse that would have undoubtedly resulted from living in a lawless haven that offers shelter to the worst criminals in the country? ???

Although this hasn't been explained yet, the gang was essentially a vigilante group; since some neighborhoods receive less attention from Enforcers, people take matters into their own hands.  Technically this would mean that the gang was breaking the law, but since they are protecting the neighborhood people turn a blind eye to it.  So, keeping that in mind, there were obviously some hardships and violence, and you're reading way too much into a flashback if you think that wasn't there.  It's not that it wasn't, it's just that that wasn't the focus of the flashback.
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: Stargoat on December 28, 2012, 12:30:58 pm
Recent filler = funny as all hell
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: Brion Foulke on December 28, 2012, 01:46:35 pm
Recent filler = funny as all hell

Thanks!  Funny is what I was going for!
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: SAGG on January 01, 2013, 03:49:32 pm
Back to the 12/31 comic: Yeah, mister, it would be wrong not to at least call for help to stop a crime (and I believe it's against our law not to do so). Granted, Flipside isn't in our time, much less reality, but for a society to worship money only is a prescription for disaster. Besides, who'd tell everyone that you rolled over and helped someone out of the goodness of your heart? Bern? Heck, she'd get her dad back, and would be grateful. Of course, he doesn't really know her, but seriously?

What infuriates me about this is how the dude is calmly explaining to Bern like he's in the right. Yeah, it's the way they do things in their city, but still...besides, I would wish Bern would ask her own questions instead of standing there like a blubbering idiot while he cuts her down, such as, "You'd coldly let a human being die just because they couldn't afford to pay you to live? How could you live with yourself?"

I'm thinking Brion is trying to subtly parallel the question of healthcare in today's modern society, where emergency rooms have to help the uninsured who suddenly show up and want help, am I correct?  ???
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: Brion Foulke on January 01, 2013, 05:07:38 pm
Back to the 12/31 comic: Yeah, mister, it would be wrong not to at least call for help to stop a crime (and I believe it's against our law not to do so).

As far as I know, you are generally not compelled by law to assist in most countries, excepting certain situations.  (Like when you are the cause of the situation.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duty_to_rescue (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duty_to_rescue)

I'm thinking Brion is trying to subtly parallel the question of healthcare in today's modern society, where emergency rooms have to help the uninsured who suddenly show up and want help, am I correct?  ???

It's not all that subtle, but yeah in most modern societies we have the hippocratic oath.  Because of that, we all end up paying for the uninsured in the form of higher premiums, which is one of the main reasons why healthcare is so expensive in the U.S.  (The other reason is that the uninsured tend to avoid preventative care, leading to more emergency treatments which is more expensive for everyone in the long run.)  The only two solutions to this problem are either: 1. let uninsured sick people die, or 2. universal healthcare.  Most people won't consider option 1. a good solution for obvious reasons, but I wanted to imagine what a world would be like where people placed such a high value on personal responsibility that they were willing to go with that option.

Most liberal democracies in the world have a form of universal healthcare, the U.S. is one of the last holdouts.  But we don't let sick people die, either... so we basically have a bastardized version of universal healthcare, in which everyone pays for the uninsured, but only emergency treatment, which ends up being more costly and less efficient for everyone.
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: SAGG on January 01, 2013, 10:51:31 pm
Ah, I see. Thank you for responding, Brion.  ;D
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: BurnGarn on January 02, 2013, 06:54:32 am
I would wish Bern would ask her own questions instead of standing there like a blubbering idiot while he cuts her down, such as, "You'd coldly let a human being die just because they couldn't afford to pay you to live? How could you live with yourself?"

I'm thinking Brion is trying to subtly parallel the question of healthcare in today's modern society, where emergency rooms have to help the uninsured who suddenly show up and want help, am I correct?  ???

It isn't just health care. There's also the case of the Enforcer protection rackets, where you get the protection you pay for. And they still might not help you even if you offer to pay them (http://www.salon.com/2010/10/04/libertarian_fire_department/), especially if they're too busy helping other, wealthier clients, because there might not be enough of them to go around. Sure, it reeks of the dropping of a liberally biased anvil. But the reason it's so infuriating is because it is an accurate portrayal of conservatism, which puts personal responsibility above social justice.

Marvallo itself, as stated in a previous comic, abides by the anarcho-capitalist form of libertarianism, with all its plot holes, hypocrisy, inconsistency and parallels to modern America, along with all the inevitable tragedies that burst forth from turning economics into religion. Understanding that explains why Ron Paul is lecturing Bern on letting people die. It makes perfect sense in the context that capitalism and its cronies really are that abhorrent, and it leaves Marvallo open to criticisms that can be applied just as easily to real life countries.

Contrast the non-imperial opt-in one-country good government of the Conclave taking a bunch of steps towards libertarian socialism(/anarcho-communism), and looking like the Big Good because of it. Cue the unfortunate implications about lefitsm just being better for society as a whole.

Suffice it to say, the most important question isn't whether Ron Paul should let Grant die, or how it parallels modern issues. It's how long we'll have to keep reading his religious sermon on the glory of capitalism. There may be a valuable lesson in it, but if you're already a liberal, it's really just as groan inducing as Faux Newz. Or is this building up of resentment for Ron Paul supposed to make his comeuppance all the more enjoyable?
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: Shay on January 02, 2013, 09:42:54 am
One thing I think Marvallo has going for it? It seems less dangerous. Bern's been running around there for awhile now, and grew up there even, and hasn't run into any trouble... besides some unhelpful people.
Compare that to the rest of the world where you had the Xibulba collar and its two serial killer products, Clairen, Bloody Mary, Suspiria, that sorcerer and his wife... Outside of Marvollo, there's some sort of enemy appearing every other week. Enemies that won't hesitate to kill people, and do so very easily.
If news of those sorts of people and incidents keep drifting down to Marvollo... is it really any wonder that people might stay there, pay their dues, and know that they'll live a safe, happy life as long as they keep making the money to do so?
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: ipatrol on January 03, 2013, 12:02:42 am
I would wish Bern would ask her own questions instead of standing there like a blubbering idiot while he cuts her down, such as, "You'd coldly let a human being die just because they couldn't afford to pay you to live? How could you live with yourself?"

I'm thinking Brion is trying to subtly parallel the question of healthcare in today's modern society, where emergency rooms have to help the uninsured who suddenly show up and want help, am I correct?  ???

It isn't just health care. There's also the case of the Enforcer protection rackets, where you get the protection you pay for. And they still might not help you even if you offer to pay them (http://www.salon.com/2010/10/04/libertarian_fire_department/), especially if they're too busy helping other, wealthier clients, because there might not be enough of them to go around. Sure, it reeks of the dropping of a liberally biased anvil. But the reason it's so infuriating is because it is an accurate portrayal of conservatism, which puts personal responsibility above social justice.

Marvallo itself, as stated in a previous comic, abides by the anarcho-capitalist form of libertarianism, with all its plot holes, hypocrisy, inconsistency and parallels to modern America, along with all the inevitable tragedies that burst forth from turning economics into religion. Understanding that explains why Ron Paul is lecturing Bern on letting people die. It makes perfect sense in the context that capitalism and its cronies really are that abhorrent, and it leaves Marvallo open to criticisms that can be applied just as easily to real life countries.

Contrast the non-imperial opt-in one-country good government of the Conclave taking a bunch of steps towards libertarian socialism(/anarcho-communism), and looking like the Big Good because of it. Cue the unfortunate implications about lefitsm just being better for society as a whole.

Suffice it to say, the most important question isn't whether Ron Paul should let Grant die, or how it parallels modern issues. It's how long we'll have to keep reading his religious sermon on the glory of capitalism. There may be a valuable lesson in it, but if you're already a liberal, it's really just as groan inducing as Faux Newz. Or is this building up of resentment for Ron Paul supposed to make his comeuppance all the more enjoyable?

First, I think I'm liking you more with every post.

Second, I don't think Brion is praising capitalism, he's in fact highlighting its reality behind the thin veneer of personal responsibility and choice.

As the fiscal cliff looms back on Earth, I am reminded of the real reason for government spending on welfare. It's not charity; it is the prevention of civil unrest. Welfare is the bread in bread and circuses.

We live in Marvallo; even Europe is just a toned-down version of that which unapologetically rules the roost here. Capitalism extracts from us our waking hours and repays us in fractions of the value we create by the work we do in those hours.

I think it'd be appropriate to end with this:

Quote
Is there aught we hold in common with the greedy parasite,
Who would lash us into serfdom and would crush us with his might?
Is there anything left to us but to organize and fight?

For united, we are strong!
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: BurnGarn on January 03, 2013, 02:07:45 pm
One thing I think Marvallo has going for it? It seems less dangerous. Bern's been running around there for awhile now, and grew up there even, and hasn't run into any trouble... besides some unhelpful people.
Compare that to the rest of the world where you had the Xibulba collar and its two serial killer products, Clairen, Bloody Mary, Suspiria, that sorcerer and his wife... Outside of Marvollo, there's some sort of enemy appearing every other week. Enemies that won't hesitate to kill people, and do so very easily.
If news of those sorts of people and incidents keep drifting down to Marvollo... is it really any wonder that people might stay there, pay their dues, and know that they'll live a safe, happy life as long as they keep making the money to do so?

Social Darwinist Marvallo is not a safe or happy place to live. (http://pastebin.com/5cYuXwhg)

Second, I don't think Brion is praising capitalism, he's in fact highlighting its reality behind the thin veneer of personal responsibility and choice.

As the fiscal cliff looms back on Earth, I am reminded of the real reason for government spending on welfare. It's not charity; it is the prevention of civil unrest. Welfare is the bread in bread and circuses.

We live in Marvallo; even Europe is just a toned-down version of that which unapologetically rules the roost here. Capitalism extracts from us our waking hours and repays us in fractions of the value we create by the work we do in those hours.

I think it'd be appropriate to end with this:

Quote
Is there aught we hold in common with the greedy parasite,
Who would lash us into serfdom and would crush us with his might?
Is there anything left to us but to organize and fight?

For united, we are strong!

United or not, there's no way for commoners to improve their circumstances when business and government team up to look out for their own monied interests. (http://pastebin.com/bbfCsrcm)
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: Shay on January 03, 2013, 11:21:58 pm
1.It only seems less dangerous because the only time Bern's spent in Marvallo has been in the good neighborhoods, protected by badass former gang leader Polly.

Bern spent at least three years in a ghetto when she was in that gang growing up. And Bern hasn't exactly been protected from anything except for loud drunks who weren't even bothering her specifically. We've seen literally NO actual enemies in Marvallo.
We have a hint that Bern's memories of this place are 'dark', but that's not that specific.

But it's not like Marvallo doesn't have villains. There's just no reason they'd appear out of nowhere.

Why not? That's what happens everywhere else. Assuming the ghettoes are breeding grounds for the worst kind of people... wouldn't it spill over? Wouldn't there be stories of 'the twenty people murdered last week' or some other such gossip going on in the background?
The healer implied that being forced to heal is something that shouldn't happen in her neighborhood because of 'dues'. But no one has expressed any sort of fear or disgust for the ghettoes and what happens there, pity for those who live there, so on.

In short: The ghettoes don't sound so much like a hellscape of violence and awful, unthinkable deeds. They sound more like... the wrong side of the tracks, where you're likely to get mugged, or shot at if you piss off someone. Which, again, is a bit better than the monsters that Iscariot keeps pumping out.

Both Clairen and Bloody Mary just happened to be in Iscariot, because that's where the comic was set at the time.
...
Noventia's villainy taking place in Iscariot is also a matter of the comic's setting, since laws against violence wouldn't have stopped the clearly psychotic housewife from killing Seraph, who wasn't even "dangerous" or a villain to begin with.

Arguing away things with 'because that's where the heroes were', isn't really an argument.
Clairen, was already a capable swordswoman, and an assassin (I believe?) before getting the Thin Man treatment. And it was a pretty tame treatment. You can't blame her on the Thin Man, she did that stuff all on her own.

Bloody Mary was created, but she was loose in that town for... a long time. The Phalanx 'protection' is pretty equal to Marvallo's in that regard. Spots get missed, but that doesn't reflect on the system as a whole. It just means you need more people to keep those spots from getting missed: Which is what Polly was saying.

And technically, the psychotic housewife killed him once and managed to get away with it for like... MONTHS. No one ever caught her, and authorities didn't seem to be chasing after her. The only reason she was stopped was because of the murder/suicide thing she did with her husband.

In Iscariot we've heard about, or directly seen: mass murderers, insanely powerful magical objects that may turn you INTO a mass murderer, people disappearing, various Thin Man subjects of increasing horror, and so on. We've seen and heard of none of that in Marvallo.

The protection in Marvollo is probably about the same in Iscariot. The same number of people sign up to be Enforcers, as sign up to be Phalanx/guards/security for Iscariot. The difference is that in Iscariot, there's some seriously scary stuff going on that doesn't seem to have a parallel in Marvallo.

The rest of your stuff was a bit too political for me to tackle.
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: BurnGarn on January 04, 2013, 09:29:14 am
Bern spent at least three years in a ghetto when she was in that gang growing up. And Bern hasn't exactly been protected from anything except for loud drunks who weren't even bothering her specifically. We've seen literally NO actual enemies in Marvallo.
We have a hint that Bern's memories of this place are 'dark', but that's not that specific.

Like I said. It's because the only time the comic shifts to Marvallo is in a rosy nostalgic flashback or when Bern's traversing the safety of upper class neighborhoods. There's a case to be made that Bern herself is an "enemy" considering she's in the process of mugging a healer in the name of justice. If the comic had taken place in Marvallo from the beginning, there would have surely been adversaries.

Why not? That's what happens everywhere else. Assuming the ghettoes are breeding grounds for the worst kind of people... wouldn't it spill over? Wouldn't there be stories of 'the twenty people murdered last week' or some other such gossip going on in the background?
The healer implied that being forced to heal is something that shouldn't happen in her neighborhood because of 'dues'. But no one has expressed any sort of fear or disgust for the ghettoes and what happens there, pity for those who live there, so on.

In short: The ghettoes don't sound so much like a hellscape of violence and awful, unthinkable deeds. They sound more like... the wrong side of the tracks, where you're likely to get mugged, or shot at if you piss off someone. Which, again, is a bit better than the monsters that Iscariot keeps pumping out.

It's more like the upper class in Marvallo is a lot like the upper class in real life. Rich people like a certain former post-Eisenhower Republican presidential candidate don't care about poor people. As long as what happens in the ghettos stays in the ghettos, why would they care? They've got Enforcers protecting them. The one time the ghettos were mentioned, though, it was with shock at Bern's use of violence. Which implies that the violent wrecking of business is commonplace, just not in "decent" neighborhoods.

As for the reason it wouldn't spill over is because the Enforcers are clearly good at their job. They'd have to be, otherwise people would stop paying them. That, and there's no reason thugs and gangs would seek to incite their wrath when they've got free reign to do whatever they please in the ghettos. Only an idiot would fuck up the chance to build a criminal enterprise in a lawless area filled with potential victims. And the vigilante gangs are the opposite. Polly's gang and such would have an interest in fighting other gangs to make sure the violence doesn't spread. Evil vs evil, so to speak. So it's probably a matter of the gangs being too busy killing each other to expand their territory. If you're a conspiracy theorist, there's even a chance that the Enforcers might have struck a deal with the ghetto thugs to stay out of their business if they stay out of the upper class neighborhoods. Just because it hasn't happened doesn't mean everything's all bright and sunny. There's just far too much of Marvallo that we've never seen. Even so, one can draw conclusions from deductive reasoning and real life parallels.

Also, Iscariot doesn't pump out monsters. It's the Thin Man, who is, as far as we know, not in any way affiliated with the Iscariot government and has eluded capture solely because he's a big bad (who might even possess with an omniscient morality license) whose asskicking equals authority amongst his ranks. Or he's a magnificent chessmaster whose talent and intellect allow him to come out as the victor in any gambit roulette. Either way, it's not Iscariot's fault that there just happens to be a sorcerer who's really good at it. What could the Conclave possibly do against a villain even the main characters are powerless against? How would Marvallo fare any better if he were to set up shop there? How do you know that the Thin Man, the one behind most of the villains the party has faced, isn't actually The Great Benefactor, who's using the dues paid to him to fund his research into monster girls?

Clairen, was already a capable swordswoman, and an assassin (I believe?) before getting the Thin Man treatment. And it was a pretty tame treatment. You can't blame her on the Thin Man, she did that stuff all on her own.

Bloody Mary was created, but she was loose in that town for... a long time. The Phalanx 'protection' is pretty equal to Marvallo's in that regard. Spots get missed, but that doesn't reflect on the system as a whole. It just means you need more people to keep those spots from getting missed: Which is what Polly was saying.

And technically, the psychotic housewife killed him once and managed to get away with it for like... MONTHS. No one ever caught her, and authorities didn't seem to be chasing after her. The only reason she was stopped was because of the murder/suicide thing she did with her husband.

In Iscariot we've heard about, or directly seen: mass murderers, insanely powerful magical objects that may turn you INTO a mass murderer, people disappearing, various Thin Man subjects of increasing horror, and so on. We've seen and heard of none of that in Marvallo.

The protection in Marvollo is probably about the same in Iscariot. The same number of people sign up to be Enforcers, as sign up to be Phalanx/guards/security for Iscariot. The difference is that in Iscariot, there's some seriously scary stuff going on that doesn't seem to have a parallel in Marvallo.

The rest of your stuff was a bit too political for me to tackle.

Clairen would've been dead ten times over if she wasn't immune to attack from half the world's population. Or at least she wouldn't have had as much success as an assassin if her targets could fight back. This is obvious in Book 0, where the only reason she was able to get so far into the castle with ease was because of the Thin Man's anti-man tat job. The moment she came into contact with a competent fighter, who wasn't even a famous goddess amongst swordsmen or anything of the sort, her ass was thoroughly handed to her on a silver platter. What's more, Bern was handicapping herself by using a child's fighting style. Clairen got owned by kiddy games. Clearly, she was not as formidable as you make her out to be.

As for Mary, it was only three months. But let's be real. The entire Flipside world is filled with dangerous sorcerers. The problem is, the Phalanx differ from the Enforcers in that they don't abandon those in need. Unfortunately, like the Enforcers, the Phalanx aren't unlimited in number.  Which is clearly why there's less protection and it takes longer. Protection is rationed and prioritized, but always equally distributed, even to small out of the way towns that don't even have a level 3 healer. But the problem is sure to be solved once the Phalanx get there, like Shepard's big damn hero moment pretty much made 10 chapters worth of conflict moot. Truly, Shepard is a badass.

The point is, it's not that the protection is "equal" or that spots get missed. Neither of those things is true. The Phalanx knew what was going on. Suspiria even rushed there without their consent, and her arrival was delayed by who knows how long due to the fact that she was traveling without portals. Still, it'd obviously take longer to organize the distribution of Phalanx forces than it would if they were solely focused on protecting the wealthy. If they were like the Enforcers, there wouldn't have even been any Phalanx in that small town. Not Suspiria, or her backup. The town would've been stuck at Mary's mercy, because even the heroes couldn't stop a nightmare fueled knight of cerebus. Suffice it to say, that town would've been doomed as fuck. Without Suspiria and Kin around to catch the tragedy ball, the heroes would've had their shit wrecked in any believable scenario. Bern would've been deader than dead, and the others would've soon followed unless they abandoned the townspeople. In that regard, Phalanx protection is just that much better than the Enforcers' pay-to-protect way of doing business.

As for Noventia, part of the reason she got away with it might've been the fact that Seraph was trying to be dead to everyone but his traveling companions. The guy's been killed once, and telling the authorities about Noventia would've just made him that much easier a target by broadcasting his location. I mean, the guy wanted to live to train his disciples, not get knifed in the middle of a city while everyone around him is powerless to stop it. What's more, a jerkass he may be, but he genuinely did seem to care for his wife up to a point, so much so that he didn't just dump her ass when she started getting bitchy. The only time he expressly wanted to harm her was when he was driven to do so out of desperation. Even when she appeared before him in public without an assassin, good guy Seraph was only concerned with preventing conflict. There's a case to be made that he's just too damn nice to want the Phalanx to kill her ass dead. Indeed, Seraph had a horrible case of nice guy syndrome. If he didn't still love Noventia to some degree, there's no reason he wouldn't have set it up so that she was killed by the Phalanx. But seeing as he was the only witness to the crime, and he still had the hots for Noventia's god tier hairjobs, that would put the Phalanx completely out of the loop and incapable of knowing, or even acting upon, what happened. They're not omnipotent. As far as they knew, Seraph was dead, killed by an assassin that wasn't enough of a national threat to send a one man army to tear her shit up. And they were right. All it took was a single knight using a child's fighting style to do the assassin in. Not just her, but also the other female assassins from the beginning of Book 0.

It's more like assassins aren't so much dangerous, as they are so weak that any decent bodyguard or knight would be able to stop them if the person targeted actually sought help. Unfortunately, by virtue of them being assassins, the only witnesses to their crimes are too dead to point the finger at them. It's kind of a catch 22 in that their line of work is self-protecting. But at the same time, if they ever ran into trouble themselves, their lives would be forfeit. But then again, assassins and jealous wives are the least of the Phalanx' problems with guys in Infinity +1 bondage collars and scythe wielding cannibals running around killing everything around them. Omnicidal maniacs are a much more important issue than hired thugs.

As for seeing none of that in Marvallo, well, we've seen, like, 50+ chapters of Iscariot, and about 3 or 4 in Marvallo, and it's more of a Bern centered side story than a main plot. One that takes place in a peaceful upper class neighborhood protected by a badass banchou that nobody fucks with. I think you're mistaking Marvallo for a paradise based on "out of sight out of mind." It's like going outside and saying there aren't any terrorists because you don't see them. Or that 9/11 never happened because you've never heard of it, weren't in new york and don't know anyone affected by it. It's more like you're thinking in a bubble impervious to facts, logic and reality, and drawing conclusions from that without ever seeing more than just a single neighborhood in Marvallo. It's like saying Wall Street is America, and everywhere in America is exactly the same as it is. And even within the bubble the comic has created, the people are still scumbags. So what would scumbag Marvallians not bound by law be like? I'd wager they're as bad as Iscariotian criminals, if not worse, unless the author intends to break suspension of disbelief and paint Marvallo as a realistically unsustainable capitalist paradise where chaos and anarchy breed rainbows and sunshine. Suffice it to say, Afghanistan knows what not having a strong central government is like, and it's not buying any of that shit about everyone in lawless lands just getting along fine and dandy.

And...how the heck do you know how many people sign up to be Phalanx and Enforcers? We've seen far more Phalanx than Enforcers, so by your "BECAUSE I SEE IT" logic, isn't it actually the case that there are more Phalanx than Enforcers? You're setting up a logical fallacy based on false equivalence using everyone's general ignorance of Marvallo's ghettoes as proof of Marvallo's perfection. Your entire argument is based on things you don't or couldn't possibly know. It even runs counter to logic, deductive reasoning and reality itself.

Suffice it to say, if politics makes you squeamish, then you're probably not well versed enough in the realities of governing and economics to accurately analyze the unfortunate implications that stem from the way Marvallo's being run based on what happens in such situations in real life. I mean, we've seen what happens when poor people are herded into lawless lands. And they're not places you'd walk into with the cocksure assumption that somebody isn't going to mug the fuck out of you. In fact, it's a wonder if nobody's done that to you yet. Because you seem to have a skewed perception of the world being safer than it is, if you judge the safety of a place based on whether you can see criminals around. That's...a horribly inaccurate standard to go by. Mostly because you can't possibly know based on what you see. Judging an environment accurately requires a more nuanced approach, as opposed to your "one neighborhood" way of viewing an entire society.
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: Shay on January 04, 2013, 11:18:39 am
Ugh... That's entirely too much stuff to respond to. K.I.S.S. You know?

The Thin Man is in Iscariot, has been for awhile, and hasn't been caught. Is that Iscariot's fault? No. But that doesn't matter to the average person.
The point is, there's a dangerous man creating monsters in Iscariot, and no one seems to be able to catch him. There is NOT a dangerous man of that kind in Marvallo.
There's no doubt that some people will choose the monster-free country, especially if rumour travels about what's happening in Iscariot.

People are living in Marvallo. All I'm doing is proposing one reason why they might have chosen to live there.
You seem a little jumpy at people who defend the place though.
Chill out a bit. There's no need to be quite as demeaning as you're being.
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: Brion Foulke on January 04, 2013, 01:34:47 pm
No more walls of text in the chapter discussion thread, please?
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: BurnGarn on January 05, 2013, 12:12:15 pm
No more walls of text in the chapter discussion thread, please?

You know, that seems vaguely contrary to some underlying aesop in the comic from back when it was good. Oh irony. But alright, I'll try to keep it simpler. For great anti-intellectualism!

There's no doubt that some people will choose the monster-free country, especially if rumour travels about what's happening in Iscariot.

People are living in Marvallo. All I'm doing is proposing one reason why they might have chosen to live there.
You seem a little jumpy at people who defend the place though.
Chill out a bit. There's no need to be quite as demeaning as you're being.

I apologize for being demeaning, but anyone with a brain knows that an entire society can't be judged based on one single upper class neighborhood. That's obviously moronic. It's the kind of thing anyone would realize is wrong if you just sat down and thought about it for a minute. But that stupidity is the basis for your opinion, and stupid opinions are kind of my berserk button. Now, I've already outlined examples of why you're wrong, which obviously nobody even read. But if you're going to continue arguing a logical fallacy, well, I guess it was my mistake for responding, since I can no better disprove broken logic than I can the existence of a deity.

Back on topic, the newest page is kind of funny. From the pathetic way Bern's behaving, I half expect her to collapse on the floor and burst into tears about how she never even wanted to be a knight.
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: Daisuki-chan on January 05, 2013, 10:39:38 pm
No more walls of text in the chapter discussion thread, please?

You know, that seems vaguely contrary to some underlying aesop in the comic from back when it was good. Oh irony. But alright, I'll try to keep it simpler. For great anti-intellectualism!

There's no doubt that some people will choose the monster-free country, especially if rumour travels about what's happening in Iscariot.

People are living in Marvallo. All I'm doing is proposing one reason why they might have chosen to live there.
You seem a little jumpy at people who defend the place though.
Chill out a bit. There's no need to be quite as demeaning as you're being.

I apologize for being demeaning, but anyone with a brain knows that an entire society can't be judged based on one single upper class neighborhood. That's obviously moronic. It's the kind of thing anyone would realize is wrong if you just sat down and thought about it for a minute. But that stupidity is the basis for your opinion, and stupid opinions are kind of my berserk button. Now, I've already outlined examples of why you're wrong, which obviously nobody even read. But if you're going to continue arguing a logical fallacy, well, I guess it was my mistake for responding, since I can no better disprove broken logic than I can the existence of a deity.

Back on topic, the newest page is kind of funny. From the pathetic way Bern's behaving, I half expect her to collapse on the floor and burst into tears about how she never even wanted to be a knight.

In United or not, there's no way for commoners to improve their circumstances when business and government team up to look out for their own monied interests. (http://pastebin.com/bbfCsrcm) you said:

"Unfortunately, fascism is hard to fight. Normally you'd have business and government fighting and weakening one another. When they work together, you need some outside force like another country or a roving band of adventurers to come in and shake everything up. Otherwise, fascism remains intact and the people suffer under it. Let's just hope The Great Benefactor doesn't decide to try spreading the glory of Marvallo into Iscariot. Luckily, Iscariot is a land of badass ruled by the big good, so at the very least it's probably still safe from being overrun by the wealthy ruling class."

Normally you'd have business and government fighting and weakening one another? No, normally you'd have corruption, and lots of it. Flipside to my knowledge doesn't even have "modern democracies", and even those have plenty of lobbying and job offers to politicians from businesses, even if you try to focus on the "best" ones in Europe. "Lower" forms of government tend to have even more corruption. The only way businesses care less is if your nation is of trivial importance, but then your nation is beholden to other nations for defense, and they will twist your arm, including at the behest of powerful businesses if the powerful businesses really want something, if they have a reason.

You fancy yourself politically knowledgeable and intellectual, but you look like an extremist who "imposes" his assumptions onesidedly on everything to me. This is beyond your love of tropes and TTGL (Flipside is not TTGL; get over it). Tell me exactly why gangs ruling would constantly turn the area into a "hellscape"? In real life gangs try to gain money and power like other groups. It's true that they tend to accept fewer limitations on their acts when compared to other groups of the same level of power, but that doesn't mean that they want to constantly be murdering and thus be getting murdered in return. Just like nations, gangs will typically not war forever, and will work out their place in time, resulting in (in their case) an uneasy peace. I'm not saying it would be great, but there's no reason it must be a hellscape.

Anyway, you say so much, but you don't tend to admit that there are any upsides in a system that isn't of your own preference, nor do you seem to allow positive motivations to maintainers of such a system. This is not the same as favoring an inferior system over a superior one, even given agreement between you and others on the rankings of systems, which isn't a given. Perhaps you admit that "the wealthy" enjoy this system, but you naturally value that at zero, so it doesn't count for much. Perhaps you should just accept the story for what it is rather than skipping huge portions of it only to then constantly complain with huge posts that Brion isn't TTGLing, politicizing, and troping Flipside to your tastes? TTGL is a shounen, and if you had to similarly classify Flipside it would be a seinen. Therefore TTGL's heavily shounen aspects are not something you should expect in Flipside.
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: ipatrol on January 06, 2013, 02:43:35 am
Fascism is just capitalism stripped of its democratic veneer. I would not call Marvallo fascist because fascism is by definition never crypto-anything.

We can fight this system of oppression. Us commoners can unite and together, standing firm, we will triumph. The system needs us for our labor, and that is its inherent weakness.

Quote
They have taken untold billions that they never toiled to earn,
But without our brain and muscle not a single wheel can turn.
We can break their haughty power, gain our freedom when we learn.

That united we are strong!
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: Shay on January 07, 2013, 09:15:30 pm
Oh. This latest page made me love Bernadette a little bit more.

I really like this arc.
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: Kiran on January 08, 2013, 12:22:45 am
Oh. This latest page made me love Bernadette a little bit more.

I really like this arc.
Yeah, surprisingly in a way she managed to stay true to her own moral code...
She's done a bad thing, so she simply waited to be punished for it.
I kinda expected she would try to run away at least leaving this country and it's laws.

And now we see men in black edition, I wonder what the punishment for such crime as Bern did is here, she extorted a free pricy service out of a healer by threatening her, and then willingly got arrested.
I rather doubt that courts exist here, I also kinda doubt Polly would get Bern out of the hook, cause that would make the chapter pointless, so I think Bern will need to pay the price of her own morally good doings.
If all is defined by money here, then in some way Bern will need to give them back that amount she had "stolen".

From other side if this system would kill every criminal, then it would be quite effective in keeping everything correct to their standard.
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: Abstract Vagabond on January 08, 2013, 01:31:28 am
While I mentioned that Bern did commit a wrong, her desperation was understandable. And, you know, now that I think of it, I'm calling BS on that old dude's excuse of going out of business if he was kind like that. If he doesn't have to pay taxes or any such government expenses, living in such a "free" piece of land and all, who the HELL is he having to pay in order to justify his reasoning let alone justify the insane price he's asking? The healer girl? A simple "now hiring: healer that isn't into highway robbery" sign wouldn't do?

So, now we're at the point where Bern is accepting whatever punishment she's about to receive (which given that place, should be as insane as their prices) with her knightress in shining gothgear pleading to stop the madness as if anyone in that room knows what a world outside of madness looks like. And... wait a minute... are these the people the old dude pays to keep his business afloat? If so, are we sure he's not paying taxes? I guess if they decide to call it something else, they could technically say there's no taxes though anyone with half a brain can tell there is. Did these people come into his healing parlor one day and say, "Nice place you got here. Would be a shame if something happened to it. Ba da bing."? Am I giving Brion material for his next intermission? j/k

Well, I'll see where this heads off to and determine what other thoughts could enter my head.
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: BurnGarn on January 08, 2013, 07:52:39 am
So...is the new page supposed to paint Bern in a positive light?

Because all it does is show how she doesn't take responsibility for her actions, and instead lets Polly bail her out for mugging a healer. The whole non-resistance thing is a moot point when she knows full well that her current best bud is an Enforcer who can and will cover her ass due to being madly in love with her. Embracing cronyism with open arms, as opposed to owning the fact that she's a violent criminal, actually makes her look worse than fighting off the Enforcers would. It shows she doesn't have the courage of her convictions, otherwise, if she truly believed she was in the right, there's other no reason for her to let herself be taken than to have Polly come to the rescue.

She still has someone to love, someone to live for, and wouldn't that be a heck of a lot more important than respecting the laws and culture that would've left her father to rot away and die on the street? In this one instance, I really do wish Bern would take personal responsibility, if only because the alternative is much more shameful. The irony is that, by taking faux responsibility, she's essentially absolving herself of it like a coward, and simply giving up.

Bern...looks like a pathetic failure hero by the end of this chapter. Even more so than necessary. It seems like this chapter is entirely dedicated entirely to how much Bern sucks as a main character. Does the writer hate her or something? Because I'm really not sure what kind of entertainment or aesop is supposed to be had. The new page only makes me thing the comic would've been better off had Mary succeeded in offing Bern, just to spare her the shame conga she's currently dancing.
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: Jindra34 on January 08, 2013, 11:06:14 am
BurnGarn please don't base your responses on predictions. Or not judge until things are all said and done. For all you know Bern could end up telling Polly to but out and let things resolve properly.
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: Daisuki-chan on January 08, 2013, 04:30:57 pm
It can't be helped. The anti-intellectual only believes in what he thinks of, and doesn't often at all like Flipside or its characters anyway, so it's no wonder that he one-sidedly complains all the time. Brion sure is tolerant to let him keep spewing when odds are not so low that he's simply a troll, possibly taking "revenge" for Flipside not turning out to be TTGL.
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: IronSoul on January 08, 2013, 08:20:06 pm
I think both of you are being fairly opinionated right now.

I think Burn's argument has some merit. I think her actions were more impulsive than a matter of relying on Polly to bail her out, but I'm not a big fan of the turn this scene seems to be taking. Bern's a main character and naturally needs an "out", but I wish there had been a little more time before Polly had shown up. It feels a little instantaneous for the sake of the story, though Polly's standing with the enforcers and her general personality do at least make her sudden arrival make sense.
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: Brion Foulke on January 09, 2013, 01:20:45 am
I apologize for being demeaning, but anyone with a brain knows that an entire society can't be judged based on one single upper class neighborhood. That's obviously moronic. It's the kind of thing anyone would realize is wrong if you just sat down and thought about it for a minute. But that stupidity is the basis for your opinion, and stupid opinions are kind of my berserk button.

These kind of insults are unacceptable.  Also, while it's okay to post criticism, it's not okay to post lots of meandering ranting posts, especially if the purpose of those posts seems to be to fill the thread with negativity.

So, I'm going to place a 1 week ban on you.  You are welcome to come back after 1 week so long as you take a more respectful tone with others, and exercise some restraint.
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: Shay on January 09, 2013, 09:29:08 am

I apologize for being demeaning, but anyone with a brain knows that an entire society can't be judged based on one single upper class neighborhood. That's obviously moronic. It's the kind of thing anyone would realize is wrong if you just sat down and thought about it for a minute. But that stupidity is the basis for your opinion, and stupid opinions are kind of my berserk button.

These kind of insults are unacceptable.  Also, while it's okay to post criticism, it's not okay to post lots of meandering ranting posts, especially if the purpose of those posts seems to be to fill the thread with negativity.

So, I'm going to place a 1 week ban on you.  You are welcome to come back after 1 week so long as you take a more respectful tone with others, and exercise some restraint.

Thank you.

I think both of you are being fairly opinionated right now.

I think Burn's argument has some merit. I think her actions were more impulsive than a matter of relying on Polly to bail her out, but I'm not a big fan of the turn this scene seems to be taking. Bern's a main character and naturally needs an "out", but I wish there had been a little more time before Polly had shown up. It feels a little instantaneous for the sake of the story, though Polly's standing with the enforcers and her general personality do at least make her sudden arrival make sense.

I'm sure that Polly means to come in and release Bern no matter what. But who says she has the authority to do that? And if she tries to do it by force, I can't see Bern being cool with that. If Bern wanted to escape the law by force, or by running, she already had the means to do so. And she didn't.
I'm more of the opinion that Bern will refuse all help, believing that she knowingly broke the rules and so deserves the punishment.
The only thing that might change any of this is if Bern finds out May has been kidnapped.

(Unless the 'sham' comment by Polly isn't just an insult she's using and this is, in fact, a false proceeding in some way?? )
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: Kiran on January 09, 2013, 09:42:33 am

(Unless the 'sham' comment by Polly isn't just an insult she's using and this is, in fact, a false proceeding in some way?? )
This is something which confused me massively here, why she used such a word where the situation is pretty clear, Bern broke Marvallo law, extorted a free service and then willingly gone with Enforcers for punishment, how that can be called like that?

Especially from Polly mouth who so far was potrayed as a true supporter of this system which in her way is much better than past situation she had with her vigilante gang...
Obviously personal relation toBern plays some emotionalrole here...
Or maybe we will learn now that Enforcers, or maybe citizens here, are too some kind of corrupted bunch which fabricates evidence or confessions to get people to pay them for crimes they didn't do?
Few fake witnesses, some naive visitors to this country and everyone can be arrested to pay up for their "crimes".

Maybe t wil be explainedbeter with today's update.

Also I too hope that there will be some consequences of Bern action, than just Polly saving her route.
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: Jindra34 on January 09, 2013, 12:29:16 pm

(Unless the 'sham' comment by Polly isn't just an insult she's using and this is, in fact, a false proceeding in some way?? )
This is something which confused me massively here, why she used such a word where the situation is pretty clear, Bern broke Marvallo law, extorted a free service and then willingly gone with Enforcers for punishment, how that can be called like that?

The only law in Marvallo is no violence http://flipside.keenspot.com/comic.php?i=1191 (http://flipside.keenspot.com/comic.php?i=1191) . So how this plays out will depend on how that law is applied, namely does defending yourself from a thug still get you in trouble? And what would constitute proper provocation, if anything. And whether those two guys were Enforcers would play into it.
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: Shay on January 09, 2013, 12:46:49 pm
Maybe trying to throw Bern out of the house was something the Healer wasn't supposed to do. It was violent action, after all. And by doing it, maybe forfeited any legal action she could take against Bern later? Thus making this a sham.

In a completely unrelated curiosity... I wonder how Stalkers are dealt with?
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: Jindra34 on January 09, 2013, 02:52:53 pm
Maybe trying to throw Bern out of the house was something the Healer wasn't supposed to do. It was violent action, after all. And by doing it, maybe forfeited any legal action she could take against Bern later? Thus making this a sham.

In a completely unrelated curiosity... I wonder how Stalkers are dealt with?
Well Bern still did some violent action herself though. But it is odd that the law against violence is the only law, after all none of Bern's extortion was particularly violent, so there should be no legal ramifications of that. The beating up of two people who started the fight themselves? Maybe, depending on how the law goes and whether they were Enforcers (given that they seem to have something of an exception to the one law).
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: Brion Foulke on January 09, 2013, 02:55:29 pm
In a completely unrelated curiosity... I wonder how Stalkers are dealt with?

If you tell them you don't want to be touched, then they can't legally touch you.  If you tell them you want them off your private property, then they can't legally be on your property.  Otherwise they can do whatever they want.
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: Jindra34 on January 09, 2013, 03:17:35 pm
In a completely unrelated curiosity... I wonder how Stalkers are dealt with?

If you tell them you don't want to be touched, then they can't legally touch you.  If you tell them you want them off your private property, then they can't legally be on your property.  Otherwise they can do whatever they want.
Even though the only law is 'No Violence Allowed'? How does that work?
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: Brion Foulke on January 09, 2013, 06:17:48 pm
Even though the only law is 'No Violence Allowed'? How does that work?

This is my fault because in the comic when I first introduces this concept I had Polly use the word violence.  I probably should have had her use the word "force," since that is what is actually illegal.  It basically has the same legal meaning as how we use the word "force" here: it includes violence, but it also means you can't take someone's property or violate their rights by force.  So it includes assault, theft, trespassing, and even violating contracts.
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: Abstract Vagabond on January 09, 2013, 11:21:56 pm
Is this the world (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sen8Tn8CBA4) Polly's living in now?
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: Kiran on January 10, 2013, 12:13:26 am
1000 marks?

Isn't this something similiar to death by a thousand cuts concept?

Seeing how grim this sounds it's basically slow death penalty or heavy mutilation for an assault where no one died, just 2 guys were beaten down and a free service was extorted.

Kill your law brakers and you get a clean perfect society...

So while May is being changed into some kind superior and/or monster being Bern will be either heavy beaten or cut which will leave these 1000 marks on her body...
And it seems she will take the penalty cause in her own moral code she herself thinks she broke the law as the KFC guy told her, that's why she stayed, even if it was justified by saving a person.

I can see Bern basically say Polly that she should leave her alone,and seeing this convo between Enforcers they seem tonot like each other too much...

Also from where these guys would know Polly connection to Bern?

In some way I can understand what BurnGarn said about Bern perspective in the comic, lately it's always bad things which happen to her on almost constant basis, and seeing how the plot goes the perspective seems to be even worse for the future.
But after all this comic is fueled mostly by drama revolving the main set of characters, than about happy things happening to them(I still hope Crest will get a bit of similiar treatment as Bern and May got so far) ;)
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: Stargoat on January 10, 2013, 05:07:24 am
Supersaiyan Maytag might be a wee bit displeased if someone brutally executes Bern.
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: Shay on January 10, 2013, 12:15:21 pm
'Marks' could just mean 'lashings'. So, Bern would get a thousand strikes of the whip.

...Still a pretty brutal punishment though.
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: Jindra34 on January 10, 2013, 02:52:26 pm
'Marks' could just mean 'lashings'. So, Bern would get a thousand strikes of the whip.

...Still a pretty brutal punishment though.
Yeah it is, doubly so given that the Romans used it as a punishment for runaway slaves. Lets hope its just a fine of some sort. Or some kind of community service.
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: Stargoat on January 10, 2013, 07:31:07 pm
Men in the Napoleonic English navy could survive one thousand lashes from a normal cat if they were spaced out over a few days or weeks (and sometimes even if not such as with William Mitchell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Mitchell_%28Royal_Navy_officer%29)).  Still, one does not like the idea of Bern going through that.
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: Druk on January 11, 2013, 08:41:13 am
Regardless of the severity, I wouldn't be surprised at all if Bern is given the ability to work it off, i.e. pay for some/all of the sentence with cash. As they said, money is life.

Still don't quite understand how Polly is so incredulous, though. Maybe it's so rare to see someone actually committing a crime in the less ghetto-y parts of the city that she's unused to seeing someone held accountable?
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: Shay on January 11, 2013, 10:38:54 pm
Oh god that will wreck Bern. And has some similarities to the whole 'Hurting May to punish Bern' thing back in the beginning with the cutting off of fingers and... breasts. But, I don't think they'll go for it.

The Enforcers don't know Bern like we do. They don't know that hurting those around her is a more effective punishment. ( Or that tossing her back and forth through a portal would be pretty punishing also. )

So they'd be hurting their Enforcer, letting Bern go 'free' and hoping that their friendship is important enough that Bern is still punished by it. Which is right, but again, they don't know that.

Why trade a definite punishment, for one that may work and also hurts your employee?
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: Kiran on January 12, 2013, 12:19:32 am
Oh god that will wreck Bern. And has some similarities to the whole 'Hurting May to punish Bern' thing back in the beginning with the cutting off of fingers and... breasts. But, I don't think they'll go for it.

The Enforcers don't know Bern like we do. They don't know that hurting those around her is a more effective punishment. ( Or that tossing her back and forth through a portal would be pretty punishing also. )

So they'd be hurting their Enforcer, letting Bern go 'free' and hoping that their friendship is important enough that Bern is still punished by it. Which is right, but again, they don't know that.

Why trade a definite punishment, for one that may work and also hurts your employee?
We don't know laws between Enforcers, if indeed Bern was Polly responsibility and done something bad like Polly stated it I think it could be expected that Polly could take the blame for it and with that the punishment...
But I agree, this will hurt Bern more than if she would get the punishment herself, especially if through the process Polly would get killed or heavy mutilated or become disabled...
I don't think Bern could live with herself if that happened, of course we know that all can be fixed in Iscariot as long the patient is alive...
I just hope that Bern will speak and take the punishment too, like 50/50 at least, or whole, Polly only fault is that she wasn't there but it was Bern own action of breaking Marvallo laws to heal her father(even if morally right).
Where is personal responsibility if Polly will take Bern punishment like that?
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: Daisuki-chan on January 12, 2013, 10:26:18 pm
"Personal responsibility" was just an argument of the healer's father, not any official policy of the nation, as far as I know.
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: Kiran on January 13, 2013, 03:59:15 am
"Personal responsibility" was just an argument of the healer's father, not any official policy of the nation, as far as I know.
I meant it more as Bern own personal responsibility for what she did.

Also I wonder what Grant will do when he will wake up sober and learn that his only daughter and/or her friend got such punishment for healing him, I still hope that guy has some spark to set up than just being old alcoholic geezer who doesn't care about anything anymore.

He was a knight who had some skills after all, who taught Bern what she currently knows, even if that's more childish style of fightning than something real if I understand that correctly(but again why other warriors with their adult fightning style couldn't do what Bern did is too a bit amusing).
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: Shay on January 14, 2013, 03:17:16 pm

Also I wonder what Grant will do when he will wake up sober and learn that his only daughter and/or her friend got such punishment for healing him, I still hope that guy has some spark to set up than just being old alcoholic geezer who doesn't care about anything anymore.

I don't know. I would rather Grant stay as he is.  Having some transformation into his old hero self/good father figure because Bern's sacrifice 'showed him the error of his ways'? It's a little cliche.

I would rather he continue drinking himself to death because, y'know, that happens sometimes. People destroy themselves, and there's nothing you can do to stop them, no matter how hard you try or how much you sacrifice. And I think that's an okay moral for Bern to learn.
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: Kiran on January 15, 2013, 12:52:14 am

Also I wonder what Grant will do when he will wake up sober and learn that his only daughter and/or her friend got such punishment for healing him, I still hope that guy has some spark to set up than just being old alcoholic geezer who doesn't care about anything anymore.

I don't know. I would rather Grant stay as he is.  Having some transformation into his old hero self/good father figure because Bern's sacrifice 'showed him the error of his ways'? It's a little cliche.

I would rather he continue drinking himself to death because, y'know, that happens sometimes. People destroy themselves, and there's nothing you can do to stop them, no matter how hard you try or how much you sacrifice. And I think that's an okay moral for Bern to learn.
I would want to see some positive cliche in Flipside for once ::)
Why not?

But again for story direction, if Bern would be back from her punishment just to see her father again drunk to death, damn that should be a powerful eye opener for her to modify her moral course a bit.

I suppose that too wouldn't be a bad route.
I wonder if we will get to see the scene of the torture punishment or we will just skip to after effect.
Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: Shay on January 15, 2013, 08:08:03 am

Alright, so I'm shipping Polly/Bern pretty hard right now.

With Bern and May, May is the young, energetic social girl that everyone loves being around. And Bern ends up taking care of her quite a bit, saving her from danger, being an emotional rock, so on. She's the parent to May's 'child' in many ways. 

I see Polly either as Bern's equal, or a reverse of the situation with May. The whole 'taking care of Bern' thing? That's not something May (or most people) can really do.

(Not that May doesn't provide support in her own way. But still. I'm really warming up to Polly here, and hoping for some side by side fighting in an arena. <3)

I would want to see some positive cliche in Flipside for once ::)
Why not?

Well, we've got the 'true love conquers all' thing from May and Bern? Despite their vast differences, so on, so on? That hasn't been destroyed. Yet.

Title: Re: Chapter 35: Discussion
Post by: L0g0s on January 17, 2013, 08:12:08 pm
See, told you Bern had the answer.  She and I work pretty similarly.  I believe there's a difference between legal and right.  And hence, illegal and wrong.  If I do something that I don't think was wrong, well, screw what anybody else things.  But if I do something wrong and know it, I don't back out.  Bern knew she needed to save her father, but also knew that what she was doing was ultimately wrong in regards to those other people.  So she stepped up to take her punishment.  We'll see how the whole Polly situation plays out.